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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:21 pm 
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In no particular order:
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Ricciardo
Verstappen

Does anyone actually not see these 5 as the top 5 drivers in F1 today? I'm NOT talking about how you compare them to each other. Just whether or not you think that one of them is not among the top 5. I ask because I think that this has almost become a consensus opinion.

If you disagree; please let us know who you would add to the list and who you would remove from it. Thanks.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:53 pm 
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It appears not :lol:

But seriously, yes its hard to name anybody else. Potentially Sainz or Ocon could join the club in the near future. I think we have seen enough of Perez and Hulk to conclude they aren't in the same bracket as the top guys.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:55 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In no particular order:
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Ricciardo
Verstappen

Does anyone actually not see these 5 as the top 5 drivers in F1 today? I'm NOT talking about how you compare them to each other. Just whether or not you think that one of them is not among the top 5. I ask because I think that this has almost become a consensus opinion.

If you disagree; please let us know who you would add to the list and who you would remove from it. Thanks.

Very much so.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:15 pm 
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Well I guess we can really shorten the options list in some of these polls then lol


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:54 am 
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Pretty much this.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:31 am 
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I think that top five is a fair reflection of how the grid stands right now. I have a feeling that Ocon will be good enough for a place on that list, but it's too early to give it to him. There's a few people who might be sixth, but I'd agree that all the remaining candidates are noticeably weaker than those five.

In all honesty - while I like Ricciardo and strongly dislike Verstappen - I think you could probably narrow it down to a top four, any one of which might be the best driver on the grid. Right now Ricciardo is looking very close to Max, but if they continue like this I'd feel comfortable putting Max ahead by the end of the season.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:48 am 
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OP managed to post a list of drivers dictated by who is considered the best that has (by the looks of it) pretty much complete consensus.
That's some forum jiu-jitsu right there people :)

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:33 am 
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wolfticket wrote:
OP managed to post a list of drivers dictated by who is considered the best that has (by the looks of it) pretty much complete consensus.
That's some forum jiu-jitsu right there people :)


Right, and for his next trick he will get univeral agreement on which of that 5 is actually the best :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:35 am 
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The way you know that list is probably correct is you figure these drivers will always beat anyone else they are paired with but you are most likely to be uncertain what will be the result when paired against each other with other factors becoming more important, e.g. car suitability, race events/strategy, tyres.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:44 am 
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I think one could argue that Vettel may be at the bottom of that Top Five, owed to his drubbing by Ricciardo in the latter's debut year for Red Bull.

But besides that, yes. That's your Top Five and all are likely to be pretty evenly matched.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Agreed like everyone else it seems.

Should we rank them or do you want to keep that sort of debate out of this thread sandman?


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Yeah they're the 5 for me anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:13 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
OP managed to post a list of drivers dictated by who is considered the best that has (by the looks of it) pretty much complete consensus.
That's some forum jiu-jitsu right there people :)

:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:16 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Agreed like everyone else it seems.

Should we rank them or do you want to keep that sort of debate out of this thread sandman?

Feel free to do so but I think this thread might turn into a mess if we start doing that.


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Agreed like everyone else it seems.

Should we rank them or do you want to keep that sort of debate out of this thread sandman?


Trouble maker


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:39 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Agreed like everyone else it seems.

Should we rank them or do you want to keep that sort of debate out of this thread sandman?

Feel free to do so but I think this thread might turn into a mess if we start doing that.

Yeah I agree.

kleefton wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Agreed like everyone else it seems.

Should we rank them or do you want to keep that sort of debate out of this thread sandman?


Trouble maker

:twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:44 pm 
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Hamilton's emotionally weak, inconsistent and overrated.

Alonso is too political, and people give him too much credit for average performances in poor cars.

Vettel's too slow and can only lead from the front. Needs a car built around him.

Ricciardo is getting outpaced by a child, and only mechanical issues is saving him from complete embarrassment.

Verstappen is stupid, aggressive, and a car wrecker.

#TeamChilton


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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:26 pm 
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Ennis wrote:
Hamilton's emotionally weak, inconsistent and overrated.

Alonso is too political, and people give him too much credit for average performances in poor cars.

Vettel's too slow and can only lead from the front. Needs a car built around him.

Ricciardo is getting outpaced by a child, and only mechanical issues is saving him from complete embarrassment.

Verstappen is stupid, aggressive, and a car wrecker.

#TeamChilton


You made my day. :lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:08 pm 
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sorry Alonso has gone from that list, he's now slipped into the realm of Raikonnen.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:31 pm 
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stevey wrote:
sorry Alonso has gone from that list, he's now slipped into the realm of Raikonnen.

Wow! So we have one person who disagrees!

I have to admit that I'm surprised you would single out Alonso for removal from this list. Who would you replace him with and exactly what makes you think he's not up to par with the other 4?


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:40 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
stevey wrote:
sorry Alonso has gone from that list, he's now slipped into the realm of Raikonnen.

Wow! So we have one person who disagrees!

I have to admit that I'm surprised you would single out Alonso for removal from this list. Who would you replace him with and exactly what makes you think he's not up to par with the other 4?

Yeah, remember you have to replace him with someone. Even if you don't consider him to be in the same realm as your top 4 you have to consider that someone else has to be best of the rest.
You think (as you mention him) Raikkonen is currently a better driver than Alonso?

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:11 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
stevey wrote:
sorry Alonso has gone from that list, he's now slipped into the realm of Raikonnen.

Wow! So we have one person who disagrees!

I have to admit that I'm surprised you would single out Alonso for removal from this list. Who would you replace him with and exactly what makes you think he's not up to par with the other 4?

Then it would be just a top 4.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Then it would be just a top 4.

You're not going to get much agreement on a top four that leaves Alonso out. Stevey had destroyed our consensus.

Or we could just agree that he's a crazy person, and add that to our consensus! :]

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:32 pm 
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It's hard to argue anything than this list right now. Hulk, Perez, Ocon, maybe Sainz are all really good but it would be a hard push to put them above any of those 5.


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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:35 pm 
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stevey wrote:
sorry Alonso has gone from that list, he's now slipped into the realm of Raikonnen.


Kimi maybe isn't even on the next 6-10 list though...

Last year I would have put Rosberg, Sainz, Hulkenberg, Perez, Bottas and probably Button too ahead of him.

With Rosberg and Button gone, he might sneak onto the bottom of it now at around a similar level to Bottas overall, but Bottas having higher peaks.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:51 pm 
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If you want to remove Alonso I think you could make a strong case for Bottas in at no.5 as Vettel usually only just shades him in qualy and he beat Massa as a teammate and is beating Kimi as a direct competitor and those two are an almost wdc and an actual wdc and can be both very quick on a good day for them. Personally though I would put Alonso at no.2 or 3 with only Hamilton and possibly Ricciardo now above him. I would give him the edge over Verstappen for racecraft and Vettel for speed.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:08 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Then it would be just a top 4.

You're not going to get much agreement on a top four that leaves Alonso out. Stevey had destroyed our consensus.

Or we could just agree that he's a crazy person, and add that to our consensus! :]

While not condemning them as crazy, I think it's fair to dismiss anyone that wants to remove someone but doesn't put forward a replacement. After all, you can't have a top 5 with 4 drivers in it :)

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Then it would be just a top 4.

You're not going to get much agreement on a top four that leaves Alonso out. Stevey had destroyed our consensus.

Or we could just agree that he's a crazy person, and add that to our consensus! :]

Indeed I was just saying the idea of the top 5 was that they are all a cut above the rest, if you remove one then it's a top 4.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:52 am 
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They are also ranked as the top 5 this year. Each driver is scored out of 10 each race and season averages created. These 5 of the top 5 in Autosport and Amus but Bottas is 4th and Max 6th with Skys ranking. Hamilton has now taken the lead as driver of the season in each publication. Vettel had previously lead it all year until recently, also worth noting that Vettel got a really low score for Baku and its dragged his average down a bit, without Baku he would be ahead of Hamilton in the Sky totals.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:36 am 
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lamo wrote:
stevey wrote:
sorry Alonso has gone from that list, he's now slipped into the realm of Raikonnen.


Kimi maybe isn't even on the next 6-10 list though...

Last year I would have put Rosberg, Sainz, Hulkenberg, Perez, Bottas and probably Button too ahead of him.

With Rosberg and Button gone, he might sneak onto the bottom of it now at around a similar level to Bottas overall, but Bottas having higher peaks.

I'd take Ocon over Raikkonen

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:48 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
In no particular order:
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Ricciardo
Verstappen

Does anyone actually not see these 5 as the top 5 drivers in F1 today? I'm NOT talking about how you compare them to each other. Just whether or not you think that one of them is not among the top 5. I ask because I think that this has almost become a consensus opinion.

If you disagree; please let us know who you would add to the list and who you would remove from it. Thanks.


To be fair, I rate drivers not only on their success but they gain extra prestige when they have a world class team mate.

Lewis in his first rookie season gave a double world champion a run for his money. Even if he had never succeeded after that - it's a pretty great thing to have under his belt. You may or may not like him but you know in a top 6 car - he can win. I would have liked a second year with their partnership because you can't fully base it on a single year.

Vettel/Ric/Max - I rate these drivers because they have been each others team mates. Ric did a great job when Vettel was having issues either reliability, luck or simply not doing a good enough job. Max has given a good fight to Ric but sadly this year has seen some horrid luck/reliability.

Alonso - I don't need to bother saying anything.

I'd like to see a Vettel/Ric/Max have Lewis/Alonso as a team mate. I think any team is lucky to have them and I would never put it past them to win in a top 6 car. BUT again I still think you need a proven talent to really see what they can do.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:08 am 
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So much depends on the car, how you can depend on it's grip and how easy it is to setup and drive, some drivers spend their whole career in low or midfield cars and have to adjust to being handicapped and some spend whole careers in top shelf cars.

So much of all of these discussions are resultdriven, and that makes it only about 2-4 drivers max per race, for the last years (2014-2016) only 2, last race only 1 had the equipment to win, so how do you rate that?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:58 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
In no particular order:
Hamilton
Alonso
Vettel
Ricciardo
Verstappen

Does anyone actually not see these 5 as the top 5 drivers in F1 today? I'm NOT talking about how you compare them to each other. Just whether or not you think that one of them is not among the top 5. I ask because I think that this has almost become a consensus opinion.

If you disagree; please let us know who you would add to the list and who you would remove from it. Thanks.


To be fair, I rate drivers not only on their success but they gain extra prestige when they have a world class team mate.

Lewis in his first rookie season gave a double world champion a run for his money. Even if he had never succeeded after that - it's a pretty great thing to have under his belt. You may or may not like him but you know in a top 6 car - he can win. I would have liked a second year with their partnership because you can't fully base it on a single year.

Vettel/Ric/Max - I rate these drivers because they have been each others team mates. Ric did a great job when Vettel was having issues either reliability, luck or simply not doing a good enough job. Max has given a good fight to Ric but sadly this year has seen some horrid luck/reliability.

Alonso - I don't need to bother saying anything.

I'd like to see a Vettel/Ric/Max have Lewis/Alonso as a team mate. I think any team is lucky to have them and I would never put it past them to win in a top 6 car. BUT again I still think you need a proven talent to really see what they can do.

This is a point I was making in another thread, to cement your legacy go up against the best in the same car, avoiding the best will always leave question marks.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:07 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
So much depends on the car, how you can depend on it's grip and how easy it is to setup and drive, some drivers spend their whole career in low or midfield cars and have to adjust to being handicapped and some spend whole careers in top shelf cars.

So much of all of these discussions are resultdriven, and that makes it only about 2-4 drivers max per race, for the last years (2014-2016) only 2, last race only 1 had the equipment to win, so how do you rate that?

There is a reason why some drivers have top cars and some are left in midfield cars and luck tends not to have that much to do with it.

Obviously a dig at Hamilton but look at the teammates he's had, Alonso, Button and Rosberg, all world champions, I think Rosberg showed his worth against Schumacher if you want to go down the dominant car route. Even Bottas who beat Massa 3 years on the trot, Massa was about 30 seconds away from being a world champion and he beat his world champion teammate Raikkonen.

Hamilton has shown himself to be better than all these drivers bar Alonso were it was very equal, Alonso proclaimed by many as the best driver of this generation, you think that Hamilton doesn't deserve to be in the top 5?

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:16 pm 
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I'd agree with that top 5 too, but there is always room for people to argue!

There's those who would argue Kimi in there and also those who would argue for the top 5 in the current WDC standings.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
So much depends on the car, how you can depend on it's grip and how easy it is to setup and drive, some drivers spend their whole career in low or midfield cars and have to adjust to being handicapped and some spend whole careers in top shelf cars.

So much of all of these discussions are resultdriven, and that makes it only about 2-4 drivers max per race, for the last years (2014-2016) only 2, last race only 1 had the equipment to win, so how do you rate that?

There is a reason why some drivers have top cars and some are left in midfield cars and luck tends not to have that much to do with it.

Obviously a dig at Hamilton but look at the teammates he's had, Alonso, Button and Rosberg, all world champions, I think Rosberg showed his worth against Schumacher if you want to go down the dominant car route. Even Bottas who beat Massa 3 years on the trot, Massa was about 30 seconds away from being a world champion and he beat his world champion teammate Raikkonen.

Hamilton has shown himself to be better than all these drivers bar Alonso were it was very equal, Alonso proclaimed by many as the best driver of this generation, you think that Hamilton doesn't deserve to be in the top 5?


So you believe that stepping in to the fastest car in 2007 or being pursuaded to join Mercedes in 2013 has nothing with luck to do at all?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:35 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
So much depends on the car, how you can depend on it's grip and how easy it is to setup and drive, some drivers spend their whole career in low or midfield cars and have to adjust to being handicapped and some spend whole careers in top shelf cars.

So much of all of these discussions are resultdriven, and that makes it only about 2-4 drivers max per race, for the last years (2014-2016) only 2, last race only 1 had the equipment to win, so how do you rate that?

There is a reason why some drivers have top cars and some are left in midfield cars and luck tends not to have that much to do with it.

Obviously a dig at Hamilton but look at the teammates he's had, Alonso, Button and Rosberg, all world champions, I think Rosberg showed his worth against Schumacher if you want to go down the dominant car route. Even Bottas who beat Massa 3 years on the trot, Massa was about 30 seconds away from being a world champion and he beat his world champion teammate Raikkonen.

Hamilton has shown himself to be better than all these drivers bar Alonso were it was very equal, Alonso proclaimed by many as the best driver of this generation, you think that Hamilton doesn't deserve to be in the top 5?


So you believe that stepping in to the fastest car in 2007 or being pursuaded to join Mercedes in 2013 has nothing with luck to do at all?


Risk. :)

People thought Hamilton was a maniac for leaving a quick, but slightly unreliable McLaren team for Mercedes who were nowhere at the time. Hamilton took the risk. He could have taken the safe option, and he'd still be sitting on 1 WDC.

There's an element of luck in every decision and in every race, but why did the team with the quickest car in 2007 put so much resource in to getting him in to F1? Why did Mercedes put so much time and resource in to persuading him to join their project?


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:37 pm 
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While I wouldn't dispute your list, it must be pointed out that I think it's probably unfair to judge drivers who have sub standard machinery to deal with, since it's clear that putting a driver into a good car can make a big difference to their performance (and let's be honest 'motivation').

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:11 pm 
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minchy wrote:
I'd agree with that top 5 too, but there is always room for people to argue!

There's those who would argue Kimi in there and also those who would argue for the top 5 in the current WDC standings.

I have to strongly disagree with this. This forum is way above the norm in terms of knowledge by comparison to most F1 fans. I doubt any of our regular visitors would claim that Raikkonen is currently one of the top 5 drivers in F1. Honestly it would be much easier to make a case that he is among the bottom 5.


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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:32 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
So much depends on the car, how you can depend on it's grip and how easy it is to setup and drive, some drivers spend their whole career in low or midfield cars and have to adjust to being handicapped and some spend whole careers in top shelf cars.

So much of all of these discussions are resultdriven, and that makes it only about 2-4 drivers max per race, for the last years (2014-2016) only 2, last race only 1 had the equipment to win, so how do you rate that?

There is a reason why some drivers have top cars and some are left in midfield cars and luck tends not to have that much to do with it.

Obviously a dig at Hamilton but look at the teammates he's had, Alonso, Button and Rosberg, all world champions, I think Rosberg showed his worth against Schumacher if you want to go down the dominant car route. Even Bottas who beat Massa 3 years on the trot, Massa was about 30 seconds away from being a world champion and he beat his world champion teammate Raikkonen.

Hamilton has shown himself to be better than all these drivers bar Alonso were it was very equal, Alonso proclaimed by many as the best driver of this generation, you think that Hamilton doesn't deserve to be in the top 5?


So you believe that stepping in to the fastest car in 2007 or being pursuaded to join Mercedes in 2013 has nothing with luck to do at all?

"Being persuaded" lol. So you don't even give him credit for making the decision?

The 2007 car was actually the second fastest (as was the 2008 car) and ultimately Lewis has never had it that easy. Even when the car was totally dominant, he always had a top driver in the other car to compete with for the titles. Look at the overall achievements of these guys' teammates and you will see that Hamilton has had the toughest teammates over the most seasons and has come out on top pretty consistently.

Vettel has had only one season with another top 5 driver and he lost out in both qualifying and the races. Alonso has been teamed with Hamilton for one year and Button for two but aside from that, he has had teammates who were not top-shelf. Dan has a valuable scalp in Vettel and he has been able to beat out Max over their time together (although this season the scoring is not very representative of their performance relative to each other) however losses to the likes of Vergne and Kvyat indicate that he perhaps raises/lowers his game based on who is in the other car.

In terms of the car, Hamilton and Vettel have had it best among these 5. Both have raced for 11 seasons and have had a car capable of winning races for at least 10 of them. In terms of having a title shot, Hamilton has had 7 cars that gave him at least a long-shot at the championship while Vettel has had 6. Alonso has had only 5 and I'd say that Dan and Max have had none yet. Vettel has the best conversion rate in terms of taking a legitimate title shot and turning it into a championship.

Everyone is very high on Dan and Max but they are all potential and are the only ones in this group who are not battle-tested in a WDC fight.


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