planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Aug 18, 2018 3:52 pm

All times are UTC


Forum rules


Please read the forum rules



Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:37 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
mds wrote:
No, it's just someone else making it up and enough people are repeating it, so it's becoming a "truth" accepted by a lot of people without any real basis for it.


I don't think we can disregard many people close to F1 repeating it as "without basis". We are never going to see his contract. Most likely, they are never going to see his contract either.

If his contract stipulates a veto on the other driver, then all we're ever going to get is hearsay from people close to F1. Those who have seen the contract will never speak publicly, and those who speak publicly will never see the contract. The guy who sees the contract will tell the guy who speaks publicly, and let him speak publicly.


For some reason I highly doubt:
1. that a lot of people even at Ferrari have seen the contract (and those that have, are the highest-ups and Vettel)
2. that one of those higher-ups, or Vettel, would tell journalists or external drivers what is in the contract

We can be quite certain that he never was a contractual #1 at RBR. Multi21 was good proof of that, and the TO's issued against him in 2014 and the overal equal treatment Ricciardo and Vettel received as well.

There's nothing to say he has it at Ferrari, but for (if I'm not mistaken) Hamilton saying it a few times and a host of people following suit.

Hamilton may know a bit more than what you think.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13154 ... his-career

What in there indicates he knows more than anyone else? Or even that he has the vaguest idea what's in Vettel's contract?

Vettel was in talks with Wolff, what did Vettel ask for?

Hamilton talks of drivers either after his seat or his teammates, Hamilton also recently said that he knows that Vettel doesn't want him as a teammate would that be knowledge from above, Vettel signs a 3 year contract with Ferrari, Hamilton says that makes his next contract much easier to decide knowing that any Ferrari option is now closed to him.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
While true, it doesn't mean that he has a term in his contract. Have you seen it? If not, then please stop presenting it as a fact. You only undermine your own posts by doing that

Both myself and the thread starter only bring this forward because of various rumours that eminate from the paddock, it's just not a simple case of trying to make things up.


The probability is that Brundle hasn't seen Vettel's brand new contract, neither we. It is all speculation; and while we can't just dismiss it (far stranger things have happened in F1), we can't just accept it as a fact either. It's just hearsay at the moment. And as you talked about history, remember that people were saying that Rubens had a No2 term in his contract as well, something that himself has denied.

If Rubens didn't why did he allow himself to be treated in such a way and let's not forget that he left the team, he wasn't sacked, and why was he so salty to Schumacher in later years, it all spoke of a driver that wasn't that happy.

You'd have to ask him. It is quite telling that you are not happy with the info from the horse's mouth, but are happy to accept any piece of info that comes from rumours around the paddock

I actually said if he didn't, you didn't actually prove a source.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
- Vettel demands & gets a contractual No. 1 status
- Vettel is a jerk who disobeys TOs when asked not to race his teammate ("multi" - Mark, "tough luck" - Ric)
- Vettel obeys TOs when asked to let the faster teammate pass (Ric)
- Vettel is a contractual No. 1 in Ferrari but got to actually race Kimi on track and pass him on merit (China '17)

Go figure. So much so for folks knowing what exactly is there in his contracts.

From the paddock it was said that Vettel's preferential status is in the pit stop strategies.

Yup, and from the paddock... "he just puts it in his contract".

As far as Ham, we don't need the paddock even. His boss Lauda, who still can't get over that Ham gave back those 3 points to Bottas, tells us all we needed to know?

Still you choose to ignore what Wolff said but then again he just works in the paddock and what does he know about how Ferrari are operating?

Wolff can say whatever he wants, but the truth we get from Lauda about Ham and Merc... oh, wait a moment... you chose to ignore that one? Ah well, never mind, good for you. We know what we needed to know.
(now back to you, tell us more about what the paddock tells you that Vettel "just puts it in his contract")

When did Lauda start to run the team?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:42 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.

Massa wasn't his lapdog either. Both ended up as number 2 drivers because they were destroyed by Alonso on track.

Some accept that treatment, some don't, this is Kimi that had to be offered an extended contract in 2008 in order to help Massa.

Edit: Kimi was never treated as a #2 alongside Alonso.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Last edited by pokerman on Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23219
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:

I don't think we can disregard many people close to F1 repeating it as "without basis". We are never going to see his contract. Most likely, they are never going to see his contract either.

If his contract stipulates a veto on the other driver, then all we're ever going to get is hearsay from people close to F1. Those who have seen the contract will never speak publicly, and those who speak publicly will never see the contract. The guy who sees the contract will tell the guy who speaks publicly, and let him speak publicly.


For some reason I highly doubt:
1. that a lot of people even at Ferrari have seen the contract (and those that have, are the highest-ups and Vettel)
2. that one of those higher-ups, or Vettel, would tell journalists or external drivers what is in the contract

We can be quite certain that he never was a contractual #1 at RBR. Multi21 was good proof of that, and the TO's issued against him in 2014 and the overal equal treatment Ricciardo and Vettel received as well.

There's nothing to say he has it at Ferrari, but for (if I'm not mistaken) Hamilton saying it a few times and a host of people following suit.

Hamilton may know a bit more than what you think.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13154 ... his-career

What in there indicates he knows more than anyone else? Or even that he has the vaguest idea what's in Vettel's contract?

Vettel was in talks with Wolff, what did Vettel ask for?

Hamilton talks of drivers either after his seat or his teammates, Hamilton also recently said that he knows that Vettel doesn't want him as a teammate would that be knowledge from above, Vettel signs a 3 year contract with Ferrari, Hamilton says that makes his next contract much easier to decide knowing that any Ferrari option is now closed to him.

I don't see anything in there that actually states Vettel had been in contact with Wolff, just a vague claim that Wolff tells Lewis whenever anybody has been. And it would be odd, would it not, since Wolff said recently that there had been no contractual discussions between Mercedes and Vettel?

And if they hadn't had talks, that puts into question just how accurate Hamilton's claims regarding Vettel's contract are...


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
I find it more suspicious that Toto and Lewis keeps talking about Vettels contract, makes me more suspicious that they are trying to cover up what Lewis has in his..
Comes out more of a "if I'm beaten this year again even if I have the fastest car and a #2 teammate it wont look good, better put the light somewhere else.."

Has Wolff said something about Vettel's contract?


http://dailyautosport.com/f1/2017/08/to ... th-vettel/
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... -extension

Interesting articles but they don't tie in with what you said.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I'm not convinced he deserves another contract, tbh, but it might suggest a number of things, or a combination thereof. It could be, for example, that they don't want two roosters in the hen house, as an ex-Ferrari employee once famously said. It could be that they want to give themselves some more options at the end of 2018, when a number of drivers will be out of contract. It could be that they think no-one around and available at this point in time is a worthwhile upgrade. What it doesn't necessarily mean is that Vettel has any part of it written into his contract

Well one things is for sure you don't know and I don't know but when you have several rumours that come from the paddock that's something to take note of, but of course certain things can be easily rubbished especially if you don't like what's being said.

Several rumours? Or one being repeated?

So the bigger the rumour the less the likelihood?

Would Ricciardo spreading rumours make him as uncivilised as me?

What's that question about? When did I say you're uncivilised?

I don't understand what you're trying to say here, sorry

No indeed it was just a generalisation.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
For some reason I highly doubt:
1. that a lot of people even at Ferrari have seen the contract (and those that have, are the highest-ups and Vettel)
2. that one of those higher-ups, or Vettel, would tell journalists or external drivers what is in the contract

We can be quite certain that he never was a contractual #1 at RBR. Multi21 was good proof of that, and the TO's issued against him in 2014 and the overal equal treatment Ricciardo and Vettel received as well.

There's nothing to say he has it at Ferrari, but for (if I'm not mistaken) Hamilton saying it a few times and a host of people following suit.

Hamilton may know a bit more than what you think.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13154 ... his-career

What in there indicates he knows more than anyone else? Or even that he has the vaguest idea what's in Vettel's contract?

Vettel was in talks with Wolff, what did Vettel ask for?

Hamilton talks of drivers either after his seat or his teammates, Hamilton also recently said that he knows that Vettel doesn't want him as a teammate would that be knowledge from above, Vettel signs a 3 year contract with Ferrari, Hamilton says that makes his next contract much easier to decide knowing that any Ferrari option is now closed to him.

I don't see anything in there that actually states Vettel had been in contact with Wolff, just a vague claim that Wolff tells Lewis whenever anybody has been. And it would be odd, would it not, since Wolff said recently that there had been no contractual discussions between Mercedes and Vettel?

And if they hadn't had talks, that puts into question just how accurate Hamilton's claims regarding Vettel's contract are...

The article chooses not to believe Wolff because Lauda said they had been in talks with Vettel up to June, that doesn't sound like a casual talk over coffee, it's clear to me that Hamilton mentions Vettel as one of the callers to Wolff.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:00 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:52 am
Posts: 161
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".



Blake, it really wasn't my intent...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate."

Other posters turned it into bashing but that clearly wasn't my intent. I started the topic by referencing a Danny Ric quote, Martin Brundle commentary and Lewis Hamilton's previous stance.

I wanted to open the floor on this, and ask for any knowledge or inside info.


The bash part could potentially be seen in this choice of the term "potential fear" that potentially implicitly stands vs. those other two main rivals of his, Alonso and Hamilton, as potentially not having such "potential fear". A choice of other wording such as "potential reasoning/preference" could potentially eliminate such since it would be not so potentially charged then. I mean, it would be but reasonable to any of them not to wish/want to have a fast teammate, no? Hamilton lost the title to his fast teammate Rosberg, and he arguably lost one title more due to his fast teammate Alonso taking points of him.



Wow Prema. Being partically an@l here. I dont post on these forums with agendas but want discussions.

Taking my word used "potential" rather than trying to understand what I'm trying to bring up in context/correlation to my topic discussion *face palm*

_________________
F1 Fan: 26 years and counting...
Grand Prixs Attended:
British x3 * Hungary * Italy * USA * Spain * Belgium


Grand Prixs on bucket list...
Canada * Mexico * Japan * Germany *


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:52 am
Posts: 161
telmernatorx wrote:
i dont know why people make a big deal about these things, every sportsman is selfish and has to be, particularly in an individual spot. vettel like anyone else in an advantageous position would do everything to load the dice in his favour. as any of you would. why would you put you reputation in jeopardy if you could avoid it?

schumacher did it with team mates, and even senna vetoed derrick warrick from being lotus team mate in 85 citing the team couldn't afford two top drivers. really? more like at that point in his career if senna lost to warrick then his stock falls dramatically in the eyes of other teams and warricks goes up. why did he do it? because his is a selfish sportsman. he wants to win the drivers championship, even at the expense of the team because what do people generally remember from season to season, the drivers champion, not the team.

its perfectly normal to take every advantage you can and anyone here who says they wouldn't is talking nonsense.

so why the surprise and why does anyone really care? so what if vettel wants an easier team mate if he can get one. when losing to anyone else would effect his stock and power within the paddock and reputation in eyes of other teams when they have a direct comparison between him and driver x, y or z?



Hi Telmernatorx,

I welcome your opinion on the topic rather than joining in on the bashing.

I fully appreciate your point of view.

I suppose what I wonder is if Vettel cares about what people think about him and his credibility/reputation in the long run?? People rate Alonso so very highly due to his great drives but also winning the WDC against a strong Schumacher (despite him being at a different team). It gave Alonso more weight in gold (so to speak) regarding rep and credibility.

Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).

Would this ultimately bother Seb do you reckon? Or would he not care and shove 2 fingers up saying, "well I have 4 WDCs and that should do all my talking in regards to how I rank in the all time drivers".??

_________________
F1 Fan: 26 years and counting...
Grand Prixs Attended:
British x3 * Hungary * Italy * USA * Spain * Belgium


Grand Prixs on bucket list...
Canada * Mexico * Japan * Germany *


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23219
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton may know a bit more than what you think.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13154 ... his-career

What in there indicates he knows more than anyone else? Or even that he has the vaguest idea what's in Vettel's contract?

Vettel was in talks with Wolff, what did Vettel ask for?

Hamilton talks of drivers either after his seat or his teammates, Hamilton also recently said that he knows that Vettel doesn't want him as a teammate would that be knowledge from above, Vettel signs a 3 year contract with Ferrari, Hamilton says that makes his next contract much easier to decide knowing that any Ferrari option is now closed to him.

I don't see anything in there that actually states Vettel had been in contact with Wolff, just a vague claim that Wolff tells Lewis whenever anybody has been. And it would be odd, would it not, since Wolff said recently that there had been no contractual discussions between Mercedes and Vettel?

And if they hadn't had talks, that puts into question just how accurate Hamilton's claims regarding Vettel's contract are...

The article chooses not to believe Wolff because Lauda said they had been in talks with Vettel up to June, that doesn't sound like a casual talk over coffee, it's clear to me that Hamilton mentions Vettel as one of the callers to Wolff.

So you're choosing to believe that Wolff is lying?

Assuming you are correct, it's still a big leap to go from telling Hamilton who has been in touch and divulging contract particulars, which are presumably shared in confidence, with him. Does this strike you as likely?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1821
olly-44 wrote:
telmernatorx wrote:
i dont know why people make a big deal about these things, every sportsman is selfish and has to be, particularly in an individual spot. vettel like anyone else in an advantageous position would do everything to load the dice in his favour. as any of you would. why would you put you reputation in jeopardy if you could avoid it?

schumacher did it with team mates, and even senna vetoed derrick warrick from being lotus team mate in 85 citing the team couldn't afford two top drivers. really? more like at that point in his career if senna lost to warrick then his stock falls dramatically in the eyes of other teams and warricks goes up. why did he do it? because his is a selfish sportsman. he wants to win the drivers championship, even at the expense of the team because what do people generally remember from season to season, the drivers champion, not the team.

its perfectly normal to take every advantage you can and anyone here who says they wouldn't is talking nonsense.

so why the surprise and why does anyone really care? so what if vettel wants an easier team mate if he can get one. when losing to anyone else would effect his stock and power within the paddock and reputation in eyes of other teams when they have a direct comparison between him and driver x, y or z?



Hi Telmernatorx,

I welcome your opinion on the topic rather than joining in on the bashing.

I fully appreciate your point of view.

I suppose what I wonder is if Vettel cares about what people think about him and his credibility/reputation in the long run?? People rate Alonso so very highly due to his great drives but also winning the WDC against a strong Schumacher (despite him being at a different team). It gave Alonso more weight in gold (so to speak) regarding rep and credibility.

Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).

Would this ultimately bother Seb do you reckon? Or would he not care and shove 2 fingers up saying, "well I have 4 WDCs and that should do all my talking in regards to how I rank in the all time drivers".??


I don't think he can control what other people think of him. Schumacher is a fantastic example, where despite him clearly being the guy to aim for from a stats perspective most people do not rate him as the best. Most people look to Senna or Prost as the most recent 'Greatest of All Time', with many going further back. Perhaps Schumacher just needs more time to pass before he'll be held in a different esteem?

Much of the Alonso legend comes from his time in inferior cars where he has won nothing. Much of the Hamilton legend comes from his incredible one lap pace, and an aggressive driving style (which has tamed somewhat, and again was as much a perception as anything else). I just don't think Vettel has that one thing that people can latch on to yet. I don't think there's even something tangible that he can do to change that, public perception is a strange thing.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:23 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Sep 18, 2008 8:56 pm
Posts: 864
Ennis wrote:
telmernatorx wrote:
i dont know why people make a big deal about these things, every sportsman is selfish and has to be, particularly in an individual spot. vettel like anyone else in an advantageous position would do everything to load the dice in his favour. as any of you would. why would you put you reputation in jeopardy if you could avoid it?

schumacher did it with team mates, and even senna vetoed derrick warrick from being lotus team mate in 85 citing the team couldn't afford two top drivers. really? more like at that point in his career if senna lost to warrick then his stock falls dramatically in the eyes of other teams and warricks goes up. why did he do it? because his is a selfish sportsman. he wants to win the drivers championship, even at the expense of the team because what do people generally remember from season to season, the drivers champion, not the team.

its perfectly normal to take every advantage you can and anyone here who says they wouldn't is talking nonsense.

so why the surprise and why does anyone really care? so what if vettel wants an easier team mate if he can get one. when losing to anyone else would effect his stock and power within the paddock and reputation in eyes of other teams when they have a direct comparison between him and driver x, y or z?


I'm with you on this. Different drivers have been accused of varying degrees of politics. Who cares? In any walk of life some people are better at networking, some are better at maneuvering things to their advantage..

I don't get why this is used as an attack on Vettel, and I don't get why people feel so strongly a need to defend him for something which isn't really wrong.


Perhaps because there is no indication that Vettel did anything of the sort (wrong or not). Other than vague hearsay without a source, repeated like it was a fact, there was nothing mentioned here to suggest that Vettel is a contractual #1 driver or that he vetoes teammates.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 29, 2013 3:22 pm
Posts: 1821
SmoothRide wrote:
Ennis wrote:
telmernatorx wrote:
i dont know why people make a big deal about these things, every sportsman is selfish and has to be, particularly in an individual spot. vettel like anyone else in an advantageous position would do everything to load the dice in his favour. as any of you would. why would you put you reputation in jeopardy if you could avoid it?

schumacher did it with team mates, and even senna vetoed derrick warrick from being lotus team mate in 85 citing the team couldn't afford two top drivers. really? more like at that point in his career if senna lost to warrick then his stock falls dramatically in the eyes of other teams and warricks goes up. why did he do it? because his is a selfish sportsman. he wants to win the drivers championship, even at the expense of the team because what do people generally remember from season to season, the drivers champion, not the team.

its perfectly normal to take every advantage you can and anyone here who says they wouldn't is talking nonsense.

so why the surprise and why does anyone really care? so what if vettel wants an easier team mate if he can get one. when losing to anyone else would effect his stock and power within the paddock and reputation in eyes of other teams when they have a direct comparison between him and driver x, y or z?


I'm with you on this. Different drivers have been accused of varying degrees of politics. Who cares? In any walk of life some people are better at networking, some are better at maneuvering things to their advantage..

I don't get why this is used as an attack on Vettel, and I don't get why people feel so strongly a need to defend him for something which isn't really wrong.


Perhaps because there is no indication that Vettel did anything of the sort (wrong or not). Other than vague hearsay without a source, repeated like it was a fact, there was nothing mentioned here to suggest that Vettel is a contractual #1 driver or that he vetoes teammates.


We're never going to get anything of this ilk as anything other than hearsay, unless one of us turn out being his lawyer in the near future. Even people saying this isn't the case is hearsay.

The paddock guys are much less likely to gossip than football writers, for example. People like Brundle are generally trustworthy sources (I don't always agree with his opinion, but he doesn't try to give his opinion as fact anyway). If there's enough paddock noise around something from the former drivers involved in the TV coverage, there tends to be a truth to it.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:38 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
olly-44 wrote:
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".



Blake, it really wasn't my intent...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate."

Other posters turned it into bashing but that clearly wasn't my intent. I started the topic by referencing a Danny Ric quote, Martin Brundle commentary and Lewis Hamilton's previous stance.

I wanted to open the floor on this, and ask for any knowledge or inside info.


The bash part could potentially be seen in this choice of the term "potential fear" that potentially implicitly stands vs. those other two main rivals of his, Alonso and Hamilton, as potentially not having such "potential fear". A choice of other wording such as "potential reasoning/preference" could potentially eliminate such since it would be not so potentially charged then. I mean, it would be but reasonable to any of them not to wish/want to have a fast teammate, no? Hamilton lost the title to his fast teammate Rosberg, and he arguably lost one title more due to his fast teammate Alonso taking points of him.



Wow Prema. Being partically an@l here. I dont post on these forums with agendas but want discussions.

Taking my word used "potential" rather than trying to understand what I'm trying to bring up in context/correlation to my topic discussion *face palm*


Wow 'olly-44'. Try first to understand what someone else is saying before you jump on them for not trying to understand what you are saying. And here, it ought not to be so difficult - it was the term 'potential fear' that I specifically pointed out as being potentially seen as a potential bashing part, and especially if it potentially standing in contrast to those other guys. Not the word 'potential' (never mind how many times it was used).

So try again.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Still you choose to ignore what Wolff said but then again he just works in the paddock and what does he know about how Ferrari are operating?

Wolff can say whatever he wants, but the truth we get from Lauda about Ham and Merc... oh, wait a moment... you chose to ignore that one? Ah well, never mind, good for you. We know what we needed to know.
(now back to you, tell us more about what the paddock tells you that Vettel "just puts it in his contract")

When did Lauda start to run the team?

Well, I just said that myself there up - you chose to ignore Lauda.
Guess, he does not belong to that "paddock" of yours, and what the hack does he know about how Mercedes are operating? :uhoh:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
What in there indicates he knows more than anyone else? Or even that he has the vaguest idea what's in Vettel's contract?

Vettel was in talks with Wolff, what did Vettel ask for?

Hamilton talks of drivers either after his seat or his teammates, Hamilton also recently said that he knows that Vettel doesn't want him as a teammate would that be knowledge from above, Vettel signs a 3 year contract with Ferrari, Hamilton says that makes his next contract much easier to decide knowing that any Ferrari option is now closed to him.

I don't see anything in there that actually states Vettel had been in contact with Wolff, just a vague claim that Wolff tells Lewis whenever anybody has been. And it would be odd, would it not, since Wolff said recently that there had been no contractual discussions between Mercedes and Vettel?

And if they hadn't had talks, that puts into question just how accurate Hamilton's claims regarding Vettel's contract are...

The article chooses not to believe Wolff because Lauda said they had been in talks with Vettel up to June, that doesn't sound like a casual talk over coffee, it's clear to me that Hamilton mentions Vettel as one of the callers to Wolff.

So you're choosing to believe that Wolff is lying?

Assuming you are correct, it's still a big leap to go from telling Hamilton who has been in touch and divulging contract particulars, which are presumably shared in confidence, with him. Does this strike you as likely?

Well it contradicts both Lauda and Hamilton.

What contract particulars does it divulge when no contract was signed?

Hamilton clearly says that Wolff is totally open with him about drivers contacting the team about a possible seat.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:57 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Still you choose to ignore what Wolff said but then again he just works in the paddock and what does he know about how Ferrari are operating?

Wolff can say whatever he wants, but the truth we get from Lauda about Ham and Merc... oh, wait a moment... you chose to ignore that one? Ah well, never mind, good for you. We know what we needed to know.
(now back to you, tell us more about what the paddock tells you that Vettel "just puts it in his contract")

When did Lauda start to run the team?

Well, I just said that myself there up - you chose to ignore Lauda.
Guess, he does not belong to that "paddock" of yours, and what the hack does he know about how Mercedes are operating? :uhoh:

Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:14 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Still you choose to ignore what Wolff said but then again he just works in the paddock and what does he know about how Ferrari are operating?

Wolff can say whatever he wants, but the truth we get from Lauda about Ham and Merc... oh, wait a moment... you chose to ignore that one? Ah well, never mind, good for you. We know what we needed to know.
(now back to you, tell us more about what the paddock tells you that Vettel "just puts it in his contract")

When did Lauda start to run the team?

Well, I just said that myself there up - you chose to ignore Lauda.
Guess, he does not belong to that "paddock" of yours, and what the hack does he know about how Mercedes are operating? :uhoh:

Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton clearly says that Wolff is totally open with him about drivers contacting the team about a possible seat.

Hamilton clearly likes to run his mouth wide about other drivers and their professional contracts and affairs, and surprise surprise Sebastian is being his favorite one.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9240
olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".



Blake, it really wasn't my intent...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate."

Other posters turned it into bashing but that clearly wasn't my intent. I started the topic by referencing a Danny Ric quote, Martin Brundle commentary and Lewis Hamilton's previous stance.

I wanted to open the floor on this, and ask for any knowledge or inside info.

:thumbup: Nothing against the topic itself, it could be a great discussion but I was just predicting how it would go down thanks to certain members :)

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Oct 06, 2006 12:07 pm
Posts: 9240
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

Yes indeed, some people perhaps need to invent reasons why their favourite driver is behind in the championship whilst driving the equal or even superior car?

The history of F1 shows that having no competition from your teammate is the best way to go about winning the WDC.

Whatever fantasies you come up with won't turn this season into some against the odds underdog situation for Hamilton.

Oh and history also shows that when the competition is strong having a teammate take points from the competition is the way to go, something I think Bottas is doing better than Kimi? Oh and Hamilton has benefited from more team orders than Vettel.

_________________
Räikkönen - Vettel - Bottas
Thank you Nico - You´re the champ!

PF1 Pick 10 Competition 2016: CHAMPION (2 wins, 8 podiums)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 23219
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel was in talks with Wolff, what did Vettel ask for?

Hamilton talks of drivers either after his seat or his teammates, Hamilton also recently said that he knows that Vettel doesn't want him as a teammate would that be knowledge from above, Vettel signs a 3 year contract with Ferrari, Hamilton says that makes his next contract much easier to decide knowing that any Ferrari option is now closed to him.

I don't see anything in there that actually states Vettel had been in contact with Wolff, just a vague claim that Wolff tells Lewis whenever anybody has been. And it would be odd, would it not, since Wolff said recently that there had been no contractual discussions between Mercedes and Vettel?

And if they hadn't had talks, that puts into question just how accurate Hamilton's claims regarding Vettel's contract are...

The article chooses not to believe Wolff because Lauda said they had been in talks with Vettel up to June, that doesn't sound like a casual talk over coffee, it's clear to me that Hamilton mentions Vettel as one of the callers to Wolff.

So you're choosing to believe that Wolff is lying?

Assuming you are correct, it's still a big leap to go from telling Hamilton who has been in touch and divulging contract particulars, which are presumably shared in confidence, with him. Does this strike you as likely?

Well it contradicts both Lauda and Hamilton.

What contract particulars does it divulge when no contract was signed?

Hamilton clearly says that Wolff is totally open with him about drivers contacting the team about a possible seat.

is a contract only confidential once it's signed? Either way, that doesn't make Wolff or Hamilton look good. Wolff for a) lying about whether there have been talks with Vettel, and b) for blabbing about confidential negotiation details with Hamilton; and Hamilton for subsequently discussing those confidential details with the world. I don't think your interpretation of events flatters either of them, particularly.

OTOH, if Wolff is telling the truth and no serious contract negotiations (bar a "what are your plans for next year" scenario) took place, then he wouldn't have been in a position to divulge sensitive information to Hamilton, which makes Hamilton's comments more likely to be simple posturing.

Either way, though, the article doesn't really indicate Hamilton has any special knowledge regarding Vettel.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:52 am
Posts: 161
olly-44 wrote:
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".



Blake, it really wasn't my intent...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate."

Other posters turned it into bashing but that clearly wasn't my intent. I started the topic by referencing a Danny Ric quote, Martin Brundle commentary and Lewis Hamilton's previous stance.

I wanted to open the floor on this, and ask for any knowledge or inside info.


The bash part could potentially be seen in this choice of the term "potential fear" that potentially implicitly stands vs. those other two main rivals of his, Alonso and Hamilton, as potentially not having such "potential fear". A choice of other wording such as "potential reasoning/preference" could potentially eliminate such since it would be not so potentially charged then. I mean, it would be but reasonable to any of them not to wish/want to have a fast teammate, no? Hamilton lost the title to his fast teammate Rosberg, and he arguably lost one title more due to his fast teammate Alonso taking points of him.



Wow Prema. Being partically an@l here. I dont post on these forums with agendas but want discussions.

Taking my word used "potential" rather than trying to understand what I'm trying to bring up in context/correlation to my topic discussion *face palm*


Wow 'olly-44'. Try first to understand what someone else is saying before you jump on them for not trying to understand what you are saying. And here, it ought not to be so difficult - it was the term 'potential fear' that I specifically pointed out as being potentially seen as a potential bashing part, and especially if it potentially standing in contrast to those other guys. Not the word 'potential' (never mind how many times it was used).

So try again.



Thanks for being condescending, it really helps discussion (the point of my original post - discussion, not bashing).

I quote myself in my original post...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality)".


I'd thought that someone who says "Try first to understand what someone else is saying before you jump on them for not trying to understand what you are saying" would use their own approach, and try and take it all words into consideration before jumping to an assumption.

I used the word "potential" - definition: "possible when the necessary conditions exist"... the necessary conditions were the quotes retrieved from Ric, Brundle and Hamilton. Again, to develop/start a DISCUSSION.

In no way was I inciting bashing Vettel as the caveat was very much clear Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not

I believe you Sir, and others in this forum it seems, found wiggle room to take it as bashing despite my clear attempt to not do so.

As Covalent said..."Nothing against the topic itself, it could be a great discussion but I was just predicting how it would go down thanks to certain members"

I repeat *face palm*.


Awaiting another picky, an@l, condescending response.

_________________
F1 Fan: 26 years and counting...
Grand Prixs Attended:
British x3 * Hungary * Italy * USA * Spain * Belgium


Grand Prixs on bucket list...
Canada * Mexico * Japan * Germany *


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:28 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Look pokerman, I have no idea which one of your many posts I would reply to about Vettel's supposed #1 status, but basically: there is no credible source, there's only hearsay. Which makes it unproven. Twist and turn as you may.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
olly-44 wrote:
Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).


Hamilton won two of his three titles in a car more dominant than Vettel ever had against a teammate that was also ultimately weaker. I don't think that would bother him, just like it won't bother Vettel.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:36 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
Ennis wrote:
It's not so difficult to believe that he has a veto on the 2nd driver (its also not difficult to believe that Alonso or Hamilton would do the same). Even beyond the contractual stuff, there is also the "just keep our favourite driver happy" element to it all.


Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6622
olly-44 wrote:
Thanks for being condescending, it really helps discussion (the point of my original post - discussion, not bashing).

I quote myself in my original post...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality)".


I'd thought that someone who says "Try first to understand what someone else is saying before you jump on them for not trying to understand what you are saying" would use their own approach, and try and take it all words into consideration before jumping to an assumption.

I used the word "potential" - definition: "possible when the necessary conditions exist"... the necessary conditions were the quotes retrieved from Ric, Brundle and Hamilton. Again, to develop/start a DISCUSSION.

In no way was I inciting bashing Vettel as the caveat was very much clear Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not

I believe you Sir, and others in this forum it seems, found wiggle room to take it as bashing despite my clear attempt to not do so.

As Covalent said..."Nothing against the topic itself, it could be a great discussion but I was just predicting how it would go down thanks to certain members"

I repeat *face palm*.


Awaiting another picky, an@l, condescending response.


You are very welcome. And your awaiting will be fulfilled as anticipated.

I said, try again. And I am saying it again, try again. Read again. Maybe it could help if you take that face of yours out of your palms so you actually could see that what is being actually written in the text that you are facepalming? I don't care about the dictionary definition of "potential" and your usage of that word. The word FEAR of fast teammates (be it potential or not) is the operative word here. You are projecting that one on Vettel, and taking it for granted. Maybe you can explain what that "fear" would exactly be, and how perhaps would it be different compared to Alonso and Hamilton, potentially speaking, of course? Here, I am providing you with the opportunity to start the damn discussion, and pointing out what potentially could be perceived as a bashing part if not cleared - I did not even accuse you of it!

So stop playing a sorrow victim here, that works but in the WH Oval Room nowadays.

(and write "anal" properly as it should be)
(and get the quoting in order, too)


Last edited by Prema on Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 5:52 am
Posts: 2589
I'm having a Taylor Swift moment: Talkers gonna talk, Rumours gonna spread... Drivers gonna drive.

_________________
Where I'm going, I don't need roads


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4732
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.


Not that I'm aware, do you know different?. If so share.

Again, source?.

More mind reading poker.

A source for what?

You never heard Alonso's constant criticism of Kimi or do you need a source for that?


A source that Alonso kicked up a fuss when Kim was signed to replace Massa.

And no, his pleasure in pointing out when he was beating him isn't a source for him kicking up a fuss at his signing, he does that with everyone, JB and Fisi who he got on with included. Alonso very much treats his team mates as his first rival and tries to assert himself over them, we know that. That doesn't mean he didn't want them there, he did it with Massa too after all.

If that counts then any time a driver celebrated beating a team mate or pointed it out when they had beat them then that meant we can say they had kicked up a fuss about their signing which is crazy.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Wolff can say whatever he wants, but the truth we get from Lauda about Ham and Merc... oh, wait a moment... you chose to ignore that one? Ah well, never mind, good for you. We know what we needed to know.
(now back to you, tell us more about what the paddock tells you that Vettel "just puts it in his contract")

When did Lauda start to run the team?

Well, I just said that myself there up - you chose to ignore Lauda.
Guess, he does not belong to that "paddock" of yours, and what the hack does he know about how Mercedes are operating? :uhoh:

Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton clearly says that Wolff is totally open with him about drivers contacting the team about a possible seat.

Hamilton clearly likes to run his mouth wide about other drivers and their professional contracts and affairs, and surprise surprise Sebastian is being his favorite one.

I admit Hamilton runs his mouth too much.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Covalent wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

Yes indeed, some people perhaps need to invent reasons why their favourite driver is behind in the championship whilst driving the equal or even superior car?

The history of F1 shows that having no competition from your teammate is the best way to go about winning the WDC.

Whatever fantasies you come up with won't turn this season into some against the odds underdog situation for Hamilton.

Oh and history also shows that when the competition is strong having a teammate take points from the competition is the way to go, something I think Bottas is doing better than Kimi? Oh and Hamilton has benefited from more team orders than Vettel.

A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Last edited by pokerman on Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
mds wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).


Hamilton won two of his three titles in a car more dominant than Vettel ever had against a teammate that was also ultimately weaker. I don't think that would bother him, just like it won't bother Vettel.

No it won't bother him but it's also true that the only time he came across what we might consider an A class teammate he got beat, will that be his legacy as he keeps beating the Kimi's of this world?

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:05 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's not so difficult to believe that he has a veto on the 2nd driver (its also not difficult to believe that Alonso or Hamilton would do the same). Even beyond the contractual stuff, there is also the "just keep our favourite driver happy" element to it all.


Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 26906
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.


Not that I'm aware, do you know different?. If so share.

Again, source?.

More mind reading poker.

A source for what?

You never heard Alonso's constant criticism of Kimi or do you need a source for that?


A source that Alonso kicked up a fuss when Kim was signed to replace Massa.

And no, his pleasure in pointing out when he was beating him isn't a source for him kicking up a fuss at his signing, he does that with everyone, JB and Fisi who he got on with included. Alonso very much treats his team mates as his first rival and tries to assert himself over them, we know that. That doesn't mean he didn't want them there, he did it with Massa too after all.

If that counts then any time a driver celebrated beating a team mate or pointed it out when they had beat them then that meant we can say they had kicked up a fuss about their signing which is crazy.

He constantly berated Kimi, we even heard it on his radio during the races.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: (5)


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:25 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 4732
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.


Not that I'm aware, do you know different?. If so share.

Again, source?.

More mind reading poker.

A source for what?

You never heard Alonso's constant criticism of Kimi or do you need a source for that?


A source that Alonso kicked up a fuss when Kim was signed to replace Massa.

And no, his pleasure in pointing out when he was beating him isn't a source for him kicking up a fuss at his signing, he does that with everyone, JB and Fisi who he got on with included. Alonso very much treats his team mates as his first rival and tries to assert himself over them, we know that. That doesn't mean he didn't want them there, he did it with Massa too after all.

If that counts then any time a driver celebrated beating a team mate or pointed it out when they had beat them then that meant we can say they had kicked up a fuss about their signing which is crazy.

He constantly berated Kimi, we even heard it on his radio during the races.


So?. Where's the source he kicked up a fuss over Kimi replacing Massa?.

You're only giving me examples of Alonso being a dick to his team mate when he's beating them which isn't new and he did to the man Kimi replaced as well.

That isn't kicking up a fuss over his arrival, that's bigging himself up to the world while trying to keep his team mate under his boot heel. Not a particularly likeable trait but it's done because he views his team mate as his first direct rival and to make clear to the team he's the best driver they've got.

Not because he doesn't want them there otherwise we can say that about every team mate he's had. Even Stoff got a "look where my team mate is" this year and they apparently get on very well.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Nov 27, 2013 11:13 am
Posts: 1508
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).


Hamilton won two of his three titles in a car more dominant than Vettel ever had against a teammate that was also ultimately weaker. I don't think that would bother him, just like it won't bother Vettel.

No it won't bother him but it's also true that the only time he came across what we might consider an A class teammate he got beat, will that be his legacy as he keeps beating the Kimi's of this world?


Lol the so called A class team mate is getting demolished right now, how about that?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:29 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2012 9:20 pm
Posts: 1804
pokerman wrote:
Edit: Kimi was never treated as a #2 alongside Alonso.

He was never in front of Alonso to be asked to move aside.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:31 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:07 am
Posts: 11411
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's not so difficult to believe that he has a veto on the 2nd driver (its also not difficult to believe that Alonso or Hamilton would do the same). Even beyond the contractual stuff, there is also the "just keep our favourite driver happy" element to it all.


Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.


Link please.

_________________
Go Vandoorne - Verstappen - Vettel!


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Altair, Google Adsense [Bot] and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group