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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).


Hamilton won two of his three titles in a car more dominant than Vettel ever had against a teammate that was also ultimately weaker. I don't think that would bother him, just like it won't bother Vettel.

No it won't bother him but it's also true that the only time he came across what we might consider an A class teammate he got beat, will that be his legacy as he keeps beating the Kimi's of this world?


You're asking what the legacy will be of one of the few drivers to ever obtain 4 WDC's. Man oh man.

Some people lose track of reality while petty arguing over who's the bestestest.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

No team would have asked Vettel to move aside at Hungary ffs.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:41 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

No team would have asked Vettel to move aside at Hungary ffs.


Furthermore, if they had ordered Kimi past that would have probably been a 1-3, so a worse team result. It's OK then, as I have learned, as that makes a big difference.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:39 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's not so difficult to believe that he has a veto on the 2nd driver (its also not difficult to believe that Alonso or Hamilton would do the same). Even beyond the contractual stuff, there is also the "just keep our favourite driver happy" element to it all.


Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.


Link please.

A link?
I would ask him for a bit of a common sense, to start with. Like, why Ferrari would "admit" to some reporter anything of a kind about their current driver's contract detail, even if it was true. And what "Alonso veto clause" would exactly be it in Vettel's 3-year contract with Ferrari when he came to replace Alonso who tiddled over Ferrari and went to sign his big 3-year contract with McLaren-Honda?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton clearly says that Wolff is totally open with him about drivers contacting the team about a possible seat.

Hamilton clearly likes to run his mouth wide about other drivers and their professional contracts and affairs, and surprise surprise Sebastian is being his favorite one.

I admit Hamilton runs his mouth too much.

And then you go and amplify that here, as the genuine source of your knowledge?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 7:12 am 
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What a dung heap this thread turned into. Not exactly a shock though.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:22 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Not that I'm aware, do you know different?. If so share.

Again, source?.

More mind reading poker.

A source for what?

You never heard Alonso's constant criticism of Kimi or do you need a source for that?


A source that Alonso kicked up a fuss when Kim was signed to replace Massa.

And no, his pleasure in pointing out when he was beating him isn't a source for him kicking up a fuss at his signing, he does that with everyone, JB and Fisi who he got on with included. Alonso very much treats his team mates as his first rival and tries to assert himself over them, we know that. That doesn't mean he didn't want them there, he did it with Massa too after all.

If that counts then any time a driver celebrated beating a team mate or pointed it out when they had beat them then that meant we can say they had kicked up a fuss about their signing which is crazy.

He constantly berated Kimi, we even heard it on his radio during the races.


So?. Where's the source he kicked up a fuss over Kimi replacing Massa?.

You're only giving me examples of Alonso being a dick to his team mate when he's beating them which isn't new and he did to the man Kimi replaced as well.

That isn't kicking up a fuss over his arrival, that's bigging himself up to the world while trying to keep his team mate under his boot heel. Not a particularly likeable trait but it's done because he views his team mate as his first direct rival and to make clear to the team he's the best driver they've got.

Not because he doesn't want them there otherwise we can say that about every team mate he's had. Even Stoff got a "look where my team mate is" this year and they apparently get on very well.

It's very hard to find sources, if you are not aware of the toxic atmosphere inside of Ferrari when Kimi arrived then it's hard for me to prove that, someone put forward an interview with Kimi but provided no source so again it's just hearsay, anyway it went something like this:-

Q. Kimi does it hurt you the way that Alonso attacks you at every race?

Kimi. No it doesn't hurt me but it hurts the team were we have two sides of the garage fighting against one another.

I'm surprised you are not aware at the level of abuse that Kimi received from Alonso and him patronising Ferrari's decision to bring Kimi to the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:23 am 
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Rockie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).


Hamilton won two of his three titles in a car more dominant than Vettel ever had against a teammate that was also ultimately weaker. I don't think that would bother him, just like it won't bother Vettel.

No it won't bother him but it's also true that the only time he came across what we might consider an A class teammate he got beat, will that be his legacy as he keeps beating the Kimi's of this world?


Lol the so called A class team mate is getting demolished right now, how about that?

Yes that's what can happen and Vettel is fully aware of this as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:24 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Edit: Kimi was never treated as a #2 alongside Alonso.

He was never in front of Alonso to be asked to move aside.

I'm sure he was, not often though.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:25 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's not so difficult to believe that he has a veto on the 2nd driver (its also not difficult to believe that Alonso or Hamilton would do the same). Even beyond the contractual stuff, there is also the "just keep our favourite driver happy" element to it all.


Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.


Link please.

It was posted on this forum

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:29 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Ennis wrote:
It's not so difficult to believe that he has a veto on the 2nd driver (its also not difficult to believe that Alonso or Hamilton would do the same). Even beyond the contractual stuff, there is also the "just keep our favourite driver happy" element to it all.


Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.


Link please.

It was posted on this forum


Great, then link me to the forum post.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:31 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Vettel won his 4 titles in a dominant Red Bull car against an ultimately weaker driver in Webber (yes, he was good but not great). And people talk about Alonso, Hamilton, Lauda, Senna, etc (who have all won less WDCs individually) in higher esteem (it seems amongst fans, media and fellow race drivers).


Hamilton won two of his three titles in a car more dominant than Vettel ever had against a teammate that was also ultimately weaker. I don't think that would bother him, just like it won't bother Vettel.

No it won't bother him but it's also true that the only time he came across what we might consider an A class teammate he got beat, will that be his legacy as he keeps beating the Kimi's of this world?


You're asking what the legacy will be of one of the few drivers to ever obtain 4 WDC's. Man oh man.

Some people lose track of reality while petty arguing over who's the bestestest.

Not by casuals no.

I was asked on here what I would think about Verstappen teaming up against Hamilton and I said if Hamilton beat Verstappen it would cement his legacy.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:32 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

No team would have asked Vettel to move aside at Hungary ffs.

Kimi only needed to be allowed the overcut in Hungary that Vettel was given in Monaco.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:34 am 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:35 am 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Hamilton clearly says that Wolff is totally open with him about drivers contacting the team about a possible seat.

Hamilton clearly likes to run his mouth wide about other drivers and their professional contracts and affairs, and surprise surprise Sebastian is being his favorite one.

I admit Hamilton runs his mouth too much.

And then you go and amplify that here, as the genuine source of your knowledge?

No I just meant that perhaps he should keep some things to himself.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

well, it meant people couldn't accuse him of being dishonest?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:18 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Honestly I think it's even more credible he has a contractual #1 status than that he has a teammate veto right. At Ferrari, Ferrari is boss. It would be very uncharacteristic that Ferrari let the driver decide on such things, it is the prime example of the team being bigger than the driver.

I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.


Link please.

It was posted on this forum


Great, then link me to the forum post.

It's actually in this very thread that I thought you was reading

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... -extension

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:20 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm sure I recently read an article on here from Sky TV that Ferrari have admitted that in Vettel's first contract he had an Alonso veto clause.


Link please.

It was posted on this forum


Great, then link me to the forum post.

It's actually in this very thread that I thought you was reading

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... -extension


Great source. Sky Sports "have been told".

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:20 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

well, it meant people couldn't accuse him of being dishonest?

But if is the proposed preferred driver why did such a deal have to be made in the first place?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:23 am 
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pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

No team would have asked Vettel to move aside at Hungary ffs.

Kimi only needed to be allowed the overcut in Hungary that Vettel was given in Monaco.


But that's ok because it ensures a 1-2 instead of a highly probable 1-3 team result. I mean this is what's being used to differentiate between Ferrari's and Mercedes' way of doing things, so that's ok, right?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A source for what?

You never heard Alonso's constant criticism of Kimi or do you need a source for that?


A source that Alonso kicked up a fuss when Kim was signed to replace Massa.

And no, his pleasure in pointing out when he was beating him isn't a source for him kicking up a fuss at his signing, he does that with everyone, JB and Fisi who he got on with included. Alonso very much treats his team mates as his first rival and tries to assert himself over them, we know that. That doesn't mean he didn't want them there, he did it with Massa too after all.

If that counts then any time a driver celebrated beating a team mate or pointed it out when they had beat them then that meant we can say they had kicked up a fuss about their signing which is crazy.

He constantly berated Kimi, we even heard it on his radio during the races.


So?. Where's the source he kicked up a fuss over Kimi replacing Massa?.

You're only giving me examples of Alonso being a dick to his team mate when he's beating them which isn't new and he did to the man Kimi replaced as well.

That isn't kicking up a fuss over his arrival, that's bigging himself up to the world while trying to keep his team mate under his boot heel. Not a particularly likeable trait but it's done because he views his team mate as his first direct rival and to make clear to the team he's the best driver they've got.

Not because he doesn't want them there otherwise we can say that about every team mate he's had. Even Stoff got a "look where my team mate is" this year and they apparently get on very well.

It's very hard to find sources, if you are not aware of the toxic atmosphere inside of Ferrari when Kimi arrived then it's hard for me to prove that, someone put forward an interview with Kimi but provided no source so again it's just hearsay, anyway it went something like this:-

Q. Kimi does it hurt you the way that Alonso attacks you at every race?

Kimi. No it doesn't hurt me but it hurts the team were we have two sides of the garage fighting against one another.

I'm surprised you are not aware at the level of abuse that Kimi received from Alonso and him patronising Ferrari's decision to bring Kimi to the team.


We're talking about him kicking up a fuss about the decision to replace Massa with Kimi so the patronising would be interesting to read at least. It would genuinely be news to me or I wouldn't have said it in the first place. I did a quick search myself and found one article with one sentence from an unnamed prominent team principal who allegedly said.... "Have you seen Fernando? He is very unhappy at the prospect of Kimi joining the team."

That's it.

As for the toxic atmosphere things didn't really get sour until Mattiacci came in,LdM got ousted and Botin died, which was well after the decision to hire Kimi. And he's always enjoyed rubbing his team mates nose in it when he beats them convincingly as I've already said.

So yeah I wanted to see some sources specifically about kicking up a fuss about Kimi coming in, what's wrong with that?.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:25 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Link please.

It was posted on this forum


Great, then link me to the forum post.

It's actually in this very thread that I thought you was reading

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... -extension


Great source. Sky Sports "have been told".

I guess they were told by the man on the moon?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:

Great source. Sky Sports "have been told".

I guess they were told by the man on the moon?

Well, that's what the phrase "have been told" approximately does mean. Ok, it could be Mars too. Many people are saying it, good people btw, believe me.


Last edited by Prema on Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:38 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:37 am 
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed but even with Kimi's poor driving he's been given another contract so what does that say?


Why don't you tell us, poker. After all, it is you who have practically claimed to know what is in Vettel's contract and appear to think you are a pit road insider allowing you to post rumors as though they are proven facts.


From Joe Saward (https://joesaward.wordpress.com), who it may be reasonable to describe as a pit road insider: "Scuderia Ferrari has re-signed Kimi Raikkonen for 2018 and while the Finn’s fans think this is just peachy, others have concluded that this reveals a lot about how Ferrari thinks and works. What it tells us most of all is that Ferrari wanted to keep Sebastian Vettel happy. It took a few days after the Raikkonen announcement but then came confirmation that Vettel would be staying on. In other words, the first announcement triggered the second. What Vettel wanted – and has got – is to have a team-mate who does not give him too much trouble, just as his hero Michael Schumacher did in the old days, when Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello and Felipe Massa were all expected to play second fiddle to the number one violinist. Vettel has shown in the past that he gets a bit wobbly when he is under pressure (as did Schumacher) and that it is best for him to know that he can beat his team-mate, or that the team-mate will do what the team tells him to do, as Raikkonen has shown himself willing to do. Being a compliant number two driver can be a lucrative career move for a driver who is past his best or not quite there. From Vettel’s point of view, it is best to have Kimi than an aggressive young lion, who wants to get to the top of the F1 tree.

"The fact remains that Raikkonen has underperformed significantly in recent years – and the numbers are interesting in this respect. In 2014, against Fernando Alonso, he scored only 55 points to Alonso’s 161. Vettel joined Ferrari in 2015 and scored 278 points, compared to Kimi’s 150, a moderate improvement. In 2016 Vettel collected 212 points and Kimi managed 186, which was much better, but this year it has been downhill again with Vettel’s 220, making Kimi’s 128 look rather anaemic. Kimi has not won a race since the start of 2013, while his team-mates have collected seven victories between them."


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:41 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It was posted on this forum


Great, then link me to the forum post.

It's actually in this very thread that I thought you was reading

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... -extension


Great source. Sky Sports "have been told".

I guess they were told by the man on the moon?


They might as well be pulling it out of where the sun doesn't shine.

The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I admit Hamilton runs his mouth too much.

And then you go and amplify that here, as the genuine source of your knowledge?

No I just meant that perhaps he should keep some things to himself.

Good advice since we have no mean of determining what is truth and what a fiction coming out of his mouth. Particularly so knowing Hamilton being a proven liar (Jarno Trulli case) he may lie or twist the truth with his face straight.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:54 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

It didn't on the end, hence Lauda coming out saying that he knows what to do. That is what the difference between being just "preferred" driver and a full flagged No. 1 is to mean. That was good example, pokerman. No more attempting "deals" like that, but just have Bottas move away, period. And again, we'll have the opportunity to see itor not to see.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

No team would have asked Vettel to move aside at Hungary ffs.

Kimi only needed to be allowed the overcut in Hungary that Vettel was given in Monaco.

Again, why on earth would Ferrari do that?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Let's try this again, Lauda thinks that Hamilton should be the #1 driver but he has no say in implementing this.

He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

Because it means Bottas is more likely to be compliant if a situation arises where it would be advantageous for Bottas to move out of the way.

Hamilton was playing the long game at Hungary.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

well, it meant people couldn't accuse him of being dishonest?

But if is the proposed preferred driver why did such a deal have to be made in the first place?

ah, but that's one step further back from simply giving it back. For Bottas to have been ordered to give up the place would have been beyond preferred and would have been an indication of official number one status for Hamilton. To date, for example, Kimi has not yet been ordered out of the way...


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:39 pm 
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quere wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Indeed but even with Kimi's poor driving he's been given another contract so what does that say?


Why don't you tell us, poker. After all, it is you who have practically claimed to know what is in Vettel's contract and appear to think you are a pit road insider allowing you to post rumors as though they are proven facts.


From Joe Saward (https://joesaward.wordpress.com), who it may be reasonable to describe as a pit road insider: "Scuderia Ferrari has re-signed Kimi Raikkonen for 2018 and while the Finn’s fans think this is just peachy, others have concluded that this reveals a lot about how Ferrari thinks and works. What it tells us most of all is that Ferrari wanted to keep Sebastian Vettel happy. It took a few days after the Raikkonen announcement but then came confirmation that Vettel would be staying on. In other words, the first announcement triggered the second. What Vettel wanted – and has got – is to have a team-mate who does not give him too much trouble, just as his hero Michael Schumacher did in the old days, when Eddie Irvine, Rubens Barrichello and Felipe Massa were all expected to play second fiddle to the number one violinist. Vettel has shown in the past that he gets a bit wobbly when he is under pressure (as did Schumacher) and that it is best for him to know that he can beat his team-mate, or that the team-mate will do what the team tells him to do, as Raikkonen has shown himself willing to do. Being a compliant number two driver can be a lucrative career move for a driver who is past his best or not quite there. From Vettel’s point of view, it is best to have Kimi than an aggressive young lion, who wants to get to the top of the F1 tree.

"The fact remains that Raikkonen has underperformed significantly in recent years – and the numbers are interesting in this respect. In 2014, against Fernando Alonso, he scored only 55 points to Alonso’s 161. Vettel joined Ferrari in 2015 and scored 278 points, compared to Kimi’s 150, a moderate improvement. In 2016 Vettel collected 212 points and Kimi managed 186, which was much better, but this year it has been downhill again with Vettel’s 220, making Kimi’s 128 look rather anaemic. Kimi has not won a race since the start of 2013, while his team-mates have collected seven victories between them."

That's hearsay I say, burn him.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:43 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:

Great, then link me to the forum post.

It's actually in this very thread that I thought you was reading

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12472/ ... -extension


Great source. Sky Sports "have been told".

I guess they were told by the man on the moon?


They might as well be pulling it out of where the sun doesn't shine.

The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

Sky have no credibility, some sources get kept secret you know, they could have said someone from inside Ferrari but that still wouldn't suffice unless they actually named the person.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:46 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I admit Hamilton runs his mouth too much.

And then you go and amplify that here, as the genuine source of your knowledge?

No I just meant that perhaps he should keep some things to himself.

Good advice since we have no mean of determining what is truth and what a fiction coming out of his mouth. Particularly so knowing Hamilton being a proven liar (Jarno Trulli case) he may lie or twist the truth with his face straight.

No I didn't mean that either, if you are told something in confidence then maybe you should keep it to yourself, I see you have quite a low opinion of him calling him a flat out liar and bringing up something 8 years ago when he was told to lie.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:48 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

It didn't on the end, hence Lauda coming out saying that he knows what to do. That is what the difference between being just "preferred" driver and a full flagged No. 1 is to mean. That was good example, pokerman. No more attempting "deals" like that, but just have Bottas move away, period. And again, we'll have the opportunity to see itor not to see.

Lauda doesn't have that kind of power, he may bark but he doesn't bite, you have nothing to go on but keep trying.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:50 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
A team order that enabled Mercedes to win a race they otherwise were not going to win, meanwhile whilst running 1-2 in both Monaco and Hungary, Ferrari decided who was going to win.

No team would have asked Vettel to move aside at Hungary ffs.

Kimi only needed to be allowed the overcut in Hungary that Vettel was given in Monaco.

Again, why on earth would Ferrari do that?

They did it in Monaco, am I missing something here, I said they wanted Vettel to win both times.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:51 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
He may not be Wolff, granted, but Lauda is still not Mr. Nobody as you seam to be depicting him? At least he does reveal the truth. And that one being that "no preferred drivers" in Merc is but a PR bs at those times when the title is not at stake. In this season's half, Ham has obviously been the preferred driver, and whether they will go full No. 1 , we will have the opportunity to find out in the remaining races.

In any case, it is just same stuff as with Ferrari and Vettel. You don't have a high horse to ride here exactly.

How do you read Lauda saying that Hamilton needs to be the preferred driver as Hamilton has been the preferred driver thus far?

I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

Because it means Bottas is more likely to be compliant if a situation arises where it would be advantageous for Bottas to move out of the way.

Hamilton was playing the long game at Hungary.

Still how did that make Hamilton the preferred driver when he did as he was instructed to do?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 11:57 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
I was making a distinction between "preferred" and "full No.1". A "preferred driver" where Bottas is being helpful to Ham in situations and the team is primary focusing on Ham, while the image of "equal" racing is being still maintained somehow. And "full No. 1" when such a PR becomes traded for hard WDC points and Bottas is openly a No. 2 driver.

And expect same in Ferrari. The glows are going off that closer to the finale.

How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

well, it meant people couldn't accuse him of being dishonest?

But if is the proposed preferred driver why did such a deal have to be made in the first place?

ah, but that's one step further back from simply giving it back. For Bottas to have been ordered to give up the place would have been beyond preferred and would have been an indication of official number one status for Hamilton. To date, for example, Kimi has not yet been ordered out of the way...

They get Kimi out of the way in the pit stops and then he stays out of the way.

Ricciardo did the same with Kvyat in Monaco and then later gave the place back, Ricciardo was never the preferred driver he even finished behind Kvyat in the WDC.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 1:03 am 
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mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:15 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I just meant that perhaps he should keep some things to himself.

Good advice since we have no mean of determining what is truth and what a fiction coming out of his mouth. Particularly so knowing Hamilton being a proven liar (Jarno Trulli case) he may lie or twist the truth with his face straight.

No I didn't mean that either, if you are told something in confidence then maybe you should keep it to yourself, I see you have quite a low opinion of him calling him a flat out liar and bringing up something 8 years ago when he was told to lie.


Oh, I know you didn't mean that, but I though it still be a good advice out of the said reason too. And "8 years ago", it is but a testimony to the fact of Hamilton being perfectly able of flatly lying when it serves his interests even if that meant misfortune to someone else. Characters of people do not change just like that because some years pass.

You apparently take it for granted that every time Mr. Hamilton runs his mouth wide about other people, he speaks but the truth and discloses the correct info (but hack, he better he does not since it might be a betrayal of trust if the info received in confidence?). I, oth, am just not that blindly trustful. Ham is a great racer, but there it stops for me. The dude is not my role model exactly. I take it that he may sometimes tell the truth and sometimes twist it and sometimes even simply fabricate something. So yes, I am happy if you call that "quite a low opinion" of Hamilton if that makes your day and if that helps you in upholding your belief in him.


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