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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:43 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Preferred driver and #1 driver is the same thing, a preferred driver doesn't give up his position to his teammate.

You got it back-foot. It's not about "preferred" driver giving up his position, regardless of. But that other driver giving up his position to him, and the manner how that is being achieved.
Example, Monaco this year. The team facilitated their WDC hope Vettel with the opportunity to over-cut Kimi (which they might have not done in a reverse situation). But Vettel had to work his donkey of and deliver or otherwise it was not to work. He actually raced Kimi, and managed to produce that 1 sec or so gap. And Kimi raced hard too, he did nor simply dutifully give up his position to Vettel as No. 2 would have to.

That doesn't dictate that one driver is preferred this happens in teams from time to time, everyone agrees that Perez should have let Ocon by in Canada, that wouldn't have made Ocon the preferred driver.

Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.

Well, then you just gave the example yourself (while arguing against it at the same time): not letting one driver do to other driver that what they let that other drive do to him.
Anyway, if you can't see anything else but either 0% or 100% and nothing in between, we got to leave it at that.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:46 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Well Exediron, it "could", and it "couldn't". The main point is that it isn't dependable. That means they might as well leave it out altogether - the only thing this can serve is a self-serving "we told you so" some time later when an actual source comes forward. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.


I repeat again: apparently that's OK for a team to do, because it served to protected the team 1-2 instead of a 1-3 they would have most likely got if they had Raikkonen overcut Vettel.

That's what Mercedes/Hamilton fans use to differentiate Mercedes' and Ferrari's way of handling strategies, so it counts here too. Right?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:24 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.


I repeat again: apparently that's OK for a team to do, because it served to protected the team 1-2 instead of a 1-3 they would have most likely got if they had Raikkonen overcut Vettel.

Frankly, I can't see the logic. Vettel as the lead car dictating the pace to both himself and Kimi and there was no way for Hamilton to actually attack not to speak of overtaking Kimi on that circuit. What a difference would it be there if Kimi performed over-cut and pulled ahead and Vettel dictating a pace only to himself?

How does it exactly help more to protect 1-2 by keeping both cars at a lower pace towards the challenger from behind, instead of having only one? That's normally rather a strategy used to back up your teammate into someone's cloches, like Ham tried to back Ros last year into Vettel in the very last race, no?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 7:45 am 
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Prema wrote:
How does it exactly help more to protect 1-2 by keeping both cars at a lower pace towards the challenger from behind, instead of having only one? That's normally rather a strategy used to back up your teammate into someone's cloches, like Ham tried to back Ros last year into Vettel in the very last race, no?


More dirty air for Hamilton, and a properly functioning and DRS'ing Ferrari defending against a Mercedes instead of a DRS-less limping Ferrari. It does make a difference.

It does pose more risk for the second car, that much is sure, but it stands a chance for a defense and a better one than leaving the limping car to go at it all by itself. In this case it worked.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 8:59 am 
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mds wrote:
Prema wrote:
How does it exactly help more to protect 1-2 by keeping both cars at a lower pace towards the challenger from behind, instead of having only one? That's normally rather a strategy used to back up your teammate into someone's cloches, like Ham tried to back Ros last year into Vettel in the very last race, no?


More dirty air for Hamilton, and a properly functioning and DRS'ing Ferrari defending against a Mercedes instead of a DRS-less limping Ferrari. It does make a difference.

It does pose more risk for the second car, that much is sure, but it stands a chance for a defense and a better one than leaving the limping car to go at it all by itself. In this case it worked.


I wasn't aware Vettel was DRS-less. And how about the faster Ferrari giving a help to slower one with a slipstream?
Anyway, one could go twisting it this or that way, just like with Monaco's over-cut.
Imo, Ferrari was more prepared to risk Kimi's second place to Ham than lose Vettel's P1 to Kimi. Their chances to win WCC are zero, but they were leading in WDC since the start. That was their priority, and still is.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:06 am 
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Prema wrote:
I wasn't aware Vettel was DRS-less. And how about the faster Ferrari giving a help to slower one with a slipstream?
Anyway, one could go twisting it this or that way, just like with Monaco's over-cut.
Imo, Ferrari was more prepared to risk Kimi's second place to Ham than lose Vettel's P1 to Kimi. Their chances to win WCC are zero, but they were leading in WDC since the start. That was their priority, and still is.


Bit in bold: well, he would have been had Raikkonen overcut him and had gotten further up the road. It would have probably been a very tough task to tow Vettel around in DRS range for the remainder of the race, especially since Raikkonen would have had to constantly get a feel of how fast Vettel would be able to make it through the turns.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:31 am 
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Lojik wrote:
What a dung heap this thread turned into. Not exactly a shock though.
Quite an apt thread title, in hindsight. Debate centred on Vettel, several posts full of Number 2s.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 10:40 am 
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tootsie323 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
What a dung heap this thread turned into. Not exactly a shock though.
Quite an apt thread title, in hindsight. Debate centred on Vettel, several posts full of Number 2s.


I know right?

I've lost interest in my own topic.

I specifically stated that this topic wasn't for bashing or whether Vettel was good, blah blah blah...it went off topic quick and I've given up on attempts to bring it back round now...

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:13 am 
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olly-44 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
What a dung heap this thread turned into. Not exactly a shock though.
Quite an apt thread title, in hindsight. Debate centred on Vettel, several posts full of Number 2s.


I know right?

I've lost interest in my own topic.

I specifically stated that this topic wasn't for bashing or whether Vettel was good, blah blah blah...it went off topic quick and I've given up on attempts to bring it back round now...


- Vettel fearing a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed
- everyone in paddocks may believe this too
- Vettel looking like a x4 paper WDC
- titles not fully deserved due to a preferential status

Dude, your "no_bashing_or_whatever" ship with you as her captain standing on the shores watching her sailing away that very moment you specified the above non_bashing_or_whatever points of "discussion", was the predestined course. Sad.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 11:51 am 
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Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
What a dung heap this thread turned into. Not exactly a shock though.
Quite an apt thread title, in hindsight. Debate centred on Vettel, several posts full of Number 2s.


I know right?

I've lost interest in my own topic.

I specifically stated that this topic wasn't for bashing or whether Vettel was good, blah blah blah...it went off topic quick and I've given up on attempts to bring it back round now...


- Vettel fearing a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed
- everyone in paddocks may believe this too
- Vettel looking like a x4 paper WDC
- titles not fully deserved due to a preferential status

Dude, your "no_bashing_or_whatever" ship with you as her captain standing on the shores watching her sailing away that very moment you specified the above non_bashing_or_whatever points of "discussion", was the predestined course. Sad.


:thumbup:

Exactly. From the original post, this was destined to turn out "ugly". Our OP may think that he wanted this to be just a "discussion" with no bashing, but his own phasing was in effect a bash itself and paved the way for what followed. Of course can anyone really believe that a thread titled "Vettel & Number 2s" was going to end up any other way than it has?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Preferred driver and #1 driver is the same thing, a preferred driver doesn't give up his position to his teammate.

You got it back-foot. It's not about "preferred" driver giving up his position, regardless of. But that other driver giving up his position to him, and the manner how that is being achieved.
Example, Monaco this year. The team facilitated their WDC hope Vettel with the opportunity to over-cut Kimi (which they might have not done in a reverse situation). But Vettel had to work his donkey of and deliver or otherwise it was not to work. He actually raced Kimi, and managed to produce that 1 sec or so gap. And Kimi raced hard too, he did nor simply dutifully give up his position to Vettel as No. 2 would have to.

That doesn't dictate that one driver is preferred this happens in teams from time to time, everyone agrees that Perez should have let Ocon by in Canada, that wouldn't have made Ocon the preferred driver.

Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.

Well, then you just gave the example yourself (while arguing against it at the same time): not letting one driver do to other driver that what they let that other drive do to him.
Anyway, if you can't see anything else but either 0% or 100% and nothing in between, we got to leave it at that.

There is yet to be an example of Hamilton being slower than Bottas whilst running in front of him.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:29 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.


I repeat again: apparently that's OK for a team to do, because it served to protected the team 1-2 instead of a 1-3 they would have most likely got if they had Raikkonen overcut Vettel.

That's what Mercedes/Hamilton fans use to differentiate Mercedes' and Ferrari's way of handling strategies, so it counts here too. Right?

Why do you think that Hamilton would have got past Vettel when apparently Kimi, who was much faster than Hamilton, was unable to pass Vettel?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:34 pm 
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mds wrote:
Prema wrote:
How does it exactly help more to protect 1-2 by keeping both cars at a lower pace towards the challenger from behind, instead of having only one? That's normally rather a strategy used to back up your teammate into someone's cloches, like Ham tried to back Ros last year into Vettel in the very last race, no?


More dirty air for Hamilton, and a properly functioning and DRS'ing Ferrari defending against a Mercedes instead of a DRS-less limping Ferrari. It does make a difference.

It does pose more risk for the second car, that much is sure, but it stands a chance for a defense and a better one than leaving the limping car to go at it all by itself. In this case it worked.

Vettel could have DRS'd Kimi, with Kimi given the task of keeping the Ferrari's out of harms way, Hamilton may well have never caught up in the first place and even then without a DRS advantage I'm told it's not possible to pass, I mean Kimi couldn't even pass Vettel with the advantage of DRS.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.

Well, then you just gave the example yourself (while arguing against it at the same time): not letting one driver do to other driver that what they let that other drive do to him.
Anyway, if you can't see anything else but either 0% or 100% and nothing in between, we got to leave it at that.

There is yet to be an example of Hamilton being slower than Bottas whilst running in front of him.


That was but one example of what "preferred" yet not "full No.1" driver may be. You argued that there was no difference in between the two, remember?
Now you have simply reacted "but not Hamilton"... a kind of a 'Pavlov reflex'?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:52 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.

Well, then you just gave the example yourself (while arguing against it at the same time): not letting one driver do to other driver that what they let that other drive do to him.
Anyway, if you can't see anything else but either 0% or 100% and nothing in between, we got to leave it at that.

There is yet to be an example of Hamilton being slower than Bottas whilst running in front of him.


That was but one example of what "preferred" yet not "full No.1" driver may be. You argued that there was no difference in between the two, remember?
Now you have simply reacted "but not Hamilton"... a kind of a 'Pavlov reflex'?

Preferred would mean that if the situations were reversed and Bottas was being held up by Hamilton and not allowed to chase after the next car in front then we can say that Hamilton is the preferred driver.

However having said that going forward if that happens in the near future that might be more of a case of Mercedes believing that Bottas is out of the title race.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:27 pm 
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Blake wrote:
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Lojik wrote:
What a dung heap this thread turned into. Not exactly a shock though.
Quite an apt thread title, in hindsight. Debate centred on Vettel, several posts full of Number 2s.


I know right?

I've lost interest in my own topic.

I specifically stated that this topic wasn't for bashing or whether Vettel was good, blah blah blah...it went off topic quick and I've given up on attempts to bring it back round now...


- Vettel fearing a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed
- everyone in paddocks may believe this too
- Vettel looking like a x4 paper WDC
- titles not fully deserved due to a preferential status

Dude, your "no_bashing_or_whatever" ship with you as her captain standing on the shores watching her sailing away that very moment you specified the above non_bashing_or_whatever points of "discussion", was the predestined course. Sad.


:thumbup:

Exactly. From the original post, this was destined to turn out "ugly". Our OP may think that he wanted this to be just a "discussion" with no bashing, but his own phasing was in effect a bash itself and paved the way for what followed. Of course can anyone really believe that a thread titled "Vettel & Number 2s" was going to end up any other way than it has?



You know I put question marks against them. As in asking the forum a question.

It might be a leading question, I give you that...but it's meant for people to agree or disagree, with then giving their opinions.

But you've somehow made an alternative narrative to what I genuinely thought was a honest and innocent questioning of a current topic.



p.s. my ship was innocently sailed and you threw rocks at it :lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Preferred would mean that if the situations were reversed and Bottas was being held up by Hamilton and not allowed to chase after the next car in front then we can say that Hamilton is the preferred driver.


Yes, it would. But you are not implying that that would be the only one way of how it manifests, are you? For example, how about issuing a TO to struggling Kimi to move aside for Vettel and have Vettel pass without actually racing Kimi, so that he could give a try to catch Hamilton ahead (and fail in it anyway, but profit the gain position)? Would that also qualify as preferred driver?
(you know, that would be opposite to that what we have seen in Hungary where they didn't ask struggling Vettel to let Kim pass)


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:41 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
p.s. my ship was innocently sailed and you threw rocks at it :lol:

Actually, those were well intended signals "your ship is sailing lose, take care", but you have mistaken them for the rocks and got all defensive not bothering about your ship. :uhoh:


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:55 pm 
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olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
tootsie323 wrote:
Quite an apt thread title, in hindsight. Debate centred on Vettel, several posts full of Number 2s.


I know right?

I've lost interest in my own topic.

I specifically stated that this topic wasn't for bashing or whether Vettel was good, blah blah blah...it went off topic quick and I've given up on attempts to bring it back round now...


- Vettel fearing a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed
- everyone in paddocks may believe this too
- Vettel looking like a x4 paper WDC
- titles not fully deserved due to a preferential status

Dude, your "no_bashing_or_whatever" ship with you as her captain standing on the shores watching her sailing away that very moment you specified the above non_bashing_or_whatever points of "discussion", was the predestined course. Sad.


:thumbup:

Exactly. From the original post, this was destined to turn out "ugly". Our OP may think that he wanted this to be just a "discussion" with no bashing, but his own phasing was in effect a bash itself and paved the way for what followed. Of course can anyone really believe that a thread titled "Vettel & Number 2s" was going to end up any other way than it has?



You know I put question marks against them. As in asking the forum a question.

It might be a leading question, I give you that...but it's meant for people to agree or disagree, with then giving their opinions.

But you've somehow made an alternative narrative to what I genuinely thought was a honest and innocent questioning of a current topic.



p.s. my ship was innocently sailed and you threw rocks at it :lol:

You've been here for 3 years, you should have known better really, how these threads tend to go I mean.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Prema wrote:

- Vettel fearing a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed
- everyone in paddocks may believe this too
- Vettel looking like a x4 paper WDC
- titles not fully deserved due to a preferential status

Dude, your "no_bashing_or_whatever" ship with you as her captain standing on the shores watching her sailing away that very moment you specified the above non_bashing_or_whatever points of "discussion", was the predestined course. Sad.


:thumbup:

Exactly. From the original post, this was destined to turn out "ugly". Our OP may think that he wanted this to be just a "discussion" with no bashing, but his own phasing was in effect a bash itself and paved the way for what followed. Of course can anyone really believe that a thread titled "Vettel & Number 2s" was going to end up any other way than it has?



You know I put question marks against them. As in asking the forum a question.

It might be a leading question, I give you that...but it's meant for people to agree or disagree, with then giving their opinions.

But you've somehow made an alternative narrative to what I genuinely thought was a honest and innocent questioning of a current topic.



p.s. my ship was innocently sailed and you threw rocks at it :lol:

You've been here for 3 years, you should have known better really, how these threads tend to go I mean.

But the credit for the entusiasm, though. Any of those points up would be enough for a kind of a flame thread on its own, and even standing independent of each other.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
p.s. my ship was innocently sailed and you threw rocks at it :lol:

Actually, those were well intended signals "your ship is sailing lose, take care", but you have mistaken them for the rocks and got all defensive not bothering about your ship. :uhoh:


Dude, I feel like you need to buy a boat.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:03 am 
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olly-44 wrote:
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
p.s. my ship was innocently sailed and you threw rocks at it :lol:

Actually, those were well intended signals "your ship is sailing lose, take care", but you have mistaken them for the rocks and got all defensive not bothering about your ship. :uhoh:


Dude, I feel like you need to buy a boat.

... or you simply stop self-pitying about your innocently sailed ship getting victimized.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:12 am 
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olly-44 wrote:
Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed??


At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 9:33 am 
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Kimi's being signed by Ferrari on the year-to-year bases, Vettel gets a 3-year long contract. They might well have nothing to each other to do, who signed first and who second. One not depending on another.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:27 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed??


At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.
A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:40 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.

A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D


The BIB.
If so, then that one would eliminate all those other claims/beliefs of Vettel having any saying or even influence in who his teammate is to be, not to speak of some contractual "no-no" clauses. And not only that, but that he is being basically kept in dark about it altogether and only when he perhaps reads the news in papers "Kimi signed a 1-year contract with Ferrari" then he goes "Uh, good to know, now I can sign my 3-year contract too".


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:26 am 
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When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:31 am 
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Teddy007 wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed??


At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.

You think that Hamilton left McLaren because of Button?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:34 am 
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Prema wrote:
Kimi's being signed by Ferrari on the year-to-year bases, Vettel gets a 3-year long contract. They might well have nothing to each other to do, who signed first and who second. One not depending on another.

Vettel signed the contract in the Spa paddock the day after Kimi was confirmed for another year, I think the one begat the other.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:39 am 
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Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.

A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D


The BIB.
If so, then that one would eliminate all those other claims/beliefs of Vettel having any saying or even influence in who his teammate is to be, not to speak of some contractual "no-no" clauses. And not only that, but that he is being basically kept in dark about it altogether and only when he perhaps reads the news in papers "Kimi signed a 1-year contract with Ferrari" then he goes "Uh, good to know, now I can sign my 3-year contract too".

Then why didn't Vettel sign before the Spa weekend, he was reportedly seen with his lawyer sifting through sheets of paper in the paddock, his new 3 year deal was announced the day it was signed, that could have been the case with Kimi as well?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:41 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:44 am 
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pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.


Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:51 am 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.


Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?

A #2 driver doesn't get the place given back to him, Rosberg moved out of the way for Hamilton at Monaco last year, did that make him a #2 driver?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.


Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?

A #2 driver doesn't get the place given back to him, Rosberg moved out of the way for Hamilton at Monaco last year, did that make him a #2 driver?


off course not, he beat Lewis last year, do you honestly belive Bottas will be allowed to try to copy that?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:56 am 
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pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 11:57 am 
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Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed??


At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.
A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D




Oh would you look at that Prema? People discussing the post rather than stating whether it#s bashing or not.

They even took the quote "Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed?", as an open end question and gave their opinion. I would happily respect their opinion but you've wanted to create a different narrative.

This isn't a self pitying/victimization exercise. I just used my words to explain that innocence of the question from it's infancy. Not once did I state whether you were bullying me or that I was being attacked.


You'd see this as self pitying/victimization just as you took the original post as bashing rather than a face value discussion. Jeez.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:08 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.


It is the above and also the fact that if Hamilton managed to pass at least one of the Ferrari's then the whole arrangement was going to go out the window. Team orders gave Lewis an opportunity to attack that otherwise wouldn't be there.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.

A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D


The BIB.
If so, then that one would eliminate all those other claims/beliefs of Vettel having any saying or even influence in who his teammate is to be, not to speak of some contractual "no-no" clauses. And not only that, but that he is being basically kept in dark about it altogether and only when he perhaps reads the news in papers "Kimi signed a 1-year contract with Ferrari" then he goes "Uh, good to know, now I can sign my 3-year contract too".

Then why didn't Vettel sign before the Spa weekend, he was reportedly seen with his lawyer sifting through sheets of paper in the paddock, his new 3 year deal was announced the day it was signed, that could have been the case with Kimi as well?


Yes, why didn't he sign before? That was my point too. If Vettel had to first see the ink on Kimi's contract before making his move on his 3-year contract, then he was dependent on it. Meaning, not only that he couldn't have any clause in his contract assuring who his teammate to be (even for one year only) but he had to WAIT to see it actually happen.

Anyway, my real point is that the timing of signing and announcing of the same does not tell us just anything. You can make anything out of it as you please.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:22 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.


Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?

A #2 driver doesn't get the place given back to him, Rosberg moved out of the way for Hamilton at Monaco last year, did that make him a #2 driver?


off course not, he beat Lewis last year, do you honestly belive Bottas will be allowed to try to copy that?

To an extent that's up to Bottas himself, how many times this year do you think Bottas has shown that he has the speed to beat Hamilton?

Do you want to magic something up for him?

To the question I asked you diverted to something else after basically admitting that what happened in Hungary was not proof of Bottas being a #2 driver.

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