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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:28 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
It didn't on the end, hence Lauda coming out saying that he knows what to do. That is what the difference between being just "preferred" driver and a full flagged No. 1 is to mean. That was good example, pokerman. No more attempting "deals" like that, but just have Bottas move away, period. And again, we'll have the opportunity to see itor not to see.

Lauda doesn't have that kind of power, he may bark but he doesn't bite, you have nothing to go on but keep trying.

No need for such defensiveness, pokerman.

I never prescribed him "that kind of power" anyway, just saying what his opinion/position is. And I do not think that he would be the only one dude in Merc thinking that way. The significance of Lauda's public "barking" may be exactly in that, that he is disclosing us what Merc is up to. He may be simply echoing Wolff's position and taking "credit" for it. You know old folks sometimes even forget that they heard it from someone else...

And I keep saying that we do not have anything concrete yet, the time may show. So what if that happens? What does that matter to you anyway? I am sure Ferrari will run that way if pressed by the situation, what any different Wolff and Merc would be?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:42 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
How did it help Hamilton to give 3rd place back to Bottas in Hungary?

well, it meant people couldn't accuse him of being dishonest?

But if is the proposed preferred driver why did such a deal have to be made in the first place?

ah, but that's one step further back from simply giving it back. For Bottas to have been ordered to give up the place would have been beyond preferred and would have been an indication of official number one status for Hamilton. To date, for example, Kimi has not yet been ordered out of the way...

They get Kimi out of the way in the pit stops and then he stays out of the way.

Ricciardo did the same with Kvyat in Monaco and then later gave the place back, Ricciardo was never the preferred driver he even finished behind Kvyat in the WDC.

Which illustrates the preferred/official distinction pretty well. If Vettel was official number one, he wouldn't have had to have worked for it in Monaco. To date there have been no orders to that effect which we have been made aware of (and I'm near as certain that these would have been released to the public). Vettel has only rarely found himself in a position behind Kimi and in all honesty the only controversial situation regarding those two that I can think of was Monaco. The Hungary situation was a deal that Lewis proposed. If the team had allowed him to renege on that, how would it have made both Lewis and the team look?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:32 am 
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However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:38 am 
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Option or Prime wrote:
However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.


How do people come up with this?

Mercedes has won 4 of the last 6 races, but Vettel is still leading the championship, it's more about Hamilton saving face as it will be the 2nd year running if he fails to win in the Mercedes again.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:42 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.


How do people come up with this?

Mercedes has won 4 of the last 6 races, but Vettel is still leading the championship, it's more about Hamilton saving face as it will be the 2nd year running if he fails to win in the Mercedes again.


:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:47 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Mark Hughes also reported Vettel had Alonso vetoed as a teammate in his first contract but now there is no such clause. You got to wait till the drivers get abit older ;) .

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:52 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.


How do people come up with this?

Mercedes has won 4 of the last 6 races, but Vettel is still leading the championship, it's more about Hamilton saving face as it will be the 2nd year running if he fails to win in the Mercedes again.


:lol:


You might laugh, but its the truth.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 8:56 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Mark Hughes also reported Vettel had Alonso vetoed as a teammate in his first contract but now there is no such clause. You got to wait till the drivers get abit older ;) .


It's funny with this experts ask them for the amount of performance bonus the drivers get they cant tell you, but someone they can tell you who has got a no Alonso clause.

What surprises me the most is as of '14 they were all clamouring for Alonso to leave Ferrari and Alonso himself wanted to leave so humour me really, why would Vettel have asked for a no Alonso clause in his contract then?

Once the narrative fits people tend not to think about what the expert says anymore.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:21 am 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Mark Hughes also reported Vettel had Alonso vetoed as a teammate in his first contract but now there is no such clause. You got to wait till the drivers get abit older ;) .


It's funny with this experts ask them for the amount of performance bonus the drivers get they cant tell you, but someone they can tell you who has got a no Alonso clause.

What surprises me the most is as of '14 they were all clamouring for Alonso to leave Ferrari and Alonso himself wanted to leave so humour me really, why would Vettel have asked for a no Alonso clause in his contract then?

Once the narrative fits people tend not to think about what the expert says anymore.


Did anyone ask Mark Hughes the amount of performance bonus Vettel gets? Ask him and see if he has an answer.

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 9:50 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Mark Hughes also reported Vettel had Alonso vetoed as a teammate in his first contract but now there is no such clause. You got to wait till the drivers get abit older ;) .


It's funny with this experts ask them for the amount of performance bonus the drivers get they cant tell you, but someone they can tell you who has got a no Alonso clause.

What surprises me the most is as of '14 they were all clamouring for Alonso to leave Ferrari and Alonso himself wanted to leave so humour me really, why would Vettel have asked for a no Alonso clause in his contract then?

Once the narrative fits people tend not to think about what the expert says anymore.


Did anyone ask Mark Hughes the amount of performance bonus Vettel gets? Ask him and see if he has an answer.

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


In your opinion!


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:14 am 
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In most peoples opinion, it has to be Alonso or Hamilton


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:45 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:00 am 
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Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.


I answered the question of why would Vettel not want Alonso as a teammate? I answered because Alonso is a better driver. Which you wouldn't find many people who disagreee with that.

I'm not talking fantasies, was just reporting what Mark Hughes has said. I have never said it was fact or that I believe it. Not that Pokerman needs it but I was backing him up on that it had been reported, which is true.

I also said Vettel signed a 3 year contract and anything can happen in that time, I would say that is pretty fair. Specially when Alonso was joining McLaren were anything can happen.

No need for your over the top post really.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:04 am 
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"If he did ask for a year, I'm unaware of it," Ferrari president Marchionne told Sky Sports. "The only thing we ever talked about was whether it was a two or three-year deal. I think he's happy here.

http://www.espn.co.uk/f1/story/_/id/205 ... orter-deal

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:25 am 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No I just meant that perhaps he should keep some things to himself.

Good advice since we have no mean of determining what is truth and what a fiction coming out of his mouth. Particularly so knowing Hamilton being a proven liar (Jarno Trulli case) he may lie or twist the truth with his face straight.

No I didn't mean that either, if you are told something in confidence then maybe you should keep it to yourself, I see you have quite a low opinion of him calling him a flat out liar and bringing up something 8 years ago when he was told to lie.


Oh, I know you didn't mean that, but I though it still be a good advice out of the said reason too. And "8 years ago", it is but a testimony to the fact of Hamilton being perfectly able of flatly lying when it serves his interests even if that meant misfortune to someone else. Characters of people do not change just like that because some years pass.

You apparently take it for granted that every time Mr. Hamilton runs his mouth wide about other people, he speaks but the truth and discloses the correct info (but hack, he better he does not since it might be a betrayal of trust if the info received in confidence?). I, oth, am just not that blindly trustful. Ham is a great racer, but there it stops for me. The dude is not my role model exactly. I take it that he may sometimes tell the truth and sometimes twist it and sometimes even simply fabricate something. So yes, I am happy if you call that "quite a low opinion" of Hamilton if that makes your day and if that helps you in upholding your belief in him.

Well it is exactly that, you have a low opinion of Hamilton.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:30 am 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
It didn't on the end, hence Lauda coming out saying that he knows what to do. That is what the difference between being just "preferred" driver and a full flagged No. 1 is to mean. That was good example, pokerman. No more attempting "deals" like that, but just have Bottas move away, period. And again, we'll have the opportunity to see itor not to see.

Lauda doesn't have that kind of power, he may bark but he doesn't bite, you have nothing to go on but keep trying.

No need for such defensiveness, pokerman.

I never prescribed him "that kind of power" anyway, just saying what his opinion/position is. And I do not think that he would be the only one dude in Merc thinking that way. The significance of Lauda's public "barking" may be exactly in that, that he is disclosing us what Merc is up to. He may be simply echoing Wolff's position and taking "credit" for it. You know old folks sometimes even forget that they heard it from someone else...

And I keep saying that we do not have anything concrete yet, the time may show. So what if that happens? What does that matter to you anyway? I am sure Ferrari will run that way if pressed by the situation, what any different Wolff and Merc would be?

Well there's nothing concrete because it's not true but they way things are going team orders will get issued sooner or later but that would not be prove that's been the case all season.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:35 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
well, it meant people couldn't accuse him of being dishonest?

But if is the proposed preferred driver why did such a deal have to be made in the first place?

ah, but that's one step further back from simply giving it back. For Bottas to have been ordered to give up the place would have been beyond preferred and would have been an indication of official number one status for Hamilton. To date, for example, Kimi has not yet been ordered out of the way...

They get Kimi out of the way in the pit stops and then he stays out of the way.

Ricciardo did the same with Kvyat in Monaco and then later gave the place back, Ricciardo was never the preferred driver he even finished behind Kvyat in the WDC.

Which illustrates the preferred/official distinction pretty well. If Vettel was official number one, he wouldn't have had to have worked for it in Monaco. To date there have been no orders to that effect which we have been made aware of (and I'm near as certain that these would have been released to the public). Vettel has only rarely found himself in a position behind Kimi and in all honesty the only controversial situation regarding those two that I can think of was Monaco. The Hungary situation was a deal that Lewis proposed. If the team had allowed him to renege on that, how would it have made both Lewis and the team look?

I've said it before that the preferential treatment for Vettel is in preferred strategies and not in Kimi letting Vettel by, another rumour from the paddock, and we saw this play out in both Monaco and Hungary.

The fact that Hamilton has to strike a deal shows he has no preference, the team would just issue the order itself if Hamilton was the preferred driver.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:37 am 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Mark Hughes also reported Vettel had Alonso vetoed as a teammate in his first contract but now there is no such clause. You got to wait till the drivers get abit older ;) .

Mark Hughes works for Sky so that relates to the article I recently posted so it won't be believed.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:40 am 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
mds wrote:
The thing is that without source, they can say whatever the heck they want to say. That's what this whole thing is about you know. No sources = lousy journalism.

Tell me pokerman, how high do you rate the chance that this was told them by one of the select few that would actually have seen the contract?

No sources does not necessarily mean lousy journalism. In a case like this, it could just mean they have a source, but one who's not willing to go on record due to the very high risk of losing his job for blabbing about contracts.

Not that I believe the Vettel contract thing either, I just want to defend the idea of journalistic sources being kept anonymous. It doesn't mean it's bad journalism.


Mark Hughes also reported Vettel had Alonso vetoed as a teammate in his first contract but now there is no such clause. You got to wait till the drivers get abit older ;) .


It's funny with this experts ask them for the amount of performance bonus the drivers get they cant tell you, but someone they can tell you who has got a no Alonso clause.

What surprises me the most is as of '14 they were all clamouring for Alonso to leave Ferrari and Alonso himself wanted to leave so humour me really, why would Vettel have asked for a no Alonso clause in his contract then?

Once the narrative fits people tend not to think about what the expert says anymore.

Vettel joined the day after Alonso left so his contract must already have been agreed, as in I join Ferrari provided Alonso is not in the team.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:44 am 
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Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.

Verstappen was still in F3 and Ricciardo was contracted to Red Bull until 2019, whilst Hamilton was unlikely not to re-sign for a dominant team.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:48 am 
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Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed?? Yes. The butt kicking he took at the hands of Danny Ric has stayed with him. This is clearly one of the reasons that he has Kimi, as his number 2. Kind of sad really but I guess it's human nature init.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:51 am 
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Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.


How do people come up with this?

Mercedes has won 4 of the last 6 races, but Vettel is still leading the championship, it's more about Hamilton saving face as it will be the 2nd year running if he fails to win in the Mercedes again.


:lol:


You might laugh, but its the truth.

Seems EVERY discussion on this board is only 6 degrees away from Hamilton. It's like a .... I don't know but it's like that.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:01 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.

Verstappen was still in F3 and Ricciardo was contracted to Red Bull until 2019, whilst Hamilton was unlikely not to re-sign for a dominant team.

... in the new 3-year contract just signed by Vettel.
Anyway, you didn't read that bit "anything can happen year to year". Alonso just left Ferrari then and got 3-year contract with McLaren... so what.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:02 pm 
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LBET wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.


How do people come up with this?

Mercedes has won 4 of the last 6 races, but Vettel is still leading the championship, it's more about Hamilton saving face as it will be the 2nd year running if he fails to win in the Mercedes again.


:lol:


You might laugh, but its the truth.

Seems EVERY discussion on this board is only 6 degrees away from Hamilton. It's like a .... I don't know but it's like that.

This fairy cakes about Vettel is tightly connected to Hamilton. Actually it doesn't make a use otherwise. And Ham is even an active part of it, being referred to as the genuine source of confidential info.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:19 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.

Verstappen was still in F3 and Ricciardo was contracted to Red Bull until 2019, whilst Hamilton was unlikely not to re-sign for a dominant team.

... in the new 3-year contract just signed by Vettel.
Anyway, you didn't read that bit "anything can happen year to year". Alonso just left Ferrari then and got 3-year contract with McLaren... so what.


Anything can happen year to year including car performances in contracts.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:19 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
But if is the proposed preferred driver why did such a deal have to be made in the first place?

ah, but that's one step further back from simply giving it back. For Bottas to have been ordered to give up the place would have been beyond preferred and would have been an indication of official number one status for Hamilton. To date, for example, Kimi has not yet been ordered out of the way...

They get Kimi out of the way in the pit stops and then he stays out of the way.

Ricciardo did the same with Kvyat in Monaco and then later gave the place back, Ricciardo was never the preferred driver he even finished behind Kvyat in the WDC.

Which illustrates the preferred/official distinction pretty well. If Vettel was official number one, he wouldn't have had to have worked for it in Monaco. To date there have been no orders to that effect which we have been made aware of (and I'm near as certain that these would have been released to the public). Vettel has only rarely found himself in a position behind Kimi and in all honesty the only controversial situation regarding those two that I can think of was Monaco. The Hungary situation was a deal that Lewis proposed. If the team had allowed him to renege on that, how would it have made both Lewis and the team look?

I've said it before that the preferential treatment for Vettel is in preferred strategies and not in Kimi letting Vettel by, another rumour from the paddock, and we saw this play out in both Monaco and Hungary.

The fact that Hamilton has to strike a deal shows he has no preference, the team would just issue the order itself if Hamilton was the preferred driver.

You're confusing things and making some unfounded assumptions. Vettel hasn't once had to ask to move Kimi out of the way. On what basis do you make the claims you do? Take today, for instance. Kimi certainly wasn't defending in a manner that suggested he got the memo he has to defer, did he?

The team would have issued the order if Hamilton was the official number one. As preferred driver, things are a lot more loose


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 2:24 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
However, it is not difficult to state you have 'an equal drivers policy' yet favour one driver in team actions. Vettel's re-signing seems to indicate to me that he has chosen to stick with what he knows. If he fails to win the WDC this year I think he will fade as the likes of MV and Ocon get more experienced. At some point Ferrari must invest in the future. The window of opportunity is closing for the likes of Hamilton and Vettel.
We shouldn't also forget that if you stick a decent PU in the Red Bull and DR comes into play as well.

I do feel there is a covert support for SV, from Ferrari's point of view being covert it is easy to switch so in my view SV needs to do well this year to keep that status.

I think you are also making a number of unfounded assumptions here. How you imagine that a 4 times WDC would fade if he gets beaten to the title by a 3 times (turning to 4) WDC driving a faster car is something only you will know, I suppose.

The only thing anyone without insider knowledge may infer from Vettel re-signing for three years is that he feels that Ferrari are the team in the best position to give him (an) additional title(s). The same as if Lewis re-signs for Mercedes. That's it.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 3:18 pm 
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Yes, Zoue, I am making assumptions and its just my opinion. What I'm saying is that the length of time you have at the top, in a fast car, with full team support of one of the leading F1 campaigners is limited. Not only for SV but also LH. Ask Fernando Alonso. Say the Renault engine comes good next year and the chassis on the RB stays as good as ever. Could numbers 1 and 2 this year maintain their form from a resurgent Verstappen and Ricciardo challenge?

Heaven forbid but say McLaren ditch Honda and stick the 'hypothetical' revived Renault engine in the seemingly excellent chassis that would add Alonso into the mix.

If Vettel struggles this year the number of chances he has of getting WDC 5 will start to decline, same for Hamilton thats what I mean by fade, he might still be hungry but will he have the window?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:14 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.

Verstappen was still in F3 and Ricciardo was contracted to Red Bull until 2019, whilst Hamilton was unlikely not to re-sign for a dominant team.

... in the new 3-year contract just signed by Vettel.
Anyway, you didn't read that bit "anything can happen year to year". Alonso just left Ferrari then and got 3-year contract with McLaren... so what.

You was referring to his first contract.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 4:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
ah, but that's one step further back from simply giving it back. For Bottas to have been ordered to give up the place would have been beyond preferred and would have been an indication of official number one status for Hamilton. To date, for example, Kimi has not yet been ordered out of the way...

They get Kimi out of the way in the pit stops and then he stays out of the way.

Ricciardo did the same with Kvyat in Monaco and then later gave the place back, Ricciardo was never the preferred driver he even finished behind Kvyat in the WDC.

Which illustrates the preferred/official distinction pretty well. If Vettel was official number one, he wouldn't have had to have worked for it in Monaco. To date there have been no orders to that effect which we have been made aware of (and I'm near as certain that these would have been released to the public). Vettel has only rarely found himself in a position behind Kimi and in all honesty the only controversial situation regarding those two that I can think of was Monaco. The Hungary situation was a deal that Lewis proposed. If the team had allowed him to renege on that, how would it have made both Lewis and the team look?

I've said it before that the preferential treatment for Vettel is in preferred strategies and not in Kimi letting Vettel by, another rumour from the paddock, and we saw this play out in both Monaco and Hungary.

The fact that Hamilton has to strike a deal shows he has no preference, the team would just issue the order itself if Hamilton was the preferred driver.

You're confusing things and making some unfounded assumptions. Vettel hasn't once had to ask to move Kimi out of the way. On what basis do you make the claims you do? Take today, for instance. Kimi certainly wasn't defending in a manner that suggested he got the memo he has to defer, did he?

The team would have issued the order if Hamilton was the official number one. As preferred driver, things are a lot more loose

Were did I say that Kimi had to let Vettel by?

Preferred driver and #1 driver is the same thing, a preferred driver doesn't give up his position to his teammate.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 5:41 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:

Again quite simple reason Vettel wouldn't want Alonso as a teammate. Its because he is a better driver and most likely the best on the grid.

Vettel signed a 3 year contract, anything can happen year to year let alone in committing yourself to 3 years.


And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.

Verstappen was still in F3 and Ricciardo was contracted to Red Bull until 2019, whilst Hamilton was unlikely not to re-sign for a dominant team.

... in the new 3-year contract just signed by Vettel.
Anyway, you didn't read that bit "anything can happen year to year". Alonso just left Ferrari then and got 3-year contract with McLaren... so what.

You was referring to his first contract.

Not that it matters, but I wasn't. Up, bold underlined.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 6:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Preferred driver and #1 driver is the same thing, a preferred driver doesn't give up his position to his teammate.

You got it back-foot. It's not about "preferred" driver giving up his position, regardless of. But that other driver giving up his position to him, and the manner how that is being achieved.
Example, Monaco this year. The team facilitated their WDC hope Vettel with the opportunity to over-cut Kimi (which they might have not done in a reverse situation). But Vettel had to work his donkey of and deliver or otherwise it was not to work. He actually raced Kimi, and managed to produce that 1 sec or so gap. And Kimi raced hard too, he did nor simply dutifully give up his position to Vettel as No. 2 would have to.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:12 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Yes, Zoue, I am making assumptions and its just my opinion. What I'm saying is that the length of time you have at the top, in a fast car, with full team support of one of the leading F1 campaigners is limited. Not only for SV but also LH. Ask Fernando Alonso. Say the Renault engine comes good next year and the chassis on the RB stays as good as ever. Could numbers 1 and 2 this year maintain their form from a resurgent Verstappen and Ricciardo challenge?

Heaven forbid but say McLaren ditch Honda and stick the 'hypothetical' revived Renault engine in the seemingly excellent chassis that would add Alonso into the mix.

If Vettel struggles this year the number of chances he has of getting WDC 5 will start to decline, same for Hamilton thats what I mean by fade, he might still be hungry but will he have the window?


And again, I repeat how is he struggling, he led the championship till today for someone in a slower car.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:23 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Yes, Zoue, I am making assumptions and its just my opinion. What I'm saying is that the length of time you have at the top, in a fast car, with full team support of one of the leading F1 campaigners is limited. Not only for SV but also LH. Ask Fernando Alonso. Say the Renault engine comes good next year and the chassis on the RB stays as good as ever. Could numbers 1 and 2 this year maintain their form from a resurgent Verstappen and Ricciardo challenge?

Heaven forbid but say McLaren ditch Honda and stick the 'hypothetical' revived Renault engine in the seemingly excellent chassis that would add Alonso into the mix.

If Vettel struggles this year the number of chances he has of getting WDC 5 will start to decline, same for Hamilton thats what I mean by fade, he might still be hungry but will he have the window?


Both LH and SV will, there is no change in regulations so Im sure both Ferrari and Mercedes fighting at the front in 2018 and I really hope RB can join in.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:43 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:

And here is where fantasies get their doors wide open... anything can happen and anything goes.

Vettel did a good job then. He run away from Ricciardo in RB, he landed into the mighty Ferrari, obtained historically high contract, dictated to Ferrari the "no-Alonso" clause (while "no-Ric" would be making more sense anyway, guess he got that one too) and he kept twisting Ferrari's hand to keep re-signing his good buddy grandpa Kimi. And so he got himself now another 3-year contract, surely with "no-Alonso", "no-Ric", "no-Lewis", "no-Max" and "no-anybody-I-don't-approve" clause.

Verstappen was still in F3 and Ricciardo was contracted to Red Bull until 2019, whilst Hamilton was unlikely not to re-sign for a dominant team.

... in the new 3-year contract just signed by Vettel.
Anyway, you didn't read that bit "anything can happen year to year". Alonso just left Ferrari then and got 3-year contract with McLaren... so what.

You was referring to his first contract.

Not that it matters, but I wasn't. Up, bold underlined.

Oh yes I misread, sorry.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:48 pm 
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Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Preferred driver and #1 driver is the same thing, a preferred driver doesn't give up his position to his teammate.

You got it back-foot. It's not about "preferred" driver giving up his position, regardless of. But that other driver giving up his position to him, and the manner how that is being achieved.
Example, Monaco this year. The team facilitated their WDC hope Vettel with the opportunity to over-cut Kimi (which they might have not done in a reverse situation). But Vettel had to work his donkey of and deliver or otherwise it was not to work. He actually raced Kimi, and managed to produce that 1 sec or so gap. And Kimi raced hard too, he did nor simply dutifully give up his position to Vettel as No. 2 would have to.

That doesn't dictate that one driver is preferred this happens in teams from time to time, everyone agrees that Perez should have let Ocon by in Canada, that wouldn't have made Ocon the preferred driver.

Regarding Ferrari they didn't allow Kimi the over cut in Hungary when he was much faster than Vettel.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:33 am 
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Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Yes, Zoue, I am making assumptions and its just my opinion. What I'm saying is that the length of time you have at the top, in a fast car, with full team support of one of the leading F1 campaigners is limited. Not only for SV but also LH. Ask Fernando Alonso. Say the Renault engine comes good next year and the chassis on the RB stays as good as ever. Could numbers 1 and 2 this year maintain their form from a resurgent Verstappen and Ricciardo challenge?

Heaven forbid but say McLaren ditch Honda and stick the 'hypothetical' revived Renault engine in the seemingly excellent chassis that would add Alonso into the mix.

If Vettel struggles this year the number of chances he has of getting WDC 5 will start to decline, same for Hamilton thats what I mean by fade, he might still be hungry but will he have the window?


And again, I repeat how is he struggling, he led the championship till today for someone in a slower car.


He is struggling in this WDC fight after a great start. He won 2 of the first 3 races, he has won 2 in 10 since then. Winning 1 in 5 form to the end will not win him this title.

Post Monaco, he has lost 28 points to Hamilton and the headrest issue is the only thing preventing him from being quite a bit behind now. If that didn't happen Hamilton would be 20 points ahead in the championship.

Ferrari have not maintained there early season promise. They may come good later in the year, but after those early season wins, Ferrari have only won on their "joker" tracks since - Monaco, Hungary and I presume Singapore - the three tracks they were tipped to win all season long.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:05 am 
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lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Yes, Zoue, I am making assumptions and its just my opinion. What I'm saying is that the length of time you have at the top, in a fast car, with full team support of one of the leading F1 campaigners is limited. Not only for SV but also LH. Ask Fernando Alonso. Say the Renault engine comes good next year and the chassis on the RB stays as good as ever. Could numbers 1 and 2 this year maintain their form from a resurgent Verstappen and Ricciardo challenge?

Heaven forbid but say McLaren ditch Honda and stick the 'hypothetical' revived Renault engine in the seemingly excellent chassis that would add Alonso into the mix.

If Vettel struggles this year the number of chances he has of getting WDC 5 will start to decline, same for Hamilton thats what I mean by fade, he might still be hungry but will he have the window?


And again, I repeat how is he struggling, he led the championship till today for someone in a slower car.


He is struggling in this WDC fight after a great start. He won 2 of the first 3 races, he has won 2 in 10 since then. Winning 1 in 5 form to the end will not win him this title.

Post Monaco, he has lost 28 points to Hamilton and the headrest issue is the only thing preventing him from being quite a bit behind now. If that didn't happen Hamilton would be 20 points ahead in the championship.

Ferrari have not maintained there early season promise. They may come good later in the year, but after those early season wins, Ferrari have only won on their "joker" tracks since - Monaco, Hungary and I presume Singapore - the three tracks they were tipped to win all season long.


I don't think Vettel is struggling, 2nd and 3rd he would have taken at Spa and Monza before the season started. In the end Ferrari saw it as an opportunity lost in Spa, they should have won.

Saying someone or a team has won so many races is just putting the numbers down without looking at the bigger picture.

In Baku Vettel was still competitive with a turned down engine. In Austria Ferrari was defiantly competitive but Merc had track position. In Canada Vettel had a first corner collision.

Go back further and Ferrari had the pace in Russia but not track position. We all know about Spain and the VSC, even China VSC, SC at Spa. There's lots of little things which can edge races each way, these little things might happen to help Vettel in the last 7 races. A DNF will decide the championship, I suspect even a 10 place grid penalty at the wrong circuit could.

Defiantly not all doom and gloom for Vettel and Ferrari and I'm sure he will be leading going into Malaysia.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:07 am 
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That is all well and good, but Vettel could have won all six of the opening races and did win 3 with 3 2nds... he doesn't have anywhere near that form now.

He only had a chance in Austria because Hamilton was taking a gearbox penalty and didn't get practice runs in Q2 on the qualifying tyre / Hamilton was slightly biased toward race setup for overtaking / all the drivers only got 1 run in Q3 and Hamilton was probably a bit off form too and its a weak track for him traditionally as well.

Baku, Hamilton built a 4-5 second lead at will when he needed to, twice. Realistically Vettel had a shot at all of the first 6 races and since then he has had a proper shot only in Hungary and Spa. Austria too, but that was more circumstantial and should have been a Mercedes 1-2 really.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:40 am 
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lamo wrote:
That is all well and good, but Vettel could have won all six of the opening races and did win 3 with 3 2nds... he doesn't have anywhere near that form now.

He only had a chance in Austria because Hamilton was taking a gearbox penalty and didn't get practice runs in Q2 on the qualifying tyre / Hamilton was slightly biased toward race setup for overtaking / all the drivers only got 1 run in Q3 and Hamilton was probably a bit off form too and its a weak track for him traditionally as well.

Baku, Hamilton built a 4-5 second lead at will when he needed to, twice. Realistically Vettel had a shot at all of the first 6 races and since then he has had a proper shot only in Hungary and Spa. Austria too, but that was more circumstantial and should have been a Mercedes 1-2 really.


Problem for Vettel is they are mainly Mercedes tracks and the Merc has quali advantage. Looking back it did start quite bad for him after Monaco with his front wing getting clipped in Canada (not his fault), his nutty 5 seconds in Baku and Silverstone were he struggled to overtake Verstappen. Maybe I am wrong and he has struggled to limit the damage on tracks which suit the Merc.

Hamilton will be doing the same in Singapore. One thing against Hamilton as a fan when he does have a bad one it is usually pretty bad as he seems to get negative, just my opinion.

If the Redbulls come into play Hamilton could lose alot of points

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