planetf1.com

It is currently Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:50 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:25 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
olly-44 wrote:
Oh would you look at that Prema? People discussing the post rather than stating whether it#s bashing or not.

They even took the quote "Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed?", as an open end question and gave their opinion. I would happily respect their opinion but you've wanted to create a different narrative.

This isn't a self pitying/victimization exercise. I just used my words to explain that innocence of the question from it's infancy. Not once did I state whether you were bullying me or that I was being attacked.


You'd see this as self pitying/victimization just as you took the original post as bashing rather than a face value discussion. Jeez.


Jeez, dude, give it a break with that silly bickering, you are the one taking crap in your own kitchen. Get to that "face value discussion" of yours.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.

This would be an alternate reality were Bottas was quicker than Hamilton?

So Hamilton gave the place back because of bad PR and it was begrudgingly done and belated at that, I think you did manage to give Hamilton some credit though.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5712
Location: Nebraska, USA
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.

This would be an alternate reality were Bottas was quicker than Hamilton?

So Hamilton gave the place back because of bad PR and it was begrudgingly done and belated at that, I think you did manage to give Hamilton some credit though.


Ah, but you are good at "alternate realities", poker.... You use them freqently.
;)

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:19 am
Posts: 670
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.


Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?

A #2 driver doesn't get the place given back to him, Rosberg moved out of the way for Hamilton at Monaco last year, did that make him a #2 driver?


off course not, he beat Lewis last year, do you honestly belive Bottas will be allowed to try to copy that?

To an extent that's up to Bottas himself, how many times this year do you think Bottas has shown that he has the speed to beat Hamilton?

Do you want to magic something up for him?

To the question I asked you diverted to something else after basically admitting that what happened in Hungary was not proof of Bottas being a #2 driver.


How can that be up to Bottas when he is being told to move over? I'm not claiming he has Lewis race pace, but he's been told to move over more times then he's been given the place back? So, do you honestly believe that he is allowed to challenge Lewis now?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6671
Location: Belgium
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.

A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D


The BIB.
If so, then that one would eliminate all those other claims/beliefs of Vettel having any saying or even influence in who his teammate is to be, not to speak of some contractual "no-no" clauses. And not only that, but that he is being basically kept in dark about it altogether and only when he perhaps reads the news in papers "Kimi signed a 1-year contract with Ferrari" then he goes "Uh, good to know, now I can sign my 3-year contract too".
I would say that if what I believe is actually the case, it shows just the opposite; Ferrari are indeed influenced by what Herr Vettel wishes. I'm not saying he can veto a driver, but that he could persuade his team to keep his current team-mate on their employment list, albeit for only one year.
So, Vettel (or perhaps his manager(s)) wait for official confirmation that his preferred team-mate has been signed and announced. Then they go over the final contract details to be settled and their announcement is made.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:50 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
SmoothRide wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.


It is the above and also the fact that if Hamilton managed to pass at least one of the Ferrari's then the whole arrangement was going to go out the window. Team orders gave Lewis an opportunity to attack that otherwise wouldn't be there.

We've seen this sort of arrangement done before with other teams that doesn't denote that one driver is the #1 driver.

What it actually did was allow Mercedes themselves to attack Ferrari, it's no coincidence that Bottas got left 5 seconds down the road, Vettel from nursing his damaged car under the protection of Kimi, all of a sudden had to push his damaged car harder than he really wanted to.

Sure it would have been a lot more comfortable for Ferrari with Bottas being directly behind them but then again Bottas and Hamilton don't drive for Ferrari they drive for Mercedes.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:56 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Teddy007 wrote:

At the end of the day all you can do is look what's happened. We don't fully know these drivers. All we see is their desire to do well etc.

Vettel wasn't a happy bunny at Red Bull in his final year. No longer was he winning races or qualifying first but to make matters worse he had a team mate that had won a few races while he had won nothing. No longer was he the prodigal son.

Did Ric contribute to his decision to leave? I'd say yes. Just like Lewis was a contribution to Alonso leaving. No driver likes to have their home invaded and a fight spewing out. Similar to Button and Lewis, although natural speed gave Lewis an edge - buttons experience and races gave him a chance of beating Lewis if he ever was off the pace, making mistakes etc. Plus being a very likable guy/supported widely it probably didn't help. If Button had more natural speed especially in qualifying I think Lewis would have left sooner.

Vettel is making Kimi look very average. So yes why would Vettel be unhappy at him signing? It's weird that Kimi signed first and shortly after Vettel did. You'd think the team would tie down their number 1 driver who is winning races - competing against the Mercs Vs the guy who... well.. competes with the Red Bulls.

At the end of the day I'd love to see Vettel team mate Alonso, Max, Ric again and Lewis.

A good post, it got me thinking. I believe Vettel may well have made his re-signing depend on who his team-mate was going to be. If so, Räikkönen only signing a contract for one year may have delayed his own signing for a 3-year one. And while I have no idea about how much money Marlboro are bringing to Ferrari, I doubt it is a coincidence that their contract extension was also announced within days. (I remember Lauda saying a few decades ago that he first went to see the Philip Morris people, before talking to his team.)

It may all be unrelated, or it may be even more closely intertwined than what I see. I just content myself with another year of seeing who has become my favourite driver. Why Ferrari think he can deliver in one year what will take Vettel three is anyone's guess. :D


The BIB.
If so, then that one would eliminate all those other claims/beliefs of Vettel having any saying or even influence in who his teammate is to be, not to speak of some contractual "no-no" clauses. And not only that, but that he is being basically kept in dark about it altogether and only when he perhaps reads the news in papers "Kimi signed a 1-year contract with Ferrari" then he goes "Uh, good to know, now I can sign my 3-year contract too".

Then why didn't Vettel sign before the Spa weekend, he was reportedly seen with his lawyer sifting through sheets of paper in the paddock, his new 3 year deal was announced the day it was signed, that could have been the case with Kimi as well?


Yes, why didn't he sign before? That was my point too. If Vettel had to first see the ink on Kimi's contract before making his move on his 3-year contract, then he was dependent on it. Meaning, not only that he couldn't have any clause in his contract assuring who his teammate to be (even for one year only) but he had to WAIT to see it actually happen.

Anyway, my real point is that the timing of signing and announcing of the same does not tell us just anything. You can make anything out of it as you please.

True but it seemed that Vettel was waiting for a certain thing to happen and when it did he signed the contract, does a driver really wanting to sort such a thing out over a race weekend?

Much like he waited to hear that Alonso was leaving Ferrari then he was announced the very next day that he was joining them.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Last edited by pokerman on Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 12:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.

This would be an alternate reality were Bottas was quicker than Hamilton?

So Hamilton gave the place back because of bad PR and it was begrudgingly done and belated at that, I think you did manage to give Hamilton some credit though.


Ah, but you are good at "alternate realities", poker.... You use them freqently.
;)

I don't try to recreate the past.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:02 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?

A #2 driver doesn't get the place given back to him, Rosberg moved out of the way for Hamilton at Monaco last year, did that make him a #2 driver?


off course not, he beat Lewis last year, do you honestly belive Bottas will be allowed to try to copy that?

To an extent that's up to Bottas himself, how many times this year do you think Bottas has shown that he has the speed to beat Hamilton?

Do you want to magic something up for him?

To the question I asked you diverted to something else after basically admitting that what happened in Hungary was not proof of Bottas being a #2 driver.


How can that be up to Bottas when he is being told to move over? I'm not claiming he has Lewis race pace, but he's been told to move over more times then he's been given the place back? So, do you honestly believe that he is allowed to challenge Lewis now?

Its up to Bottas to drive quicker and I would say by quicker relative also to Vettel, I understand you being quite happy with Hamilton being a dog fight with Bottas whilst Vettel cruises away at the front.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:16 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
Fiki wrote:
Prema wrote:
The BIB.
If so, then that one would eliminate all those other claims/beliefs of Vettel having any saying or even influence in who his teammate is to be, not to speak of some contractual "no-no" clauses. And not only that, but that he is being basically kept in dark about it altogether and only when he perhaps reads the news in papers "Kimi signed a 1-year contract with Ferrari" then he goes "Uh, good to know, now I can sign my 3-year contract too".


I would say that if what I believe is actually the case, it shows just the opposite; Ferrari are indeed influenced by what Herr Vettel wishes. I'm not saying he can veto a driver, but that he could persuade his team to keep his current team-mate on their employment list, albeit for only one year.
So, Vettel (or perhaps his manager(s)) wait for official confirmation that his preferred team-mate has been signed and announced. Then they go over the final contract details to be settled and their announcement is made.


This "Ferrari are indeed influenced by what Herr Vettel wishes" part is a pure interpolation of anybody's mind choice. Not that such is not possible, but then such an influence would be a sign of a personal power in the team and in that case kudos to Herr Vettel for his strong position in such a team as Ferrari. But that's not what I attempted to argue anyway.

What I am saying, that would at least tell us that, unlike what some folks believe, there is no contractual power existing with Herr Vettel regarding his will about his teammates if they had to WAIT and see first what happens with Herr Kimi and THEN only decide to sign Vettel depending on it (which in itself is a pure speculation that there is an inter-dependence there in the first place). See, that what you depend on to see happen with someone else in an official confirmation, is not inside of your legal contract.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 1:30 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Yes, why didn't he sign before? That was my point too. If Vettel had to first see the ink on Kimi's contract before making his move on his 3-year contract, then he was dependent on it. Meaning, not only that he couldn't have any clause in his contract assuring who his teammate to be (even for one year only) but he had to WAIT to see it actually happen.

Anyway, my real point is that the timing of signing and announcing of the same does not tell us just anything. You can make anything out of it as you please.


True but it seemed that Vettel was waiting for a certain thing to happen and when it did he signed the contract, does a driver really wanting to sort such a thing out over a race weekend?

Much like he waited to hear that Alonso was leaving Ferrari then he was announced the very next day that he was joining them.


Vettel came to Ferrari to replace Alonso if I remember correctly. Kimi was in that other seat, no? Besides, that was a complicated game Alonso - Ferrari - Vettel - McLaren that we really do not have insights in.

But I think it is extremely one-dimensional to go making out kind of conclusions from this, almost same-timed signings. What a difference would it made if Vettel was announced first and then right away Kimi? People would still go saying "Aha, Ferrari had to sign Kimi as Herr Vettel demanded, it surely is a clause in his contract, and Kimi is No. 2".

And tell me, where was Vettel to go if not staying with Ferrari? What reasonable openings were there available to him?

And how can he now dictate his teammate for '19 and '20?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:21 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:46 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2045
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.


Do you honestly beleive that Bottas is not #2? I've seen all season him being told to move over?

A #2 driver doesn't get the place given back to him, Rosberg moved out of the way for Hamilton at Monaco last year, did that make him a #2 driver?


off course not, he beat Lewis last year, do you honestly belive Bottas will be allowed to try to copy that?


The last 3 years are totally different to this year. Mercedes was 30 seconds up the road nearly every Grand Prix and both there drivers was just fighting themselves. Mercedes kept it very strict though and it was near impossible for the 2nd driver to win. If Bottas was in Rosbergs position the last 3 years then he would be able to fight of he had the pace of course.
This year they are fighting Ferrari for both championships. Bahrain was early in the season and Bottas race pace was awful. If you actually look at the race Hamilton was overtaking Bottas fullstop if it was through pitstops or in the race. Hamilton was quicker on the slower tyre, why wouldn't Mercedes let Hamilton through as quickly as possibe. Hungary is obvious and no big deal.

Bottas and Kimi are number 2 drivers and they should be from the first race on the season. They won't win the championship with Vettel and Hamilton around.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:49 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2045
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:
Yes, why didn't he sign before? That was my point too. If Vettel had to first see the ink on Kimi's contract before making his move on his 3-year contract, then he was dependent on it. Meaning, not only that he couldn't have any clause in his contract assuring who his teammate to be (even for one year only) but he had to WAIT to see it actually happen.

Anyway, my real point is that the timing of signing and announcing of the same does not tell us just anything. You can make anything out of it as you please.


True but it seemed that Vettel was waiting for a certain thing to happen and when it did he signed the contract, does a driver really wanting to sort such a thing out over a race weekend?

Much like he waited to hear that Alonso was leaving Ferrari then he was announced the very next day that he was joining them.


Vettel came to Ferrari to replace Alonso if I remember correctly. Kimi was in that other seat, no? Besides, that was a complicated game Alonso - Ferrari - Vettel - McLaren that we really do not have insights in.

But I think it is extremely one-dimensional to go making out kind of conclusions from this, almost same-timed signings. What a difference would it made if Vettel was announced first and then right away Kimi? People would still go saying "Aha, Ferrari had to sign Kimi as Herr Vettel demanded, it surely is a clause in his contract, and Kimi is No. 2".

And tell me, where was Vettel to go if not staying with Ferrari? What reasonable openings were there available to him?

And how can he now dictate his teammate for '19 and '20?

Mercedes but I'm not sure he would have wanted to team up with Hamilton?

It was being said before hand that he wanted Kimi to be given another 1 year contract, beyond that it does seem to be open.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 2:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2045
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
When it comes to Mercedes vs Ferrari favoritism, we have to remember that by the time of the Hungarian GP, which seems to generate a lot of noise, Hamilton and Bottas were a lot more equally matched than Vettel and Kimi. At that point in time there was still a chance that Bottas could make a run for the WDC. Kimi never had a look. Whereas Bottas was an unknown quantity, it was certain prior to this season that Kimi would not be able to beat Hamilton or Vettel in comparable cars. Ferrari had more of an incentive to play the team game from the get go, yet they didn't. Mercedes could seemingly take their time and wait, but they didn't. They were quite quick to move Bottas out of the way when they wanted.

That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.


It is the above and also the fact that if Hamilton managed to pass at least one of the Ferrari's then the whole arrangement was going to go out the window. Team orders gave Lewis an opportunity to attack that otherwise wouldn't be there.

We've seen this sort of arrangement done before with other teams that doesn't denote that one driver is the #1 driver.

What it actually did was allow Mercedes themselves to attack Ferrari, it's no coincidence that Bottas got left 5 seconds down the road, Vettel from nursing his damaged car under the protection of Kimi, all of a sudden had to push his damaged car harder than he really wanted to.

Sure it would have been a lot more comfortable for Ferrari with Bottas being directly behind them but then again Bottas and Hamilton don't drive for Ferrari they drive for Mercedes.


Bottas has only been quicker in 2 races this season. His race pace hasn't been quick enough to win a world championship. He was slower in Hungary and like Bahrain it's better the team has some chance of improving there position than no chance.
Bottas couldn't keep up with a damaged Ferrari.

Even when Hamilton does give the place back people still seem to critise. Every team has made arrangements of swapping cars but its different when it's Hamilton :lol: .

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:08 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:


And tell me, where was Vettel to go if not staying with Ferrari? What reasonable openings were there available to him?

And how can he now dictate his teammate for '19 and '20?

Mercedes but I'm not sure he would have wanted to team up with Hamilton?

It was being said before hand that he wanted Kimi to be given another 1 year contract, beyond that it does seem to be open.


Well, I asked for a "reasonable opening" that was available there for Vettel.
But if you instead prefer to go for some fan swimming pool contest, then I am sure that both Mercedes and Hamilton are far more happy with keeping their nice peaceful submissive team-player No2 Bottas than pairing Hamilton with Vettel. They had lost control over Ham - Ros relationship already.
Hey, Alonso is free! And he's sick of being a back-marker...

Oh, and why Vettel wanted only 1 year for Kimi? Why not 3, if he's already in control of it? Ask your source for me, would you?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:18 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Well, I've never known for "drivers first" policy in Ferrari. Nobody is above the team, as I remember LDM rubbing publicly Alonso's nose when Alonso went moaning about the team/car.
“Let me make it clear that it’s Ferrari I’m interested in. Drivers, we’ve had a lot, some very good, some great, but drivers come and go, while Ferrari remains.”
-LdM

Edit: also
"It is the same for him as it is for me; we serve the company. When the company has a change of plan, or if there is no longer a convergence of ideas, things change.
"Nobody is indispensable."

- LdM


Last edited by Prema on Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:26 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Nov 20, 2014 11:52 am
Posts: 127
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Oh would you look at that Prema? People discussing the post rather than stating whether it#s bashing or not.

They even took the quote "Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed?", as an open end question and gave their opinion. I would happily respect their opinion but you've wanted to create a different narrative.

This isn't a self pitying/victimization exercise. I just used my words to explain that innocence of the question from it's infancy. Not once did I state whether you were bullying me or that I was being attacked.


You'd see this as self pitying/victimization just as you took the original post as bashing rather than a face value discussion. Jeez.


Jeez, dude, give it a break with that silly bickering, you are the one taking crap in your own kitchen. Get to that "face value discussion" of yours.



No! Never! :lol:

Quite ironic that you say I'm "silly bickering" when you are doing the same ;)

_________________
F1 Fan: 20 years and counting...
Grand Prixs Attended:
British x3 * Hungary * Italy * USA * Spain * Belgium


Grand Prixs on bucket list...
Canada * Mexico * Japan * Germany


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:31 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That was good up to the last bit when you left out Hamilton giving the position back which negated what you said about all the eggs being in the Hamilton basket.



It doesn't change the fact that team orders were made to make Bottas move over so that Lewis could get past him... 5 laps to advance, and then more laps, and more laps. Reverting back to comply with a publicly announced promise to give the position back if he didn't make the subsequent pass does not change that he was given the chance. Do you honestly believe that Lewis would have been told to give Bottas a chance if the positions were reversed, or that he would have complied? Lewis did the smart thing in giving the position back, as the PR fallout would have been truly ugly. Fair play to Lewis and Merc for keeping the promise, even belatedly.


It is the above and also the fact that if Hamilton managed to pass at least one of the Ferrari's then the whole arrangement was going to go out the window. Team orders gave Lewis an opportunity to attack that otherwise wouldn't be there.

We've seen this sort of arrangement done before with other teams that doesn't denote that one driver is the #1 driver.

What it actually did was allow Mercedes themselves to attack Ferrari, it's no coincidence that Bottas got left 5 seconds down the road, Vettel from nursing his damaged car under the protection of Kimi, all of a sudden had to push his damaged car harder than he really wanted to.

Sure it would have been a lot more comfortable for Ferrari with Bottas being directly behind them but then again Bottas and Hamilton don't drive for Ferrari they drive for Mercedes.


Bottas has only been quicker in 2 races this season. His race pace hasn't been quick enough to win a world championship. He was slower in Hungary and like Bahrain it's better the team has some chance of improving there position than no chance.
Bottas couldn't keep up with a damaged Ferrari.

Even when Hamilton does give the place back people still seem to critise. Every team has made arrangements of swapping cars but its different when it's Hamilton :lol: .

Some were even more vocal than that in the race itself but then ended up with egg on their faces when Hamilton gave the place back, after wiping the egg off they just do a reset and then come at it from a different angle.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
olly-44 wrote:
Prema wrote:
olly-44 wrote:
Oh would you look at that Prema? People discussing the post rather than stating whether it#s bashing or not.

They even took the quote "Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed?", as an open end question and gave their opinion. I would happily respect their opinion but you've wanted to create a different narrative.

This isn't a self pitying/victimization exercise. I just used my words to explain that innocence of the question from it's infancy. Not once did I state whether you were bullying me or that I was being attacked.


You'd see this as self pitying/victimization just as you took the original post as bashing rather than a face value discussion. Jeez.


Jeez, dude, give it a break with that silly bickering, you are the one taking crap in your own kitchen. Get to that "face value discussion" of yours.



No! Never! :lol:

Quite ironic that you say I'm "silly bickering" when you are doing the same ;)


But you ARE still silly bickering, never mind Hillary and her lost 30k emails. It is YOUR goddamn thread and YOU are screwing it up in that stupid way by yourself. What, your precious ego has taken the better of you?

I am actually giving you a good advice. Take time out.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:45 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5712
Location: Nebraska, USA
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you apparently know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:52 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 1995
Location: England
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Back when the Old Man still ran things, it really was Ferrari first and foremost, and the driver be damned. Unfortunately, a lot of fans (even some 'older' ones now, its been 20 years) only think of Ferrari in Di Montezemolo and Todt's mould, putting Schumacher at the fore (to the obvious benefit of Ferrari, of course) and thus its a pretty prominent viewpoint that Ferrari are set in the ways of a #1 driver policy. Since Schumacher I don't think it has been that clear cut, but I think the benefit of doing things that way (it was a barren spell for a long time pre-Schumacher) are still fresh in the thinking at Maranello. Truth told, it works.

_________________
http://tsatr.mooo.com
The Sun and The Rain - The reluctant runner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:03 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2045
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you apparently know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Since I have seen Ferrari it's always been put one driver before another.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:04 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5712
Location: Nebraska, USA
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Back when the Old Man still ran things, it really was Ferrari first and foremost, and the driver be damned. Unfortunately, a lot of fans (even some 'older' ones now, its been 20 years) only think of Ferrari in Di Montezemolo and Todt's mould, putting Schumacher at the fore (to the obvious benefit of Ferrari, of course) and thus its a pretty prominent viewpoint that Ferrari are set in the ways of a #1 driver policy. Since Schumacher I don't think it has been that clear cut, but I think the benefit of doing things that way (it was a barren spell for a long time pre-Schumacher) are still fresh in the thinking at Maranello. Truth told, it works.


I can agree with most of this, Flash. However, it doesn't change the error in Ernie's comment. There are many decades where there can be no question that Ferrari was Team oriented... to the point of some pretty nasty allegations being thrown their way about their putting drivers at risk carelessly.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5712
Location: Nebraska, USA
F1_Ernie wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you apparently know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Since I have seen Ferrari it's always been put one driver before another.

The fact that you post that it will ALWAYS be that way for you basically tells me that it makes no difference to you what they do or what they have done, or even as it is, only that you will see them as you want to believe. No need to waste my time further... believe what you wish.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Last edited by Blake on Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:11 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Back when the Old Man still ran things, it really was Ferrari first and foremost, and the driver be damned. Unfortunately, a lot of fans (even some 'older' ones now, its been 20 years) only think of Ferrari in Di Montezemolo and Todt's mould, putting Schumacher at the fore (to the obvious benefit of Ferrari, of course) and thus its a pretty prominent viewpoint that Ferrari are set in the ways of a #1 driver policy. Since Schumacher I don't think it has been that clear cut, but I think the benefit of doing things that way (it was a barren spell for a long time pre-Schumacher) are still fresh in the thinking at Maranello. Truth told, it works.


But even a #1 driver policy being in use, it still would be the team's policy since it is what the team wanted for the interest of the team (winning the WDC is the team's objective too, along WCC). It is still not the individual driver's policy being imposed upon the team, it is still not "driver comes first before the team". No. As LdM said once, he got many problems but getting good drivers was never his problem. They all come, even Senna, to ask to drive for Ferrari.

Schumacher, he just molded perfectly in, unlike Alonso apparently. It was a unique symbioses - till he was virtually pushed out himself for the sake of bringing in Kimi.. who in turn was terminated for the sake of Alonso.... who in turn.. ah, forget it anyway.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:13 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 1995
Location: England
Yeah, equating Ferrari to a god that eats its children.... though that was a bit harsh, every team had its fatalities.

Guess the lesson here is to read into the history, even if you have been about a while lol

_________________
http://tsatr.mooo.com
The Sun and The Rain - The reluctant runner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2045
Blake wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Back when the Old Man still ran things, it really was Ferrari first and foremost, and the driver be damned. Unfortunately, a lot of fans (even some 'older' ones now, its been 20 years) only think of Ferrari in Di Montezemolo and Todt's mould, putting Schumacher at the fore (to the obvious benefit of Ferrari, of course) and thus its a pretty prominent viewpoint that Ferrari are set in the ways of a #1 driver policy. Since Schumacher I don't think it has been that clear cut, but I think the benefit of doing things that way (it was a barren spell for a long time pre-Schumacher) are still fresh in the thinking at Maranello. Truth told, it works.


I can agree with most of this, Flash. However, it doesn't change the error in Ernie's comment. There are many decades where there can be no question that Ferrari was Team oriented... to the point of some pretty nasty allegations being thrown their way about their putting drivers at risk carelessly.


Not really when Ferrari have been putting one driver over another for over 20 years.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:23 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
F1_Ernie wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you apparently know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Since I have seen Ferrari it's always been put one driver before another.


Oh, I think I get it... you seam to think that "driver first" policy is something like "horses first" policy. You know, like you always put one pair of horses before another pair of horses to pull the carriage.

No, the point is that they do not let a particular driver run the team with his personal interests against the the team's interests. He is not the first driver because he decided so, but because the team did.

btw, who was the No1 between Kimi and Massa?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:27 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
F1_Ernie wrote:
Not really when Ferrari have been putting one driver over another for over 20 years.


Ok, so then if they were to designate the team as No1 driver, then that would be "team first" policy and not "driver first" policy? :uhoh:


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 22323
Prema wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Prema wrote:


And tell me, where was Vettel to go if not staying with Ferrari? What reasonable openings were there available to him?

And how can he now dictate his teammate for '19 and '20?

Mercedes but I'm not sure he would have wanted to team up with Hamilton?

It was being said before hand that he wanted Kimi to be given another 1 year contract, beyond that it does seem to be open.


Well, I asked for a "reasonable opening" that was available there for Vettel.
But if you instead prefer to go for some fan swimming pool contest, then I am sure that both Mercedes and Hamilton are far more happy with keeping their nice peaceful submissive team-player No2 Bottas than pairing Hamilton with Vettel. They had lost control over Ham - Ros relationship already.
Hey, Alonso is free! And he's sick of being a back-marker...

Oh, and why Vettel wanted only 1 year for Kimi? Why not 3, if he's already in control of it? Ask your source for me, would you?

Yeah Deep Throat only said 1 year for Kimi and that's what happened, beyond that he doesn't know. :)

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 14th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2045
Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you apparently know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Since I have seen Ferrari it's always been put one driver before another.


Oh, I think I get it... you seam to think that "driver first" policy is something like "horses first" policy. You know, like you always put one pair of horses before another pair of horses to pull the carriage.

No, the point is that they do not let a particular driver run the team with his personal interests against the the team's interests. He is not the first driver because he decided so, but because the team did.

btw, who was the No1 between Kimi and Massa?


Wow takes off alot of years :lol:

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 4:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
Flash2k11 wrote:
Yeah, equating Ferrari to a god that eats its children.... though that was a bit harsh, every team had its fatalities.

Guess the lesson here is to read into the history, even if you have been about a while lol


Guess, there is no need for extrapolating some crazy universal totalitarian meanings there.

Just that "Nobody is indispensable" of LdM may occasionally look also not so pretty (LdM was damn visionary to include his own self in), brought up for the sake of making a point that in the case of a conflict of interests it is not the driver (or whatever other individual) but the team that comes first.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Since I have seen Ferrari it's always been put one driver before another.


Oh, I think I get it... you seam to think that "driver first" policy is something like "horses first" policy. You know, like you always put one pair of horses before another pair of horses to pull the carriage.

No, the point is that they do not let a particular driver run the team with his personal interests against the the team's interests. He is not the first driver because he decided so, but because the team did.

btw, who was the No1 between Kimi and Massa?


Wow takes off alot of years :lol:

Well, takes off "always".
My bad then. I assumed that you were older than that... since you have seen Ferrari..

Next one. Who was the No1 between Kimi and Alonso?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 6:54 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Oct 09, 2005 2:06 pm
Posts: 1995
Location: England
Prema wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Yeah, equating Ferrari to a god that eats its children.... though that was a bit harsh, every team had its fatalities.

Guess the lesson here is to read into the history, even if you have been about a while lol


Guess, there is no need for extrapolating some crazy universal totalitarian meanings there.

Just that "Nobody is indispensable" of LdM may occasionally look also not so pretty (LdM was damn visionary to include his own self in), brought up for the sake of making a point that in the case of a conflict of interests it is not the driver (or whatever other individual) but the team that comes first.


I may have had a few, but you are gonna have to go again here, utterly no idea what this is meant to mean lol

_________________
http://tsatr.mooo.com
The Sun and The Rain - The reluctant runner.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:22 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
Flash2k11 wrote:
Prema wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
Yeah, equating Ferrari to a god that eats its children.... though that was a bit harsh, every team had its fatalities.

Guess the lesson here is to read into the history, even if you have been about a while lol


Guess, there is no need for extrapolating some crazy universal totalitarian meanings there.

Just that "Nobody is indispensable" of LdM may occasionally look also not so pretty (LdM was damn visionary to include his own self in), brought up for the sake of making a point that in the case of a conflict of interests it is not the driver (or whatever other individual) but the team that comes first.


I may have had a few, but you are gonna have to go again here, utterly no idea what this is meant to mean lol

... sorry, not until you get cleared from those few that you have had.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 10:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Feb 23, 2014 3:53 am
Posts: 4202
Location: Michigan, USA
Prema wrote:
Next one. Who was the No1 between Kimi and Alonso?

Alonso was. It didn't usually matter, but a few times (Spain being the first one I can remember) we saw Alonso get the favored strategy even when he wasn't ahead.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition
2017: Don't Ask| 2016: 3rd| 2015: 4th
Wins: 3 | Podiums: 11

PF1 Top Three Constructor's Championship
2015 (No Limit Excedrin Racing): CHAMPIONS


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 12:04 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:12 pm
Posts: 5712
Location: Nebraska, USA
Flash2k11 wrote:
Blake wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Prema wrote:
Just the fact that Ferrari signed Kimi one year till, is good enough "evidence" for some folks that it was what Vettel demanded and was granted.

When Vettel came to RBR and started winning, folks were spilling their brains for 4 years how Webber was kept as No2 on the "golden boy's" demand. But Vettel had nothing to do with it, Webber was signing his year-to-year contracts on his own, he had his Mateschitz personal relationship anyway, he was wanted by the team, and he left on his own accord too (but then the folks jumped on Vettel's back for virtually kicking Mark out of RBR and F1 all together with that "multi", this time about).

Then the folks were spilling their brains how Vettel vetoed Kimi and picked Ricciardo. Vettel had no saying there either, the RBR driver program of Helmut Marko worked its way as always.

Then he came to Ferrari, Kimi was there. And now the same narrative keeps on... Vettel is masterminding his No2 teammate that is otherwise useless for the team. And that in the team that is famed for their strict "The team first, not a driver" policy.


Never known Ferrari to be famed for team first policy. Always be known for driver first policy to me.


Then you know next to nothing about Ferrari history. Perhaps you should "hit the books"
;)


Back when the Old Man still ran things, it really was Ferrari first and foremost, and the driver be damned. Unfortunately, a lot of fans (even some 'older' ones now, its been 20 years) only think of Ferrari in Di Montezemolo and Todt's mould, putting Schumacher at the fore (to the obvious benefit of Ferrari, of course) and thus its a pretty prominent viewpoint that Ferrari are set in the ways of a #1 driver policy. Since Schumacher I don't think it has been that clear cut, but I think the benefit of doing things that way (it was a barren spell for a long time pre-Schumacher) are still fresh in the thinking at Maranello. Truth told, it works.


I agree with pretty much what you are saying here, though, I don't think that it was a definitive #1 even for Schumi, I do believe that had one of his teammates come out and taken it to him from the start of the season, that Ferrari would have played things differently. The issue was... there was no one close to Schumi... Rubens was a much better driver than many of today's fans realize, or are wont to admit, it was both his good fortune and bad luck to be teamed with Schumi. Good in that he got to drive one of the top cars, if not the top car, for many years... got to race at or near the front nearly every race and was a critical part of a championship team. Bad luck in that he was not a match for Schumacher, but then neither was any one else.

_________________
Forza Ferrari
WCCs = 16
WDCs = 15


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 4:55 am 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 1:40 pm
Posts: 6476
Exediron wrote:
Prema wrote:
Next one. Who was the No1 between Kimi and Alonso?

Alonso was. It didn't usually matter, but a few times (Spain being the first one I can remember) we saw Alonso get the favored strategy even when he wasn't ahead.

Now, that's vague as vague can possibly go.
In the situation where it does not matter (no WDC title contenders), that would be a mindless decision to make one of them be No2 to another one.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], Jezza13, owenmahamilton and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group