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 Post subject: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 2:55 pm 
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No, I'm not talking about Seb's poops (one way of wording it without getting this msg taken down) :lol:

But do you think, after Danny Ric's comments on Vettel: "For sure, Seb is happy with his team-mate. That's clear to everyone."

and Martin Brundle's claims (taken at face value) that Vettel has supposed clauses of "no Alonso" in his contract.

and Lewis stating that Seb wouldn't want to be his teammate at Mercedes.

and with the poor time he had against Danny Ric that 1 season, and scarpering away the next...


Does Seb fear a fast teammate feeling he might be exposed??


Do people believe that everyone in the paddock believes this too? Does anyone know any insider info that people believe this? Does this make Seb look like a x4 paper WDC (paper - as in not fully deserved due to preferential treatment)?


Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:04 pm 
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With time and wisdom, most top drivers come to desire the situation Vettel is in. A top team and car and a teammate who is firmly behind them in performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:07 pm 
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Exposed? As what?


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:12 pm 
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I'm sure most of the drivers in F1 would love to have a Palmer as a team mate, not sure it's fair particularly to single out Vettel. From a fans perspective it is a shame that we are unlikely to see Vettel in a real in-team battle any time soon though.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Vettel is clever enough to realise that having a clearly inferior team mate gives you a massive edge in winning the WDC. He's also probably aware that another whopping would take his stick down from top 3 driver to top 5 driver. Lowering his earning potential and the chance of future competitive drives.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:28 pm 
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Personally, I don't think Seb was all that bothered by what happened with Ricciardo in 2014. He had just won four WDCs on the bounce and was hoping to become only the second man in history to win five consecutive WDCs. Considering only one man has even had more than one run of consecutive championships (Schumacher, of course) I don't think it would be unfair to suggest that Seb might never get another opportunity to equal/break that particular Schumacher record. I'm sure once it became clear (which it did very quickly) that he wouldn't even be fighting to retain the title, everything else became rather irrelevant for the rest of the year.

As for whether he would fear a more competitive/faster teammate, well of course he would. But it wouldn't be because he fears being exposed. In my opinion, his biggest reason for fearing a competitive/quick teammate is quite simple: it lessens his chances of success. He's in F1 to win titles, and if you've got the machinery to be able to do that - something it is rare for more than one or two teams to have in any given year - you would want to ensure that your teammate is as far behind you as realistically possible to enhance your own chances.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:33 pm 
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Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 3:44 pm 
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mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:28 pm 
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This should end well.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 4:50 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:15 pm 
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I thought at the time he took his bad 2014 season with great stoicism and did not exhibit any bad feelings to Ricciardo as probably other more volatile wdc might have done e.g. witness Alonso's public meltdowns in 2007.

His desire for some say in his driving partner maybe as much as to have someone who he gets on with rather than any overwhelming fear of getting beaten and Alonso has already publicly disparaged his Red Bull achievements so I don't see that as an agreeable harmonious partnership from the off with Alonso already itching to prove a point.

If he was that frightened he could have insisted that Kimi get a 3 year contract like him but instead he will have to face Leclerc and probably Verstappen as well in the last two years of his contract. I don't think Vettel is that complicated and although having a larger vocabulary than Kimi is basically the same as him, he just openly speaks his mind and means what he says with no real hidden agenda. After all the amount of times he has publicly embarrassed himself is not a sign of a great schemer and manipulator rather than of just someone who wears their heart on their sleeve.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Sorry bud but that's not accurate at all. Alonso was complaining to the pit wall 2 races into Hamilton's equal status period when he couldn't get past him in Indianapolis. Alonso was rumored to have been a big factor in Trulli's dismissal at Renault in 2004 actually. He saw during that time (before even getting to McLaren) that having Flavio behind him in that way was a critical advantage. He has sought that everywhere he has gone. The lack of a fuss at Ferrari was mostly down to Raikkonen never being anywhere near him either on Saturday or Sunday. That was one of the most lopsided teammate battles I've ever seen.

As for Seb, he left the year after Dan got there...The bottom line is that Hamilton embraced Jenson Button joining the team and even campaigned for him to be re-signed before Mclaren finished the deal. He also actively refuted any suggestion that Mercedes should get rid of Rosberg. I have heard him this season singing a completely different tune though and it's purely down to 2016 IMO. He finally saw in a very irrefutable way how having to fight with a strong teammate can cost you dearly. The truth is that seasons like 2007, 2010 and 2012 should have driven this home already but, as I said, he seems to have been a slow learner in this regard.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 5:52 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Sorry bud but that's not accurate at all. Alonso was complaining to the pit wall 2 races into Hamilton's equal status period when he couldn't get past him in Indianapolis. Alonso was rumored to have been a big factor in Trulli's dismissal at Renault in 2004 actually. He saw during that time (before even getting to McLaren) that having Flavio behind him in that way was a critical advantage. He has sought that everywhere he has gone. The lack of a fuss at Ferrari was mostly down to Raikkonen never being anywhere near him either on Saturday or Sunday. That was one of the most lopsided teammate battles I've ever seen.

As for Seb, he left the year after Dan got there...The bottom line is that Hamilton embraced Jenson Button joining the team and even campaigned for him to be re-signed before Mclaren finished the deal. He also actively refuted any suggestion that Mercedes should get rid of Rosberg. I have heard him this season singing a completely different tune though and it's purely down to 2016 IMO. He finally saw in a very irrefutable way how having to fight with a strong teammate can cost you dearly. The truth is that seasons like 2007, 2010 and 2012 should have driven this home already but, as I said, he seems to have been a slow learner in this regard.


Complaining on the radio is pretty standard for team mates stuck behind each other, it was hardly a meltdown was the point. That only came later and not because the preferential treatment was taken away specifically.

I've no idea of the ins and outs of his Renault time, I know Trulli embarrassed Michelin and Renault in France and that's when the relationship started going sour though and he was using Toyota's interest to try and get a big pay bump from Renault at the same time which went down like a lead balloon with Flavio.

That being said Alonso learning the importance of No.1 is probably true enough but it's not something that a driver really needs to learn considering it's known importance through history. It's also not true he sought it everywhere he's gone, he doesn't have it at McLaren and he chose money over options in his Ferrari contract extension in 2011, but that was once he knew he had Massa covered of course.

Seb did leave but I honestly think that was just because the Ferrari seat opened up and he had a clause that allowed it so jumped on it. I don't think he'd have joined McHonda or anything so getting out wasn't the reason for me. I believe Lewis doesn't seek it btw, I was just saying he embraced Heikki fine. He knew it's importance perfectly well as it helped him in his first title.

I think all drivers secretly prefer this situation, I mentioned it in the unpopular thread, much for the reasons you've talked about but it became a dirty word after Schumacher and drivers say all manner of rubbish in public about it these days whereas before it was seen as a reward for being the best and perfectly natural in a non spec series where it's hard enough to get the best car never mind having to deal with your team mate too.

Autobiographies will be interesting in the future for sure. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:55 pm 
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mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:00 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:14 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.


Well, that's the urban myth part. Unless you know more.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:21 pm 
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What is with this '14 talk for Vettel to people who have an axe to grind, the rules didn't change for '15, but the Vettel that turned up at Ferrari was different to the one who was at Redbull in '14.

Other drivers talk about Vettel's situation but what he does not do is talk about them.

For someone like Ricciardo who is having his donkey handed to him and he's out there talking about someone else, asides '14 which is starting to look like a fluke now, he has nothing else.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.


Not that I'm aware, do you know different?. If so share.

Again, source?.

More mind reading poker.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:32 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Vettel is clever enough to realise that having a clearly inferior team mate gives you a massive edge in winning the WDC. He's also probably aware that another whopping would take his stick down from top 3 driver to top 5 driver. Lowering his earning potential and the chance of future competitive drives.


:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.


Proof please... or just more baloney

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:41 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 5:57 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

Yes indeed, some people perhaps need to invent reasons why their favourite driver is behind in the championship whilst driving the equal or even superior car?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:45 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?


Although true, don't you think that Mercedes have just been transparent in their way of running the team, whereas Ferrari have just screwed Kimi in pit stop timings to ensure Vettel came out on top. So far Mercedes have only made team orders to improve the team result, as demonstrated in Hungary with the swap back when it didn't work. Ferrari's way of doing things has undoubtedly cost Kimi and them some points.
I have no problem with what Ferrari are doing by the way as it makes perfect sense for the WDC, but let's not just ignore the obvious to suit the narrative.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:00 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

Although true, don't you think that Mercedes have just been transparent in their way of running the team, whereas Ferrari have just screwed Kimi in pit stop timings to ensure Vettel came out on top. So far Mercedes have only made team orders to improve the team result, as demonstrated in Hungary with the swap back when it didn't work. Ferrari's way of doing things has undoubtedly cost Kimi and them some points.
I have no problem with what Ferrari are doing by the way as it makes perfect sense for the WDC, but let's not just ignore the obvious to suit the narrative.

There's been at least one time (China) this year that it would have benefited the team to order Kimi out of the way, and they didn't do it. Ferrari certainly does give Vettel priority, but he doesn't have the sort of status some people ascribe to him, where Kimi isn't allowed to race him at all. Similarly in Monaco, they gave Vettel the chance to get ahead on strategy, but they didn't force Kimi to let him past.

I'm not in any way denying that Vettel has the higher priority - that's clearly true. But Lewis also benefits from team orders and a weaker teammate, while he and his fans would seemingly prefer if people ignored that inconvenient fact.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:17 am 
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Seb is a born winner. There's nothing wrong with that. I don't get why people get so heated at the suggestion that he would want to gain every single advantage he can, including keeping a teammate who will maximise his WDC chances.

Quote:
I'm not in any way denying that Vettel has the higher priority - that's clearly true. But Lewis also benefits from team orders and a weaker teammate, while he and his fans would seemingly prefer if people ignored that inconvenient fact.


Hamilton has not benefited from team orders this season at all, at a time where it doesn't also benefit the team. I'm not suggesting he never will, in fact I fully suspect that we go in to the remaining races with Merc knowing they will do all they can to support Hamilton's WDC chances providing its not at the absolute mauling of the team result (ie Bottas 2nd and Hamilton 5th, Bottas drops back to elevate Hamilton to 4th... not gonna happen).


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:28 am 
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This year is apparently the year where the difference between "team orders that benefit the team" and "team orders that don't" is becoming very important :)

Has there been an actual team order against Kimi, though? He wasn't ordered aside in China, Monaco was strategy rather than him getting an order, and Hungary was a lack of team order. But actual team orders?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:11 am 
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mds wrote:
This year is apparently the year where the difference between "team orders that benefit the team" and "team orders that don't" is becoming very important :)

Has there been an actual team order against Kimi, though? He wasn't ordered aside in China, Monaco was strategy rather than him getting an order, and Hungary was a lack of team order. But actual team orders?


I think China is a red herring here. The race was right at the start of the season and Kimi was being held up by Ricciardo at the time. Would have been a tough sell to have got him to move over.
Ferrari were probably happy to make the change during the pit stop phase but Seb took the matter into his own hands.
Like I say it makes perfect sense to me to do this from Ferrari's point of view. Kimi isn't going to challenge for the WDC. Seb is.
Mercedes have in fact this season shot themselves in the foot trying to be fair to both drivers.
This isn't the two horse intra team battle they had from 2015-2016.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:17 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
mds wrote:
This year is apparently the year where the difference between "team orders that benefit the team" and "team orders that don't" is becoming very important :)

Has there been an actual team order against Kimi, though? He wasn't ordered aside in China, Monaco was strategy rather than him getting an order, and Hungary was a lack of team order. But actual team orders?


I think China is a red herring here. The race was right at the start of the season and Kimi was being held up by Ricciardo at the time. Would have been a tough sell to have got him to move over.


It's not a red herring, it's a factual observation: Vettel was behind Raikkonen who couldn't pass Ricciardo, they had the chance to swap and let Vettel try, they didn't. They could have even made an arrangement of letting Vettel through with the promise of reswapping if Vettel wouldn't succeed, but they didn't.

It's getting a bit tiresome to read how Mercedes' team orders are not really counted because "they benefitted the team" and Ferrari's lack of team orders is not really counted because of some other external factors. Fact is Mercedes have, from the go, used team orders and Ferrari, to this day, haven't.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:31 am 
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mds wrote:
This year is apparently the year where the difference between "team orders that benefit the team" and "team orders that don't" is becoming very important :)

Has there been an actual team order against Kimi, though? He wasn't ordered aside in China, Monaco was strategy rather than him getting an order, and Hungary was a lack of team order. But actual team orders?


I don't understand how its never been important. Surely fans can recognise the difference between the team pushing for the best team result, and the team favouring a driver? Hell, if they manage to do both at once good for them.

I do agree with your wider sentiment, but I'd also argue it works both ways. There are a relatively equal amount of people criticising Merc for favouring Hamilton (when they haven't yet), as there are people criticising Ferrari for favouring Vettel (when they haven't yet).

Of course behind closed doors there could be all sorts of favouring going on, but Hamilton's relative dominance over Bottas recently and Vettel's total dominance over Kimi - and even when Kimi looks like he'll have the pace to challenge, something always goes wrong for him - has made team orders a bit of a moot point.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:45 am 
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Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".



Blake, it really wasn't my intent...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate."

Other posters turned it into bashing but that clearly wasn't my intent. I started the topic by referencing a Danny Ric quote, Martin Brundle commentary and Lewis Hamilton's previous stance.

I wanted to open the floor on this, and ask for any knowledge or inside info.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:53 am 
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mds wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
mds wrote:
This year is apparently the year where the difference between "team orders that benefit the team" and "team orders that don't" is becoming very important :)

Has there been an actual team order against Kimi, though? He wasn't ordered aside in China, Monaco was strategy rather than him getting an order, and Hungary was a lack of team order. But actual team orders?


I think China is a red herring here. The race was right at the start of the season and Kimi was being held up by Ricciardo at the time. Would have been a tough sell to have got him to move over.


It's not a red herring, it's a factual observation: Vettel was behind Raikkonen who couldn't pass Ricciardo, they had the chance to swap and let Vettel try, they didn't. They could have even made an arrangement of letting Vettel through with the promise of reswapping if Vettel wouldn't succeed, but they didn't.

It's getting a bit tiresome to read how Mercedes' team orders are not really counted because "they benefitted the team" and Ferrari's lack of team orders is not really counted because of some other external factors. Fact is Mercedes have, from the go, used team orders and Ferrari, to this day, haven't.


One should learn to read. I didn't say that Mercedes team orders don't count?
Ferrari haven't used blatant team orders but have quite blatantly manipulated the running order. You may bury your head as far into the sand as you wish but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

At no point have Mercedes ordered Bottas aside when he was actively challenging the driver in front. That was the case in China. That's why I believe it doesn't bare any comparison with the instances where Mercedes have swapped their drivers. Not all situations are exactly the same. You need to fully analyse the exact details of a situation before trying to compare Apples to Oranges.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:25 am 
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Good timing with this thread when Lauda just came out basically stating how Hamilton is to be a clear No.1 in Mercedes from this race on. :]


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:40 am 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
One should learn to read. I didn't say that Mercedes team orders don't count?


"One" can read fine, thank you. A clear difference is being made between these two "types" of TO's, and it is used to a certain extent in an apologetic way for Mercedes.

Quote:
Ferrari haven't used blatant team orders but have quite blatantly manipulated the running order. You may bury your head as far into the sand as you wish but it doesn't mean it hasn't happened.


If memory serves the only "blatant" way of manipulating is the questionable Monaco strategy, and that is rather suspicion than fact. Read Kimi's comments on it and you'll see that it is not fact at all.
But then as I learned in earlier discussion I don't get to say Kimi is an apolitical person who speaks his mind, so probably this one isn't one that will be taken at face value.

They didn't do anything in Silverstone to hamper Kimi's chances of finishing ahead of Vettel. They didn't get him out of Sebs way in China. The only thing that's in the air is the questionable Monaco strategy.

Quote:
Not all situations are exactly the same. You need to fully analyse the exact details of a situation before trying to compare Apples to Oranges.


That not all situations are exactly the same is exactly my point - if people want to find a difference between two situations, then they're always going to succeed. And it's tiresome that in case of Mercedes doing it the apologists are in full force to highlight these differences whereas when Ferrari doesn't even speak out a TO and have made one questionable call (a same call RBR did - are they favoring Ricciardo over Verstappen then?) they are apparently THE ones who are influencing races and the ones Mercedes should react to in the future.

I mean, come on.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:52 am 
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olly-44 wrote:
Blake wrote:
Covalent wrote:
This should end well.


:thumbup:

it may, or may not have been the OP's intent, but this thread is destined to be another Vettel bash complete with un-supported rumors and "facts".



Blake, it really wasn't my intent...

"Now this isn't a topic on if Vettel credentials as WDC or if he is a great driver or not (I'm not a big fan but I still think the guy's quality) but it's more focused on his potential fear of having a fast teammate."

Other posters turned it into bashing but that clearly wasn't my intent. I started the topic by referencing a Danny Ric quote, Martin Brundle commentary and Lewis Hamilton's previous stance.

I wanted to open the floor on this, and ask for any knowledge or inside info.


The bash part could potentially be seen in this choice of the term "potential fear" that potentially implicitly stands vs. those other two main rivals of his, Alonso and Hamilton, as potentially not having such "potential fear". A choice of other wording such as "potential reasoning/preference" could potentially eliminate such since it would be not so potentially charged then. I mean, it would be but reasonable to any of them not to wish/want to have a fast teammate, no? Hamilton lost the title to his fast teammate Rosberg, and he arguably lost one title more due to his fast teammate Alonso taking points of him.


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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:56 am 
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Rockie wrote:
What is with this '14 talk for Vettel to people who have an axe to grind, the rules didn't change for '15, but the Vettel that turned up at Ferrari was different to the one who was at Redbull in '14.

Other drivers talk about Vettel's situation but what he does not do is talk about them.

For someone like Ricciardo who is having his donkey handed to him and he's out there talking about someone else, asides '14 which is starting to look like a fluke now, he has nothing else.

That's because unlike Vettel he can't choose who is teammate will be.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:59 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
mds wrote:
Earlier this season, Hamilton has also stated he'd prefer to keep Bottas in the team instead of Alonso coming in.

The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming.

These drivers, they don't fear each other. They firmly believe they're the best.

The difference is how early in their careers they embrace the practical reality of having a strong teammate vs. having one that is clearly weaker. There are two main advantages to have a weaker teammate. The first is that you will maximize your points haul in the WDC standings instead of taking points off of each other. The second is that there is almost always greater harmony in a team with a clear 1-2 status rather than a McLaren 2007, Merc 2014-2016 or Mclaren 1988-89 situation. It's no coincidence that the most intense and poisonous title battles are the ones between teammates.

Anyway, Alonso embraced the advantage of clear #1 status from a very young age. By the time he was teamed with Jarno, he had already begun to seek it and we all know about the meltdown he had when Lewis was given equal status a few races into 2007.

Vettel never seemed to need to worry much about it at Red Bull because he was a better driver than Mark and, after 2010, had much better reliability. Many also theorized that he actually was receiving some form of preference but I never saw any concrete proof of that. I think 2014 might have shaken him a bit and he seems very intent on keeping things the way they are now at Ferrari.

This year is the first year that I've really seen Hamilton seek/embrace #1 status. I guess he's a slow learner in this regard. For years he touted wanting to race strong teammates and he has raced against 3 different WDC teammates over his career but I think 2016 drove the lesson home that things can go against you in those scenarios.


Lewis embraced the Heikki situation fully in his 2nd season. He just didn't kick up a fuss when he was replaced, but neither did Alonso when Kimi was brought in or Seb when Dan was.

Everything else is private and behind closed doors and we get drip fed tidbits and BS, choosing to believe the parts that fit for us and dismissing those that don't.

(Bit misleading about the reason Alonso flipped in 07 too, he didn't kick up a fuss post Monaco and the decision to go to alternate weekends until Lewis started messing around on his weekend in Hungary. Then he went nuclear yeah).

Alonso didn't kick up a fuss when Kimi was brought in at Ferrari?

He hated it because he knew Kimi wouldn't be his lap dog, that's kind of strange now given Kimi's situation.

Vettel never thought that Ricciardo would be giving him any problems.


Not that I'm aware, do you know different?. If so share.

Again, source?.

More mind reading poker.

A source for what?

You never heard Alonso's constant criticism of Kimi or do you need a source for that?

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:04 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

Wow I'm not being civilised whilst you ascertain that Kimi has never helped Vettel this season, you obviously have not heard what some F1 pundits have to say about Kimi, one of them not British but he's from a former British colony so that probably classes him as being biased.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:06 am 
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Covalent wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
The difference is that Vettel doesn't feel the need to comment on what he thinks other drivers prefer or don't prefer, while Hamilton does. People start to believe it and the urban myth is forming

Vettel doesn't need to say those things he just puts it in his contract.

Stating things you have absolutely no proof for in an authoritative tone may be enough to win the White House, but that doesn't make it acceptable for a civilized forum. Nobody has ever proved that Vettel has anything in his contract to make his teammates into subservient #2s - and indeed, 2014 would argue that he does not have that privilege - so why go around stating it as a fact?

The truth of the matter is that Hamilton has had just as many #2 drivers for teammates as Vettel has, but he's the one who talks a lot of tough talk about how he wants equal status. And if anything, he's quicker to get on the radio and ask to be let past. Need I remind you that between Hamilton and Vettel, only one of them has had a teammate ordered out of his way this season?

Yes indeed, some people perhaps need to invent reasons why their favourite driver is behind in the championship whilst driving the equal or even superior car?

The history of F1 shows that having no competition from your teammate is the best way to go about winning the WDC.

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 Post subject: Re: Vettel & Number 2s
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:10 am 
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mds wrote:
This year is apparently the year where the difference between "team orders that benefit the team" and "team orders that don't" is becoming very important :)

Has there been an actual team order against Kimi, though? He wasn't ordered aside in China, Monaco was strategy rather than him getting an order, and Hungary was a lack of team order. But actual team orders?

Hungary was the reverse of Monaco and the team ensured that Vettel won both races.

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