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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Pineapple does belong on pizza.



Heathen ..... Burn the witch :D


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 8:47 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
In the same mould: Hamilton is insecure and that's why he projects his feelings towards having a very strong teammate on Vettel.

:D

Oh you're dragging Hamilton into this who held his own against Alonso, we will ever see Vettel against a similar caliber driver, maybe we did with Ricciardo?


Well, it seems like I managed to post a reply that complies to the topic at hand.

No you replied in that way knowing I'm a Hamilton fan.


You're painfully sensitive mate. Get a grip.

Well let's face it you didn't exactly address my post at all.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:12 pm 
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I posted an unpopular opinion. Carry on now.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Pineapple does belong on pizza.

No


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:26 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Pineapple does belong on pizza.
I'm OK with that.
Replace pineapple with seafood and I'll then cry controversial...

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Banana Man wrote:
Pineapple does belong on pizza.

GET OUT!!!! :x :x :x


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mds wrote:
OK. Well, in that case: I think that is a huge overestimation of how good the Lotus-Renault was. :)


Possibly but you only need a small upgrade on Kimi and that car is winning multiple races.


:thumbup:


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:21 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Pineapple does belong on pizza.


100% Agree!

Just like beetroot belongs on burgers


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 6:45 am 
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Banana Man wrote:
Pineapple does belong on pizza.

Have to agree. I'm pro Pineapple.

Mushrooms, on the other hand, well, those horrible bloody things just need to be poisoned out of existence.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:00 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
As much as most people know the importance the car makes in the sport, I truly believe that it is almost the be all and end all as far as winning the driver's championship is concerned. We only have to look at a single race this year when driver A is suddenly off the pace. It's pretty much always down to the team not quite getting the car sorted. There's nothing the driver can do about it.


I was really tempted to put the driver is the least important member of a championship winning team but there are a few examples in close championships and only championships fought between team mates which stopped me.

But I do think because people are more drawn to drivers than teams we build up their importance far too much. TJI,HPC,EBD,DD and the mass damper are the most important factors recently and not one of them was created by a driver.


I don't really thinks it's true. I think most title winning cars would not have won the championships they won if you put the two worst drivers on the grid in them. I actually think the difference a good driver makes if often under played and we get to caught up in thinking car A is better than car B because car A finished ahead, without contemplating who was driving and the difference they make.

Ok the last three years Merc have been dominant but before that, put an average driver in Hamilton's Mclaren in 08 and Massa gets the championship. Put an average driver in Alonso's Renault's in 05 or 06 and they wouldn't even compete for the championship etc


I'm not saying any of the drivers could win in the best car without issues, Just look at the years Red Bull were dominant for instance. Was it Vettel that made the difference or would LH, FA and a host of other names have won the championship that year? I'm thinking yes as the only person they had to beat regularly was their team mate.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:25 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
As much as most people know the importance the car makes in the sport, I truly believe that it is almost the be all and end all as far as winning the driver's championship is concerned. We only have to look at a single race this year when driver A is suddenly off the pace. It's pretty much always down to the team not quite getting the car sorted. There's nothing the driver can do about it.


I was really tempted to put the driver is the least important member of a championship winning team but there are a few examples in close championships and only championships fought between team mates which stopped me.

But I do think because people are more drawn to drivers than teams we build up their importance far too much. TJI,HPC,EBD,DD and the mass damper are the most important factors recently and not one of them was created by a driver.


I don't really thinks it's true. I think most title winning cars would not have won the championships they won if you put the two worst drivers on the grid in them. I actually think the difference a good driver makes if often under played and we get to caught up in thinking car A is better than car B because car A finished ahead, without contemplating who was driving and the difference they make.

Ok the last three years Merc have been dominant but before that, put an average driver in Hamilton's Mclaren in 08 and Massa gets the championship. Put an average driver in Alonso's Renault's in 05 or 06 and they wouldn't even compete for the championship etc


I'm not saying any of the drivers could win in the best car without issues, Just look at the years Red Bull were dominant for instance. Was it Vettel that made the difference or would LH, FA and a host of other names have won the championship that year? I'm thinking yes as the only person they had to beat regularly was their team mate.


Only I think in 2013 you could argue anyone from the bottom 10 drivers could have won the WDC. Even then it's a stretch seeing as Webber didn't finish 2nd.

And a car with a massive advantage is unusual, last 3 years aside most of the time only a very small clutch of drivers could have won the WDC in the car that won it. Take Vettel's 2011 Red Bull take anyone outside perhaps the top 4/5 drivers of the day put them in that car and I don't think that car is taking the championship.

Obviously the top drivers in F1 have a similar performance so form aside they would achieve results that would be fairly similar to each other but the difference from a best driver to an average driver makes a huge difference. Less so now than 10 years ago, the field is more spread out now, but the difference is still there.

The Renault team is a good illustration of this. If they had two Palmer level drivers they would look like a back marker with one of the slowest cars. Two Hulkenberg's and they would be 5th in the WCC looking up at FI for best of the rest. And Hulk isn't an elite level driver. If Renault had the Red Bull lineup I don't think it's inconceivable they could be 4th in the WCC rather than 8th. That's a massive difference the drivers are making.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:31 pm 
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Hamilton and Vettel are both great drivers but Hamilton is faster. Some people use the cars they drive to disprove that, but imho if they were both in the same cars Hamilton would make Vettel look like a Rosberg. The problem with Lewis is that he is not always on it, but when his back is against the wall I don't believe anyone can live with him in the same car. Maybe Max, maybe Alonso, but I don't see anyone else doing it.

If Mclaren can secure a Mercedes customer deal they should drop Honda now, let them go to Toro Rosso and provide them with gearboxes. While Honda should be in F1, they are just not ready to compete at the front, not unlike Renault.

The best driver pairing in F1 is at Redbull, but Max is better than Dan. Max will also be the best driver on the grid in a few years. Hopefully he will have the right car and can show how good he is.

Hamilton is going to find a way to win this year's WDC. It will not be easy, as Ferrari and Vettel are a great challenge, but I believe Lewis is going to hold on, because again; his back is against the wall.

I don't mind DRS, I think it does what it was intended to do. Overtakes are still not easy. Without DRS there would be virtually zero overtaking. I don't get why it's so bad really, never have.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.



It's certainly more clouded but Federer has as many slams where he goes out in the quarters as Hamilton has off par races.

TBF Federer is the only man that can effect his performance where as an F1 driver off the pace can be for any number of reasons. I do think it's often to easily attributed to the balance of the car not being right or some other handling issue.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:59 pm 
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mds wrote:
I posted an unpopular opinion. Carry on now.

Why didn't you post it as a stand alone post rather than a reply to my post?

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 3:49 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 4:08 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
I posted an unpopular opinion. Carry on now.

Why didn't you post it as a stand alone post rather than a reply to my post?


Because it was "in the same mould".

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

I think it would still be considered better than Red Bull just not the equal of Mercedes. In fact it would not be unlike a rerun of Kimi's Lotus years with the odd win here and there. Kimi's just not wdc material unless a competitive car and its tyres are EXACTLY to his liking.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

With Vettel not driving for Ferrari Kimi would have won 2 races the same amount as Bottas, maybe the Mercedes is not a top car either?

Meanwhile Red Bull have little chance of winning a race.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:41 pm 
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Hamilton is a poor poet.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 8:43 pm 
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Vettel wants Raikkonen to remain his team mate principally because he likes him as a person and they are good, loyal, friends.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Assuming it happens, McLaren switching from Honda to Renault engines next year will be looked back on as a mistake.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Asphalt_World wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
As much as most people know the importance the car makes in the sport, I truly believe that it is almost the be all and end all as far as winning the driver's championship is concerned. We only have to look at a single race this year when driver A is suddenly off the pace. It's pretty much always down to the team not quite getting the car sorted. There's nothing the driver can do about it.


I was really tempted to put the driver is the least important member of a championship winning team but there are a few examples in close championships and only championships fought between team mates which stopped me.

But I do think because people are more drawn to drivers than teams we build up their importance far too much. TJI,HPC,EBD,DD and the mass damper are the most important factors recently and not one of them was created by a driver.


I don't really thinks it's true. I think most title winning cars would not have won the championships they won if you put the two worst drivers on the grid in them. I actually think the difference a good driver makes if often under played and we get to caught up in thinking car A is better than car B because car A finished ahead, without contemplating who was driving and the difference they make.

Ok the last three years Merc have been dominant but before that, put an average driver in Hamilton's Mclaren in 08 and Massa gets the championship. Put an average driver in Alonso's Renault's in 05 or 06 and they wouldn't even compete for the championship etc


I'm not saying any of the drivers could win in the best car without issues, Just look at the years Red Bull were dominant for instance. Was it Vettel that made the difference or would LH, FA and a host of other names have won the championship that year? I'm thinking yes as the only person they had to beat regularly was their team mate.

If Vettel's titles were down to the car then why did his team-mate not finish 2nd on any occasion?


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:53 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Assuming it happens, McLaren switching from Honda to Renault engines next year will be looked back on as a mistake.


I have a horrible feeling this will be true.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:06 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks


If Ricciardo and Verstappen had been Ferrari drivers this season, we would have been talking about a dominant Ferrari.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:31 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks


If Ricciardo and Verstappen had been Ferrari drivers this season, we would have been talking about a dominant Ferrari.

Quite possibly, yes. That's the point. I think top drivers can make quite a substantial difference


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:33 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Assuming it happens, McLaren switching from Honda to Renault engines next year will be looked back on as a mistake.

Fully agree. I can see them moving to Renault and Toro Rosso switching to Honda. Then Honda coming good next year and Red Bull taking over from TR as the Honda Works team. Meanwhile, McLaren trudge along at the top of the midfield with an average Renault engine


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

With Vettel not driving for Ferrari Kimi would have won 2 races the same amount as Bottas, maybe the Mercedes is not a top car either?

Meanwhile Red Bull have little chance of winning a race.

2 races out of 12 so far, not exactly setting the world alight. Point is looking at Kimi's performance you wouldn't say that the Ferrari was on a par with the Mercedes, which illustrates that a top driver can still make a fairly significant difference


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:39 pm 
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mas wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

I think it would still be considered better than Red Bull just not the equal of Mercedes. In fact it would not be unlike a rerun of Kimi's Lotus years with the odd win here and there. Kimi's just not wdc material unless a competitive car and its tyres are EXACTLY to his liking.

Bottom line it's doubtful the car would be rated as highly as it is now, which suggest that top drivers can and do make a pretty big difference. Obviously there's a limit as to what they can do, or else we'd be seeing Alonso haul the McLaren onto the podium, but nevertheless you can see why they are in demand


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

This is about as laughable as it gets.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:58 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

This is about as laughable as it gets.


It really isn't. Taking the Mercedes duo at Belgium last week is a perfect example of the difference between what many would call a tier one and tier two driver. The tier one driver gets pole with the best car, while the tier two driver gets beaten by the second best car driven by a tier one driver (a consistent occurrence this season). The tier two driver also gets beaten by both a Ferrari and Red Bull after the safety car restart, lacking that racecraft that only few drivers in F1 have. Hamilton finishes first with no problems. Bottas, with the best car, is 15 points worse off than his teammate.

Alonso isn't paid 35 million to be a marketing tool for McLaren. McLaren want him in their team, because they know that even if they have a slightly competitive car, Alonso will be there to maximise it to its full potential. The same can't be said about Bottas, Perez or Raikkonen for example.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Fri Sep 01, 2017 11:59 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

This is about as laughable as it gets.

How so?

With two drivers like Kimi in the Ferrari, Mercedes would have won 9 races to Ferrari's 3 (I'll be generous and say neither copy of Kimi would have rammed Hamilton behind the safety car, so Baku probably goes their way). Hamilton would have a vast championship lead, and the Ferrari would look no better than it did in 2015.

Kimi is almost half a second slower than Vettel on race pace. That's a lot over the course of a Grand Prix, and it's why Vettel is leading the WDC while Ferrari isn't in contention for the WCC.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:13 am 
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A few unpopular opinions I have:

-As Mikeyg pointed out, the removal of gravel traps has hindered the spectacle of the sport profoundly.

-There is a line where F1 becomes too safe.

-Magnussen is the least respectful driver in F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:28 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Asphalt_World wrote:
Thing is, it wasn't many races ago this season where Hamilton had a bit of an off weekend. All the talk was that they hadn't quite gone the right way with the car since FP1. This kind of shows the significance of the car when we are talking about a few hundredths of a second making the difference between a good or bad weekend.

There are clearly better drivers, don't get me wrong, but I don't think they are as significant as some people think. Certainly not like the difference between the humans in some other sports. Federer is a great tennis player and no tennis equipment has made any discernable difference there.

I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

This is about as laughable as it gets.


How? With 2 Kimi level drivers in a Ferrari we would be talking about another dominant Merc season.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:33 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

This is about as laughable as it gets.

How so?

With two drivers like Kimi in the Ferrari, Mercedes would have won 9 races to Ferrari's 3 (I'll be generous and say neither copy of Kimi would have rammed Hamilton behind the safety car, so Baku probably goes their way). Hamilton would have a vast championship lead, and the Ferrari would look no better than it did in 2015.

Kimi is almost half a second slower than Vettel on race pace. That's a lot over the course of a Grand Prix, and it's why Vettel is leading the WDC while Ferrari isn't in contention for the WCC.

Kimi is also one of the worst drivers on the grid today. If you replace Vettal (a top 5 driver) with perhaps an average F1 driver (someone who is 8-12th best on the grid like perhaps Sainz or Perez) we would see the Ferrari in a similar position in the constructor's race. Kimi would have more points than he does (it's amazing how people don't seem to realize how many times his strategy has been sacrificed) and the average F1 driver would have a points haul similar to Bottas.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 12:36 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
I think a top driver is worth more than you think. Take this year's Ferrari: if Vettel hadn't been in it, our perception of its capabilities would probably be in the ballpark of where Red Bull is now; competent, better than the rest, but not quite as good as the Merc. And I'm basing this on Kimi's performances. You can really see why the best drivers are paid the big bucks

This is about as laughable as it gets.

How so?

With two drivers like Kimi in the Ferrari, Mercedes would have won 9 races to Ferrari's 3 (I'll be generous and say neither copy of Kimi would have rammed Hamilton behind the safety car, so Baku probably goes their way). Hamilton would have a vast championship lead, and the Ferrari would look no better than it did in 2015.

Kimi is almost half a second slower than Vettel on race pace. That's a lot over the course of a Grand Prix, and it's why Vettel is leading the WDC while Ferrari isn't in contention for the WCC.

Kimi is also one of the worst drivers on the grid today. If you replace Vettal (a top 5 driver) with perhaps an average F1 driver (someone who is 8-12th best on the grid like perhaps Sainz or Perez) we would see the Ferrari in a similar position in the constructor's race. Kimi would have more points than he does (it's amazing how people don't seem to realize how many times his strategy has been sacrificed) and the average F1 driver would have a points haul similar to Bottas.[/
Equote]

How is this relavent? Zoue said two Kimi level drivers, not two average drivers.


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 1:08 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
With two drivers like Kimi in the Ferrari, Mercedes would have won 9 races to Ferrari's 3 (I'll be generous and say neither copy of Kimi would have rammed Hamilton behind the safety car, so Baku probably goes their way). Hamilton would have a vast championship lead, and the Ferrari would look no better than it did in 2015.

Kimi is almost half a second slower than Vettel on race pace. That's a lot over the course of a Grand Prix, and it's why Vettel is leading the WDC while Ferrari isn't in contention for the WCC.

Kimi is also one of the worst drivers on the grid today. If you replace Vettal (a top 5 driver) with perhaps an average F1 driver (someone who is 8-12th best on the grid like perhaps Sainz or Perez) we would see the Ferrari in a similar position in the constructor's race. Kimi would have more points than he does (it's amazing how people don't seem to realize how many times his strategy has been sacrificed) and the average F1 driver would have a points haul similar to Bottas.

Let's assume you have a driver who is consistently 2 tenths slower than Vettel, both in qualifying and the race.

Australia: Wouldn't have been close enough to Hamilton to make the overcut work, but still finishes 2nd (barely).
China: No one was anywhere near Vettel, so still finishes 2nd, albeit almost 20 seconds off the lead.
Bahrain: At 2 tenths a lap slower, Hamilton catches him and passes him for the lead; finishes 2nd.
Russia: Finishes 2nd, but instead of hounding Bottas for the lead, both drivers are about 10 seconds off the lead.
Spain: Still 2nd - Ricciardo was over a minute behind.
Monaco: The Vettel substitute would have lost this one to Kimi, but Ferrari still wins.
Canada: Instead of finishing 4th, the substitute is 6th, just ahead of Kimi and behind both Force Indias.
Baku: If you assume the Vettel substitute wouldn't have rammed Lewis and got the penalty, Ferrari probably actually wins this one.
Austria: Not only does the substitute not win, he's jumped by both Ricciardo and Hamilton, finishing 4th ahead of Kimi.
Britain: This was a really bad performance by Vettel, so I'll be nice and say the substitute gets the same result.
Hungary: Without Vettel's pace, Ferrari is forced to swap the drivers and gets a 1-3 instead of a 1-2, with Kimi winning.
Spa: The substitute's slower pace puts him into Ricciardo's grip with about two laps to go, finishing 3rd.

So with a driver consistently 2 tenths a lap slower than Vettel, we get - instead of 220-213, as the points actually stand - 185-236, in favor of Lewis. Lewis has 7 wins to his 1. I don't think anybody would be talking about the cars being equal, or the Ferrari possibly ahead.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:26 am 
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Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
With two drivers like Kimi in the Ferrari, Mercedes would have won 9 races to Ferrari's 3 (I'll be generous and say neither copy of Kimi would have rammed Hamilton behind the safety car, so Baku probably goes their way). Hamilton would have a vast championship lead, and the Ferrari would look no better than it did in 2015.

Kimi is almost half a second slower than Vettel on race pace. That's a lot over the course of a Grand Prix, and it's why Vettel is leading the WDC while Ferrari isn't in contention for the WCC.

Kimi is also one of the worst drivers on the grid today. If you replace Vettal (a top 5 driver) with perhaps an average F1 driver (someone who is 8-12th best on the grid like perhaps Sainz or Perez) we would see the Ferrari in a similar position in the constructor's race. Kimi would have more points than he does (it's amazing how people don't seem to realize how many times his strategy has been sacrificed) and the average F1 driver would have a points haul similar to Bottas.

Let's assume you have a driver who is consistently 2 tenths slower than Vettel, both in qualifying and the race.

Australia: Wouldn't have been close enough to Hamilton to make the overcut work, but still finishes 2nd (barely).
China: No one was anywhere near Vettel, so still finishes 2nd, albeit almost 20 seconds off the lead.
Bahrain: At 2 tenths a lap slower, Hamilton catches him and passes him for the lead; finishes 2nd.
Russia: Finishes 2nd, but instead of hounding Bottas for the lead, both drivers are about 10 seconds off the lead.
Spain: Still 2nd - Ricciardo was over a minute behind.
Monaco: The Vettel substitute would have lost this one to Kimi, but Ferrari still wins.
Canada: Instead of finishing 4th, the substitute is 6th, just ahead of Kimi and behind both Force Indias.
Baku: If you assume the Vettel substitute wouldn't have rammed Lewis and got the penalty, Ferrari probably actually wins this one.
Austria: Not only does the substitute not win, he's jumped by both Ricciardo and Hamilton, finishing 4th ahead of Kimi.
Britain: This was a really bad performance by Vettel, so I'll be nice and say the substitute gets the same result.
Hungary: Without Vettel's pace, Ferrari is forced to swap the drivers and gets a 1-3 instead of a 1-2, with Kimi winning.
Spa: The substitute's slower pace puts him into Ricciardo's grip with about two laps to go, finishing 3rd.

So with a driver consistently 2 tenths a lap slower than Vettel, we get - instead of 220-213, as the points actually stand - 185-236, in favor of Lewis. Lewis has 7 wins to his 1. I don't think anybody would be talking about the cars being equal, or the Ferrari possibly ahead.

I really feel bad pointing this out because I know it must have taken you quite a bit of time to put together this post but this is actually an illogical way of assessing things. If you've heard of the butterfly effect you would understand that assuming that things would play out in an identical fashion despite changing something as substantial as who is driving for Ferrari; is a completely inaccurate way of looking at things. That's not even to mention that some of the points are highly dubious (like the assertion that 2 tenths of a second means he would be caught and overtaken at Bahrain). You've also completely ignored the reality of how Ferrari run their team strategy. Sorry but this is just not a meaningful or accurate model.


Last edited by sandman1347 on Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:27 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:

How is this relavent? Zoue said two Kimi level drivers, not two average drivers.

Actually he didn't say that at all...


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 Post subject: Re: Unpopular opinions
PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:47 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
With two drivers like Kimi in the Ferrari, Mercedes would have won 9 races to Ferrari's 3 (I'll be generous and say neither copy of Kimi would have rammed Hamilton behind the safety car, so Baku probably goes their way). Hamilton would have a vast championship lead, and the Ferrari would look no better than it did in 2015.

Kimi is almost half a second slower than Vettel on race pace. That's a lot over the course of a Grand Prix, and it's why Vettel is leading the WDC while Ferrari isn't in contention for the WCC.

Kimi is also one of the worst drivers on the grid today. If you replace Vettal (a top 5 driver) with perhaps an average F1 driver (someone who is 8-12th best on the grid like perhaps Sainz or Perez) we would see the Ferrari in a similar position in the constructor's race. Kimi would have more points than he does (it's amazing how people don't seem to realize how many times his strategy has been sacrificed) and the average F1 driver would have a points haul similar to Bottas.

Let's assume you have a driver who is consistently 2 tenths slower than Vettel, both in qualifying and the race.

Australia: Wouldn't have been close enough to Hamilton to make the overcut work, but still finishes 2nd (barely).
China: No one was anywhere near Vettel, so still finishes 2nd, albeit almost 20 seconds off the lead.
Bahrain: At 2 tenths a lap slower, Hamilton catches him and passes him for the lead; finishes 2nd.
Russia: Finishes 2nd, but instead of hounding Bottas for the lead, both drivers are about 10 seconds off the lead.
Spain: Still 2nd - Ricciardo was over a minute behind.
Monaco: The Vettel substitute would have lost this one to Kimi, but Ferrari still wins.
Canada: Instead of finishing 4th, the substitute is 6th, just ahead of Kimi and behind both Force Indias.
Baku: If you assume the Vettel substitute wouldn't have rammed Lewis and got the penalty, Ferrari probably actually wins this one.
Austria: Not only does the substitute not win, he's jumped by both Ricciardo and Hamilton, finishing 4th ahead of Kimi.
Britain: This was a really bad performance by Vettel, so I'll be nice and say the substitute gets the same result.
Hungary: Without Vettel's pace, Ferrari is forced to swap the drivers and gets a 1-3 instead of a 1-2, with Kimi winning.
Spa: The substitute's slower pace puts him into Ricciardo's grip with about two laps to go, finishing 3rd.

So with a driver consistently 2 tenths a lap slower than Vettel, we get - instead of 220-213, as the points actually stand - 185-236, in favor of Lewis. Lewis has 7 wins to his 1. I don't think anybody would be talking about the cars being equal, or the Ferrari possibly ahead.

I really feel bad pointing this out because I know it must have taken you quite a bit of time to put together this post but this is actually an illogical way of assessing things. If you've heard of the butterfly effect you would understand that assuming that things would play out in an identical fashion despite changing something as substantial as who is driving for Ferrari; is a completely inaccurate way of looking at things. That's not even to mention that some of the points are highly dubious (like the assertion that 2 tenths of a second means he would be caught and overtaken at Bahrain). You've also completely ignored the reality of how Ferrari run their team strategy. Sorry but this is just not a meaningful or accurate model.


I am sure that you are in a great deal of pain "pointing this out". I hope you recover soon, sandman
;)

Perhaps you you could tell us the "reality of how Ferrari run their strategy", so that Exediron could take it into account. If need be, perhaps one of our resident experts on Ferrari contracts, policies, and insider paddock rumors could help you formulate the answer.... poker perhaps?

Personally, i'd love to have a definitive, irrefutable, unquestioned study on Ferrari's strategies...as... to my knowledge, Ferrari doesn't publish them for public review... Perhaps Stepney has returned?

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