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Worst year by top driver
2007, Alonso 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
2011, Hamilton 37%  37%  [ 13 ]
2014, Vettel 57%  57%  [ 20 ]
Total votes : 35
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:28 pm 
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The accepted best three drivers of the post Schumacher era, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. Since Schumacher won his last championship in 2004, between them they have won 10 out of 12 championships and narrowly losing one by 1 point.

It is often speculated about which driver had the best year but I think truly great drivers are judged by their low points (especially if occurring during their peak years) as much as their triumphs. Alonso also had a not so great 2004, Hamilton a not so great 2013 and Vettel not so great 2016 but the years below are years their team mates gained the upper hand on them.

Alonso 2007;
Reigning double world champion against a rookie. We all know the story, he had been in F1 6 years, won the last two titles and was matched by a rookie in all areas - qualifying, race pace, errors etc.

Mitigating circumstances:
- Both were new to the team and tyres
- Hamilton gone on to be a great driver himself.
- By seasons end, team were behind Hamilton.


Hamilton 2011:
Started the season well and was ahead of Button in all aspects until the 2nd half in which he had numerous collisions (6 collisions in 10 races) and penalties (5 or 6 in total through the year). Hamilton got more penalties in 2011 than 2007-2010 combined. Button was also closer pace wise, but Hamilton still the quicker even in the 2nd half.

Mitigating circumstances:
- He was quicker/better than button in first half of 2011 and also 2010 and 2012 either side of this bad patch.
- It wasn't his pace that was bad it was his race craft and the amount of collisions and penalties he got.


Vettel 2014;
Reigning quadruple champion against a new un-established driver coming to his team. Quite comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo for qualifying pace, race pace, tyre management and race craft. Vettel only really shined in the wet.

Mitigating circumstances:
- New rules
- Ricciardo gone on to be a very good driver himself

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Last edited by lamo on Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:37 pm 
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lamo wrote:
The accepted best three drivers of the post Schumacher era, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. Since Schumacher won his last championship in 2004, between them they have won 10 out of 12 championships and narrowly losing one by 1 point.

It is often speculated about which driver had the best year but I think truly great drivers are judged by their low points (especially if occurring during their peak years) as much as their triumphs. Alonso also had a not so great 2004, Hamilton a not so great 2013 and Vettel not so great 2016 but the years below are years their team mates gained the upper hand on them.

Alonso 2007;
Reigning double world champion against a rookie. We all know the story, he had been in F1 6 years, won the last two titles and was matched by a rookie in all areas - qualifying, race pace, errors etc.

Mitigating circumstances:
- Both were new to the team and tyres
- Hamilton gone on to be a great driver himself.
- By seasons end, team were behind Hamilton.


Hamilton 2011:
Started the season well and was ahead of Button in all aspects until the 2nd half in which he had numerous collisions (6 collisions in 10 races) and penalties (5 or 6 in total through the year). Hamilton got more penalties in 2011 than 2007-2010 combined. Button was also closer pace wise, but Hamilton still the quicker even in the 2nd half.

Mitigating circumstances:
- He was quicker/better than button in first half of 2011 and also 2010 and 2012 either side of this bad patch.
- It wasn't his pace that was bad it was his race craft and the amount of collisions and penalties he got.


Vettel 2014;
Reigning quadruple champion against a new un-established driver coming to his team. Quite comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo for qualifying pace, race pace, tyre management and race craft. Vettel only really shined in the wet.

Mitigating circumstances:
- New rules
- Ricciardo gone on to be a very good driver himself


I think the poll needs renaming. Vettel seems to be called Ricciardo. Ricciardo most certainly didn't have a bad year in 2014 :lol: But out of those 3, I didn't really follow F1 much before 2010 but I really did thing Vettel did have a poor year in 2014. I don't think Hamilton was exactly that bad. I just think Button was better than a lot think he was.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 4:53 pm 
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I think the mitigating circumstances for Alonso 2007 are a bit weak and seem more focused on Lewis there. Lewis wasn't new to the team in the same sense as Alonso was or as he was to Mercedes in 2013 really was he.

Alonso's should be..

New team
New tyres
New driving style
Broken down relations with team post Hungary.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 5:07 pm 
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Er, Ricciardo in 2014 had a bad season? I'd love to see his good seasons. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:22 pm 
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Vettel's season was the worst of the three. Alonso almost one the championship in his and for all of Hamilton's issues in 2011 he out paced Button for most of it. Vettel was totally flattened by Ricciardo.

Alonso's had the lowest "low point" though in black mailing his team. I think it's telling though that in Alonso's worse year he finished a point off the title with a car you could argue had a deficit seeing his performance against Raikkonen and Massa in truly equal cars.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:31 pm 
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Sorry! Changed the 2014 error.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:45 pm 
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lamo wrote:
The accepted best three drivers of the post Schumacher era, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. Since Schumacher won his last championship in 2004, between them they have won 10 out of 12 championships and narrowly losing one by 1 point.

It is often speculated about which driver had the best year but I think truly great drivers are judged by their low points (especially if occurring during their peak years) as much as their triumphs. Alonso also had a not so great 2004, Hamilton a not so great 2013 and Vettel not so great 2016 but the years below are years their team mates gained the upper hand on them.

Alonso 2007;
Reigning double world champion against a rookie. We all know the story, he had been in F1 6 years, won the last two titles and was matched by a rookie in all areas - qualifying, race pace, errors etc.

Mitigating circumstances:
- Both were new to the team and tyres
- Hamilton gone on to be a great driver himself.
- By seasons end, team were behind Hamilton.


Hamilton 2011:
Started the season well and was ahead of Button in all aspects until the 2nd half in which he had numerous collisions (6 collisions in 10 races) and penalties (5 or 6 in total through the year). Hamilton got more penalties in 2011 than 2007-2010 combined. Button was also closer pace wise, but Hamilton still the quicker even in the 2nd half.

Mitigating circumstances:
- He was quicker/better than button in first half of 2011 and also 2010 and 2012 either side of this bad patch.
- It wasn't his pace that was bad it was his race craft and the amount of collisions and penalties he got.


Vettel 2014;
Reigning quadruple champion against a new un-established driver coming to his team. Quite comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo for qualifying pace, race pace, tyre management and race craft. Vettel only really shined in the wet.

Mitigating circumstances:
- New rules

- Ricciardo gone on to be a very good driver himself


BIB--Why should this be taken in mitigation? The rules were new for everyone? What about Ric having to adapt and adjust to a new team environment?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:47 pm 
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Both Alonso and Hamilton worst years were exacerbated by their emotional driving which cost them points. Alonso could have beaten Hamilton if he had cooled down and played the percentages game and not let Hamilton being in front of him in races lead to instant bad overdriving to compensate. Watching that season I instantly could tell I was watching the best two talents of the post Schumacher reign in the same team and it was a real shame that they only had one season together but their personalities just did not gel with Alonso being the anti-Bottas to Hamilton followed by Rosberg then Button then Kovalenein on a ascending scale of compatibility to Hamilton from Alonso to Bottas.

I think Vettel's year was the worst as it cast doubt on his ultimate speed amongst the fastest drivers although I have always felt the car just did not suit him like in some races against Webber and he does lose speed if he is not at one with a car but how much of that was responsible for his relatively poor showing against Ricciardo is the part open to debate. We won't know until he gets another teammate but he is a hard working fast driver who fully deserved his wdcs regardless of how you view 2014 for him and he is back leading a wdc again 4 years after his last one in another car so they were not flukes. Schumacher also relied on finding particular driving methods/styles in certain cars to stay ahead of his competition so why fault Vettel for doing the same in the EBD red bulls.

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Last edited by mas on Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:49 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I think the mitigating circumstances for Alonso 2007 are a bit weak and seem more focused on Lewis there. Lewis wasn't new to the team in the same sense as Alonso was or as he was to Mercedes in 2013 really was he.

Alonso's should be..

New team
New tyres
New driving style
Broken down relations with team post Hungary.


I think our lists encompass very similar things - 2 and 3 are pretty much the same thing. Each of the first 3 are slightly weak in themselves as each were the same or worse for his rookie team mate and his title rivals baring Massa who stayed in the same team and had the same tyres. Although Lewis' test days through 2006/07 would help build a working relationship with Mclaren.

He did have a breakdown post Hungary but he actually beat Hamilton in the next 3 races putting in two of his strongest performance (relative to Hamilton) in Spa and Monza where he blitzed Hamilton. Alonso also finished ahead of Hamilton in 6 of the 7 races post Hungary although a lot to do with circumstances it was his best period of the season points wise vs Hamilton. It seemed more like the last 2 races the focus was on Lewis and potentially Alonso sandbagged by the team, especially post Japan when Alonso was "out of the title" baring a miracle, which happened...

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:51 pm 
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I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the three, although I would probably add something about already wanting out of the team for Vettel in 2014. I don't really believe it was the cause of his defeat, but it had to be a factor, and some certainly do believe.

I think Alonso's 2007 is out of the running. It wasn't what we expect of Alonso, but it certainly wasn't a terrible season, and in the end he was beaten by his teammate in only the most technical of ways. Disappointing, yes, because the WDC was on the line unlike in the other two, but not a really bad season (on track).

Hamilton 2011 and Vettel 2014 are very different. In one, you have a driver who's on the pace but keeps making silly mistakes, whereas in the other you have a driver who isn't so much making mistakes, he's just unaccountably slow. Personally, when I'm evaluating myself in a racing game or karting, I look for the pace first; if I have the pace but I'm making mistakes that's frustrating, but if I don't have the pace that's unacceptable.

So in the end, I'd have to say Vettel's season was the worse. Hamilton was sloppy, but Vettel was slow.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:53 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
lamo wrote:
The accepted best three drivers of the post Schumacher era, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. Since Schumacher won his last championship in 2004, between them they have won 10 out of 12 championships and narrowly losing one by 1 point.

It is often speculated about which driver had the best year but I think truly great drivers are judged by their low points (especially if occurring during their peak years) as much as their triumphs. Alonso also had a not so great 2004, Hamilton a not so great 2013 and Vettel not so great 2016 but the years below are years their team mates gained the upper hand on them.

Alonso 2007;
Reigning double world champion against a rookie. We all know the story, he had been in F1 6 years, won the last two titles and was matched by a rookie in all areas - qualifying, race pace, errors etc.

Mitigating circumstances:
- Both were new to the team and tyres
- Hamilton gone on to be a great driver himself.
- By seasons end, team were behind Hamilton.


Hamilton 2011:
Started the season well and was ahead of Button in all aspects until the 2nd half in which he had numerous collisions (6 collisions in 10 races) and penalties (5 or 6 in total through the year). Hamilton got more penalties in 2011 than 2007-2010 combined. Button was also closer pace wise, but Hamilton still the quicker even in the 2nd half.

Mitigating circumstances:
- He was quicker/better than button in first half of 2011 and also 2010 and 2012 either side of this bad patch.
- It wasn't his pace that was bad it was his race craft and the amount of collisions and penalties he got.


Vettel 2014;
Reigning quadruple champion against a new un-established driver coming to his team. Quite comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo for qualifying pace, race pace, tyre management and race craft. Vettel only really shined in the wet.

Mitigating circumstances:
- New rules

- Ricciardo gone on to be a very good driver himself


BIB--Why should this be taken in mitigation? The rules were new for everyone? What about Ric having to adapt and adjust to a new team environment?


To be honest, I wanted to put at least a few things down for each to not appear biased. But the point being he had perfected the earlier rules (blown diffuser etc) and now there was a reset. Which I think is a fair point, he was a bit of specialised in that era.

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Last edited by lamo on Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 6:59 pm 
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lamo wrote:
SR1 wrote:
lamo wrote:
The accepted best three drivers of the post Schumacher era, Alonso, Vettel and Hamilton. Since Schumacher won his last championship in 2004, between them they have won 10 out of 12 championships and narrowly losing one by 1 point.

It is often speculated about which driver had the best year but I think truly great drivers are judged by their low points (especially if occurring during their peak years) as much as their triumphs. Alonso also had a not so great 2004, Hamilton a not so great 2013 and Vettel not so great 2016 but the years below are years their team mates gained the upper hand on them.

Alonso 2007;
Reigning double world champion against a rookie. We all know the story, he had been in F1 6 years, won the last two titles and was matched by a rookie in all areas - qualifying, race pace, errors etc.

Mitigating circumstances:
- Both were new to the team and tyres
- Hamilton gone on to be a great driver himself.
- By seasons end, team were behind Hamilton.


Hamilton 2011:
Started the season well and was ahead of Button in all aspects until the 2nd half in which he had numerous collisions (6 collisions in 10 races) and penalties (5 or 6 in total through the year). Hamilton got more penalties in 2011 than 2007-2010 combined. Button was also closer pace wise, but Hamilton still the quicker even in the 2nd half.

Mitigating circumstances:
- He was quicker/better than button in first half of 2011 and also 2010 and 2012 either side of this bad patch.
- It wasn't his pace that was bad it was his race craft and the amount of collisions and penalties he got.


Vettel 2014;
Reigning quadruple champion against a new un-established driver coming to his team. Quite comprehensively beaten by Ricciardo for qualifying pace, race pace, tyre management and race craft. Vettel only really shined in the wet.

Mitigating circumstances:
- New rules

- Ricciardo gone on to be a very good driver himself


BIB--Why should this be taken in mitigation? The rules were new for everyone? What about Ric having to adapt and adjust to a new team environment?


To be honest, I wanted to put at least a few things down for each to not appear biased. But the point being he had perfected the earlier rules (blown diffuser etc) and now there was a reset.


They all had to "unlearn" certain intricacies and characteristics from the previous generation of cars? It was a reset for everyone?


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:06 pm 
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SR1> Yes they did. But Vettel was arguably the most at home on the EBD, early Pirelli tyre era. Arguably he had a big car advantage and weak team mate. The truth probably somewhere between the two.

Also, rule changes can affect some driver more than others. For example tyre saving isn't much of an advantage now as they tyres are quite durable. Where as in the Pirelli era it could allow you to stop 1 less time in the past and its was a very good strength to have. Now its a strength that is diminished.

Likewise, one of Schumachers strengths was the ability to do qualifying laps for an entire stint (maximum attack) on rock solid tyres that didn't wear out. That was a skill that wasn't much use in early Pirelli era once Michael came out of a retirement on those cheese tyres.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:30 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think the mitigating circumstances for Alonso 2007 are a bit weak and seem more focused on Lewis there. Lewis wasn't new to the team in the same sense as Alonso was or as he was to Mercedes in 2013 really was he.

Alonso's should be..

New team
New tyres
New driving style
Broken down relations with team post Hungary.


I think our lists encompass very similar things - 2 and 3 are pretty much the same thing. Each of the first 3 are slightly weak in themselves as each were the same or worse for his rookie team mate and his title rivals baring Massa who stayed in the same team and had the same tyres. Although Lewis' test days through 2006/07 would help build a working relationship with Mclaren.

He did have a breakdown post Hungary but he actually beat Hamilton in the next 3 races putting in two of his strongest performance (relative to Hamilton) in Spa and Monza where he blitzed Hamilton. Alonso also finished ahead of Hamilton in 6 of the 7 races post Hungary although a lot to do with circumstances it was his best period of the season points wise vs Hamilton. It seemed more like the last 2 races the focus was on Lewis and potentially Alonso sandbagged by the team, especially post Japan when Alonso was "out of the title" baring a miracle, which happened...


Well that's kind of the point, you've basically written it was the same for Lewis in all of Alonso's mitigating circumstances, it's either his circumstances or what's mitigating about it?. Lets be fair, it's a fancy way of saying excuse and if you're adding Lewis had it too or worse within them then it's a bit pointless and to be frank, flat out wrong in the first place.

Going from Michelin and thousands of laps on them across 3/4 seasons of F1 and test role to switching to Bridgestone isn't the same as going from Bridgestone GP2 to Bridgestone F1. Being promoted to driver within the team you're in isn't the same as joining a new team all together. And when did Lewis change his driving style?. It was a fundamental shift in style for Alonso rather than simply slightly adapting it for different tyres like he did when he switched from Bridgestone to Pirelli.

How are you deciding all of those were either the same or worse for Lewis?. And why mention it in Alonso's mitigating circumstances?.

His form after the breakdown with the team is a plus for him sure but it's still worth mentioning as it was such a big thing and obviously a tough thing for a driver to have to deal with, I personally think Lewis fell back a bit for a couple of races post Hungary rather than Alonso went up a gear. Potentially because Alonso allegedly withheld his set ups after Hungary and it took a couple of weekends for Lewis to get to grips with it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:33 pm 
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Alonso was in the titlefight to the last race.
Hamilton 2011 was scruffy but still got a few wins and quite a few poles if my memory serves me correctly.

Vettel 2014 was a disaster, no wins, no poles, dominated by his teammate who had his first year with the team, seeming generally off mentally from F1. To be fair though no one without a Mercedes would get poles and wins that year unless something happend to both of them. Without that Ricciardo would not have won either.

Edit: Also in 2014 alot of people said about Vettels 4 WDC that ''ah, it was only the car then''. People haven't doubted Alonso or Hamiltons talent the same way, yet.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:43 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the three, although I would probably add something about already wanting out of the team for Vettel in 2014. I don't really believe it was the cause of his defeat, but it had to be a factor, and some certainly do believe.

.


As a fan of Ricciardo, this kind of theory annoys the hell out of me. It serves to detract from an excellent Ric 2014 performance and looks to find justification for a subpar performance from Vettel.

Interesting observation from F1 expert Mark Hughes regarding such theory

"I have heard that conspiracy theory. But I don't buy it. I watched trackside through 2014 and saw with my own eyes how hard Vettel was trying. In fact probably too hard. I also spoke with the engineers who knew the data. He was driving out of his skin but Ricciardo was simply usually faster in that car at that time"


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:47 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
I think that's a pretty fair assessment of the three, although I would probably add something about already wanting out of the team for Vettel in 2014. I don't really believe it was the cause of his defeat, but it had to be a factor, and some certainly do believe.

.


As a fan of Ricciardo, this kind of theory annoys the hell out of me. It serves to detract from an excellent Ric 2014 performance and looks to find justification for a subpar performance from Vettel.

Interesting observation from F1 expert Mark Hughes regarding such theory

"I have heard that conspiracy theory. But I don't buy it. I watched trackside through 2014 and saw with my own eyes how hard Vettel was trying. In fact probably too hard. I also spoke with the engineers who knew the data. He was driving out of his skin but Ricciardo was simply usually faster in that car at that time"


Yeah I don't buy it either, Seb would be well aware what a defeat like that does for a reputation and we know how competitive he is.

Welcoming defeat for these guys just doesn't wash with me on any level.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:48 pm 
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SR1 wrote:

BIB--Why should this be taken in mitigation? The rules were new for everyone? What about Ric having to adapt and adjust to a new team environment?



Genuine question:- what does BIB mean?

I've looked on Google, and some of the results are frankly ace, lol ! But can't find one that makes sense in the context of this forum


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:52 pm 
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I don't recall Hamilton gaining the upper hand on Alonso in 2007, despite the team freezing him out - not entirely without cause, but that's neither here nor there in this matter.

That leaves Hamilton and Vettel. I'm surprised you didn't mention the fact that Hamilton was up against a world champion driver. While that is a mitigating factor, I can't help noticing this is the second championship he lost when teamed with a champion, after 2007. (Not that this has any bearing on the poll, just a thought that struck me when remembering who he met when he went to Mercedes.)
I think Vettel, having best adapted to the blown diffuser prior his off-year, had more to re-adapt to. Ricciardo shone though.

It's a hard choice, but I'm voting Hamilton. Partly because I don't think there were any reasons related to the car or the team that explained his dip.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Argentum wrote:
SR1 wrote:

BIB--Why should this be taken in mitigation? The rules were new for everyone? What about Ric having to adapt and adjust to a new team environment?



Genuine question:- what does BIB mean?

I've looked on Google, and some of the results are frankly ace, lol ! But can't find one that makes sense in the context of this forum


Bit in Bold.

Took me a while to figure it out myself when I first saw it around.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think the mitigating circumstances for Alonso 2007 are a bit weak and seem more focused on Lewis there. Lewis wasn't new to the team in the same sense as Alonso was or as he was to Mercedes in 2013 really was he.

Alonso's should be..

New team
New tyres
New driving style
Broken down relations with team post Hungary.


I think our lists encompass very similar things - 2 and 3 are pretty much the same thing. Each of the first 3 are slightly weak in themselves as each were the same or worse for his rookie team mate and his title rivals baring Massa who stayed in the same team and had the same tyres. Although Lewis' test days through 2006/07 would help build a working relationship with Mclaren.

He did have a breakdown post Hungary but he actually beat Hamilton in the next 3 races putting in two of his strongest performance (relative to Hamilton) in Spa and Monza where he blitzed Hamilton. Alonso also finished ahead of Hamilton in 6 of the 7 races post Hungary although a lot to do with circumstances it was his best period of the season points wise vs Hamilton. It seemed more like the last 2 races the focus was on Lewis and potentially Alonso sandbagged by the team, especially post Japan when Alonso was "out of the title" baring a miracle, which happened...


Well that's kind of the point, you've basically written it was the same for Lewis in all of Alonso's mitigating circumstances, it's either his circumstances or what's mitigating about it?. Lets be fair, it's a fancy way of saying excuse and if you're adding Lewis had it too or worse within them then it's a bit pointless and to be frank, flat out wrong in the first place.

Going from Michelin and thousands of laps on them across 3/4 seasons of F1 and test role to switching to Bridgestone isn't the same as going from Bridgestone GP2 to Bridgestone F1. Being promoted to driver within the team you're in isn't the same as joining a new team all together. And when did Lewis change his driving style?. It was a fundamental shift in style for Alonso rather than simply slightly adapting it for different tyres like he did when he switched from Bridgestone to Pirelli.

How are you deciding all of those were either the same or worse for Lewis?. And why mention it in Alonso's mitigating circumstances?.

His form after the breakdown with the team is a plus for him sure but it's still worth mentioning as it was such a big thing and obviously a tough thing for a driver to have to deal with, I personally think Lewis fell back a bit for a couple of races post Hungary rather than Alonso went up a gear. Potentially because Alonso allegedly withheld his set ups after Hungary and it took a couple of weekends for Lewis to get to grips with it.


I don't really disagree with what you are saying but a few points -

- Alonso's Renault driving style was an adaptation to that car. That wasn't his usual driving style, it was a style he developed to maximise that car. Correct me if I am wrong but the earlier Renaults didn't use the Michelins like that and it was only in 2005 he developed that style. But I agree, the last seasons Renault had those traits more extreme than any of the others and he had to "unlearn" that somewhat.

- All of Hamiltons experience was also on the Michelins over 2005-2006 and both had the same mileage of 2007 Bridgestones going into the season. Both went into the season kind of green for varying reasons

- The biggest factor is how good Hamilton was/is. The same as Prosts narrow speed deficit to Senna in particular 1988 is seen as a positive for Prost rather than focusing on the defeat. Not that I am suggesting Hamilton is better than Alonso.

If Hamilton joined Mclaren in 2008, I think he would have beat Hamilton that year and then going into 2009 (assuming they were still team mates) who knows. Probably similar to 2007.

BIB - I didn't initially, I think they are valid enough without bringing Hamilton into it.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 9:28 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Argentum wrote:
SR1 wrote:

BIB--Why should this be taken in mitigation? The rules were new for everyone? What about Ric having to adapt and adjust to a new team environment?



Genuine question:- what does BIB mean?

I've looked on Google, and some of the results are frankly ace, lol ! But can't find one that makes sense in the context of this forum


Bit in Bold.

Took me a while to figure it out myself when I first saw it around.


Thanks.

Way more boring than some of the Google ones I encountered (nearly said came across, lol). Check them out - not laughed so much in yonks


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 10:08 pm 
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Vettel's was obviously the worst. Alonso's the 'best' and Hamilton's in the middle. Alonso had a bad season by his standards but it wasn't an overall bad season like Hamilton and Vettel had.

On the mitigating factors Webber aired the view that Schumacher's accident over the winter had knocked Vettel quite hard as they were close, a bit dubious as you could argue other drivers may have been close to him and not had as bad of a season but still worth considering.

http://www.foxsports.com/motor/story/f1 ... ber-050515
Quote:
“We’ll only find out further down the line, he’ll probably open up a little bit about that year and what was going on. From the outside looking at it I think Michael [Schumacher’s] accident really knocked him round, that really hit him, as he’s very close with Michael. And he had a child, and all of a sudden maybe lap times were not No. 1 for the first few months of the year, and then it started to snowball.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 11:29 pm 
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Looks like I'm the only one who voted for Alonso so far.

At the start of 2007 he was on top of the world. He was the man who dethroned Michael Schumacher and was the reigning double world champion (the youngest ever champion and race winner at the time as well). By the end of that year he'd been knocked off his perch by a newcomer, been embroiled in one of the sport's biggest scandals and soiled his reputation by revealing himself to be a rather combustible, tempestuous character to manage. He was then booted from his front-running team and consigned to a midfield car for the next two years as a result, costing himself the world championship in 2008 (as well as the 2007 title he had already lost). The only way things could have gotten any worse from there would be if his team had conspired to fix a race in his favour the subsequent year...

I would say that of the three, Alonso's 'bad year' had by far the most negative and lasting impact on his career and he was the only one who lost a championship (two in my opinion) as a result of it.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:39 am 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think the mitigating circumstances for Alonso 2007 are a bit weak and seem more focused on Lewis there. Lewis wasn't new to the team in the same sense as Alonso was or as he was to Mercedes in 2013 really was he.

Alonso's should be..

New team
New tyres
New driving style
Broken down relations with team post Hungary.


I think our lists encompass very similar things - 2 and 3 are pretty much the same thing. Each of the first 3 are slightly weak in themselves as each were the same or worse for his rookie team mate and his title rivals baring Massa who stayed in the same team and had the same tyres. Although Lewis' test days through 2006/07 would help build a working relationship with Mclaren.

He did have a breakdown post Hungary but he actually beat Hamilton in the next 3 races putting in two of his strongest performance (relative to Hamilton) in Spa and Monza where he blitzed Hamilton. Alonso also finished ahead of Hamilton in 6 of the 7 races post Hungary although a lot to do with circumstances it was his best period of the season points wise vs Hamilton. It seemed more like the last 2 races the focus was on Lewis and potentially Alonso sandbagged by the team, especially post Japan when Alonso was "out of the title" baring a miracle, which happened...


Well that's kind of the point, you've basically written it was the same for Lewis in all of Alonso's mitigating circumstances, it's either his circumstances or what's mitigating about it?. Lets be fair, it's a fancy way of saying excuse and if you're adding Lewis had it too or worse within them then it's a bit pointless and to be frank, flat out wrong in the first place.

Going from Michelin and thousands of laps on them across 3/4 seasons of F1 and test role to switching to Bridgestone isn't the same as going from Bridgestone GP2 to Bridgestone F1. Being promoted to driver within the team you're in isn't the same as joining a new team all together. And when did Lewis change his driving style?. It was a fundamental shift in style for Alonso rather than simply slightly adapting it for different tyres like he did when he switched from Bridgestone to Pirelli.

How are you deciding all of those were either the same or worse for Lewis?. And why mention it in Alonso's mitigating circumstances?.

His form after the breakdown with the team is a plus for him sure but it's still worth mentioning as it was such a big thing and obviously a tough thing for a driver to have to deal with, I personally think Lewis fell back a bit for a couple of races post Hungary rather than Alonso went up a gear. Potentially because Alonso allegedly withheld his set ups after Hungary and it took a couple of weekends for Lewis to get to grips with it.


I don't really disagree with what you are saying but a few points -

- Alonso's Renault driving style was an adaptation to that car. That wasn't his usual driving style, it was a style he developed to maximise that car. Correct me if I am wrong but the earlier Renaults didn't use the Michelins like that and it was only in 2005 he developed that style. But I agree, the last seasons Renault had those traits more extreme than any of the others and he had to "unlearn" that somewhat.

- All of Hamiltons experience was also on the Michelins over 2005-2006 and both had the same mileage of 2007 Bridgestones going into the season. Both went into the season kind of green for varying reasons

- The biggest factor is how good Hamilton was/is. The same as Prosts narrow speed deficit to Senna in particular 1988 is seen as a positive for Prost rather than focusing on the defeat. Not that I am suggesting Hamilton is better than Alonso.

If Hamilton joined Mclaren in 2008, I think he would have beat Hamilton that year and then going into 2009 (assuming they were still team mates) who knows. Probably similar to 2007.

BIB - I didn't initially, I think they are valid enough without bringing Hamilton into it.


- Maybe true on the driving style before 2005, I didn't know much about him at all back then so can't comment one way or another. I only know the 2007 change was a big one because how often it's described by other drivers and from the conversations around whether we'd see it again with these Pirelli's. I remember the no need for changing it from Bridgestone to Pirelli either which suggests there was something very specific going on with the switch from Michelin to Bridgestone.

- 2006 GP2 had the slick Bridgestones, not the same as the F1 ones though of course.

- It was a big factor for sure but that's not really the issue. I'm sure you weren't aiming for another 2007 re-hash with this thread so it's not about that.

I don't think I'm explaining myself very well at all here but it's about what's classed as mitigating issues. The ones you've put down for Alonso are clearly written from the perspective of a Lewis fan, even to the point you literally mention him in every one of them, it's all about him being great and only him as to what could possibly have contributed to Alonso's 'low point' and the other one, meh, they both had to deal with so doesn't really count.

I'm probably being harsh with the last one about the team being behind Lewis, that's got nowt to do with Lewis to be fair but I do think the first one in particular reads like trying to get ahead of what the actual mitigating factors were from an Alonso perspective by claiming Lewis had the same issue anyway so it doesn't matter.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 12:40 am 
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j man wrote:
I would say that of the three, Alonso's 'bad year' had by far the most negative and lasting impact on his career and he was the only one who lost a championship (two in my opinion) as a result of it.

It had the most significant impact on his career, no question. But I believe the thread is about who drove the worst in their respective 'bad year'.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:07 am 
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But all of the mitigating circumstances for each driver are with regards to their team mates as the whole premise of these being bad years is due to the drivers performance compared to their team mates.

I mentioned both being new to the team as I feel it is important and saying Alonso was new to the team and tyres would be ignoring the fact Hamilton was too as was Kimi. So all three main title contenders were in a similar boat and Massa had a nice advantage over each of them.

Likewise Ricciardo being new to Red Bull and still beating Vettel makes that even worse for Vettel and Hamilton v Button in 2011 was a straight with both drivers bedded into the team. Although it was the first season on Pirelli's which didn't really make much difference although Hamilton did have a nightmare in race 2 at Malaysia going from fighting for the win to finishing 7th after falling off the cliff with the new Pirelli's, something he did in Japan too.

Generally with rule changes etc, I lean quite strongly toward - sink or swim, the best adapt etc etc.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:11 am 
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Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
I would say that of the three, Alonso's 'bad year' had by far the most negative and lasting impact on his career and he was the only one who lost a championship (two in my opinion) as a result of it.

It had the most significant impact on his career, no question. But I believe the thread is about who drove the worst in their respective 'bad year'.


Yes driving aside, how Alonso came out of 2007 will probably be looked back at being the main reason he only won 2 WDC's. His year was the lowest in terms of its affect on the rest of his career. To think he would be in the sport for 10+ seasons after 2007 and no title and only 2 title challenges is staggering. 2007 must've played a part in him not getting a Red Bull drive 2011-2013 or a Mercedes ride for 2013-2017 which is the real damage.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:03 am 
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IMO Alonso came out of 2007 with same points as the #1 driver, not bad at all, but he mainly had himself to blame, perhaps in the future we will know what promises Ron gave him and what happened behind curtains.

Vettel in 2014 had won 4 straight titles with the current regs, and has been said before, everything comes to an end, in 2014 he had a low year but has come back and this year is by majority seen as the driver who's had the best season.
-- I also rate both Ricciardo and Verstappen capable of beating all 3 in same equipment

Hamilton 2011 was just a waste of a quite good car with unnecessary collisions that even caused problems for other drivers


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:18 am 
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I've got to say Hamilton 2011.

Watching Alonso 2007, I thought - man, Hamilton is quick.
Watching Vettel 2014, I thought - man, Ricciardo is quick.
Watching Hamilton 2011, I thought - man, this guy has lost it.

I do think Hamilton has gained most out of his lowest point, though. I think that began his chain of events which led to him really toughening up his mentality to, in my opinion, the strongest mentality on the grid. I think it also led to his own realization that he had to minimise off-track drama in his life (or at least find a way to block the unavoidable stuff out) if he wanted to reach his full potential in F1.


Slight tangent - a few people have mentioned the car in 2014 not finding Vettel. I think this is a great point often missed. Some drivers can just drive, but there are always going to be traits either through car design or enforced in rulesets which push a driver towards or further away from their peak performance. Unfortunately their driving skills are judged based on this, when parts of it are largely luck.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:41 am 
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Ennis wrote:
I've got to say Hamilton 2011.

Watching Alonso 2007, I thought - man, Hamilton is quick.
Watching Vettel 2014, I thought - man, Ricciardo is quick.
Watching Hamilton 2011, I thought - man, this guy has lost it.

I do think Hamilton has gained most out of his lowest point, though. I think that began his chain of events which led to him really toughening up his mentality to, in my opinion, the strongest mentality on the grid. I think it also led to his own realization that he had to minimise off-track drama in his life (or at least find a way to block the unavoidable stuff out) if he wanted to reach his full potential in F1.


Slight tangent - a few people have mentioned the car in 2014 not finding Vettel. I think this is a great point often missed. Some drivers can just drive, but there are always going to be traits either through car design or enforced in rulesets which push a driver towards or further away from their peak performance. Unfortunately their driving skills are judged based on this, when parts of it are largely luck.

A good point on Hamilton. I think the key thing he learned from that year was to be more cautious and patient in his overtaking moves. He's very cautious at the start of races now (perhaps even excessively so) and I don't think he's ever even attempted a passing move in Monaco since his disastrous race that year.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:43 am 
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Exediron wrote:
j man wrote:
I would say that of the three, Alonso's 'bad year' had by far the most negative and lasting impact on his career and he was the only one who lost a championship (two in my opinion) as a result of it.

It had the most significant impact on his career, no question. But I believe the thread is about who drove the worst in their respective 'bad year'.

Well that's how I chose to define it anyway.

In terms of actual level of performance that year, then yes I'd agree with the general consensus that Vettel's was the worst.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 1:47 pm 
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lamo wrote:
But all of the mitigating circumstances for each driver are with regards to their team mates as the whole premise of these being bad years is due to the drivers performance compared to their team mates.

I mentioned both being new to the team as I feel it is important and saying Alonso was new to the team and tyres would be ignoring the fact Hamilton was too as was Kimi. So all three main title contenders were in a similar boat and Massa had a nice advantage over each of them.

Likewise Ricciardo being new to Red Bull and still beating Vettel makes that even worse for Vettel and Hamilton v Button in 2011 was a straight with both drivers bedded into the team. Although it was the first season on Pirelli's which didn't really make much difference although Hamilton did have a nightmare in race 2 at Malaysia going from fighting for the win to finishing 7th after falling off the cliff with the new Pirelli's, something he did in Japan too.

Generally with rule changes etc, I lean quite strongly toward - sink or swim, the best adapt etc etc.


How is it a mitigating factor for Alonso that both were "new" to the team and tyres?. It just makes no sense to me.

And we'll have to agree to disagree on it being the same for both of them in the first place for reasons posted earlier, I don't want to derail the thread on a small point that I don't think I'm making very well anyway.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
But all of the mitigating circumstances for each driver are with regards to their team mates as the whole premise of these being bad years is due to the drivers performance compared to their team mates.

I mentioned both being new to the team as I feel it is important and saying Alonso was new to the team and tyres would be ignoring the fact Hamilton was too as was Kimi. So all three main title contenders were in a similar boat and Massa had a nice advantage over each of them.

Likewise Ricciardo being new to Red Bull and still beating Vettel makes that even worse for Vettel and Hamilton v Button in 2011 was a straight with both drivers bedded into the team. Although it was the first season on Pirelli's which didn't really make much difference although Hamilton did have a nightmare in race 2 at Malaysia going from fighting for the win to finishing 7th after falling off the cliff with the new Pirelli's, something he did in Japan too.

Generally with rule changes etc, I lean quite strongly toward - sink or swim, the best adapt etc etc.


How is it a mitigating factor for Alonso that both were "new" to the team and tyres?. It just makes no sense to me.

And we'll have to agree to disagree on it being the same for both of them in the first place for reasons posted earlier, I don't want to derail the thread on a small point that I don't think I'm making very well anyway.


Because the entire premise of it being a bad year is based on his performance against his team mate. So you draw the comparison against the team mate. I am just stating the strength of the mitigating circumstance can vary and they do need context.

IF Hamilton had experience of Bridgestones and had experience of racing for Mclaren on a race weekend then these mitigating circumstances for 2007 would be a lot stronger for Alonso. Lets say for arguments sake Alonso completed 2007 in a Renault on Michelins and then joined Hamilton at Mclaren for 2008. Hamilton had completed 2007 on Bridgestones, then the mitigating circumstances would be a LOT more mitigating in the case of Alonso because Hamilton would have a distinct advantage over him on the tyres and the team with that extra year. That was the point I was trying to portray by stating Hamilton was also new to tyres and the team. This is actually exactly what Kimi had to face when joining Ferrari and Massa was much better than him over the first 6-7 races.

I don't think Hamilton and Alonso's cases were directly comparable and I am not implying that, both had advantages and disadvantages and which had the bigger influence we will never know.

But unlike Kimi who jumped in performance from about race 6-7 on wards (against Massa) after his initial adaptation woes - Alonso never had a performance leap after acclimatising. In fact, the opposite occurred, it was Hamilton that got better. Alonso was 4-1 up in qualifying in the first 5 races and Hamilton had only out performed him in one race weekend (Bahrain) in that first 5 races. Hamilton did beat him in Spain too but only because Alonso went for the lead at turn 1, went through the gravel and lost 2-3 palces. Alonso finished ahead in all the other initial races.

Then from Monaco on wards they became pretty equal for the rest of the year if not Hamilton marginally stronger. Post Monaco, Hamilton out qualified him 5 times straight after being beaten 4-1 initially and winning qualifying 8-2 post Monaco. You could argue that after his back to back wins in Canada and USA, Alonso's awful Canada weekend and the fact Hamilton had 9 straight podiums at the start that the team moved toward him as the main WDC hope from around USA onwards

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:26 pm 
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Another point is, it really shows how important the team mate is in deciding how good an individual season or driver is...

During 2010-2013, the big question over Vettel was - lets see how he does against somebody other than Webber.

Likewise, Alonso in 2007. If they had Pedro in the car. Alonso likely wins about 6 races that season. Pedro doesn't win a single race. The Ferrari wins 10-11 races. Kimi is maligned for his slow adaptation to the car. Alonso is hailed as the outright best in the field for winning the title in a clearly inferior car (Massa , who Alonso thrashed the year before - is pulling Grand Chelems) and it goes down as a driver winning a title with a car disadvantage.

I think Alonso has done enough to completely secure his legacy as a top top driver and all time great.

Hamilton and Vettel in particularly are 1 more bad season from not being all time greats. If Vettel's next team mate beats him he will go down as just beating an old Kimi and slow Webber and winning titles in dominant cars.

Likewise, if Hamilton loses to his next team mate or Bottas gets the upper hand on him over the next seasons - he will go down as just an very good driver but only a bit better than other very good drivers (Button, Rosberg, Bottas).

But it can of course also go the other way, if Verstappen/Ricciardo/next big things joins Ferrari and Vettel comfortably beats him - he propels himself and completely secures his seat in the all time greats list without any questions marks over him at all. Hamilton has had enough good team mates to probably put himself up with the greatest of all time, he just needs to maintain where as I personally feel we need to see Vettel against 1 more driver - either trashing one more mid tier driver or edging out a top tier driver.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 3:38 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Another point is, it really shows how important the team mate is in deciding how good an individual season or driver is...

During 2010-2013, the big question over Vettel was - lets see how he does against somebody other than Webber.

Likewise, Alonso in 2007. If they had Pedro in the car. Alonso likely wins about 6 races that season. Pedro doesn't win a single race. The Ferrari wins 10-11 races. Kimi is maligned for his slow adaptation to the car. Alonso is hailed as the outright best in the field for winning the title in a clearly inferior car (Massa , who Alonso thrashed the year before - is pulling Grand Chelems) and it goes down as a driver winning a title with a car disadvantage.

I think Alonso has done enough to completely secure his legacy as a top top driver and all time great.

Hamilton and Vettel in particularly are 1 more bad season from not being all time greats. If Vettel's next team mate beats him he will go down as just beating an old Kimi and slow Webber and winning titles in dominant cars.

Likewise, if Hamilton loses to his next team mate or Bottas gets the upper hand on him over the next seasons - he will go down as just an very good driver but only a bit better than other very good drivers (Button, Rosberg, Bottas).

But it can of course also go the other way, if Verstappen/Ricciardo/next big things joins Ferrari and Vettel comfortably beats him - he propels himself and completely secures his seat in the all time greats list without any questions marks over him at all. Hamilton has had enough good team mates to probably put himself up with the greatest of all time, he just needs to maintain where as I personally feel we need to see Vettel against 1 more driver - either trashing one more mid tier driver or edging out a top tier driver.


:thumbup:

Agree with all of this.

Vettel's 2014 season came at a bad time for him reputation wise. All the naysayers were saying he only looked good because of a dominant car and a weak team mate until 2014. Then 2014 came, no dominant car, young team mate and he was beaten. Not just beaten but well beaten in all areas. It didn't help as well that going into 2014 Ricciardo wasn't viewed as a superstar. Just the guy a bit better than Vergne.

I'm actually surprised but pleased at how much Vettel's reputation bounced back after 2014. I was worried that as he was not going to have a rematch with Ricciardo that people would fixate on the defeat. That hasn't happened though. IMO he gets far less unfair criticism now than he did when he was thrashing his opposition in 2011 or 2013.

I do think you are right though. It has left him vulnerable if he is beaten by again.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 4:45 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
But all of the mitigating circumstances for each driver are with regards to their team mates as the whole premise of these being bad years is due to the drivers performance compared to their team mates.

I mentioned both being new to the team as I feel it is important and saying Alonso was new to the team and tyres would be ignoring the fact Hamilton was too as was Kimi. So all three main title contenders were in a similar boat and Massa had a nice advantage over each of them.

Likewise Ricciardo being new to Red Bull and still beating Vettel makes that even worse for Vettel and Hamilton v Button in 2011 was a straight with both drivers bedded into the team. Although it was the first season on Pirelli's which didn't really make much difference although Hamilton did have a nightmare in race 2 at Malaysia going from fighting for the win to finishing 7th after falling off the cliff with the new Pirelli's, something he did in Japan too.

Generally with rule changes etc, I lean quite strongly toward - sink or swim, the best adapt etc etc.


How is it a mitigating factor for Alonso that both were "new" to the team and tyres?. It just makes no sense to me.

And we'll have to agree to disagree on it being the same for both of them in the first place for reasons posted earlier, I don't want to derail the thread on a small point that I don't think I'm making very well anyway.


Because the entire premise of it being a bad year is based on his performance against his team mate. So you draw the comparison against the team mate. I am just stating the strength of the mitigating circumstance can vary and they do need context.

IF Hamilton had experience of Bridgestones and had experience of racing for Mclaren on a race weekend then these mitigating circumstances for 2007 would be a lot stronger for Alonso. Lets say for arguments sake Alonso completed 2007 in a Renault on Michelins and then joined Hamilton at Mclaren for 2008. Hamilton had completed 2007 on Bridgestones, then the mitigating circumstances would be a LOT more mitigating in the case of Alonso because Hamilton would have a distinct advantage over him on the tyres and the team with that extra year. That was the point I was trying to portray by stating Hamilton was also new to tyres and the team. This is actually exactly what Kimi had to face when joining Ferrari and Massa was much better than him over the first 6-7 races.

I don't think Hamilton and Alonso's cases were directly comparable and I am not implying that, both had advantages and disadvantages and which had the bigger influence we will never know.

But unlike Kimi who jumped in performance from about race 6-7 on wards (against Massa) after his initial adaptation woes - Alonso never had a performance leap after acclimatising. In fact, the opposite occurred, it was Hamilton that got better. Alonso was 4-1 up in qualifying in the first 5 races and Hamilton had only out performed him in one race weekend (Bahrain) in that first 5 races. Hamilton did beat him in Spain too but only because Alonso went for the lead at turn 1, went through the gravel and lost 2-3 palces. Alonso finished ahead in all the other initial races.

Then from Monaco on wards they became pretty equal for the rest of the year if not Hamilton marginally stronger. Post Monaco, Hamilton out qualified him 5 times straight after being beaten 4-1 initially and winning qualifying 8-2 post Monaco. You could argue that after his back to back wins in Canada and USA, Alonso's awful Canada weekend and the fact Hamilton had 9 straight podiums at the start that the team moved toward him as the main WDC hope from around USA onwards


Still not understanding what I mean.

Why didn't you write "New rules for both" under Seb's mitigating circumstances?.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 5:39 pm 
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Lotus> Sorry I genuinely don't understand. Maybe it is because my entire analysis is based entirely on the head to head with the team mate and using the team mate as a yard stick to measure the season and give the mitigating circumstances.

But you are correct, I mentioned a bit earlier in discussion with SDLR, I wasn't actually even going to include "new rules" for Vettel as it was the same for everybody. But did so just to give him some mitigating circumstances for debate/discussion and not appear biased toward him as he doesn't really have any mitigating circumstances for 2014, he actually had an advantage over DR being in the team already but people say he mastered the EBD driving style so there is some credit to the notion the rules change killed his advantage much like Alonso was the master of working the Michelins (Fisichella never could drive the car like that).

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:59 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
lamo wrote:
Another point is, it really shows how important the team mate is in deciding how good an individual season or driver is...

During 2010-2013, the big question over Vettel was - lets see how he does against somebody other than Webber.

Likewise, Alonso in 2007. If they had Pedro in the car. Alonso likely wins about 6 races that season. Pedro doesn't win a single race. The Ferrari wins 10-11 races. Kimi is maligned for his slow adaptation to the car. Alonso is hailed as the outright best in the field for winning the title in a clearly inferior car (Massa , who Alonso thrashed the year before - is pulling Grand Chelems) and it goes down as a driver winning a title with a car disadvantage.

I think Alonso has done enough to completely secure his legacy as a top top driver and all time great.

Hamilton and Vettel in particularly are 1 more bad season from not being all time greats. If Vettel's next team mate beats him he will go down as just beating an old Kimi and slow Webber and winning titles in dominant cars.

Likewise, if Hamilton loses to his next team mate or Bottas gets the upper hand on him over the next seasons - he will go down as just an very good driver but only a bit better than other very good drivers (Button, Rosberg, Bottas).

But it can of course also go the other way, if Verstappen/Ricciardo/next big things joins Ferrari and Vettel comfortably beats him - he propels himself and completely secures his seat in the all time greats list without any questions marks over him at all. Hamilton has had enough good team mates to probably put himself up with the greatest of all time, he just needs to maintain where as I personally feel we need to see Vettel against 1 more driver - either trashing one more mid tier driver or edging out a top tier driver.


:thumbup:

Agree with all of this.

Vettel's 2014 season came at a bad time for him reputation wise. All the naysayers were saying he only looked good because of a dominant car and a weak team mate until 2014. Then 2014 came, no dominant car, young team mate and he was beaten. Not just beaten but well beaten in all areas. It didn't help as well that going into 2014 Ricciardo wasn't viewed as a superstar. Just the guy a bit better than Vergne.

I'm actually surprised but pleased at how much Vettel's reputation bounced back after 2014. I was worried that as he was not going to have a rematch with Ricciardo that people would fixate on the defeat. That hasn't happened though. IMO he gets far less unfair criticism now than he did when he was thrashing his opposition in 2011 or 2013.

I do think you are right though. It has left him vulnerable if he is beaten by again.


I'm quite surprised it bounced back too. Not that Vettel doesn't deserve a good reputation, but Ricciardo is a bit in the shadows atm. No one is talking about Ricciardo getting a chance in a top team. Sure Red Bull is a top team, but can't produce a WDC/WCC winning car with the current engine.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 7:02 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Lotus> Sorry I genuinely don't understand. Maybe it is because my entire analysis is based entirely on the head to head with the team mate and using the team mate as a yard stick to measure the season and give the mitigating circumstances.

But you are correct, I mentioned a bit earlier in discussion with SDLR, I wasn't actually even going to include "new rules" for Vettel as it was the same for everybody. But did so just to give him some mitigating circumstances for debate/discussion and not appear biased toward him as he doesn't really have any mitigating circumstances for 2014, he actually had an advantage over DR being in the team already but people say he mastered the EBD driving style so there is some credit to the notion the rules change killed his advantage much like Alonso was the master of working the Michelins (Fisichella never could drive the car like that).


I don't blame you, I'm making a pigs ear out of putting forward what I mean. It's such a small point but you wouldn't and didn't use the word both for "New rules" for Seb's mitigating circumstances because it's about Seb's mitigating circumstances, not Dan's, and as you say you needed something for his list.

But both is used for Alonso's and it's supposed to be his list and it just came across to me as if that was meant to dismiss the mitigating circumstance as soon as it's read if you see what I mean and because I know you're a Lewis fan I thought maybe that was from an unwillingness to put forward anything that might actually mitigate the loss but I think I'm wrong now as you clearly have no idea what I'm dribbling on about and I've been here long enough to know you're a fair poster so I've probably put 2+2 together here and came up with 5.

It really is a small thing but it jumped out at me and annoyed me :lol: I've not explained myself very well at all reading back so apologies and if you still don't know what I mean I don't think I can put it clearer so I'm happy to agree to disagree.

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