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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:11 am 
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OK, so I am sure many people will say that the track is more of a handling track vs a power track. Max and Kimi were .3 slower and BOTH of those guys were charging hard (Max obviously trying to catch Bottas). Those 2 were 0.03 apart. Yes, it may be a "handling course" but lets be totally honest, no way McLaren/Honda get the fastest lap being 50hp down on power. No way they get fastest lap on any course 1 or 2 years ago, or even a few months ago, on ANY track. So while this may have been a very favorable track for them, I still kind of wonder what is going on at McLaren/Honda.

Some have proposed that since it appeared that they would get 2 points paying positions, somehow they (Honda) allowed Fernando to turn up the power on his last lap to see just exactly where the car is prior to the long summer break. Who knows if this is something Alonso was able to talk the team into letting him do, or if it could have been initiated by McLaren or by Honda, but it sure seems to be an interesting development.

I know Alonso said that if they don't win by Sept, then he is gone. I kind of wonder if they continue to compete and get into some good battles and show very good promise (top 5 finishes) he stays at McLaren and McLaren stays with Honda. He doesn't have a ton of places to go and it might be wise to ride this wave.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:06 am 
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Both Kimi and Max were being held up directly in front of them by slower cars but still it is a fine achievement by Alonso. I think the decision he has to make in September is to take another punt on McLaren Honda next year or Indy series. I can't see Toro Rosso swapping their Renault engines for Honda next year to help McLaren and he would find more restrictions at Renault if he went there next year i.e. no Indy 500 for basically still a midfield car. He should have stayed at Ferrari as I believe he would be better than Vettel there but he chose to leave and then publicly berate the team ...

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:22 am 
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He's been going for the fastest lap a few times if he's either out of the points or has a big cushion and not's the first time he got it. I'm pretty sure I read he got it in Italy last year(?).

While it's kinda impressive he didn't need to pit for much fresher tyres like he's done before I don't think it's indicative of any hidden Honda pace or anything. All he does is a lap with no ers support before so they have a full compliment for that lap and make sure you have just enough fuel for running rich at the end and select the quali mode on that lap and away you go.

No-one else will be in their quali mode and will be harvesting and deploying as normal in race trim. I think it's the first time they did it without fresh rubber though which is good but it just highlights their awful peak power and race efficiency that they have to be in quali trim to achieve the same kind of pace the others run in sustain mode/race mode or whatever you want to call it.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:57 am 
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If "Fastest Lap" is to be the decision maker, then Nando is in big trouble. Personally, I find "Fastest Lap" to be one of the most meaningless records in all of sports, not just F1 racing. That is another reason why I don't value the "Grand Chelim" (sp?) as it is. When I see all kinds of excitement over this "grand" achievement, I just just have a good laugh. As shown by Alonso's fastest lap, it is often a matter of good fortune and certainly not an indicator of the fastest car (though it certainly can be the fastest car). Often, in F1, the lead driver has backed off, or perhaps several of the leaders. Sometimes it is merely a question of a car having the freshest tires, and light fuel loads. Sometimes it is because that particular car/driver has a very good reason to be pushing, either to make up a position or two, or to defend on.
No offense to Nando, who most of you know I feel is the best driver on the grid, but his Fastest Lap was certainly no indicator of the fastest car, nor the fastest car/driver on Sunday. All it is good for is a shot of confidence to him and the team...but an indicator of long term success??? I don't think so.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:20 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
He's been going for the fastest lap a few times if he's either out of the points or has a big cushion and not's the first time he got it. I'm pretty sure I read he got it in Italy last year(?).

While it's kinda impressive he didn't need to pit for much fresher tyres like he's done before I don't think it's indicative of any hidden Honda pace or anything. All he does is a lap with no ers support before so they have a full compliment for that lap and make sure you have just enough fuel for running rich at the end and select the quali mode on that lap and away you go.

No-one else will be in their quali mode and will be harvesting and deploying as normal in race trim. I think it's the first time they did it without fresh rubber though which is good but it just highlights their awful peak power and race efficiency that they have to be in quali trim to achieve the same kind of pace the others run in sustain mode/race mode or whatever you want to call it.


All good points Lotus49.

But here are additional facts. Alonso's fastest lap was on the penultimate lap, at 1:20.182. Vettel qualified on pole at 1:16.276, Alonso's Q3 time was 1:17.549. So the difference between race and qualifying settings is huge.

That lap was legitimate, and I for one admire and revel in such a wonderful lap. I was able to view it on YouTube. I will not post the link because there is a high probability the FOM will have it taken down and I respect PF1 enough not to put them in an uncomfortable position. I should not, I will not. But if anyone desires, a search for "Alonso Fastest Lap Onboard - 1:20.182 - 2017 Hungarian GP" may yield a result.

It was a beautiful lap.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 7:41 am 
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Yes, it's on the DHL channel on youtube. Beautiful lap indeed. The front end turn in is incredible. Might be the best in the field.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:24 am 
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Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:16 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:17 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?


http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... o%20Alonso

Lap 48 till checkered flag consistent 22's, and had 3 laps in the 20's !


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 10:24 am 
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Apart from HAM, who graciously gave up 7s, ALO was the slowest over the last 5 laps.

Image

Lap analysis can be found here

http://www.fia.com/events/fia-formula-o ... rmation-32


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:18 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He's been going for the fastest lap a few times if he's either out of the points or has a big cushion and not's the first time he got it. I'm pretty sure I read he got it in Italy last year(?).

While it's kinda impressive he didn't need to pit for much fresher tyres like he's done before I don't think it's indicative of any hidden Honda pace or anything. All he does is a lap with no ers support before so they have a full compliment for that lap and make sure you have just enough fuel for running rich at the end and select the quali mode on that lap and away you go.

No-one else will be in their quali mode and will be harvesting and deploying as normal in race trim. I think it's the first time they did it without fresh rubber though which is good but it just highlights their awful peak power and race efficiency that they have to be in quali trim to achieve the same kind of pace the others run in sustain mode/race mode or whatever you want to call it.


All good points Lotus49.

But here are additional facts. Alonso's fastest lap was on the penultimate lap, at 1:20.182. Vettel qualified on pole at 1:16.276, Alonso's Q3 time was 1:17.549. So the difference between race and qualifying settings is huge.

That lap was legitimate, and I for one admire and revel in such a wonderful lap. I was able to view it on YouTube. I will not post the link because there is a high probability the FOM will have it taken down and I respect PF1 enough not to put them in an uncomfortable position. I should not, I will not. But if anyone desires, a search for "Alonso Fastest Lap Onboard - 1:20.182 - 2017 Hungarian GP" may yield a result.

It was a beautiful lap.

YouTube is a free-for-all as far as we're concerned - as long as what a linked video shows isn't age restricted, it's not for us to police. If FOM take it down then there's a few dead links on the forum. Not the end of the world.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:05 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 12:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.

Or just trying to have some fun in a 6th place that isn't under threat. He was in a race of his own and has no championship challenge to think about, why not see how fast you can go? I doubt he expected to actually get the fastest lap anyway.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:15 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.

Or just trying to have some fun in a 6th place that isn't under threat. He was in a race of his own and has no championship challenge to think about, why not see how fast you can go? I doubt he expected to actually get the fastest lap anyway.

Yeah that's why he did it 3 times, Alonso has a reason for everything he does beyond just having fun, we are at the start of contract season.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:30 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.

Or just trying to have some fun in a 6th place that isn't under threat. He was in a race of his own and has no championship challenge to think about, why not see how fast you can go? I doubt he expected to actually get the fastest lap anyway.

Yeah that's why he did it 3 times, Alonso has a reason for everything he does beyond just having fun, we are at the start of contract season.

I think you're reading too much into it. Racing drivers like to go fast.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 2:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.


:lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.

Or just trying to have some fun in a 6th place that isn't under threat. He was in a race of his own and has no championship challenge to think about, why not see how fast you can go? I doubt he expected to actually get the fastest lap anyway.

Yeah that's why he did it 3 times, Alonso has a reason for everything he does beyond just having fun, we are at the start of contract season.

I think you're reading too much into it. Racing drivers like to go fast.

So why don't they all slow down for a few laps so they can have one really fast lap?

Drivers do it sometimes in F2 but that's to try and bag 2 points for fastest lap on a track were they consider they can't overtake.

Nominally were there is nothing to gain or lose drivers might look to be prudent and bring the car home particular a car that might suffer with reliability issues.

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:11 pm 
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Because most of the time drivers are consolidating their position. Alonso wouldn't have done it if he were in 1st place or even 3rd place, but he was in 6th place. 6th place is nothing to Alonso, he gets no enjoyment out of finishing there so he finds enjoyment in trying to set the fastest lap he can when the car is light at the end of the race.

It's not hard to see why he does it and talk of it being because it's contract season is obviously nonsense because as pointed out above he frequently does it. It just so happens that with the circuit suiting the car more, and the top 3 being held up by Vettel's broken steering, he actually got the fastest lap in the process.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Because most of the time drivers are consolidating their position. Alonso wouldn't have done it if he were in 1st place or even 3rd place, but he was in 6th place. 6th place is nothing to Alonso, he gets no enjoyment out of finishing there so he finds enjoyment in trying to set the fastest lap he can when the car is light at the end of the race.

I would say 6th place is a very good position for Alonso and it strengthens his position relative to his teammate, now if he was running outside of the points that would be different again and we have seen Alonso attempt to do similar in that position even pitting with a few laps to go for fresh tyres in order to try for fastest lap.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 3:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Anyone got his laptimes from the laps leading up to the fastest lap?

Yeah they're on the FIA website. Looks like he had 3 attempts in the last 10 laps.

Fast laps in bold:

60 - 1:22.627
61 - 1:20.841
62 - 1:22.666
63 - 1:22.636
64 - 1:22.778
65 - 1:20.745
66 - 1:21.730
67 - 1:21.847
68 - 1:22.429
69 - 1:20.182
70 - 1:22.662

Alonso loves trying to get himself in the spotlight.

Give over. He was having a laugh

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Blake wrote:
If "Fastest Lap" is to be the decision maker, then Nando is in big trouble. Personally, I find "Fastest Lap" to be one of the most meaningless records in all of sports, not just F1 racing. That is another reason why I don't value the "Grand Chelim" (sp?) as it is. When I see all kinds of excitement over this "grand" achievement, I just just have a good laugh. As shown by Alonso's fastest lap, it is often a matter of good fortune and certainly not an indicator of the fastest car (though it certainly can be the fastest car). Often, in F1, the lead driver has backed off, or perhaps several of the leaders. Sometimes it is merely a question of a car having the freshest tires, and light fuel loads. Sometimes it is because that particular car/driver has a very good reason to be pushing, either to make up a position or two, or to defend on.
No offense to Nando, who most of you know I feel is the best driver on the grid, but his Fastest Lap was certainly no indicator of the fastest car, nor the fastest car/driver on Sunday. All it is good for is a shot of confidence to him and the team...but an indicator of long term success??? I don't think so.


Grand Chelem is a big achievement, but you are right the fastest lap part is the component that makes it a little meaningless and lead every lap too. You can completely dominant and not get fastest lap and also not lead every lap. But one thing is for sure, its impossible to get a Grand Chelem and not completely dominate the entire weekend so it does tell you that.

For those that don't know, Grande Chelem = pole, win, fastest lap and lead every lap. The last two not being that important, for example Verstappen lead in Hungary due to strategy only and a car can set a fastest lap at the end by running a different strategy (nice fresh tyres at the end).

However, that wasn't the case with Alonso but you are right there was a big element of luck. He ran the same strategy as everybody else so it is a meaningful fastest lap in that respect. However the fastest 3 cars were bottle necked behind a limping Vettel so that took the fastest four cars out of contention. The surprising thing for me, is that Max didn't get it because he had fresher tyres than anybody else in the last stint and clean air too. Alonso should have been 2nd though, as he qualified 7th behind the big three teams and as mentioned all of those were out of contention except Max.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 5:14 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He's been going for the fastest lap a few times if he's either out of the points or has a big cushion and not's the first time he got it. I'm pretty sure I read he got it in Italy last year(?).

While it's kinda impressive he didn't need to pit for much fresher tyres like he's done before I don't think it's indicative of any hidden Honda pace or anything. All he does is a lap with no ers support before so they have a full compliment for that lap and make sure you have just enough fuel for running rich at the end and select the quali mode on that lap and away you go.

No-one else will be in their quali mode and will be harvesting and deploying as normal in race trim. I think it's the first time they did it without fresh rubber though which is good but it just highlights their awful peak power and race efficiency that they have to be in quali trim to achieve the same kind of pace the others run in sustain mode/race mode or whatever you want to call it.


All good points Lotus49.

But here are additional facts. Alonso's fastest lap was on the penultimate lap, at 1:20.182. Vettel qualified on pole at 1:16.276, Alonso's Q3 time was 1:17.549. So the difference between race and qualifying settings is huge.

That lap was legitimate, and I for one admire and revel in such a wonderful lap. I was able to view it on YouTube. I will not post the link because there is a high probability the FOM will have it taken down and I respect PF1 enough not to put them in an uncomfortable position. I should not, I will not. But if anyone desires, a search for "Alonso Fastest Lap Onboard - 1:20.182 - 2017 Hungarian GP" may yield a result.

It was a beautiful lap.


Oh it was a great lap no doubt, I saw it on YT yeah, very good and highlighted how well the car was performing too. I don't mean to downplay it. And not having to pit for fresh tyres is certainly a big plus.

I think most of that 2 and a half seconds difference between his Q and FL would be the tyres though. Fresh SS vs. 33 lap old Softs will be a fair chunk of the change. Boulier confirmed he was in quali trim for it and you can see the slow previous laps to save ERS.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:17 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
He's been going for the fastest lap a few times if he's either out of the points or has a big cushion and not's the first time he got it. I'm pretty sure I read he got it in Italy last year(?).

While it's kinda impressive he didn't need to pit for much fresher tyres like he's done before I don't think it's indicative of any hidden Honda pace or anything. All he does is a lap with no ers support before so they have a full compliment for that lap and make sure you have just enough fuel for running rich at the end and select the quali mode on that lap and away you go.

No-one else will be in their quali mode and will be harvesting and deploying as normal in race trim. I think it's the first time they did it without fresh rubber though which is good but it just highlights their awful peak power and race efficiency that they have to be in quali trim to achieve the same kind of pace the others run in sustain mode/race mode or whatever you want to call it.


All good points Lotus49.

But here are additional facts. Alonso's fastest lap was on the penultimate lap, at 1:20.182. Vettel qualified on pole at 1:16.276, Alonso's Q3 time was 1:17.549. So the difference between race and qualifying settings is huge.

That lap was legitimate, and I for one admire and revel in such a wonderful lap. I was able to view it on YouTube. I will not post the link because there is a high probability the FOM will have it taken down and I respect PF1 enough not to put them in an uncomfortable position. I should not, I will not. But if anyone desires, a search for "Alonso Fastest Lap Onboard - 1:20.182 - 2017 Hungarian GP" may yield a result.

It was a beautiful lap.


Oh it was a great lap no doubt, I saw it on YT yeah, very good and highlighted how well the car was performing too. I don't mean to downplay it. And not having to pit for fresh tyres is certainly a big plus.

I think most of that 2 and a half seconds difference between his Q and FL would be the tyres though. Fresh SS vs. 33 lap old Softs will be a fair chunk of the change. Boulier confirmed he was in quali trim for it and you can see the slow previous laps to save ERS.


Ah...that explains it. He also didn't have DRS so that also adds to the difference to his Q3 lap. But yeah...it was a mega lap, but clearly not representative of the rest of the field's potential fastest lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Yeah forgot about drs, good shout.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:20 pm 
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My point in this thread wasn't to say that Alonso is the fastest driver in the fastest car. The post was made to point out that McLaren/Honda might just be making some strides (he did qualif P6 right?). They are getting to the point of almost being the "best of the rest" which is a HUGE stride compared to a few months ago.

Next step is to be consistently in that range and start to get to be a few tenths off of the leaders.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I would say 6th place is a very good position for Alonso and it strengthens his position relative to his teammate, now if he was running outside of the points that would be different again and we have seen Alonso attempt to do similar in that position even pitting with a few laps to go for fresh tyres in order to try for fastest lap.

I'm not sure it's really possible to strengthen his standing over his teammate at this point. That's like saying Vettel strengthens his standing over Kimi by beating him.

I don't see any reason to think Alonso had a particular aim, aside from - obviously - setting the fastest lap. He might have wanted to prove the car could do it, to prove he could do it, to alleviate the boredom of running totally alone for the whole race, to get himself and/or Macca back into the discussion, etc. People complain about Alonso and his showboating, but the truth is, he's keeping Macca in the spotlight along with himself. If they didn't have Alonso driving for them, how much attention do you think they'd be getting this year? Alonso is the only talisman they have to ward off truly bring thought of as midfield. The anti-Alonso brigade may only see him glorifying himself, but I'm sure Macca doesn't see it that way.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 11:37 pm 
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He qualified 8th behind Hulkenberg so the Renault is still ahead.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... ngary.html

The fundamental point is that Alonso is not interested in being best of the rest but winning again like he once regularly did. I would say currently he has a better chance in Indy than any of the current 2018 F1 options available to him at the moment. I think he's currently holding out for a McLaren Renault next year because there's a theory going around that Red Bull want Honda as a second engine supplier for Toro Rosso to provide some sort of engine backup for the main team if Renault falters in the future.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKBN1AG1CN

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:52 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I would say 6th place is a very good position for Alonso and it strengthens his position relative to his teammate, now if he was running outside of the points that would be different again and we have seen Alonso attempt to do similar in that position even pitting with a few laps to go for fresh tyres in order to try for fastest lap.

I'm not sure it's really possible to strengthen his standing over his teammate at this point. That's like saying Vettel strengthens his standing over Kimi by beating him.

I don't see any reason to think Alonso had a particular aim, aside from - obviously - setting the fastest lap. He might have wanted to prove the car could do it, to prove he could do it, to alleviate the boredom of running totally alone for the whole race, to get himself and/or Macca back into the discussion, etc. People complain about Alonso and his showboating, but the truth is, he's keeping Macca in the spotlight along with himself. If they didn't have Alonso driving for them, how much attention do you think they'd be getting this year? Alonso is the only talisman they have to ward off truly bring thought of as midfield. The anti-Alonso brigade may only see him glorifying himself, but I'm sure Macca doesn't see it that way.

No I was thinking more in terms of him scoring more points than Vandoorne, in hard terms the WDC denotes who beat who even though those that watch would know the true score.

What Alonso does may well bring more attention to McLaren but I wouldn't say that it's all good attention in particular to Honda, but the main objective is to get the attention on him so he stays as relevant as possible on the driver market.

I look at times were he bolts on a new set of tyres late in the race to try and get fastest lap, Button was in the same boat as Alonso but never felt the need to do the same, that's Alonso having fun, nah I don't believe it, Alonso is a very sharp individual and there's always an objective to the things he does, that's what I believe.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:58 am 
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mas wrote:
He qualified 8th behind Hulkenberg so the Renault is still ahead.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... ngary.html

The fundamental point is that Alonso is not interested in being best of the rest but winning again like he once regularly did. I would say currently he has a better chance in Indy than any of the current 2018 F1 options available to him at the moment. I think he's currently holding out for a McLaren Renault next year because there's a theory going around that Red Bull want Honda as a second engine supplier for Toro Rosso to provide some sort of engine backup for the main team if Renault falters in the future.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKBN1AG1CN

That's an interesting development, regarding Alonso he is only interested in the Indy500, Indy Car racing itself would only pay a fraction of what he earns in F1 plus the lottery nature of the races would probably not interest him, he got a taste of what a lottery the racing is in the Indy500 but that's such an important race he would put up with it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:35 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
He qualified 8th behind Hulkenberg so the Renault is still ahead.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... ngary.html

The fundamental point is that Alonso is not interested in being best of the rest but winning again like he once regularly did. I would say currently he has a better chance in Indy than any of the current 2018 F1 options available to him at the moment. I think he's currently holding out for a McLaren Renault next year because there's a theory going around that Red Bull want Honda as a second engine supplier for Toro Rosso to provide some sort of engine backup for the main team if Renault falters in the future.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKBN1AG1CN

That's an interesting development, regarding Alonso he is only interested in the Indy500, Indy Car racing itself would only pay a fraction of what he earns in F1 plus the lottery nature of the races would probably not interest him, he got a taste of what a lottery the racing is in the Indy500 but that's such an important race he would put up with it.

What is more intersting is how from a statement in the article that McLaren has to come up with a competitive car to keep him(Alonso) you come uo with Alonso "is ONLY interested in the Indy 500" and that the so-called "lottery nature" of Indy racing would not interest him??? Where does the article say tgat? Am I missing something?

Perhaps your so-called "lottery" racing with a chance to win would be of more interest to him than racing where 6th place and a fastest lap is cause for celebration because it is the best he has seen in nearly 3 years.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I would say 6th place is a very good position for Alonso and it strengthens his position relative to his teammate, now if he was running outside of the points that would be different again and we have seen Alonso attempt to do similar in that position even pitting with a few laps to go for fresh tyres in order to try for fastest lap.

I'm not sure it's really possible to strengthen his standing over his teammate at this point. That's like saying Vettel strengthens his standing over Kimi by beating him.

I don't see any reason to think Alonso had a particular aim, aside from - obviously - setting the fastest lap. He might have wanted to prove the car could do it, to prove he could do it, to alleviate the boredom of running totally alone for the whole race, to get himself and/or Macca back into the discussion, etc. People complain about Alonso and his showboating, but the truth is, he's keeping Macca in the spotlight along with himself. If they didn't have Alonso driving for them, how much attention do you think they'd be getting this year? Alonso is the only talisman they have to ward off truly bring thought of as midfield. The anti-Alonso brigade may only see him glorifying himself, but I'm sure Macca doesn't see it that way.

No I was thinking more in terms of him scoring more points than Vandoorne, in hard terms the WDC denotes who beat who even though those that watch would know the true score.

What Alonso does may well bring more attention to McLaren but I wouldn't say that it's all good attention in particular to Honda, but the main objective is to get the attention on him so he stays as relevant as possible on the driver market.

I look at times were he bolts on a new set of tyres late in the race to try and get fastest lap, Button was in the same boat as Alonso but never felt the need to do the same, that's Alonso having fun, nah I don't believe it, Alonso is a very sharp individual and there's always an objective to the things he does, that's what I believe.


Button did the same a few times but always when out of the points, he was turned down once as well as there was an outside chance of a points finish if something happened in front, I think it was Russia last year. (Same as Alonso in Canada last year that Sky tried to turn into a quit request).

And Button usually tried the quali mode trick at the end of races just as much as Alonso regardless of their tyre situation, you'll notice most of his FL's in 2015/16 came in the last couple of laps after a couple of slow ones to save up the charge and fuel if you check that McLaren-F1 site.

Just no-one cares when he does it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:20 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
If "Fastest Lap" is to be the decision maker, then Nando is in big trouble. Personally, I find "Fastest Lap" to be one of the most meaningless records in all of sports, not just F1 racing. That is another reason why I don't value the "Grand Chelim" (sp?) as it is. When I see all kinds of excitement over this "grand" achievement, I just just have a good laugh. As shown by Alonso's fastest lap, it is often a matter of good fortune and certainly not an indicator of the fastest car (though it certainly can be the fastest car). Often, in F1, the lead driver has backed off, or perhaps several of the leaders. Sometimes it is merely a question of a car having the freshest tires, and light fuel loads. Sometimes it is because that particular car/driver has a very good reason to be pushing, either to make up a position or two, or to defend on.
No offense to Nando, who most of you know I feel is the best driver on the grid, but his Fastest Lap was certainly no indicator of the fastest car, nor the fastest car/driver on Sunday. All it is good for is a shot of confidence to him and the team...but an indicator of long term success??? I don't think so.


Grand Chelem is a big achievement, but you are right the fastest lap part is the component that makes it a little meaningless and lead every lap too. You can completely dominant and not get fastest lap and also not lead every lap. But one thing is for sure, its impossible to get a Grand Chelem and not completely dominate the entire weekend so it does tell you that.

For those that don't know, Grande Chelem = pole, win, fastest lap and lead every lap. The last two not being that important, for example Verstappen lead in Hungary due to strategy only and a car can set a fastest lap at the end by running a different strategy (nice fresh tyres at the end).

However, that wasn't the case with Alonso but you are right there was a big element of luck. He ran the same strategy as everybody else so it is a meaningful fastest lap in that respect. However the fastest 3 cars were bottle necked behind a limping Vettel so that took the fastest four cars out of contention. The surprising thing for me, is that Max didn't get it because he had fresher tyres than anybody else in the last stint and clean air too. Alonso should have been 2nd though, as he qualified 7th behind the big three teams and as mentioned all of those were out of contention except Max.


For me this "Grande Chelem" is a meh thing. Most of the time, it is in an incredibly boring race where the win (barring misfortune) was never in doubt. And with the same odds, the car itself is the dominant factor. So a driver lucks into the best car, and on that day everything works right. IMO it becomes more a demonstration of technology and the guys back at the factory making good engineering decisions. I get exactly the same rush watching an airliner take off.

I want to see driver to driver competition, them fighting tooth and nail nose to tail for every lap in intense PERSONAL COMPETITION.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blake wrote:
If "Fastest Lap" is to be the decision maker, then Nando is in big trouble. Personally, I find "Fastest Lap" to be one of the most meaningless records in all of sports, not just F1 racing. That is another reason why I don't value the "Grand Chelim" (sp?) as it is. When I see all kinds of excitement over this "grand" achievement, I just just have a good laugh. As shown by Alonso's fastest lap, it is often a matter of good fortune and certainly not an indicator of the fastest car (though it certainly can be the fastest car). Often, in F1, the lead driver has backed off, or perhaps several of the leaders. Sometimes it is merely a question of a car having the freshest tires, and light fuel loads. Sometimes it is because that particular car/driver has a very good reason to be pushing, either to make up a position or two, or to defend on.
No offense to Nando, who most of you know I feel is the best driver on the grid, but his Fastest Lap was certainly no indicator of the fastest car, nor the fastest car/driver on Sunday. All it is good for is a shot of confidence to him and the team...but an indicator of long term success??? I don't think so.


Grand Chelem is a big achievement, but you are right the fastest lap part is the component that makes it a little meaningless and lead every lap too. You can completely dominant and not get fastest lap and also not lead every lap. But one thing is for sure, its impossible to get a Grand Chelem and not completely dominate the entire weekend so it does tell you that.

For those that don't know, Grande Chelem = pole, win, fastest lap and lead every lap. The last two not being that important, for example Verstappen lead in Hungary due to strategy only and a car can set a fastest lap at the end by running a different strategy (nice fresh tyres at the end).

However, that wasn't the case with Alonso but you are right there was a big element of luck. He ran the same strategy as everybody else so it is a meaningful fastest lap in that respect. However the fastest 3 cars were bottle necked behind a limping Vettel so that took the fastest four cars out of contention. The surprising thing for me, is that Max didn't get it because he had fresher tyres than anybody else in the last stint and clean air too. Alonso should have been 2nd though, as he qualified 7th behind the big three teams and as mentioned all of those were out of contention except Max.


For me this "Grande Chelem" is a meh thing. Most of the time, it is in an incredibly boring race where the win (barring misfortune) was never in doubt. And with the same odds, the car itself is the dominant factor. So a driver lucks into the best car, and on that day everything works right. IMO it becomes more a demonstration of technology and the guys back at the factory making good engineering decisions. I get exactly the same rush watching an airliner take off.

I want to see driver to driver competition, them fighting tooth and nail nose to tail for every lap in intense PERSONAL COMPETITION.

Fully agree the Grand Chelem is given far too much prominence most of the time. It's as much a consequence of circumstance as anything else


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:49 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
He qualified 8th behind Hulkenberg so the Renault is still ahead.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... ngary.html

The fundamental point is that Alonso is not interested in being best of the rest but winning again like he once regularly did. I would say currently he has a better chance in Indy than any of the current 2018 F1 options available to him at the moment. I think he's currently holding out for a McLaren Renault next year because there's a theory going around that Red Bull want Honda as a second engine supplier for Toro Rosso to provide some sort of engine backup for the main team if Renault falters in the future.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKBN1AG1CN

That's an interesting development, regarding Alonso he is only interested in the Indy500, Indy Car racing itself would only pay a fraction of what he earns in F1 plus the lottery nature of the races would probably not interest him, he got a taste of what a lottery the racing is in the Indy500 but that's such an important race he would put up with it.

What is more intersting is how from a statement in the article that McLaren has to come up with a competitive car to keep him(Alonso) you come uo with Alonso "is ONLY interested in the Indy 500" and that the so-called "lottery nature" of Indy racing would not interest him??? Where does the article say tgat? Am I missing something?

Perhaps your so-called "lottery" racing with a chance to win would be of more interest to him than racing where 6th place and a fastest lap is cause for celebration because it is the best he has seen in nearly 3 years.

I was replying to what the poster said and his own speculation regarding Alonso, it seems he can have his opinions about what Alonso might be thinking but I can't?

Also you seemed to miss the money part out of what I said, maybe that bit you agreed with?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:26 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I would say 6th place is a very good position for Alonso and it strengthens his position relative to his teammate, now if he was running outside of the points that would be different again and we have seen Alonso attempt to do similar in that position even pitting with a few laps to go for fresh tyres in order to try for fastest lap.

I'm not sure it's really possible to strengthen his standing over his teammate at this point. That's like saying Vettel strengthens his standing over Kimi by beating him.

I don't see any reason to think Alonso had a particular aim, aside from - obviously - setting the fastest lap. He might have wanted to prove the car could do it, to prove he could do it, to alleviate the boredom of running totally alone for the whole race, to get himself and/or Macca back into the discussion, etc. People complain about Alonso and his showboating, but the truth is, he's keeping Macca in the spotlight along with himself. If they didn't have Alonso driving for them, how much attention do you think they'd be getting this year? Alonso is the only talisman they have to ward off truly bring thought of as midfield. The anti-Alonso brigade may only see him glorifying himself, but I'm sure Macca doesn't see it that way.

No I was thinking more in terms of him scoring more points than Vandoorne, in hard terms the WDC denotes who beat who even though those that watch would know the true score.

What Alonso does may well bring more attention to McLaren but I wouldn't say that it's all good attention in particular to Honda, but the main objective is to get the attention on him so he stays as relevant as possible on the driver market.

I look at times were he bolts on a new set of tyres late in the race to try and get fastest lap, Button was in the same boat as Alonso but never felt the need to do the same, that's Alonso having fun, nah I don't believe it, Alonso is a very sharp individual and there's always an objective to the things he does, that's what I believe.


Button did the same a few times but always when out of the points, he was turned down once as well as there was an outside chance of a points finish if something happened in front, I think it was Russia last year. (Same as Alonso in Canada last year that Sky tried to turn into a quit request).

And Button usually tried the quali mode trick at the end of races just as much as Alonso regardless of their tyre situation, you'll notice most of his FL's in 2015/16 came in the last couple of laps after a couple of slow ones to save up the charge and fuel if you check that McLaren-F1 site.

Just no-one cares when he does it.

I've looked through the 2015 season and only once do I see Button stopping late in the race for fresh tyres but I don't see any banzai fastest lap, Alonso also stopped late for fresh tyres in the same race but not quite as late as Button and I see a lap 2 seconds faster than any other lap he manages, also 2 seconds a lap quicker than any lap that Button manages.

Then another race that season Alonso stops late for tyres and posts a lap 3 seconds faster than any other lap he manages and nearly 3 seconds faster than any lap that Button manages.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:25 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I would say 6th place is a very good position for Alonso and it strengthens his position relative to his teammate, now if he was running outside of the points that would be different again and we have seen Alonso attempt to do similar in that position even pitting with a few laps to go for fresh tyres in order to try for fastest lap.

I'm not sure it's really possible to strengthen his standing over his teammate at this point. That's like saying Vettel strengthens his standing over Kimi by beating him.

I don't see any reason to think Alonso had a particular aim, aside from - obviously - setting the fastest lap. He might have wanted to prove the car could do it, to prove he could do it, to alleviate the boredom of running totally alone for the whole race, to get himself and/or Macca back into the discussion, etc. People complain about Alonso and his showboating, but the truth is, he's keeping Macca in the spotlight along with himself. If they didn't have Alonso driving for them, how much attention do you think they'd be getting this year? Alonso is the only talisman they have to ward off truly bring thought of as midfield. The anti-Alonso brigade may only see him glorifying himself, but I'm sure Macca doesn't see it that way.

No I was thinking more in terms of him scoring more points than Vandoorne, in hard terms the WDC denotes who beat who even though those that watch would know the true score.

What Alonso does may well bring more attention to McLaren but I wouldn't say that it's all good attention in particular to Honda, but the main objective is to get the attention on him so he stays as relevant as possible on the driver market.

I look at times were he bolts on a new set of tyres late in the race to try and get fastest lap, Button was in the same boat as Alonso but never felt the need to do the same, that's Alonso having fun, nah I don't believe it, Alonso is a very sharp individual and there's always an objective to the things he does, that's what I believe.


Button did the same a few times but always when out of the points, he was turned down once as well as there was an outside chance of a points finish if something happened in front, I think it was Russia last year. (Same as Alonso in Canada last year that Sky tried to turn into a quit request).

And Button usually tried the quali mode trick at the end of races just as much as Alonso regardless of their tyre situation, you'll notice most of his FL's in 2015/16 came in the last couple of laps after a couple of slow ones to save up the charge and fuel if you check that McLaren-F1 site.

Just no-one cares when he does it.

I've looked through the 2015 season and only once do I see Button stopping late in the race for fresh tyres but I don't see any banzai fastest lap, Alonso also stopped late for fresh tyres in the same race but not quite as late as Button and I see a lap 2 seconds faster than any other lap he manages, also 2 seconds a lap quicker than any lap that Button manages.

Then another race that season Alonso stops late for tyres and posts a lap 3 seconds faster than any other lap he manages and nearly 3 seconds faster than any lap that Button manages.


And?. We know Alonso has tried it lots of times, and he's got it before, I'm just saying so did Button a few times. Both with and without stopping for fresh rubber.

China 2016 is another he stopped for fresh rubber although he didn't say specifically he wanted the FL but to have some fun.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:35 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:51 pm 
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So the McLarens seem to be fairly quick in this Hungary testing going on. Anyone have any idea if there is a reason for it compared to the other competition? (ie-is this an indication that Honda has found some power or is everyone else just playing around with different settings?)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 4:59 pm 
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rodH wrote:
So the McLarens seem to be fairly quick in this Hungary testing going on. Anyone have any idea if there is a reason for it compared to the other competition? (ie-is this an indication that Honda has found some power or is everyone else just playing around with different settings?)

It's testing, no one has any ideas what fuel loads/engine settings everyone else is using. Just look at Mercedes for example, and Ferrari were around a second off Saturday's pole time.

Everyone runs their own programmes during these days, Ferrari may have been focusing on medium/high fuel while McLaren were testing low fuel qualifying runs. You can't really read much into the times.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mas wrote:
He qualified 8th behind Hulkenberg so the Renault is still ahead.

https://www.formula1.com/en/latest/head ... ngary.html

The fundamental point is that Alonso is not interested in being best of the rest but winning again like he once regularly did. I would say currently he has a better chance in Indy than any of the current 2018 F1 options available to him at the moment. I think he's currently holding out for a McLaren Renault next year because there's a theory going around that Red Bull want Honda as a second engine supplier for Toro Rosso to provide some sort of engine backup for the main team if Renault falters in the future.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... KKBN1AG1CN

That's an interesting development, regarding Alonso he is only interested in the Indy500, Indy Car racing itself would only pay a fraction of what he earns in F1 plus the lottery nature of the races would probably not interest him, he got a taste of what a lottery the racing is in the Indy500 but that's such an important race he would put up with it.

What is more intersting is how from a statement in the article that McLaren has to come up with a competitive car to keep him(Alonso) you come uo with Alonso "is ONLY interested in the Indy 500" and that the so-called "lottery nature" of Indy racing would not interest him??? Where does the article say tgat? Am I missing something?

Perhaps your so-called "lottery" racing with a chance to win would be of more interest to him than racing where 6th place and a fastest lap is cause for celebration because it is the best he has seen in nearly 3 years.

I was replying to what the poster said and his own speculation regarding Alonso, it seems he can have his opinions about what Alonso might be thinking but I can't?

Also you seemed to miss the money part out of what I said, maybe that bit you agreed with?


Since you are placing a heavy emphasis on money, let's discuss it. For 2017 Alonso has the largest salary, at 41 million. Hamilton is 31, Vettel 30. So let us agree that he is the one laughing the most. I expect the argument "but he isn't in a winning car" to pop up, and this leads us into Indycar. I doubt if you watch very much Indycar, but while it may appear to be random, in the long run the cream rises to the top. The best drivers may suffer terribly as some races, but by year's end they are almost always in the hunt for the title. And one thing Indycar possess that Formula One sorely lacks is competition between drivers. In Formula One the order is fixed not by the driver, but the car. In Indycar, the driver does make a difference. And they get to enjoy constant wheel to wheel competition.

In achieving the fastest race lap, Alonso was probably posturing, proving to all that "he still has it", and this is one more bullet in his ammunition of contract negotiations. But more than anything (just my opinion) he did it because it's very rewarding and pleasurable. To put down a near immaculate lap, to extract the full measure of what the car can offer is what drivers yearn for.

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