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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 750
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
He has been involved in too many stuff but you always imply he is innocent.

I am not sure what you trying to say. A block is a block and it doesn't matter if you are doing it with a clock in your hand.
And(again) you are trying to rewrite history that I doubt now you have watched when it happened.
I have listened to Fabrizio Borra live(in 2007) and to Antonio Lobato and I can assure you that the intentions of Ron Dennis were not those you had in mind.


So in your opinion Mclaren lost their constructors points because....


I explained it above.
We were talking about Alonso's 5 places grid Penalty after a fellow forumer was wondering why Alonso was penalised but not Hamilton.
There were in total 2 penalties(for the team and Alonso) .


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:19 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14176
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
He has been involved in too many stuff but you always imply he is innocent.

I am not sure what you trying to say. A block is a block and it doesn't matter if you are doing it with a clock in your hand.
And(again) you are trying to rewrite history that I doubt now you have watched when it happened.
I have listened to Fabrizio Borra live(in 2007) and to Antonio Lobato and I can assure you that the intentions of Ron Dennis were not those you had in mind.


So in your opinion Mclaren lost their constructors points because....


I explained it above.
We were talking about Alonso's 5 places grid Penalty after a fellow forumer was wondering why Alonso was penalised but not Hamilton.
There were in total 2 penalties(for the team and Alonso) .


So the team was penalised because.... I don't see that explanation in what you have written? Could you please spell it out to me?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:23 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 750
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
He has been involved in too many stuff but you always imply he is innocent.

I am not sure what you trying to say. A block is a block and it doesn't matter if you are doing it with a clock in your hand.
And(again) you are trying to rewrite history that I doubt now you have watched when it happened.
I have listened to Fabrizio Borra live(in 2007) and to Antonio Lobato and I can assure you that the intentions of Ron Dennis were not those you had in mind.


So in your opinion Mclaren lost their constructors points because....


I explained it above.
We were talking about Alonso's 5 places grid Penalty after a fellow forumer was wondering why Alonso was penalised but not Hamilton.
There were in total 2 penalties(for the team and Alonso) .


So the team was penalised because.... I don't see that explanation in what you have written? Could you please spell it out to me?


You know very well why the team was penalised. And in the case you can not get it from my "confused" posts, you can find relevant articles on google.
I am not sure if you are looking for my version of the facts or the official one.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 14176
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
He has been involved in too many stuff but you always imply he is innocent.

I am not sure what you trying to say. A block is a block and it doesn't matter if you are doing it with a clock in your hand.
And(again) you are trying to rewrite history that I doubt now you have watched when it happened.
I have listened to Fabrizio Borra live(in 2007) and to Antonio Lobato and I can assure you that the intentions of Ron Dennis were not those you had in mind.


So in your opinion Mclaren lost their constructors points because....


I explained it above.
We were talking about Alonso's 5 places grid Penalty after a fellow forumer was wondering why Alonso was penalised but not Hamilton.
There were in total 2 penalties(for the team and Alonso) .


So the team was penalised because.... I don't see that explanation in what you have written? Could you please spell it out to me?


You know very well why the team was penalised. And in the case you can not get it from my "confused" posts, you can find relevant articles on google.
It was not for the Spy Story anyway.


I know why I think the team was penalised. I believe it was for their part in orchestrating the blocking of Hamilton? What else could it be for?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2032
Pullrod wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

It was his decision.
Alonso was not only stripped from Pole but he was given a 5 places grid penalty for a reason.
Had he done nothing wrong, he would have kept 2°.
The smart thing to do would have been to carry on and complain at the end of qualifying, but he decided he knew better.
Don't believe the stuff people make up. All the mechanics(who also have radio) were begging him to leave.



The team was stripped of its points because of what happened internally between HAM, ALO and the team. Those are 2 different penalties of which 1 is Alonso own doing.

This is what happened:
McLaren used to alternate their driver for the last Q3 run(at the beginning of the year it was mainly benefiting Alonso but it changed after Monaco).
The race before(European Gp at Nurburgring), HAM suffered from a tyre puncture and heavily crashed his car. so ALO had his "free" last Q3 run.


In Hungary(the next race), HAM decided (against what was suggested by the team) to do the last Q3 run because he didn't want ALO to have his 2nd consecutive last Q3 run(HAM "didn't" take part in the last race Q3 because of his crash).
Remember that in 2007 they were doing their Q3 laps with fuel onboard so the guy who was last usually carried less fuel than his teammate. This is exactly what happened.


You are right, Hamilton deliberately disobeyed TOs in order to harm his teammate (hear, hear ... ;) ). That was the starting point. Whoever decided to retaliate - Dennis, Alonso, Alonso's engineer (there are wildly different opinions and witness reports from insiders on this, so we cannot really know in all fairness) - I always thought it was done clumsily. Notwithstanding, I still wonder how one case of deterring your teammate was deemed to be punishable whereas the other was not. A black day for FIA stewarding, one of many. (1)

Still, without the fishy penalty Alonso would most likely have won the wdc - and a McLaren wdc would just not have been right in my eyes in that particular year, for all their clumsy-to-stupid dealing with the Stepney-Coughlan-affair. (2)

By the way, all the way from Budapest '07 to Budapest '17 shows how much Hamilton has grown up and matured. Truly one of the best or maybe even the best on the grid.


(1) I provided context. McLaren tried their best to be fair but the decision not to give HAM the best fuel strategy after what happened the race before where he didn't take part of qualifying because of a tyre puncture is what triggered all of this. And despite what Ron Dennis said, not all the engineers agreed about that(ALO's camp was happy, but HAM's camp felt cheated). The "disciplinary" sanction from the FIA to invalidate the team's points for that weekend originated from there.
The thing that was a big NO NO was to deliberately impede (to block!) your teammate from doing his Q3 run. And as you know this is a serious offense and it is still punishable to this day. This is where ALO's 5 places penalty comes from.
Like I said before, the fuel strategies mainly benefited ALO before Canada(where HAM scored his 1st pole and 1st win).


(2) Alonso could have won the WDC that year had he not crashed in Fuji in the rain or had a disastrous start in Canada.
The same could be said for Hamilton who lost it in China and partially at Nurburgring(but in this case he had a major crash just a day before in qualifying and was not 100% fit) or if his gearbox didn't abandon him in Brazil. Nothing was given that year and the driver who was favorited at the beginning of the year was Alonso before they started to rigidly alternate fuel strategies after Hamilton complaint.


1. Hamilton deliberately disobeyed TO. It doesn' t matter whether he agreed with the order or not. By disobeying the TO he was going to impede Alonso's shot on pole, the retaliation impeded Hamilton's shot on pole. In effect, it's the same, only the way differs. For me, that's either grid penalty for both or for none. FIA stewarding meant that the original wrongdoer and impeder, who kicked-off and caused the whole affair, was essentially promoted. That cannot possibly called a fair outcome from an unbiased perspective.

2. Lot's of things happened. But ceteris paribus Alonso most likely would have won the wdc without the one-sided penalty. Difficult to deny.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 750
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

So in your opinion Mclaren lost their constructors points because....


I explained it above.
We were talking about Alonso's 5 places grid Penalty after a fellow forumer was wondering why Alonso was penalised but not Hamilton.
There were in total 2 penalties(for the team and Alonso) .


So the team was penalised because.... I don't see that explanation in what you have written? Could you please spell it out to me?


You know very well why the team was penalised. And in the case you can not get it from my "confused" posts, you can find relevant articles on google.
It was not for the Spy Story anyway.


I know why I think the team was penalised. I believe it was for their part in orchestrating the blocking of Hamilton? What else could it be for?



No.
There was no orchestrating as Alonso was livid because he thought what was happening was an injustice(not the penalty but Hamilton ....... ).
They were penalised for the fight(behind the scenes) that ensued with conflicting opinions and versions of the fact. FIA guys don't like liars or conflicting reporting(Australia 2009, Monaco 2006).
There were radio communications that were never released but we know the seconds Alonso was "blocking" Hamilton, he was on the radio chatting with the engineers asking "difficult" questions.
Hamilton was on the radio too..but for different reasons. A mess.


Last edited by Pullrod on Fri Aug 25, 2017 2:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 1:50 pm 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 750
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

It was his decision.
Alonso was not only stripped from Pole but he was given a 5 places grid penalty for a reason.
Had he done nothing wrong, he would have kept 2°.
The smart thing to do would have been to carry on and complain at the end of qualifying, but he decided he knew better.
Don't believe the stuff people make up. All the mechanics(who also have radio) were begging him to leave.



The team was stripped of its points because of what happened internally between HAM, ALO and the team. Those are 2 different penalties of which 1 is Alonso own doing.

This is what happened:
McLaren used to alternate their driver for the last Q3 run(at the beginning of the year it was mainly benefiting Alonso but it changed after Monaco).
The race before(European Gp at Nurburgring), HAM suffered from a tyre puncture and heavily crashed his car. so ALO had his "free" last Q3 run.


In Hungary(the next race), HAM decided (against what was suggested by the team) to do the last Q3 run because he didn't want ALO to have his 2nd consecutive last Q3 run(HAM "didn't" take part in the last race Q3 because of his crash).
Remember that in 2007 they were doing their Q3 laps with fuel onboard so the guy who was last usually carried less fuel than his teammate. This is exactly what happened.


You are right, Hamilton deliberately disobeyed TOs in order to harm his teammate (hear, hear ... ;) ). That was the starting point. Whoever decided to retaliate - Dennis, Alonso, Alonso's engineer (there are wildly different opinions and witness reports from insiders on this, so we cannot really know in all fairness) - I always thought it was done clumsily. Notwithstanding, I still wonder how one case of deterring your teammate was deemed to be punishable whereas the other was not. A black day for FIA stewarding, one of many. (1)

Still, without the fishy penalty Alonso would most likely have won the wdc - and a McLaren wdc would just not have been right in my eyes in that particular year, for all their clumsy-to-stupid dealing with the Stepney-Coughlan-affair. (2)

By the way, all the way from Budapest '07 to Budapest '17 shows how much Hamilton has grown up and matured. Truly one of the best or maybe even the best on the grid.


(1) I provided context. McLaren tried their best to be fair but the decision not to give HAM the best fuel strategy after what happened the race before where he didn't take part of qualifying because of a tyre puncture is what triggered all of this. And despite what Ron Dennis said, not all the engineers agreed about that(ALO's camp was happy, but HAM's camp felt cheated). The "disciplinary" sanction from the FIA to invalidate the team's points for that weekend originated from there.
The thing that was a big NO NO was to deliberately impede (to block!) your teammate from doing his Q3 run. And as you know this is a serious offense and it is still punishable to this day. This is where ALO's 5 places penalty comes from.
Like I said before, the fuel strategies mainly benefited ALO before Canada(where HAM scored his 1st pole and 1st win).


(2) Alonso could have won the WDC that year had he not crashed in Fuji in the rain or had a disastrous start in Canada.
The same could be said for Hamilton who lost it in China and partially at Nurburgring(but in this case he had a major crash just a day before in qualifying and was not 100% fit) or if his gearbox didn't abandon him in Brazil. Nothing was given that year and the driver who was favorited at the beginning of the year was Alonso before they started to rigidly alternate fuel strategies after Hamilton complaint.


1. Hamilton deliberately disobeyed TO. It doesn' t matter whether he agreed with the order or not. By disobeying the TO he was going to impede Alonso's shot on pole, the retaliation impeded Hamilton's shot on pole. In effect, it's the same, only the way differs. For me, that's either grid penalty for both or for none. FIA stewarding meant that the original wrongdoer and impeder, who kicked-off and caused the whole affair, was essentially promoted. That cannot possibly called a fair outcome from an unbiased perspective.

2. Lot's of things happened. But ceteris paribus Alonso most likely would have won the wdc without the one-sided penalty. Difficult to deny.


1. Hamilton had his reasons to retaliate and were considered legitimate. He could not do the previous Q3, so according to him, his engineers and in the spirit of McLaren fairness, Hungary last run should have been his(his opinion).
Alonso blocked Hamilton whom could not even begin his lap. Big diffference.

2. Without HAM's puncture at Nurburgring, Without ALO fuel advantage at the beginning of the year, without HAM gearbox failure in Brazil, HAM most likely would have won the WDC. Does this one sounds better?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2032
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
I explained it above.
We were talking about Alonso's 5 places grid Penalty after a fellow forumer was wondering why Alonso was penalised but not Hamilton.
There were in total 2 penalties(for the team and Alonso) .


So the team was penalised because.... I don't see that explanation in what you have written? Could you please spell it out to me?


You know very well why the team was penalised. And in the case you can not get it from my "confused" posts, you can find relevant articles on google.
It was not for the Spy Story anyway.


I know why I think the team was penalised. I believe it was for their part in orchestrating the blocking of Hamilton? What else could it be for?



No.
There was no orchestrating as Alonso was livid because he thought what was happening was an injustice(not the penalty but Hamilton ....... ).
They were penalised for the fight(behind the scenes) that ensued with conflicting opinions and versions of the fact. FIA guys don't like liars or conflicting reporting(Australia 2009, Monaco 2006).
There were radio communications that were never released but we know the seconds Alonso was "blocking" Hamilton, he was on the radio chatting with the engineers asking "difficult" questions.
Hamilton was on the radio too..but for different reasons. A mess.


Can you please provide a source for the content that you claim to know from the never released radio communications?


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:27 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2032
And to the above:

1. Hamilton may feel the team decision was unfair. But that's just an opinion and obviously you can have different ones on that. But it does not change the fact that Hamilton disobeyed the TO, impeded Alonso's pole run first, and by his wrongdoing started the mess, in which course others did wrong as well.

2. What you write has nothing to do with my statement and does not change its truth.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 5:49 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 750
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

So the team was penalised because.... I don't see that explanation in what you have written? Could you please spell it out to me?


You know very well why the team was penalised. And in the case you can not get it from my "confused" posts, you can find relevant articles on google.
It was not for the Spy Story anyway.


I know why I think the team was penalised. I believe it was for their part in orchestrating the blocking of Hamilton? What else could it be for?



No.
There was no orchestrating as Alonso was livid because he thought what was happening was an injustice(not the penalty but Hamilton ....... ).
They were penalised for the fight(behind the scenes) that ensued with conflicting opinions and versions of the fact. FIA guys don't like liars or conflicting reporting(Australia 2009, Monaco 2006).
There were radio communications that were never released but we know the seconds Alonso was "blocking" Hamilton, he was on the radio chatting with the engineers asking "difficult" questions.
Hamilton was on the radio too..but for different reasons. A mess.


Can you please provide a source for the content that you claim to know from the never released radio communications?


You will not find a source on google.
I know my stuff and you will learn more about it when Alonso and Hamilton careers will be over.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:21 am 
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Joined: Tue Dec 23, 2014 1:04 pm
Posts: 750
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
And to the above:

1. Hamilton may feel the team decision was unfair. But that's just an opinion and obviously you can have different ones on that. But it does not change the fact that Hamilton disobeyed the TO, impeded Alonso's pole run first, and by his wrongdoing started the mess, in which course others did wrong as well.

2. What you write has nothing to do with my statement and does not change its truth.


2. There is no truth in your statement because it is wrong. What happened before(and after) would have an influence on the WDC. You are cheating your way out of the "Black box" to affirm things you can not prove.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:03 pm 
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Joined: Sat May 26, 2012 2:04 pm
Posts: 2032
Pullrod wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

You know very well why the team was penalised. And in the case you can not get it from my "confused" posts, you can find relevant articles on google.
It was not for the Spy Story anyway.


I know why I think the team was penalised. I believe it was for their part in orchestrating the blocking of Hamilton? What else could it be for?



No.
There was no orchestrating as Alonso was livid because he thought what was happening was an injustice(not the penalty but Hamilton ....... ).
They were penalised for the fight(behind the scenes) that ensued with conflicting opinions and versions of the fact. FIA guys don't like liars or conflicting reporting(Australia 2009, Monaco 2006).
There were radio communications that were never released but we know the seconds Alonso was "blocking" Hamilton, he was on the radio chatting with the engineers asking "difficult" questions.
Hamilton was on the radio too..but for different reasons. A mess.


Can you please provide a source for the content that you claim to know from the never released radio communications?


You will not find a source on google.
I know my stuff and you will learn more about it when Alonso and Hamilton careers will be over.


In other words, you made it up.


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