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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 2:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

He only had to wait 1 season and he forced one Alain Prost out of his seat nonetheless.

Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?

And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:36 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

He only had to wait 1 season and he forced one Alain Prost out of his seat nonetheless.

Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?

And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.


This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 6:48 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Blake wrote:
And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.

Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:03 am 
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Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Blake wrote:
And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.

Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)


Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:09 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

No, Brundle is under attacking because he was talking BS. He'd have got the same if it was Lewis, and whenever Jackie Stewart criticizes Hamilton, there are no shortage of Lewis fans who pile on him and insult him and his legacy. It's the same, you're just not willing to admit it.

Hamilton fans are aggressive in different ways. They don't go around telling you he's the best straight out, they just get extremely defensive if you imply he might not be. It's subtly different, but check any driver of the day thread, and you'll find an argument about why nobody but Lewis deserved it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 3:13 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

Not sure why you are making comparisons some 20 odd years apart, nor why you would feel that this somehow invalidates Alonso's claims of driving ability.

Horner rejected Hamilton back in 2012. Not because he didn't think Hamilton was a good driver, but because he felt that he would be a disruptive influence with Vettel. In the same year, LdM rejected the idea of Vettel joining Ferrari, with his famous "two roosters in a hen house" comments. Now if you interpret that as the current drivers being better, then logically that would mean that the consensus among the TPs was Alonso>Vettel>Hamilton. But there's no reason to draw that conclusion. It's equally likely that had, say, Hamilton already been at Red Bull, then Horner wouldn't have wanted to take on Vettel for exactly the same reasons. But again, that wouldn't necessarily have been a judgement on driving ability.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 5:16 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?


I had to carefully read this thread to obtain a definition on "people who count". It appears you just mean people who can count "1 - 2 - 3", instead of those worthy of consideration and respect.

Anyone who postures as being knowledgeable while just accessing Wiki and skimming the numbers off the win/loss column is wading in very shallow water, and lacks a knowledge of the vast history of the sport. Did you know Hawthorn was not exactly an angel, and had little respect from many of his competitors? If one just skims off the win/loss column, such figures as Moss, Villeneuve, or Alesi would appear as barely mid field runners. Yet they are revered and idolized by many fans who watched or were very aware of these drivers.

To properly gauge a driver it can not be performed until at least twenty years after they retired. To look at today's numbers and state "My driver has more wins and titles, thus he's better, neener neener neener" reeks of shallow and immature thinking. Of the top three drivers, Alonso, Hamilton, or Vettel, each one is at the top of his game and given the correct car, can win on any day. As drivers they are all superb. But as we are well aware, each one has very different personalities and behaviors. They take turns doing questionable actions that invoke criticism, triggering crazy and excessive reactions by some fans.

Each Formula One team is a cauldron of deals and politics. Just because any driver is not signed to a team does not indicate he is crap. Many times, deals have been secretly signed, and everyone is waiting for the countdown. Who knows, Alonso could have a signed contract in his hip pocket, and we are none the wiser. Between the teams and driver agents, they are in a perpetual and busy flurry of negotiations and seeking opportunities. This is a constant process, a driver's agent is expected to never stop phoning, to never stop meeting everyone.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 7:00 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
... Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion...
Do you have another rod handy?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:00 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Blake wrote:
And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.

Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)


Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:02 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Blake wrote:
And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.

Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)


Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.


Alonso is the best of his generation. I don't even think it's particularly close. I'm not an Alonso fan though so not sure I count?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:40 pm 
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Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:45 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.

It's a good point. How do you define "generation?"


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:47 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.


Obviously it's subjective but I think of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc as the first post Schumacher generation. Alonso only raced four seasons out of 15 so far without Hamilton and Vettel. They've had almost their entire careers together.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.


Obviously it's subjective but I think of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc as the first post Schumacher generation. Alonso only raced four seasons out of 15 so far without Hamilton and Vettel. They've had almost their entire careers together.

I'd probably go with that. I'd say Verstappen is next gen


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


No he couldn't. And neither can any current driver on the grid.

Which team would have turned Senna away?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:02 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

He only had to wait 1 season and he forced one Alain Prost out of his seat nonetheless.

Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?

He didn't force Prost out, Prost just retired because he didn't want to partner him again. Williams would definitely have let them both drive at the same time if Prost had been willing.

You're also ignoring the difference in age, being in the opposite direction for Alonso. Senna was the choice of the future, coming into a team with an older top driver. Alonso isn't; either Hamilton or Vettel is expected to be around much longer than him.

Being the best driver doesn't mean you can just dictate where you want to go regardless of other factors, even if Alonso is the best. It never has, and it still doesn't. Lewis couldn't just go to Ferrari if he wanted to either, and Seb couldn't just go to Mercedes. Max clearly can't just go wherever he wants, or he'd have left already. There isn't any driver who can do that, and - with the possible exception of Fangio - I don't believe there's ever been one who could. Senna replacing Prost at Williams was not as simple as you make it sound.

It's the same thing Williams would have known that Prost would not stay although I see your point about the age difference?

I would say also that Schumacher had the choice of were to drive and he chose Ferrari, the point I'm making about Alonso is that if he was a cut above the other top drivers then he would have more choice then he presently has, the people that matter must think otherwise.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:04 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

He only had to wait 1 season and he forced one Alain Prost out of his seat nonetheless.

Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?

And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

The people at Ferrari and Mercedes and what you think about Alonso doesn't seem to carry as much weight with them.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


No he couldn't. And neither can any current driver on the grid.

Which team would have turned Senna away?


Williams in 92 and 93. If Senna could do as he chooses, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, he would have been in those cars for those years.

He couldn't.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

No, Brundle is under attacking because he was talking BS. He'd have got the same if it was Lewis, and whenever Jackie Stewart criticizes Hamilton, there are no shortage of Lewis fans who pile on him and insult him and his legacy. It's the same, you're just not willing to admit it.

Hamilton fans are aggressive in different ways. They don't go around telling you he's the best straight out, they just get extremely defensive if you imply he might not be. It's subtly different, but check any driver of the day thread, and you'll find an argument about why nobody but Lewis deserved it.

Yes this different way is being told that Hamilton is inferior to both Alonso and Vettel. ;)

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

Not sure why you are making comparisons some 20 odd years apart, nor why you would feel that this somehow invalidates Alonso's claims of driving ability.

Horner rejected Hamilton back in 2012. Not because he didn't think Hamilton was a good driver, but because he felt that he would be a disruptive influence with Vettel. In the same year, LdM rejected the idea of Vettel joining Ferrari, with his famous "two roosters in a hen house" comments. Now if you interpret that as the current drivers being better, then logically that would mean that the consensus among the TPs was Alonso>Vettel>Hamilton. But there's no reason to draw that conclusion. It's equally likely that had, say, Hamilton already been at Red Bull, then Horner wouldn't have wanted to take on Vettel for exactly the same reasons. But again, that wouldn't necessarily have been a judgement on driving ability.

You're actually just making the point I was making which gives us Alonso = Vettel = Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?


I had to carefully read this thread to obtain a definition on "people who count". It appears you just mean people who can count "1 - 2 - 3", instead of those worthy of consideration and respect.

Anyone who postures as being knowledgeable while just accessing Wiki and skimming the numbers off the win/loss column is wading in very shallow water, and lacks a knowledge of the vast history of the sport. Did you know Hawthorn was not exactly an angel, and had little respect from many of his competitors? If one just skims off the win/loss column, such figures as Moss, Villeneuve, or Alesi would appear as barely mid field runners. Yet they are revered and idolized by many fans who watched or were very aware of these drivers.

To properly gauge a driver it can not be performed until at least twenty years after they retired. To look at today's numbers and state "My driver has more wins and titles, thus he's better, neener neener neener" reeks of shallow and immature thinking. Of the top three drivers, Alonso, Hamilton, or Vettel, each one is at the top of his game and given the correct car, can win on any day. As drivers they are all superb. But as we are well aware, each one has very different personalities and behaviors. They take turns doing questionable actions that invoke criticism, triggering crazy and excessive reactions by some fans.

Each Formula One team is a cauldron of deals and politics. Just because any driver is not signed to a team does not indicate he is crap. Many times, deals have been secretly signed, and everyone is waiting for the countdown. Who knows, Alonso could have a signed contract in his hip pocket, and we are none the wiser. Between the teams and driver agents, they are in a perpetual and busy flurry of negotiations and seeking opportunities. This is a constant process, a driver's agent is expected to never stop phoning, to never stop meeting everyone.

I was thinking of the people at Ferrari and Mercedes then I guess you then used your own interpretation of what I meant?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.


Obviously it's subjective but I think of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc as the first post Schumacher generation. Alonso only raced four seasons out of 15 so far without Hamilton and Vettel. They've had almost their entire careers together.

I too consider Nando, Lewis, Seb & Kimi as one generatio.... post Schumi, DC, Ralf is a good a way of putting it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:21 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Blake wrote:
And you speak for the "people that count"??? That is a bit arrogant, is it not? Just who are these people who "count"? There are many who feel that Alonso is the best of his generation... like it or not.

This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.

Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)


Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.

I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:23 pm 
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P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.

I think it's hard to class Alonso and Hamilton as being a different generation with there only being 3 years difference in their ages.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


No he couldn't. And neither can any current driver on the grid.

Which team would have turned Senna away?


Williams in 92 and 93. If Senna could do as he chooses, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, he would have been in those cars for those years.

He couldn't.

Did Senna want to join Williams in 1992 and was he not under contract, other than that he only had to wait 1 year after he informed Williams he wanted to join them, there are 3 seats available at Ferrari and Mercedes next year and Alonso is out of contract, how does the greatest driver of his generation miss out on that?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:35 pm 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.


Obviously it's subjective but I think of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc as the first post Schumacher generation. Alonso only raced four seasons out of 15 so far without Hamilton and Vettel. They've had almost their entire careers together.

I too consider Nando, Lewis, Seb & Kimi as one generatio.... post Schumi, DC, Ralf is a good a way of putting it.

That seems about right.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Teams being overly cautious in all honesty. How else do you account for the Kimi situation? Big teams are very reluctant to change their driver lineup. Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull very rarely make a change that isn't forced.

It doesn't just effect Alonso. Hamilton couldn't move to Ferrari and Vettel couldn't move to Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
This kind of aggressive defence whenever someones dares to question Alonso status as the "best" of this generation only happen with him.
Since 2007, the "best" tag belongs it seems, only to Alonso and has been rarely used for Hamilton or Vettel.
I recall whenever he was having a good run, we would have a "Top 10/20 list thread" popping up on here. If only the stock market could be this predictable...

Like it or not, there are also many (people who count) who think that the best driver is British/German.

Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)


Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.

I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


After he had posted that and not from an Alonso fan.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:42 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


No he couldn't. And neither can any current driver on the grid.

Which team would have turned Senna away?


Williams in 92 and 93. If Senna could do as he chooses, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, he would have been in those cars for those years.

He couldn't.

Did Senna want to join Williams in 1992 and was he not under contract, other than that he only had to wait 1 year after he informed Williams he wanted to join them, there are 3 seats available at Ferrari and Mercedes next year and Alonso is out of contract, how does the greatest driver of his generation miss out on that?


Right, so he couldn't do as he chooses and walk into any team.

No-one can.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Didn't Senna drove for McLaren on a race-by-race basis in 93 because he rejected to sign a contract because he desperately tried to get into a better drive/team?

He also offered to drive for free, didn't he.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:00 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 10:06 pm 
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IMO, Hamilton and Alonso are the best of their generation with Vettel a little bit behind. Ricciardo may slot in between them. Räikkönen, Massa, Webber, Kubica etc. are a level below (which is still superb), probably not much better than Hülkenberg, Perez, Heidfeld, Fisichella and co. Rosberg, Button and Bottas I would see above this level.

The next generation looks exciting as well: Verstappen, Ocon, Leclerc, Norris. Maybe, Wehrlein, Vandoorne and Sainz can be there as well, though atm I see them a bit below. Probably, Rosenqvist would belong here as well if he got a chance in F1. Gasly, Joel Eriksson, Russel maybe as well.
I would love to mention Mick Schumacher here but I am skeptical (actually this Habsburg guy is looking better atm). Well, one can hope.

I certainly forgot some. But I do think we are approaching the change of a generation in the next years.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 6:18 am 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Although from the human side I do hope Mr Brundle heals and feels better, the guy is really starting to irritate me. His cynicism and negativity towards 90% of the sport really makes me want to change the channel. I wish some members were around when Murray Walker was commenting. Yes, he made many errors and weird statements. But his love for the sport and positive passion was what made him unique. Now we have a mouthpiece more informed, but just reeking of dark and negative crap.

Racing is a celebration of life, it should not be darkened by petty bickering and needless cynicism



This is off late in my opinion. He wasn't so opinionated and neither was he so pro Hamilton. Currently I feel the entire BBC commentary team sits and discusses Hamilton's race and how can Hamilton win the championship. I understand it is UK National driving and the UK - UK connection between driver and the channel. But expect much better from BBC. It is renowned all over the world for quality journalism and news coverage.

Maybe DC and Karun Chandok are to blame. :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:09 am 
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Velocity wrote:
This is off late in my opinion. He wasn't so opinionated and neither was he so pro Hamilton. Currently I feel the entire BBC commentary team sits and discusses Hamilton's race and how can Hamilton win the championship. I understand it is UK National driving and the UK - UK connection between driver and the channel. But expect much better from BBC. It is renowned all over the world for quality journalism and news coverage.

Maybe DC and Karun Chandok are to blame. :lol:

And yet, bizarrely enough, I hear people talking about how biased against Hamilton they are...

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:38 am 
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Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.


Obviously it's subjective but I think of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc as the first post Schumacher generation. Alonso only raced four seasons out of 15 so far without Hamilton and Vettel. They've had almost their entire careers together.

I too consider Nando, Lewis, Seb & Kimi as one generatio.... post Schumi, DC, Ralf is a good a way of putting it.


I think it's very hard to determine. How long is a generation? If there was a "Schumi" generation, it would be 15 years long (his second career would probably be left out of it). If it was like that then you couldn't really exclude the new drivers like Verstappen and Vandoorne from the Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel one.

So because Schumi had such a long career I think you could consider him to span generations.

Personally, I do tend to think of the likes of Alonso, Kimi and Button in the same generation. Then Hamilton, Vettel and drivers up to, but not including Verstappen in another.

But this is entirely subjective, others quite justifiably think differently.

So really "best driver of his generation" doesn't really mean anything.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 8:54 am 
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Herb wrote:
Blake wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
P-F1 Mod wrote:
Given how this thread has evolved, I have a slightly different question: is every driver on the grid today of the same generation? Or is it perhaps fair to say that Alonso and Raikkonen are of one, Hamilton/Vettel/everyone who came in until, say, the end of 2013, are another, and then there's a new young generation too? I mean, I doubt many would say that everyone Schumacher raced against was of one generation. Senna and Alonso certainly aren't of the same generation, but Schumacher competed against both.

Not saying this is necessarily a fair way to break it down, and the years I chose to divide generations are purely arbitrary and plucked from the ether, but I wonder if that changes how people perceive the 'best in their generation' drivers, and whether it's theoretically possible to say we have two such drivers on the grid simultaneously, or even more if you rate, say, Verstappen or Ocon or someone else in the most recent of the above generations.


Obviously it's subjective but I think of Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel etc as the first post Schumacher generation. Alonso only raced four seasons out of 15 so far without Hamilton and Vettel. They've had almost their entire careers together.

I too consider Nando, Lewis, Seb & Kimi as one generatio.... post Schumi, DC, Ralf is a good a way of putting it.


I think it's very hard to determine. How long is a generation? If there was a "Schumi" generation, it would be 15 years long (his second career would probably be left out of it). If it was like that then you couldn't really exclude the new drivers like Verstappen and Vandoorne from the Alonso/Hamilton/Vettel one.

So because Schumi had such a long career I think you could consider him to span generations.

Personally, I do tend to think of the likes of Alonso, Kimi and Button in the same generation. Then Hamilton, Vettel and drivers up to, but not including Verstappen in another.

But this is entirely subjective, others quite justifiably think differently.

So really "best driver of his generation" doesn't really mean anything.


I think it comes down to period of success rather than just being there. For me the Schumacher Generation would be 94-04. Then the post Schumacher generation 05 -

I think generations are naturally getting longer due to careers getting longer. Before the Schumacher generation you would've had the Senna/Prost generation 84-94.

I couldn't put Hamilton and Vettel in a separate generation as Alonso as they started only within a few years on one another. Nobody would put Senna and Prost in a separate generation but Prost drove for almost as many seasons before Senna made his debut as Alonso did pre Hamilton and Vettel.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:27 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Apart from the one year they had the same car Alonso wasn't clearly better than Ham, they were fairly equal and Ham was a rookie...


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:28 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Not true. There are highly aggressive Hamilton fans who defend his status as the best, and there used to be quite a few for Vettel as well, before 2014. They've begun to resurface since then, as well.

Each of the 'Big Three' has very aggressive defenders in his fan base, and each of them has a much larger number of more moderate fans. These discussions would go more easily if nobody felt the need for that manner of aggression but, sadly, aggression breeds aggression. Hence why you decided to aggressively attack Alonso fans over the perceived aggression of Alonso fans. ;)


Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.

I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


After he had posted that and not from an Alonso fan.

I didn't mean mikeyg, maybe the other poster is not an Alonso fan either, I'm just wondering who are the Alonso fans?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:31 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

No he couldn't. And neither can any current driver on the grid.

Which team would have turned Senna away?


Williams in 92 and 93. If Senna could do as he chooses, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, he would have been in those cars for those years.

He couldn't.

Did Senna want to join Williams in 1992 and was he not under contract, other than that he only had to wait 1 year after he informed Williams he wanted to join them, there are 3 seats available at Ferrari and Mercedes next year and Alonso is out of contract, how does the greatest driver of his generation miss out on that?


Right, so he couldn't do as he chooses and walk into any team.

No-one can.

Obviously existing contracts have to be honoured first, after saying he would drive for Williams for free it didn't really take him that long to get the drive, contrast this with Alonso's situation.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:34 am 
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Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2012 1:30 pm
Posts: 23901
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Your post came after the post I replied to so it wasn't you I was referencing, people can't remember all they read, I would be guilty of that as well.

_________________
PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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