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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 8:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
He was getting beat in 2012. Was he destabilising the team then?

By Massa methinks you miss the point?

Are we not talking about Alonso driving at Mercedes or Ferrari for next year?

What evidence do we have that a) he would be beaten by either HAM or VET, or b) that he would destabilise the team? There appears to be a lot of assumptions going on here

Were did I say that Vettel or Hamilton would beat him, so what reason is there for either Ferrari or Mercedes not signing him?

when you said:

The not going to plan thing would be finding himself getting beat by either Vettel or Hamilton then you risk Alonso destabalising the team

Replying to a post that said if things didn't go to plan for Alonso.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
By Massa methinks you miss the point?

Are we not talking about Alonso driving at Mercedes or Ferrari for next year?

What evidence do we have that a) he would be beaten by either HAM or VET, or b) that he would destabilise the team? There appears to be a lot of assumptions going on here

Were did I say that Vettel or Hamilton would beat him, so what reason is there for either Ferrari or Mercedes not signing him?

when you said:

The not going to plan thing would be finding himself getting beat by either Vettel or Hamilton then you risk Alonso destabalising the team

Replying to a post that said if things didn't go to plan for Alonso.

OK I'm perhaps getting a bit confused because to me it looks as though you are suggesting Alonso would destabilise the team should he find himself getting beaten by Hamilton or Vettel?


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 9:30 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
In all honesty Alonso is yesterdays man in F1, Mclaren and his fans can keep hoping and people can in their own opinion claim he is the best, but it will remain what it is.

Sporting heroes are remembered by reality and not perception.

Opinions can differ, but not the record books.

How do you demean F1 simple find Martin Brundle, when a 4x , 1x WDC and a future WDC stand on the podium but no that does not matter Alonso is better than them, but funny thing is every team he goes to one way or the other faces a downward trend, whereas the guys they claim he is better than when they arrive at a team, the team faces an upward trend.

As you lay your bed so shall you lie in it, he has made his bed and F1 needs to move on from the side show he has become now.

You don't half talk a load of bollocks


You can call it whatever you want but the truth hurts simple, irrespective of what happens going forward he has become a sideshow.

Last time he won a title Hamilton was in GP2, Vettel was still a Friday driver for BMW this two guys have 7 titles between them now.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 12:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
What evidence do we have that a) he would be beaten by either HAM or VET, or b) that he would destabilise the team? There appears to be a lot of assumptions going on here

Were did I say that Vettel or Hamilton would beat him, so what reason is there for either Ferrari or Mercedes not signing him?

when you said:

The not going to plan thing would be finding himself getting beat by either Vettel or Hamilton then you risk Alonso destabalising the team

Replying to a post that said if things didn't go to plan for Alonso.

OK I'm perhaps getting a bit confused because to me it looks as though you are suggesting Alonso would destabilise the team should he find himself getting beaten by Hamilton or Vettel?

Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:09 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Were did I say that Vettel or Hamilton would beat him, so what reason is there for either Ferrari or Mercedes not signing him?

when you said:

The not going to plan thing would be finding himself getting beat by either Vettel or Hamilton then you risk Alonso destabalising the team

Replying to a post that said if things didn't go to plan for Alonso.

OK I'm perhaps getting a bit confused because to me it looks as though you are suggesting Alonso would destabilise the team should he find himself getting beaten by Hamilton or Vettel?

Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
when you said:

The not going to plan thing would be finding himself getting beat by either Vettel or Hamilton then you risk Alonso destabalising the team

Replying to a post that said if things didn't go to plan for Alonso.

OK I'm perhaps getting a bit confused because to me it looks as though you are suggesting Alonso would destabilise the team should he find himself getting beaten by Hamilton or Vettel?

Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Replying to a post that said if things didn't go to plan for Alonso.

OK I'm perhaps getting a bit confused because to me it looks as though you are suggesting Alonso would destabilise the team should he find himself getting beaten by Hamilton or Vettel?

Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:20 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
OK I'm perhaps getting a bit confused because to me it looks as though you are suggesting Alonso would destabilise the team should he find himself getting beaten by Hamilton or Vettel?

Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place

Wins: Abu Dhabi 2017
Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 4:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?


Because Alonso's the only one who could cause a problem in this scenario?. The other two being such famously calm characters.

Those teams don't want him for the same reason the teams Lewis wanted to go to didn't want him in 2012. There's no room at the inn as they already have one of the best on their books and there's no need to rock the boat . Let's see if Alonso's 3rd choice pays off the same way as it did for Lewis if he takes a gamble on Renault as Lewis did on Mercedes or if he sticks with McLaren.

Though I'd wager if he gambles it won't turn out quite as well as it did for Lewis.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 5:11 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
In all honesty Alonso is yesterdays man in F1, Mclaren and his fans can keep hoping and people can in their own opinion claim he is the best, but it will remain what it is.

Sporting heroes are remembered by reality and not perception.

Opinions can differ, but not the record books.

How do you demean F1 simple find Martin Brundle, when a 4x , 1x WDC and a future WDC stand on the podium but no that does not matter Alonso is better than them, but funny thing is every team he goes to one way or the other faces a downward trend, whereas the guys they claim he is better than when they arrive at a team, the team faces an upward trend.

As you lay your bed so shall you lie in it, he has made his bed and F1 needs to move on from the side show he has become now.

You don't half talk a load of bollocks


You can call it whatever you want but the truth hurts simple, irrespective of what happens going forward he has become a sideshow.

Last time he won a title Hamilton was in GP2, Vettel was still a Friday driver for BMW this two guys have 7 titles between them now.

The greatest aren't measured by the number of titles they've won. That's how a child thinks

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:08 pm 
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Although from the human side I do hope Mr Brundle heals and feels better, the guy is really starting to irritate me. His cynicism and negativity towards 90% of the sport really makes me want to change the channel. I wish some members were around when Murray Walker was commenting. Yes, he made many errors and weird statements. But his love for the sport and positive passion was what made him unique. Now we have a mouthpiece more informed, but just reeking of dark and negative crap.

Racing is a celebration of life, it should not be darkened by petty bickering and needless cynicism

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:17 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
In all honesty Alonso is yesterdays man in F1, Mclaren and his fans can keep hoping and people can in their own opinion claim he is the best, but it will remain what it is.

Sporting heroes are remembered by reality and not perception.

Opinions can differ, but not the record books.

How do you demean F1 simple find Martin Brundle, when a 4x , 1x WDC and a future WDC stand on the podium but no that does not matter Alonso is better than them, but funny thing is every team he goes to one way or the other faces a downward trend, whereas the guys they claim he is better than when they arrive at a team, the team faces an upward trend.

As you lay your bed so shall you lie in it, he has made his bed and F1 needs to move on from the side show he has become now.

You don't half talk a load of bollocks


You can call it whatever you want but the truth hurts simple, irrespective of what happens going forward he has become a sideshow.

Last time he won a title Hamilton was in GP2, Vettel was still a Friday driver for BMW this two guys have 7 titles between them now.

The greatest aren't measured by the number of titles they've won. That's how a child thinks



Yet to see a sport where the greats aren't measured by their accolades.

Oh I see why Alonso wants to win 3WDC's to be a legend, he thinks like a child.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:22 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
In all honesty Alonso is yesterdays man in F1, Mclaren and his fans can keep hoping and people can in their own opinion claim he is the best, but it will remain what it is.

Sporting heroes are remembered by reality and not perception.

Opinions can differ, but not the record books.

How do you demean F1 simple find Martin Brundle, when a 4x , 1x WDC and a future WDC stand on the podium but no that does not matter Alonso is better than them, but funny thing is every team he goes to one way or the other faces a downward trend, whereas the guys they claim he is better than when they arrive at a team, the team faces an upward trend.

As you lay your bed so shall you lie in it, he has made his bed and F1 needs to move on from the side show he has become now.

You don't half talk a load of bollocks


You can call it whatever you want but the truth hurts simple, irrespective of what happens going forward he has become a sideshow.

Last time he won a title Hamilton was in GP2, Vettel was still a Friday driver for BMW this two guys have 7 titles between them now.

The greatest aren't measured by the number of titles they've won. That's how a child thinks


Oh I see why Alonso believes 3WDC's makes him a legend, he thinks like a cnild.


He wants the same as his hero now he can't break any records, seems a fair goal.

And he's already a legend of the sport, not sure how that's even debatable. His wider Motorsport career post F1 will just grow it.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:

He wants the same as his hero now he can't break any records, seems a fair goal.

And he's already a legend of the sport, not sure how that's even debatable. His wider Motorsport career post F1 will just grow it.


He is not a legend of the sport perception differs from reality.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:28 pm 
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Who is more "legendary" in the sport? Stirling Moss or Mike Hawthorn? Gilles Villeneuve or Jody Scheckter?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:53 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Who is more "legendary" in the sport? Stirling Moss or Mike Hawthorn? Gilles Villeneuve or Jody Scheckter?

Rockie is frantically Googling who these people are

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 7:58 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

He wants the same as his hero now he can't break any records, seems a fair goal.

And he's already a legend of the sport, not sure how that's even debatable. His wider Motorsport career post F1 will just grow it.


He is not a legend of the sport perception differs from reality.


How so?. He's still widely regarded as one of the best, if not the best, on the grid at 36 and has been for over a decade. That sort of longevity and the stats he does have across his career alone gets you in. Then the fluff...

He went toe to toe with Schumacher without much if any a car advantage twice and won twice. Missed 3 other titles by 1pt,3pts and 4pts across 2 other teams without being in the quickest or best car. Has one of the best seasons in history under his belt in 2012. Has over 30 wins,20poles and 90 podiums despite never being in dominant machinery for an entire season unlike his rivals. Has won for 3 different teams and 3 different engine manufacturers. Has the best qualifying record on the grid vs. team mates despite facing 4 WDC's(3 over a full season).

Pure denial that he won't be remembered as a legend even if he never wins again in F1 or even IndyCar and WEC after it. He's not some 24 year old untested newcomer that's about to be found out for goodness sake, everything from here on out that's good will just grow that legend and bad would be put down to age.

Gilles and Sir Stirling are legends too, as are lots of drivers with worse stats than Alonso. You're genuinely the first person I've come across that doesn't think he's a legend and I know plenty that hate him with a passion.

WHERE you place him is a whole different story of course but denying he's in there is a new one on me.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:27 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Who is more "legendary" in the sport? Stirling Moss or Mike Hawthorn? Gilles Villeneuve or Jody Scheckter?

Rockie is frantically Googling who these people are


:lol: :thumbup:


Though I doubt he cares about any of these names.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 8:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yes that's what I'm saying might happen and what might concern either Ferrari or Mercedes.

Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.


Yeah but we heard from the guy himself(2014, 2015, 2016!!) and many on here that he can choose where to drive because he is so much better than the two other multi WDC (HAM /VET) who can only win with dominant cars. :) Too many coincidences. Dominant cars and stuff.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:15 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.


Yeah but we heard from the guy himself(2014, 2015, 2016!!) and many on here that he can choose where to drive because he is so much better than the two other multi WDC (HAM /VET) who can only win with dominant cars. :) Too many coincidences. Dominant cars and stuff.

He's clearly very confident in his own ability. Not sure why that should count against him for a future drive, though


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

Yeah but we heard from the guy himself(2014, 2015, 2016!!) and many on here that he can choose where to drive because he is so much better than the two other multi WDC (HAM /VET) who can only win with dominant cars. :) Too many coincidences. Dominant cars and stuff.


Please provide quotes if you are going to make such claims.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.


Yeah but we heard from the guy himself(2014, 2015, 2016!!) and many on here that he can choose where to drive because he is so much better than the two other multi WDC (HAM /VET) who can only win with dominant cars. :) Too many coincidences. Dominant cars and stuff.

He's clearly very confident in his own ability. Not sure why that should count against him for a future drive, though


He just bluff too much.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:22 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.


Yeah but we heard from the guy himself(2014, 2015, 2016!!) and many on here that he can choose where to drive because he is so much better than the two other multi WDC (HAM /VET) who can only win with dominant cars. :) Too many coincidences. Dominant cars and stuff.


That's your interpretation of what he said rather than what he said.

I think the news that Ferrari, or rather Mattiaci, had broken a condition of Alonso's contract by signing Seb explains that episode.

He was being a **** to get paid off basically imo. Mattiaci suddenly had 3 drivers under contract after Red Bull had dropped the bombshell before Alonso had signed his release. Giving him all the power to play silly beggars with them, "Oh maybe I'll stay, maybe I'll go, I'll decide" type of thing.

Kravitz said in China 2015 that Ferrari were actually paying him still in 2015 and we know what happened to Mattiaci. I think MM simply ballsed it up by not getting Alonso's release signed and informing him they were going to sign Seb and when Alonso found out he held their feet to the fire acting as if he'd stay after all and force them to pay one of them off.

Which they did if Kravitz was right.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Alonso decided to leave Ferrari after Spa (before Ferrari signed Vettel).


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.


Yeah but we heard from the guy himself(2014, 2015, 2016!!) and many on here that he can choose where to drive because he is so much better than the two other multi WDC (HAM /VET) who can only win with dominant cars. :) Too many coincidences. Dominant cars and stuff.


That's your interpretation of what he said rather than what he said.

I think the news that Ferrari, or rather Mattiaci, had broken a condition of Alonso's contract by signing Seb explains that episode.

He was being a **** to get paid off basically imo. Mattiaci suddenly had 3 drivers under contract after Red Bull had dropped the bombshell before Alonso had signed his release. Giving him all the power to play silly beggars with them, "Oh maybe I'll stay, maybe I'll go, I'll decide" type of thing.

Kravitz said in China 2015 that Ferrari were actually paying him still in 2015 and we know what happened to Mattiaci. I think MM simply ballsed it up by not getting Alonso's release signed and informing him they were going to sign Seb and when Alonso found out he held their feet to the fire acting as if he'd stay after all and force them to pay one of them off.

Which they did if Kravitz was right.


There is another version that is totally different though(Mattiacci, Alonso, Money, Briatore, Vettel).
Marchionne(not Montezemolo/Santander) wanted a different Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:39 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso decided to leave Ferrari after Spa (before Ferrari signed Vettel).


I'm sure he did, Red Bull were convinced the McLaren deal was long since done as well but you can see the open goal Mattiaci gave him to go from securing a release via the gentleman's agreement to getting paid to go and sticking it to Marco at the same time.

Who knows though, as Pullrod says above there are other versions of events but that one has always ticked all the boxes for me and made all the comments around that time, and certain events after, make more sense.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 9:43 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso decided to leave Ferrari after Spa (before Ferrari signed Vettel).


I'm sure he did, Red Bull were convinced the McLaren deal was long since done as well but you can see the open goal Mattiaci gave him to go from securing a release via the gentleman's agreement to getting paid to go and sticking it to Marco at the same time.

Who knows though, as Pullrod says above there are other versions of events but that one has always ticked all the boxes for me and made all the comments around that time, and certain events after, make more sense.


McLaren was not Alonso's first choice. Something went wrong.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:40 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Who is more "legendary" in the sport? Stirling Moss or Mike Hawthorn? Gilles Villeneuve or Jody Scheckter?

Rockie is frantically Googling who these people are


It's not my problem you are a fan of a driver who ends up on the losing side but thinks he is a legend. So because I don't agree with you means I'm new to the sport interesting perspective.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:46 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Now I'm even more confused. Three posts ago you seemed to be denying that :?

So I guess I'll go back to my previous questions on evidence?

When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:48 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


which explains why he was driving a Mclaren in 92 and 93. :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

There is another version that is totally different though(Mattiacci, Alonso, Money, Briatore, Vettel).
Marchionne(not Montezemolo/Santander) wanted a different Ferrari.


is that the ficticious Mark Hughes version of the story?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 10:56 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso decided to leave Ferrari after Spa (before Ferrari signed Vettel).


I'm sure he did, Red Bull were convinced the McLaren deal was long since done as well but you can see the open goal Mattiaci gave him to go from securing a release via the gentleman's agreement to getting paid to go and sticking it to Marco at the same time.

Who knows though, as Pullrod says above there are other versions of events but that one has always ticked all the boxes for me and made all the comments around that time, and certain events after, make more sense.


McLaren was not Alonso's first choice. Something went wrong.


Why do you think that?

Merc and Red Bull were not available to him. Mclaren was the best available seat. He didn't want to be at Ferrari anymore.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:12 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


which explains why he was driving a Mclaren in 92 and 93. :lol:

You do know that he won the title with McLaren in 1991 so I'm not sure why he wouldn't be in the Mclaren in 1992?

In 1992 Prost wasn't driving and I'm sure he must have been in negotiations with Renault to get him into the Williams for quite a while during the season for 1993.

During the 1993 season Senna said he would drive for Williams for free and for 1994 they signed Senna, although not for free of course, despite Prost winning the title for them and despite Prost not wanting Senna as his teammate and Prost being a 4 time Champion, and Prost being recognised as one of the all time greats.

Like I said if Alonso has that level of standing and is as good as many think he is why can't he just ride into Ferrari or Mercedes when drivers are out of contract in those teams, they can't be thinking he is a cut above either Vettel or Hamilton?

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 02, 2017 11:25 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso decided to leave Ferrari after Spa (before Ferrari signed Vettel).


I'm sure he did, Red Bull were convinced the McLaren deal was long since done as well but you can see the open goal Mattiaci gave him to go from securing a release via the gentleman's agreement to getting paid to go and sticking it to Marco at the same time.

Who knows though, as Pullrod says above there are other versions of events but that one has always ticked all the boxes for me and made all the comments around that time, and certain events after, make more sense.


McLaren was not Alonso's first choice. Something went wrong.


Why do you think that?

Merc and Red Bull were not available to him. Mclaren was the best available seat. He didn't want to be at Ferrari anymore.

No he thought he had a chance at Mercedes, Hamilton and Rosberg had a bust up at Spa and Hamilton wasn't happy, so Alonso and Briatore went to Ferrari and proposed a swap deal with Hamilton, and Ferrari said alright we are fine with that if you can make it happen, but Hamilton was never going to be that daft to accept that deal.

This probably was the back drop to Alonso saying he held all the cards but in fact he held nothing, his best option was staying at Ferrari, but of course hindsight is a wonderful thing.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:24 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:32 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

He only had to wait 1 season and he forced one Alain Prost out of his seat nonetheless.

Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:45 am 
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Pullrod wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Alonso decided to leave Ferrari after Spa (before Ferrari signed Vettel).


I'm sure he did, Red Bull were convinced the McLaren deal was long since done as well but you can see the open goal Mattiaci gave him to go from securing a release via the gentleman's agreement to getting paid to go and sticking it to Marco at the same time.

Who knows though, as Pullrod says above there are other versions of events but that one has always ticked all the boxes for me and made all the comments around that time, and certain events after, make more sense.


McLaren was not Alonso's first choice. Something went wrong.


I'm sure Mercedes would be everyone's first choice then but he was happy enough to gamble with McHonda.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 12:46 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
When I say might does that sound like I'm posting it as a fact?

where did I say you did? There seems to be a lot of beating about the bush here. I'm just asking you to substantiate your theory, that's all

It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.


No he couldn't. And neither can any current driver on the grid.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 03, 2017 1:48 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

That means absolutely nothing for how good Alonso is, and everything for how weak the field was in the early 1990s. Senna was viewed as head and shoulders the best driver, but he didn't have two other drivers of younger age and greater achievement to compete against for seats.

Even so, it's clearly not true. He wanted out of McLaren before 1994, and didn't get his wish until later.

He only had to wait 1 season and he forced one Alain Prost out of his seat nonetheless.

Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?

He didn't force Prost out, Prost just retired because he didn't want to partner him again. Williams would definitely have let them both drive at the same time if Prost had been willing.

You're also ignoring the difference in age, being in the opposite direction for Alonso. Senna was the choice of the future, coming into a team with an older top driver. Alonso isn't; either Hamilton or Vettel is expected to be around much longer than him.

Being the best driver doesn't mean you can just dictate where you want to go regardless of other factors, even if Alonso is the best. It never has, and it still doesn't. Lewis couldn't just go to Ferrari if he wanted to either, and Seb couldn't just go to Mercedes. Max clearly can't just go wherever he wants, or he'd have left already. There isn't any driver who can do that, and - with the possible exception of Fangio - I don't believe there's ever been one who could. Senna replacing Prost at Williams was not as simple as you make it sound.

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