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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

That I guess would be most people on forums such as this who would gladly sign Alonso up if they had that kind of power at either Ferrari or Mercedes?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:37 am 
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Velocity wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Although from the human side I do hope Mr Brundle heals and feels better, the guy is really starting to irritate me. His cynicism and negativity towards 90% of the sport really makes me want to change the channel. I wish some members were around when Murray Walker was commenting. Yes, he made many errors and weird statements. But his love for the sport and positive passion was what made him unique. Now we have a mouthpiece more informed, but just reeking of dark and negative crap.

Racing is a celebration of life, it should not be darkened by petty bickering and needless cynicism



This is off late in my opinion. He wasn't so opinionated and neither was he so pro Hamilton. Currently I feel the entire BBC commentary team sits and discusses Hamilton's race and how can Hamilton win the championship. I understand it is UK National driving and the UK - UK connection between driver and the channel. But expect much better from BBC. It is renowned all over the world for quality journalism and news coverage.

Maybe DC and Karun Chandok are to blame. :lol:

BBC?

It's been a while since they had the F1 rights.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:40 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Your post came after the post I replied to so it wasn't you I was referencing, people can't remember all they read, I would be guilty of that as well.


???

I am not sure what the issue is, but I earlier said that I think that Alonso is the best driver on the grid, and gladly repeat it. I also stated that many people feel the same way.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:45 am 
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one of the best


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 11:46 am 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Your post came after the post I replied to so it wasn't you I was referencing, people can't remember all they read, I would be guilty of that as well.


???

I am not sure what the issue is, but I earlier said that I think that Alonso is the best driver on the grid, and gladly repeat it. I also stated that many people feel the same way.

I initially was replying to a post that said even Alonso fans are not saying on here that he is the best driver of this generation, or words to that affect.

Then I read posts that say most people in fact do think this but I guess none of these are actually Alonso fans for my post to be questioned in the way that it is?

It's strange that none Alonso fans would think this whilst his actually fans don't. :?

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:05 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

Not true.. show me their comments where they repeat comments after comments(like mail spamming) about his "best" status. Those are Alonso fans.

Brundle is under attack because he is talking about Alonso. The "best" of this generation.
Had he been talking about Hamilton(How many crap they posts/comments on him ??) or Vettel this would have been a non discussion with many asking to respect Brundle's opinion.

Alonso himself is one agressive guy who believes in intimidation(Herbert hello?) and a word with Brundle on live TV may come in the future.


The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.

I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


After he had posted that and not from an Alonso fan.

I didn't mean mikeyg, maybe the other poster is not an Alonso fan either, I'm just wondering who are the Alonso fans?


Which post?.

You can class me as a fan if you want, he's one of the drivers I like. Not sure I'd say he's clearly the best of his generation, I tend to go back and forth between him and Lewis.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:11 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Which team would have turned Senna away?


Williams in 92 and 93. If Senna could do as he chooses, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, he would have been in those cars for those years.

He couldn't.

Did Senna want to join Williams in 1992 and was he not under contract, other than that he only had to wait 1 year after he informed Williams he wanted to join them, there are 3 seats available at Ferrari and Mercedes next year and Alonso is out of contract, how does the greatest driver of his generation miss out on that?


Right, so he couldn't do as he chooses and walk into any team.

No-one can.

Obviously existing contracts have to be honoured first, after saying he would drive for Williams for free it didn't really take him that long to get the drive, contrast this with Alonso's situation.


So he had to wait for the right circumstances rather than walk into any team when he chooses to.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:54 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
The problem is that that you're arguing against imaginery people (or people from other forums, facebook comments, youtube comments etc.).

I don't see any Alonso fans in this thread making claims that Alonso is the best of his generation.

I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


After he had posted that and not from an Alonso fan.

I didn't mean mikeyg, maybe the other poster is not an Alonso fan either, I'm just wondering who are the Alonso fans?


Which post?.

You can class me as a fan if you want, he's one of the drivers I like. Not sure I'd say he's clearly the best of his generation, I tend to go back and forth between him and Lewis.

Blake already stepped forward just before your post. :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:56 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Williams in 92 and 93. If Senna could do as he chooses, which is as ridiculous as it sounds, he would have been in those cars for those years.

He couldn't.

Did Senna want to join Williams in 1992 and was he not under contract, other than that he only had to wait 1 year after he informed Williams he wanted to join them, there are 3 seats available at Ferrari and Mercedes next year and Alonso is out of contract, how does the greatest driver of his generation miss out on that?


Right, so he couldn't do as he chooses and walk into any team.

No-one can.

Obviously existing contracts have to be honoured first, after saying he would drive for Williams for free it didn't really take him that long to get the drive, contrast this with Alonso's situation.


So he had to wait for the right circumstances rather than walk into any team when he chooses to.

Yes like Alonso has had to do yet were is the Ferrari or Mercedes contract for him?

Also regarding 1993 it was said that Prost had a veto against Senna which he probably negotiated for himself the previous year in 1992 before Senna actually proclaimed interest in driving for Williams.

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Last edited by pokerman on Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 12:58 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

That I guess would be most people on forums such as this who would gladly sign Alonso up if they had that kind of power at either Ferrari or Mercedes?


Well i definitely would. Can't speak for anyone else. I don't think Alonso has ever finished a championship below where he should in the WDC his car's pace except for perhaps 2007.

On that basis he would be very likely to win this years WDC if in a Ferrari or Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

That I guess would be most people on forums such as this who would gladly sign Alonso up if they had that kind of power at either Ferrari or Mercedes?


Well i definitely would. Can't speak for anyone else. I don't think Alonso has ever finished a championship below where he should in the WDC his car's pace except for perhaps 2007.

On that basis he would be very likely to win this years WDC if in a Ferrari or Mercedes.

Which takes me back to a previous post I made that the people that count seem to think otherwise, that being Ferrari and Mercedes just to clarify which caused some confusion the first time I posted.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:13 pm 
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dompclarke wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Apart from the one year they had the same car Alonso wasn't clearly better than Ham, they were fairly equal and Ham was a rookie...


Sure. That was 1 season. Alonso is now in his 16th.

Check the first half of Alonso 2006 seasons and compare it to the first half of Hamilton's 2017. Both drivers in a similar position car wise relative to the opposition. I think it perfectly illustrates the difference between the two drivers.

Just checked again and found something interesting.... Alonso scored 84 points in the first half of the 06 season. Half way through the season being 9 races.

Hamilton has never scored more points (When applying the same points system) in the first 9 races of a season. Alonso didn't have a dominant car in 06. Hamilton had one for 3 years between 2014-16.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:17 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

That I guess would be most people on forums such as this who would gladly sign Alonso up if they had that kind of power at either Ferrari or Mercedes?


Well i definitely would. Can't speak for anyone else. I don't think Alonso has ever finished a championship below where he should in the WDC his car's pace except for perhaps 2007.

On that basis he would be very likely to win this years WDC if in a Ferrari or Mercedes.

Which takes me back to a previous post I made that the people that count seem to think otherwise, that being Ferrari and Mercedes just to clarify which caused some confusion the first time I posted.


1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12...

Now am I one of the people who count, poker?
;)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:19 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Apart from the one year they had the same car Alonso wasn't clearly better than Ham, they were fairly equal and Ham was a rookie...


Sure. That was 1 season. Alonso is now in his 16th.

Check the first half of Alonso 2006 seasons and compare it to the first half of Hamilton's 2017. Both drivers in a similar position car wise relative to the opposition. I think it perfectly illustrates the difference between the two drivers.

Just checked again and found something interesting.... Alonso scored 84 points in the first half of the 06 season. Half way through the season being 9 races.

Hamilton has never scored more points (When applying the same points system) in the first 9 races of a season. Alonso didn't have a dominant car in 06. Hamilton had one for 3 years between 2014-16.

I think sometimes you need also to factor in teammates plus in 2014-2016 Hamilton had mechanical issues and drivers crashing into him.

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2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:22 pm 
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Blake wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

That I guess would be most people on forums such as this who would gladly sign Alonso up if they had that kind of power at either Ferrari or Mercedes?


Well i definitely would. Can't speak for anyone else. I don't think Alonso has ever finished a championship below where he should in the WDC his car's pace except for perhaps 2007.

On that basis he would be very likely to win this years WDC if in a Ferrari or Mercedes.

Which takes me back to a previous post I made that the people that count seem to think otherwise, that being Ferrari and Mercedes just to clarify which caused some confusion the first time I posted.


1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12...

Now am I one of the people who count, poker?
;)

I know you are a champion of Ferrari but surely you're not Sergio Marchionne? :)

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:23 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Apart from the one year they had the same car Alonso wasn't clearly better than Ham, they were fairly equal and Ham was a rookie...


Sure. That was 1 season. Alonso is now in his 16th.

Check the first half of Alonso 2006 seasons and compare it to the first half of Hamilton's 2017. Both drivers in a similar position car wise relative to the opposition. I think it perfectly illustrates the difference between the two drivers.

Just checked again and found something interesting.... Alonso scored 84 points in the first half of the 06 season. Half way through the season being 9 races.

Hamilton has never scored more points (When applying the same points system) in the first 9 races of a season. Alonso didn't have a dominant car in 06. Hamilton had one for 3 years between 2014-16.

I think sometimes you need also to factor in teammates plus in 2014-2016 Hamilton had mechanical issues and drivers crashing into him.


Alonso had issues as well. Remember Renault putting in a huge fuel load in quali for the Malaysian Grand Prix by accident? Alonso also had to race against Schumacher in similarly performing cars.

Fissichella was hardly a bad driver either. The man has done some incredible things. He looked fantastic until Alonso happened.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:28 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
dompclarke wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I'm not an Alonso fan.

I hardly think it's controversial. Most people would rate Alonso higher than Hamilton or Vettel. Perhaps not by as much as I do but still... Alonso can just do things they other big hitters can't.

Apart from the one year they had the same car Alonso wasn't clearly better than Ham, they were fairly equal and Ham was a rookie...


Sure. That was 1 season. Alonso is now in his 16th.

Check the first half of Alonso 2006 seasons and compare it to the first half of Hamilton's 2017. Both drivers in a similar position car wise relative to the opposition. I think it perfectly illustrates the difference between the two drivers.

Just checked again and found something interesting.... Alonso scored 84 points in the first half of the 06 season. Half way through the season being 9 races.

Hamilton has never scored more points (When applying the same points system) in the first 9 races of a season. Alonso didn't have a dominant car in 06. Hamilton had one for 3 years between 2014-16.

I think sometimes you need also to factor in teammates plus in 2014-2016 Hamilton had mechanical issues and drivers crashing into him.


Alonso had issues as well. Remember Renault putting in a huge fuel load in quali for the Malaysian Grand Prix by accident? Alonso also had to race against Schumacher in similarly performing cars.

Fissichella was hardly a bad driver either. The man has done some incredible things. He looked fantastic until Alonso happened.

Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:37 pm 
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pokerman wrote:


Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.


He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I've just read a post on the same page as your post that very much says this.


After he had posted that and not from an Alonso fan.

I didn't mean mikeyg, maybe the other poster is not an Alonso fan either, I'm just wondering who are the Alonso fans?


Which post?.

You can class me as a fan if you want, he's one of the drivers I like. Not sure I'd say he's clearly the best of his generation, I tend to go back and forth between him and Lewis.

Blake already stepped forward just before your post. :)


He was responding to you bringing the best of his generation up with this post...

pokerman wrote:
Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?


And he actually said there are many who think that rather than he thought it so at the point no-one had said it but yet you still wrote the above.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 1:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Did Senna want to join Williams in 1992 and was he not under contract, other than that he only had to wait 1 year after he informed Williams he wanted to join them, there are 3 seats available at Ferrari and Mercedes next year and Alonso is out of contract, how does the greatest driver of his generation miss out on that?


Right, so he couldn't do as he chooses and walk into any team.

No-one can.

Obviously existing contracts have to be honoured first, after saying he would drive for Williams for free it didn't really take him that long to get the drive, contrast this with Alonso's situation.


So he had to wait for the right circumstances rather than walk into any team when he chooses to.

Yes like Alonso has had to do yet were is the Ferrari or Mercedes contract for him?

Also regarding 1993 it was said that Prost had a veto against Senna which he probably negotiated for himself the previous year in 1992 before Senna actually proclaimed interest in driving for Williams.


Alonso, much like Senna and any other driver can't just pick and choose when and where to go, it has to be under the right circumstances for everybody.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 2:40 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
Although from the human side I do hope Mr Brundle heals and feels better, the guy is really starting to irritate me. His cynicism and negativity towards 90% of the sport really makes me want to change the channel. I wish some members were around when Murray Walker was commenting. Yes, he made many errors and weird statements. But his love for the sport and positive passion was what made him unique. Now we have a mouthpiece more informed, but just reeking of dark and negative crap.

Racing is a celebration of life, it should not be darkened by petty bickering and needless cynicism

BIB…

I totally agree!

In Football (the real, American variety :lol:), there is one guy who is EXACTLY like this from the moment he became an analyst.
While the rest of the panel focus and speak about game-planning and offensive and defensive schemes, the moment it's his turn he'll focus on negative things about players, coaches, owners, management, organizations, and whatever else he can think of that he can harp more negativity about.

Boomer Esiason. Total drag that guy.

To think CBS elected to keep him and release Shannon Sharpe really tweaks my melons!

As for Martin Brundle and F1, I think it's time to usher in a new era and ditch the rust encrusted, bitter anchors.

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ALONSO :: BUTTON :: PEREZ :: RICCIARDO :: GROSJEAN :: KVYAT :: HULKENBERG :: MALDONADO
THE REST… THERE ARE FAR BETTER DRIVERS THAT SHOULD BE IN FORMULA 1


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 3:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It's my opinion based on what I think of his character based on how he has reacted in the past that there could be possible problems but I'm not stating it as a fact that there would be problems, maybe I'm completely wrong and Alonso is such a free spirit that he could breeze into Ferrari or Mercedes and there would be no problems whatsoever and you have to wonder why these teams are dragging their feet on him?

Lotus49 has pretty much covered it but top teams' reluctance to hire him is more down to the fact that they already have one rooster, to coin a phrase, and don't need another upsetting the balance. It was the same reasoning Horner gave when rejecting Hamilton back in 2012. It's not that Alonso himself will necessarily be a trouble maker, but that two alphas in a team will be a headache. His issue is that they got their first, that's all.

Well this being true then Alonso can't quite be the driver that some perhaps think he is, Senna for instance could have walked into any team if he had chosen to do so.

Not sure why you are making comparisons some 20 odd years apart, nor why you would feel that this somehow invalidates Alonso's claims of driving ability.

Horner rejected Hamilton back in 2012. Not because he didn't think Hamilton was a good driver, but because he felt that he would be a disruptive influence with Vettel. In the same year, LdM rejected the idea of Vettel joining Ferrari, with his famous "two roosters in a hen house" comments. Now if you interpret that as the current drivers being better, then logically that would mean that the consensus among the TPs was Alonso>Vettel>Hamilton. But there's no reason to draw that conclusion. It's equally likely that had, say, Hamilton already been at Red Bull, then Horner wouldn't have wanted to take on Vettel for exactly the same reasons. But again, that wouldn't necessarily have been a judgement on driving ability.

You're actually just making the point I was making which gives us Alonso = Vettel = Hamilton.

No, I'm not. I'm actually saying that you can't make an automatic assumption on which driver is the best based on whether or not a team is willing to throw their lineup in disarray over them. You're drawing a connection and I'm using examples to say that connection isn't there.

If a team has a top tier driver they are happy with, then they won't necessarily upset the applecart to bring on a driver who may only bring a small improvement and risk upsetting team harmony. It doesn't mean they are passing judgement on how good he may be and it also doesn't mean they think the new driver will be the one to cause the disruption. His presence may well be enough


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 4:31 pm 
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Was McLaren to be successful with Honda and be a competitive team presently, all this talk how the teams are dragging their feet on him would be not taking a place. No team is dragging their feet on him. They just can't afford having him along that other prima-donna character. It is but a bad luck, or a bad karma as some like to say.

Actually I have been impressed with him pretty much taking on his chin these 3 awful years. No matter what, he still goes out and gives his best on the track. People who may be getting on his case for occasional display of frustration (it is the sign that he still cares!) and such as this pastime with the sun-chair, are small minded people, imo.
But he knows well it was him taking up the gamble, and it did not pay out.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 04, 2017 7:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Fissichella was hardly a bad driver either. The man has done some incredible things. He looked fantastic until Alonso happened.

Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.

Fisichella also beat a driver called Button, who then went on to beat Hamilton in one year. See why these comparisons aren't exactly infallible?

I am without doubt an Alonso fan. I do believe Alonso is the best of his generation, just as I have absolutely no doubt you believe Hamilton is the best. However, I've never claimed that everyone else needs to believe it just because I do, so I don't see the problem. Between Alonso and Hamilton it's very close, and you can make a case for either; I choose to make a case for Alonso.

And yes, if I was in charge of Ferrari I would never have let him leave in the first place, and I would rehire him now. If I was in charge of Merc, however, I wouldn't disrupt the team to bring him in - Hamilton is close enough, and they're already winning the WCC without a second tier one driver.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:18 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:


Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.


He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.

Not in the first half of the 2006 season when you are comparing Alonso with Hamilton, Alonso then had very much the best car and Fisichella was his teammate plus to my recollection didn't have any mechanical problems or drivers crashing into him either.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:23 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
After he had posted that and not from an Alonso fan.

I didn't mean mikeyg, maybe the other poster is not an Alonso fan either, I'm just wondering who are the Alonso fans?


Which post?.

You can class me as a fan if you want, he's one of the drivers I like. Not sure I'd say he's clearly the best of his generation, I tend to go back and forth between him and Lewis.

Blake already stepped forward just before your post. :)


He was responding to you bringing the best of his generation up with this post...

pokerman wrote:
Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?


And he actually said there are many who think that rather than he thought it so at the point no-one had said it but yet you still wrote the above.

If you are referring to Blake he clearly thinks that.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 12:39 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Right, so he couldn't do as he chooses and walk into any team.

No-one can.

Obviously existing contracts have to be honoured first, after saying he would drive for Williams for free it didn't really take him that long to get the drive, contrast this with Alonso's situation.


So he had to wait for the right circumstances rather than walk into any team when he chooses to.

Yes like Alonso has had to do yet were is the Ferrari or Mercedes contract for him?

Also regarding 1993 it was said that Prost had a veto against Senna which he probably negotiated for himself the previous year in 1992 before Senna actually proclaimed interest in driving for Williams.


Alonso, much like Senna and any other driver can't just pick and choose when and where to go, it has to be under the right circumstances for everybody.

When drivers are clear of contracts like we see with many drivers presently regarding next season.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 1:27 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:


Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.


He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.

Not in the first half of the 2006 season when you are comparing Alonso with Hamilton, Alonso then had very much the best car and Fisichella was his teammate plus to my recollection didn't have any mechanical problems or drivers crashing into him either.


He really didn't. Ferrari were every bit as good, albeit slightly less consistent right from the first race. Schumacher made more mistakes. No way can anybody sensible argue that Hamilton had more competition in 2014/15/16 than Alonso had in 2006. Hamilton qualified 1.4 seconds ahead of the first non Merc in 2015. In 2006 Alonso didn't set a pole until round 5 and that 1.4 seconds would often cover the first 8 rows. Alonso had a car levelled by the Ferrari with the Mclaren's and Honda's both closer than Hamilton had any other competition.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:


Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.


He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.

Not in the first half of the 2006 season when you are comparing Alonso with Hamilton, Alonso then had very much the best car and Fisichella was his teammate plus to my recollection didn't have any mechanical problems or drivers crashing into him either.


He really didn't. Ferrari were every bit as good, albeit slightly less consistent right from the first race. Schumacher made more mistakes. No way can anybody sensible argue that Hamilton had more competition in 2014/15/16 than Alonso had in 2006. Hamilton qualified 1.4 seconds ahead of the first non Merc in 2015. In 2006 Alonso didn't set a pole until round 5 and that 1.4 seconds would often cover the first 8 rows. Alonso had a car levelled by the Ferrari with the Mclaren's and Honda's both closer than Hamilton had any other competition.


Hamilton's competition was not the driver who qualified 3rd or 4th with a "slower" car, but his teammate. Just like in 2007(HAM - ALO).
The "fastest" car/package is not always the "best"(It was in 2014/2015/2016 but not in 2012 for example). For example how many times did ALO's car failed during qualifyings sessions or races when he was driving for Ferrari or Renault compared to the poor McLaren guys?

Yes, Hamilton had the best car in 2014/2015/2016 but unlike Ferrari or Renault during Alonso's time, his teammate was allowed to win. And in Mercedes being so far ahead, the guy who was first at the first corner usually won the race.
That means even Vandoorne would have qualified 2nd and won races if ALO and VAN were the Mercedes drivers.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:


Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.


He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.

Not in the first half of the 2006 season when you are comparing Alonso with Hamilton, Alonso then had very much the best car and Fisichella was his teammate plus to my recollection didn't have any mechanical problems or drivers crashing into him either.


He really didn't. Ferrari were every bit as good, albeit slightly less consistent right from the first race. Schumacher made more mistakes. No way can anybody sensible argue that Hamilton had more competition in 2014/15/16 than Alonso had in 2006. Hamilton qualified 1.4 seconds ahead of the first non Merc in 2015. In 2006 Alonso didn't set a pole until round 5 and that 1.4 seconds would often cover the first 8 rows. Alonso had a car levelled by the Ferrari with the Mclaren's and Honda's both closer than Hamilton had any other competition.


Hamilton's competition was not the driver who qualified 3rd or 4th with a "slower" car, but his teammate. Just like in 2007(HAM - ALO).
The "fastest" car/package is not always the "best"(It was in 2014/2015/2016 but not in 2012 for example). For example how many times did ALO's car failed during qualifyings sessions or races when he was driving for Ferrari or Renault compared to the poor McLaren guys?

Yes, Hamilton had the best car in 2014/2015/2016 but unlike Ferrari or Renault during Alonso's time, his teammate was allowed to win. And in Mercedes being so far ahead, the guy who was first at the first corner usually won the race.
That means even Vandoorne would have qualified 2nd and won races if ALO and VAN were the Mercedes drivers.


But Alonso did have to compete with equally good Ferrari's, one of them being Schumacher. He did have o deal with a lot more competition. If Alonso had a bad quali in 2006 he'd start 8th. If Hamilton made a mistake he'd start 2nd.

Even then to match Alonso point tally across the first 9 races Hamilton could've let Rosberg beat him 3 times. How many more times should he lose to his only competition?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 2:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.

Not in the first half of the 2006 season when you are comparing Alonso with Hamilton, Alonso then had very much the best car and Fisichella was his teammate plus to my recollection didn't have any mechanical problems or drivers crashing into him either.


He really didn't. Ferrari were every bit as good, albeit slightly less consistent right from the first race. Schumacher made more mistakes. No way can anybody sensible argue that Hamilton had more competition in 2014/15/16 than Alonso had in 2006. Hamilton qualified 1.4 seconds ahead of the first non Merc in 2015. In 2006 Alonso didn't set a pole until round 5 and that 1.4 seconds would often cover the first 8 rows. Alonso had a car levelled by the Ferrari with the Mclaren's and Honda's both closer than Hamilton had any other competition.


Hamilton's competition was not the driver who qualified 3rd or 4th with a "slower" car, but his teammate. Just like in 2007(HAM - ALO).
The "fastest" car/package is not always the "best"(It was in 2014/2015/2016 but not in 2012 for example). For example how many times did ALO's car failed during qualifyings sessions or races when he was driving for Ferrari or Renault compared to the poor McLaren guys?

Yes, Hamilton had the best car in 2014/2015/2016 but unlike Ferrari or Renault during Alonso's time, his teammate was allowed to win. And in Mercedes being so far ahead, the guy who was first at the first corner usually won the race.
That means even Vandoorne would have qualified 2nd and won races if ALO and VAN were the Mercedes drivers.


But Alonso did have to compete with equally good Ferrari's, one of them being Schumacher. He did have o deal with a lot more competition. If Alonso had a bad quali in 2006 he'd start 8th. If Hamilton made a mistake he'd start 2nd.

Even then to match Alonso point tally across the first 9 races Hamilton could've let Rosberg beat him 3 times. How many more times should he lose to his only competition?


And if Hamilton had a DNF, 4 wins would be needed to retake the lead. Many overlook this part of having a really dominant car. What matters is the WDC at the end, not how many points a driver has after 3 or 5 races.

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were using different tyres, with one being vastly superior in the wet.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:03 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

And if Hamilton had a DNF, 4 wins would be needed to retake the lead. Many overlook this part of having a really dominant car. What matters is the WDC at the end, not how many points a driver has after 3 or 5 races.

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were using different tyres, with one being vastly superior in the wet.


But with no wet races in the fist 9 races in 2006 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

To remind you of the point I was making - Hamilton is in a similar situation this season to Alonso was in 06 and his results have been far worse up until the half way point.

I then went on to add that in fact even in Hamilton's years with an utterly dominant car he hasn't been able to match Alonso first half of 2006 where he had to compete on an equal or near equal footing with Schumacher.

This for me perfectly illustrates the gap between them as drivers.

I am quite surprised that the defence for this seems to be that Hamilton some how faced greater competition?


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:13 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

And if Hamilton had a DNF, 4 wins would be needed to retake the lead. Many overlook this part of having a really dominant car. What matters is the WDC at the end, not how many points a driver has after 3 or 5 races.

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were using different tyres, with one being vastly superior in the wet.


But with no wet races in the fist 9 races in 2006 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

To remind you of the point I was making - Hamilton is in a similar situation this season to Alonso was in 06 and his results have been far worse up until the half way point.

I then went on to add that in fact even in Hamilton's years with an utterly dominant car he hasn't been able to match Alonso first half of 2006 where he had to compete on an equal or near equal footing with Schumacher.

This for me perfectly illustrates the gap between them as drivers.

I am quite surprised that the defence for this seems to be that Hamilton some how faced greater competition?


It is not Hamilton fault if his engine gives away in the first race of a season or if it catches fire just before Q3, or if he can not consistently put cars between him and his competitors because the opposition(bar his teammate) is weak.

In 2006 Fisichella was not a WDC competitor(unlike Bottas/Rosberg or whoever sits in the the 2nd Mercedes) so Alonso had this advantage. There have been instances were Fisichella only goal was to block or impede Schumacher. And I am not even touching reliability.
Hamilton may have had better cars, but also tougher competition(in the team) and definitely worse reliability than Alonso(up until when he went back to McLaren).


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:21 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

And if Hamilton had a DNF, 4 wins would be needed to retake the lead. Many overlook this part of having a really dominant car. What matters is the WDC at the end, not how many points a driver has after 3 or 5 races.

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were using different tyres, with one being vastly superior in the wet.


But with no wet races in the fist 9 races in 2006 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

To remind you of the point I was making - Hamilton is in a similar situation this season to Alonso was in 06 and his results have been far worse up until the half way point.

I then went on to add that in fact even in Hamilton's years with an utterly dominant car he hasn't been able to match Alonso first half of 2006 where he had to compete on an equal or near equal footing with Schumacher.

This for me perfectly illustrates the gap between them as drivers.

I am quite surprised that the defence for this seems to be that Hamilton some how faced greater competition?


It is not Hamilton fault if his engine gives away in the first race of a season or if it catches fire just before Q3, or if he can not consistently put cars between him and his competitors because the opposition(bar his teammate) is weak.

In 2006 Fisichella was not a WDC competitor(unlike Bottas/Rosberg or whoever sits in the the 2nd Mercedes) so Alonso had this advantage. There have been instances were Fisichella only goal was to block or impede Schumacher. And I am not even touching reliability.
Hamilton may have had better cars, but also tougher competition(in the team) and definitely WORSE reliability than Alonso(up until he went back to McLaren).


So Rsoberg in an equal car is more competition than Schumacher, Fissichella and Massa in equal, or very near equal cars? Raikonen, Montoya, Button and Barrichello all closer than Hamilton's 2nd closest competitor?

Sorry, not buying that at all.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:29 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

And if Hamilton had a DNF, 4 wins would be needed to retake the lead. Many overlook this part of having a really dominant car. What matters is the WDC at the end, not how many points a driver has after 3 or 5 races.

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were using different tyres, with one being vastly superior in the wet.


But with no wet races in the fist 9 races in 2006 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

To remind you of the point I was making - Hamilton is in a similar situation this season to Alonso was in 06 and his results have been far worse up until the half way point.

I then went on to add that in fact even in Hamilton's years with an utterly dominant car he hasn't been able to match Alonso first half of 2006 where he had to compete on an equal or near equal footing with Schumacher.

This for me perfectly illustrates the gap between them as drivers.

I am quite surprised that the defence for this seems to be that Hamilton some how faced greater competition?


It is not Hamilton fault if his engine gives away in the first race of a season or if it catches fire just before Q3, or if he can not consistently put cars between him and his competitors because the opposition(bar his teammate) is weak.

In 2006 Fisichella was not a WDC competitor(unlike Bottas/Rosberg or whoever sits in the the 2nd Mercedes) so Alonso had this advantage. There have been instances were Fisichella only goal was to block or impede Schumacher. And I am not even touching reliability.
Hamilton may have had better cars, but also tougher competition(in the team) and definitely WORSE reliability than Alonso(up until he went back to McLaren).


So Rsoberg in an equal car is more competition than Schumacher, Fissichella and Massa in equal, or very near equal cars? Raikonen, Montoya, Button and Barrichello all closer than Hamilton's 2nd closest competitor?

Sorry, not buying that at all.


You are doing selective stats. Was China included in the first part of the season in 2006?
What about the second part of the season?
If Alonso was that good at maximizing results he would not have had "only" 2 WDC to his name because you may not like it but he has had many opportunities to win more and he failed.

Fisichella was a non force in 2006.
Schumacher was driving a Ferrari(a completely different car).
The Renault was far more reliable than any Mercedes or McLaren.

This year Hamilton has to fight not only Bottas(not a new thing in his career) but also Vettel/Raikkonen and the RB guys.


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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:42 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Pullrod wrote:

And if Hamilton had a DNF, 4 wins would be needed to retake the lead. Many overlook this part of having a really dominant car. What matters is the WDC at the end, not how many points a driver has after 3 or 5 races.

In 2006 Ferrari and Renault were using different tyres, with one being vastly superior in the wet.


But with no wet races in the fist 9 races in 2006 that is completely irrelevant to the discussion.

To remind you of the point I was making - Hamilton is in a similar situation this season to Alonso was in 06 and his results have been far worse up until the half way point.

I then went on to add that in fact even in Hamilton's years with an utterly dominant car he hasn't been able to match Alonso first half of 2006 where he had to compete on an equal or near equal footing with Schumacher.

This for me perfectly illustrates the gap between them as drivers.

I am quite surprised that the defence for this seems to be that Hamilton some how faced greater competition?


It is not Hamilton fault if his engine gives away in the first race of a season or if it catches fire just before Q3, or if he can not consistently put cars between him and his competitors because the opposition(bar his teammate) is weak.

In 2006 Fisichella was not a WDC competitor(unlike Bottas/Rosberg or whoever sits in the the 2nd Mercedes) so Alonso had this advantage. There have been instances were Fisichella only goal was to block or impede Schumacher. And I am not even touching reliability.
Hamilton may have had better cars, but also tougher competition(in the team) and definitely WORSE reliability than Alonso(up until he went back to McLaren).


So Rsoberg in an equal car is more competition than Schumacher, Fissichella and Massa in equal, or very near equal cars? Raikonen, Montoya, Button and Barrichello all closer than Hamilton's 2nd closest competitor?

Sorry, not buying that at all.


You are doing selective stats. Was China included in the first part of the season in 2006?


Why would I? It was at the end of the season
What about the second part of the season? If Alonso was that good at maximising results he would not have had "only" 2 WDC to his name because you may not like it but he has had many opportunities to win more and he failed.

Sure he wasn't as good in the second half. That doesn't change the fact that in the first half he had a better run than Hamilton has ever had statistically despite Hamilton having driven better cars with less competition

Fisichella was a non force in 2006.
Strange how often that happens against Alonso...

Schumacher was driving a Ferrari(a completely different car).
But about equal in terms of performance

The Renault was far more reliable than any Mercedes or McLaren.

True, in 2014 had he not retired from two of the first 9 races he might have done it. He would still have needed to win both those races though. Also, no retirements this season and he wasn't even close to the points scored by Alonso in the first 9 races despite facing similar competition. Obviously has suffered misfortune but as I said, not even close.


This year Hamilton has to fight not only Bottas(not a new thing in his career) but also Vettel/Raikkonen and the RB guys.

Yes, this year like Alonso in 2006 he has to fight 3 other guys on equal terms. Kimi = Massa, Schumacher > Vettel and Bottas > Fissichella so all about equal really. The Red Bulls this year are probably slightly further adrift that the Mclaren's were in 2006 so Hamilton does probably have it a touch easier.



Last edited by mikeyg123 on Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Obviously existing contracts have to be honoured first, after saying he would drive for Williams for free it didn't really take him that long to get the drive, contrast this with Alonso's situation.


So he had to wait for the right circumstances rather than walk into any team when he chooses to.

Yes like Alonso has had to do yet were is the Ferrari or Mercedes contract for him?

Also regarding 1993 it was said that Prost had a veto against Senna which he probably negotiated for himself the previous year in 1992 before Senna actually proclaimed interest in driving for Williams.


Alonso, much like Senna and any other driver can't just pick and choose when and where to go, it has to be under the right circumstances for everybody.

When drivers are clear of contracts like we see with many drivers presently regarding next season.


Yes, circumstances dictate rather than the drivers,whatever their reputation.

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PostPosted: Sat Aug 05, 2017 3:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I didn't mean mikeyg, maybe the other poster is not an Alonso fan either, I'm just wondering who are the Alonso fans?


Which post?.

You can class me as a fan if you want, he's one of the drivers I like. Not sure I'd say he's clearly the best of his generation, I tend to go back and forth between him and Lewis.

Blake already stepped forward just before your post. :)


He was responding to you bringing the best of his generation up with this post...

pokerman wrote:
Generally speaking I have to read posts of how Alonso is the best of his generation yet that doesn't seem to translate to how the people that count seem to view him?


And he actually said there are many who think that rather than he thought it so at the point no-one had said it but yet you still wrote the above.

If you are referring to Blake he clearly thinks that.


He may well do but at the point you felt the need to correct davidheath no-one, including Blake, had actually said it. And the first person to even mention best of his generation was you, in reference to posts declaring him such, posts only you can see apparently, which was davidheaths point in the first place.

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PostPosted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 2:04 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:

This year Hamilton has to fight not only Bottas(not a new thing in his career) but also Vettel/Raikkonen and the RB guys.


And he's not leading the championship... ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:31 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:


Fisichella got beat by a rookie called Kovalainen who then went on to get destroyed by Hamilton.


He also beat and usually by a big margin - Ralf Schumacher, Wurz, Button, Sato, Firman and Massa.

But how good or bad Fissichella was is hardly the salient point. Alonso had a lot more competition in 06 than Hamilton had between 2014 and 2016.

Not in the first half of the 2006 season when you are comparing Alonso with Hamilton, Alonso then had very much the best car and Fisichella was his teammate plus to my recollection didn't have any mechanical problems or drivers crashing into him either.


He really didn't. Ferrari were every bit as good, albeit slightly less consistent right from the first race. Schumacher made more mistakes. No way can anybody sensible argue that Hamilton had more competition in 2014/15/16 than Alonso had in 2006. Hamilton qualified 1.4 seconds ahead of the first non Merc in 2015. In 2006 Alonso didn't set a pole until round 5 and that 1.4 seconds would often cover the first 8 rows. Alonso had a car levelled by the Ferrari with the Mclaren's and Honda's both closer than Hamilton had any other competition.

Well I was thinking more in terms of Hamilton having more competition from Rosberg, but looking back it's true that Alonso had more competition and varied at that, both in 2005 and 2006 Alonso was quite superb but also it is true that in 2006 he had far better reliability than Hamilton, that's something Hamilton himself couldn't control.

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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