planetf1.com

It is currently Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:21 am

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic

Should Hungary be Removed from the F1 Season?
Yes- No passing is possible, get rid of it. 34%  34%  [ 18 ]
No- Keep the track on the calendar. 66%  66%  [ 35 ]
Total votes : 53
Author Message
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:10 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6728
Location: Belgium
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Why you think the Williams was substandard to the McLaren, I simply can't understand.


Easy. 30+ years of watching racing informs me that whenever a car is able to catch up to the one in front and hang with them virtually nose to tail, lap after lap, very often (99% of the time) is the quicker car. We saw that in Hungary this weekend. Lewis caught up to Bottas and stuck behind him lap after lap. Due to the impossibility of passing at Hungary, Lewis did not even attempt a pass. Team orders got him around and once clear of Bottas, he motored away from him easily. I would bet my paycheck that had Ferrari let Kimi past Vettel (who also was tailing the car in front lap after lap after lap), Kimi would have powered away with total ease. He had the quicker car last Sunday but the track does not allow for cars to pass unless there is a massive difference in power.

Another point- Lewis had to slow down by NINE SECONDS to let Bottas retake 3 place. Nine seconds!

If Ayrton Senna is 0.3 seconds behind any car, lap after lap after lap, and cannot pass, or doesnt even attempt a pass, then you can be certain that you are not watching a race. You are watching a parade.
I too have 30+ years of watching F1 on the counter, and many more of being a fan. What you see as the problem, is simply pointing out the difference between a car covering a particular distance in the shortest amount of time, and the same thing with all cars starting at the same time, and circulating on a closed track.

Of course I understand that Hamilton was faster than Bottas last Sunday, but qualifying is part of the race weekend. In 1990, Senna had had just as much time as his team-mate, or the Williams drivers, to set a good time. Unfortunately for him, Berger beat his best Saturday time on Friday...

On Sunday morning, as you will remember being an old hand, he could have chosen a set-up to overcome his poor starting position. Whether he did might be recorded in his post-race interviews, or perhaps somewhere in the McLaren archives. But one of the race decisions made by Boutsen/Williams, appears to have been not to come in for tyres and risk the win in the final showdown laps. Top class defensive driving was called for, and delivered.*

I'm not sure whether re-instating the Sunday morning warm-up would substantially alter the results for the front of the grid, but I think it might be beneficial for the others.

One thing though; I am not convinced that it was because of the impossibility of passing that no attempt was made by Räikkönen or Hamilton to overtake. Of course there is the difficulty of keeping it clean between team-mates (something Verstappen really has to get into his noggin), but an additional factor is team orders. I doubt there are many fans who believe Räikkönen was allowed to try, while equally there are probably few who would have believed Mercedes would not arrange a switch. Some call F1 a team sport because of it. (I don't, but that's another matter.)

Herb Tarlik wrote:
Fiki wrote:
I don't understand why you would consider the fastest car on the track getting pole position artificial. It may not have been Senna's lucky weekend, with Gerhard Berger outqualifying him, but the fact is that Boutsen outqualified Senna by nearly a quarter of a second. Best car/driver combination on pole, surely that's not artificial?

I dont dispute that Boutsen drove the fastest on Saturday. That was qualifying and was a short snapshot in time, to set the starting grid.
As it always is, despite the modern parc fermé rules.
I think there's one more thing to be considered, besides race strategy, and that is that Boutsen did not have Senna's liberty of going flat out all of the time. He had his career to think about, and you may remember that he brought his trophy to an empty pit garage. Nobody celebrated with him, because the team didn't want to retain him for another year, despite having massively profited from his technical input for the 1991 car - as acknowledged by Patrese.

Did you know, Herb, that Senna at one point proposed that he and Boutsen could together go to Ferrari and end the Scuderia's drought? Regardless of how few extra wins Thierry might have gotten from that, I think I would have liked it. Senna valued Boutsen a lot more than many think.

* Edit: remember Imola 2005 and 2006? Defensive driving between titans. None of the DRS nonsense yet, and no pass, because of solid defensive driving with a top car. Even a slightly slower one.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1382
Fiki wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Why you think the Williams was substandard to the McLaren, I simply can't understand.


Easy. 30+ years of watching racing informs me that whenever a car is able to catch up to the one in front and hang with them virtually nose to tail, lap after lap, very often (99% of the time) is the quicker car. We saw that in Hungary this weekend. Lewis caught up to Bottas and stuck behind him lap after lap. Due to the impossibility of passing at Hungary, Lewis did not even attempt a pass. Team orders got him around and once clear of Bottas, he motored away from him easily. I would bet my paycheck that had Ferrari let Kimi past Vettel (who also was tailing the car in front lap after lap after lap), Kimi would have powered away with total ease. He had the quicker car last Sunday but the track does not allow for cars to pass unless there is a massive difference in power.

Another point- Lewis had to slow down by NINE SECONDS to let Bottas retake 3 place. Nine seconds!

If Ayrton Senna is 0.3 seconds behind any car, lap after lap after lap, and cannot pass, or doesnt even attempt a pass, then you can be certain that you are not watching a race. You are watching a parade.
I too have 30+ years of watching F1 on the counter, and many more of being a fan. What you see as the problem, is simply pointing out the difference between a car covering a particular distance in the shortest amount of time, and the same thing with all cars starting at the same time, and circulating on a closed track.



No. A statement like that above treats all tracks as equal. That is demonstrably not the case. Some tracks have the features needed to allow for contested corners and straights and some do not. Hungary does not, hence why I view it as a problem.

I've given the reasons why I believe this and have not seen any evidence that I find convincing enough to disprove it.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 1:57 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 9531
Location: Ireland
Fiki wrote:
* Edit: remember Imola 2005 and 2006? Defensive driving between titans. None of the DRS nonsense yet, and no pass, because of solid defensive driving with a top car. Even a slightly slower one.

Two of the best race finishes in all of the '00s :thumbup:

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2762
If hamilton and alonso did believe it is impossible to pass then why did hamilton ask to get a go at the ferraris? And what in the world was alonso doing when he passed Sainz?

I enjoy races at the hungaro ring, yes overtaking is difficult but when it happens its spectacular and memorable.
Who can forget Hamilton on Vergne in 2014 or Ricciardo on Hamilton that same year?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 4:20 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1382
kleefton wrote:
If hamilton and alonso did believe it is impossible to pass then why did hamilton ask to get a go at the ferraris?


I'm surprised this needs to be said, but I'll do so anyway. Hamilton and Bottas were driving the same machinery. The Ferraris are not Mercedes. The hope is that this extra amount of difference between the Mercedes and Ferrari, albeit tiny, might allow for an attempt at a pass. It was a vain hope for sure, but that is all the divers have left on a track like Hungary. That's what makes it a miserable track.


kleefton wrote:
And what in the world was alonso doing when he passed Sainz?


Really? One of the best drivers in the world passing someone who has never even sniffed at a victory. That's impressive?

Alonso demonstrated quite clearly that the McLaren chassis is extraordinarily strong. He set the fastest lap despite having the weakest engine.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:07 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2762
Herb Tarlik wrote:
kleefton wrote:
If hamilton and alonso did believe it is impossible to pass then why did hamilton ask to get a go at the ferraris?


I'm surprised this needs to be said, but I'll do so anyway. Hamilton and Bottas were driving the same machinery. The Ferraris are not Mercedes. The hope is that this extra amount of difference between the Mercedes and Ferrari, albeit tiny, might allow for an attempt at a pass. It was a vain hope for sure, but that is all the divers have left on a track like Hungary. That's what makes it a miserable track.


kleefton wrote:
And what in the world was alonso doing when he passed Sainz?


Really? One of the best drivers in the world passing someone who has never even sniffed at a victory. That's impressive?

Alonso demonstrated quite clearly that the McLaren chassis is extraordinarily strong. He set the fastest lap despite having the weakest engine.


Yeah...i think you should really just drop it because your argument is just weak. You said that both guys said it was impossible to pass, but their actions on track showed that they did not indeed believe that it was impossible. I think Hamilton believed he could get the Ferraris, I don't think he would have asked to be swapped if he didn't really think he could do it.

I'm pretty sure sainz has not even sniffed at a victory because he just never has had the car to do so. Sainz is definitely no slouch and the Toro Rosso is often faster than the Mclaren, has a better power unit to boot. You dare say that it wasn't impressive. Yeah right...


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:19 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 1382
kleefton wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
kleefton wrote:
If hamilton and alonso did believe it is impossible to pass then why did hamilton ask to get a go at the ferraris?


I'm surprised this needs to be said, but I'll do so anyway. Hamilton and Bottas were driving the same machinery. The Ferraris are not Mercedes. The hope is that this extra amount of difference between the Mercedes and Ferrari, albeit tiny, might allow for an attempt at a pass. It was a vain hope for sure, but that is all the divers have left on a track like Hungary. That's what makes it a miserable track.


kleefton wrote:
And what in the world was alonso doing when he passed Sainz?


Really? One of the best drivers in the world passing someone who has never even sniffed at a victory. That's impressive?

Alonso demonstrated quite clearly that the McLaren chassis is extraordinarily strong. He set the fastest lap despite having the weakest engine.


Yeah...i think you should really just drop it because your argument is just weak. You said that both guys said it was impossible to pass, but their actions on track showed that they did not indeed believe that it was impossible. I think Hamilton believed he could get the Ferraris, I don't think he would have asked to be swapped if he didn't really think he could do it.

I'm pretty sure sainz has not even sniffed at a victory because he just never has had the car to do so. Sainz is definitely no slouch and the Toro Rosso is often faster than the Mclaren, has a better power unit to boot. You dare say that it wasn't impressive. Yeah right...


My argument is not weak at all. I still have not seen one point made against that which is compelling.

We have no idea what was in Hamilton's head when he requested to be let by. I think the fact that Hamilton did not even attempt a pass of Kimi shows clearly, beyond any doubt, what a hopeless track Hungary is. At one point he was 0.8 seconds behind AND had DRS but still did not so much as fake an attempt to pass.

On the contrary, I think more than ever my argument is solid and supports dropping Hungary.

Others see it differently and that's fine. Let's remember, this is a discussion to pass the time, not implement actual policy.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Aug 01, 2017 6:59 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 21, 2003 11:06 am
Posts: 6728
Location: Belgium
mcdo wrote:
Fiki wrote:
* Edit: remember Imola 2005 and 2006? Defensive driving between titans. None of the DRS nonsense yet, and no pass, because of solid defensive driving with a top car. Even a slightly slower one.

Two of the best race finishes in all of the '00s :thumbup:
It was certainly instructive. And quite possibly one of the best arguments against that DRS abomination.
At the time, I couldn't help but be reminded of one of my favourite races: Zandvoort 1985.

_________________
Use every man after his desert, and who should scape whipping? Use them after your own honour and dignity.

Maria de Villota - Jules Bianchi


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google Adsense [Bot], mds, owenmahamilton and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group