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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:49 am 
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Clarky wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.

Not really when your 7 seconds up the road and a fast Red Bull coming.


I suspect that Hamilton was praying that Verstappen would pass Bottas.

Problem solved then


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 11:51 am 
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ALESI wrote:
Can you imagine the commentators if Lewis had won that race with a bent steering, in exactly the fashion Vettel did. The BS would be flowing like a river.


Abit random on a thread about team orders.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:00 pm 
lucifers wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.

You have to look at what happened in the races. In Baku, for example, the headrest thing prevented Lewis from winning easily. Other than Russia, Valteri has been the slower driver in each race.

The more important point is that, unlike Ferrari, Mercedes' drivers are taking a lot of points from each other and it could easily cost them the championship.


Bottas is also taking points off vettel and not just Hamilton.


Indeed a point completely lost on most.

Hamilton would be further behind Vettel in the WDC if he had a team mate he had beat every single race. Bottas took 14 points off of Vettel in Russia and Austria alone. Those two Bottas wins are crucial for Hamiltons current WDC challenge, especially Austria where he had no hope to win due to the gearbox change.

Hungary is the only times Bottas has taken points directly from Hamilton and not Vettel too. Hamilton would be +3 in Hungary. So he would have 3 more points compared to the 14 more Vettel would have if Bottas wasn't as quick.

Hamilton, however has taken a lot of points off of Bottas because he has finished directly behind him on numerous occasions. The flip side is, when the Mercedes is strong - they will 1-2 and Vettel will be third. When Ferrari is strong its not certain Kimi will be there in 2nd place although he has been in the two dominant Ferrari tracks he hasn't been when Ferrari didn't have a big advantage.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:09 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.

1) It turned out to be a big gap to drop back
2) The Verstappen risk

Many a driver would have said "forget it, I can't drop back to that"


As I remember, it was supposed to be a 5-laps attempt and then giving back the place if not successful. The switch was done on the lap 46, and Hamilton kept pushing to the very last lap 70. That's 26 laps of Hamilton apparently not having any intention to slow down and let Bottas ahead but rather building up the gap to him!

On the end, he yielded. He had to choose between being a jerk and not being a jerk. And I am just reading the news report with the headline "Lewis Hamilton risks the title by giving Hungarian Grand Prix podium spot to team-mate". And in the article it states, "Lewis Hamilton let his heart rule his head in a remarkable moment of sportsmanship".
Fake news. Hamilton didn't give anything to his teammate. And a wrong assessment too; it was not his heart but his calculative brain that kicked in and concluded that it was better for him not to be a jerk for 2 points a half of the season down.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.

1) It turned out to be a big gap to drop back
2) The Verstappen risk

Many a driver would have said "forget it, I can't drop back to that"


As I remember, it was supposed to be a 5-laps attempt and then giving back the place if not successful. The switch was done on the lap 46, and Hamilton kept pushing to the very last lap 70. That's 26 laps of Hamilton apparently not having any intention to slow down and let Bottas ahead but rather building up the gap to him!

On the end, he yielded. He had to choose between being a jerk and not being a jerk. And I am just reading the news report with the headline "Lewis Hamilton risks the title by giving Hungarian Grand Prix podium spot to team-mate". And in the article it states, "Lewis Hamilton let his heart rule his head in a remarkable moment of sportsmanship".
Fake news. Hamilton didn't give anything to his teammate. And a wrong assessment too; it was not his heart but his calculative brain that kicked in and concluded that it was better for him not to be a jerk for 2 points a half of the season down.


Do you just find any reason to have a go at Hamilton? The team told Hamilton to push right to the end.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:16 pm 
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Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.

1) It turned out to be a big gap to drop back
2) The Verstappen risk

Many a driver would have said "forget it, I can't drop back to that"


As I remember, it was supposed to be a 5-laps attempt and then giving back the place if not successful. The switch was done on the lap 46, and Hamilton kept pushing to the very last lap 70. That's 26 laps of Hamilton apparently not having any intention to slow down and let Bottas ahead but rather building up the gap to him!

On the end, he yielded. He had to choose between being a jerk and not being a jerk. And I am just reading the news report with the headline "Lewis Hamilton risks the title by giving Hungarian Grand Prix podium spot to team-mate". And in the article it states, "Lewis Hamilton let his heart rule his head in a remarkable moment of sportsmanship".
Fake news. Hamilton didn't give anything to his teammate. And a wrong assessment too; it was not his heart but his calculative brain that kicked in and concluded that it was better for him not to be a jerk for 2 points a half of the season down.

If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:22 pm 
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He was even ready to surrender the place back after misunderstanding his engineer telling him he had been given another five laps in which to try it. “I don’t think there’s any more I can do,” he responded. “Do you want me to give the place back to Valtteri now?” Negative, he was told. Not yet.

With Verstappen getting ever-closer, there was a real danger that he wasn’t going to be in a position to be handed the place back as it opened up the possibility of Max passing them both. “Push up to Lewis,” Valtteri was instructed. But it was easier said than done.

With Verstappen right on their tail. Hamilton was instructed by the team to only do it if he thought it could be accomplished without risk. He did it at the very last corner. Verstappen followed Hamilton by 0.5sec over the line.

From Mark Hughes Hungary race report http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repor ... grand-prix

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:23 pm 
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inky38 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Why the praise for Hamilton he was let through by Bottas, the only reasonable decision was to give the place back.

Not really when your 7 seconds up the road and a fast Red Bull coming.


I suspect that Hamilton was praying that Verstappen would pass Bottas.

Problem solved then

You don't remember when Merc said to Hamilton you have another 5 laps and Hamilton responded should I give the place back now only to be told negative.

Throws that out.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:39 pm 
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More and more you can see why Bottas looked so glum on the podium...

I think Lewis is confident he can take the fight to Ferrari in the second half of the season, this way he has kept his team mate on side and not made himself look a hypocrite after the stuff he said about Ferrari. Basically, if he wins the title he can say he did it the 'right' way, ie not like Vettel/Ferrari. And if he loses he can say he'd rather lose with honour than win the way Vettel did. So a win/win for LH really.

Plus as someone else pointed out, thanks to the ridiculous British media this is made out to be Hamilton 'gifting' a podium to his team mate, rather than what it actually was.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:46 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
As I remember, it was supposed to be a 5-laps attempt and then giving back the place if not successful. The switch was done on the lap 46, and Hamilton kept pushing to the very last lap 70. That's 26 laps of Hamilton apparently not having any intention to slow down and let Bottas ahead but rather building up the gap to him!

On the end, he yielded. He had to choose between being a jerk and not being a jerk. And I am just reading the news report with the headline "Lewis Hamilton risks the title by giving Hungarian Grand Prix podium spot to team-mate". And in the article it states, "Lewis Hamilton let his heart rule his head in a remarkable moment of sportsmanship".
Fake news. Hamilton didn't give anything to his teammate. And a wrong assessment too; it was not his heart but his calculative brain that kicked in and concluded that it was better for him not to be a jerk for 2 points a half of the season down.

If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not


That is why I believe that Bottas lost the spark once he was ordered to move aside, hence dropped so much suddenly.
I have no issue with admitting that it was a decent act. I gave that credit to him right away "on line" when it happened. But I am also pointing out now that the bar is being set very low when the bloke who keeps his part of a bargain starts getting praised as someone sacrificing something for behalf of his teammate, out of his good hearth's selflessness. Which would be a fallacy rather. Whether you like to hear it or not.

I also believe that shall it turn out that it was these 2 points to be the ones to lose the title, Hamilton would be regretting and cursing himself for being a "decent bloke".


Last edited by Prema on Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:49 pm 
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It's rather odd that Bottas dropped back so much, especially if he was expecting the order to be reversed again, or maybe after the five laps came and went he got the hump - fair enough)... but if the Ferrari's really were that slow then why wasn't everybody driving around in a train? Doesn't make sense.

Also, if Max hadn't had his penalty he could've been on the podium.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:50 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not


I am pretty sure that Bottas played a passive aggressive role here. He exaggerated his move to let Lewis through let anyone mistake that it was a genuine overtake. Further, he turned down his engine knowing that there was nothing to fight for and let Lewis do the heavy lifting of letting him by again. It was quite savvy actually.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:55 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not


I am pretty sure that Bottas played a passive aggressive role here. He exaggerated his move to let Lewis through let anyone mistake that it was a genuine overtake. Further, he turned down his engine knowing that there was nothing to fight for and let Lewis do the heavy lifting of letting him by again. It was quite savvy actually.


So he turned his engine down when the team asked him to keep up? He was lucky he got the place back as he fell so far back and had Verstappen right behind him.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:56 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
It's rather odd that Bottas dropped back so much, especially if he was expecting the order to be reversed again, or maybe after the five laps came and went he got the hump - fair enough)... but if the Ferrari's really were that slow then why wasn't everybody driving around in a train? Doesn't make sense.

Also, if Max hadn't had his penalty he could've been on the podium.


Max would be ahead of both Mercedeses if not for the penalty. And so would be Ricciardo, if not for it. But then, Ferraris would be more threatened by these two guys too.
As far as Bottas, I believe he simply did not expect he would get back the place, his body language and his reply on the podium interview indicated to me that he was rather surprised.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:00 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Plus as someone else pointed out, thanks to the ridiculous British media this is made out to be Hamilton 'gifting' a podium to his team mate, rather than what it actually was.

There is an unsurprising article on Sky calling it Hamilton's gift to Bottas. The majority of the people in the comments appear to be pointing out it wasn't a gift as without any team interference Bottas would have finished 3rd anyway.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:03 pm 
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Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
As I remember, it was supposed to be a 5-laps attempt and then giving back the place if not successful. The switch was done on the lap 46, and Hamilton kept pushing to the very last lap 70. That's 26 laps of Hamilton apparently not having any intention to slow down and let Bottas ahead but rather building up the gap to him!

On the end, he yielded. He had to choose between being a jerk and not being a jerk. And I am just reading the news report with the headline "Lewis Hamilton risks the title by giving Hungarian Grand Prix podium spot to team-mate". And in the article it states, "Lewis Hamilton let his heart rule his head in a remarkable moment of sportsmanship".
Fake news. Hamilton didn't give anything to his teammate. And a wrong assessment too; it was not his heart but his calculative brain that kicked in and concluded that it was better for him not to be a jerk for 2 points a half of the season down.

If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not


That is why I believe that Bottas lost the spark once he was ordered to move aside, hence dropped so much suddenly.
I have no issue with admitting that it was a decent act. I gave that credit to him right away "on line" when it happened. But I am also pointing out now that the bar is being set very low when the bloke who keeps his part of a bargain starts getting praised as someone sacrificing something for behalf of his teammate, out of his good hearth's selflessness. Which would be a fallacy rather. Whether you like to hear it or not.

I also believe that shall it turn out that it was these 2 points to be the ones to lose the title, Hamilton would be regretting and cursing himself for being a "decent bloke".

Why? What's wrong with praising good sportsmanship and selflessness? In an era when he himself has been selfish in the past, as has Vettel, as has Alonso, as has Verstappen, etc. etc. His hero and idol might have been the most selfish of them all. Why should a rare good turn to a fellow competitor not get praised? Dan Ricciardo was praised for being equally as fair with Kvyat in Monaco 2015

Hamilton might regret it yeah. It would only be natural to feel that way. His only goal is to be world champion, not to be F1's nicest guy

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:04 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mcdo wrote:
If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not


I am pretty sure that Bottas played a passive aggressive role here. He exaggerated his move to let Lewis through let anyone mistake that it was a genuine overtake. Further, he turned down his engine knowing that there was nothing to fight for and let Lewis do the heavy lifting of letting him by again. It was quite savvy actually.

I doubt that simply because - What the hell would he invite Verstappen on his tail for? Of all people. Makes no sense

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:08 pm 
Prema wrote:
That is why I believe that Bottas lost the spark once he was ordered to move aside, hence dropped so much suddenly.


Bottas pace was faster once he let Hamilton by, he has in the low 22's before he let Hamilton by. Then he immediately went into the high and mid 21's as soon as Hamilton was let by.


Last edited by lamo on Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:08 pm 
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optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


When you cut to the chase, Hamilton is an employee of Mercedes. He also owes two of his WDC's to that team. He does not set any precedents, the team (usually in the form of Toto Wolff) direct policy. If he decides to ignore team orders, he is also in violation of his contract and subject to penalties the team may decide to impose. He also creates a reputation of a selfish lone wolf rogue, where one no team can trust him. Obviously such behavior removes him from consideration to be a Ferrari driver.

That being said, there were many (including myself) who did not expect him to return the position. Even some TV pundits were attempting to lay out a rationalization for him not honoring his promise. But he did do the honorable thing, he did live up to his promise, and he get to keep his job and secure a more favorable future if he desired to go to another team.

I criticize when I believe it is justified, but I also give praise when it is earned. And I stand up and applaud Mr Hamilton's actions, he did the right thing, he played fair and conducted himself with grace and dignity. Well done.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:11 pm 
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


Obviously such behavior removes him from consideration to be a Ferrari driver.


Multi 21 and the "tough luck" Ricciardo incident in 2014 did not stand in the way of Vettel being signed by Ferrari. Likewise, Schumachers antics before and during his Ferrari era were no problem. If anything, if you are to be the number 1 in Ferrari they want a ruthless driver. Imagine Alonso refusing to be let by Massa in Germany 2010 of Schumacher refusing to be let by in Austria... The number 2 is a different story however.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:18 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.


I'm sure you would understand if it was Vettel and Kimi :lol:

Hamilton was faster than Bottas, it's better to have a slim chance of getting another position than no chance. Thats why the team kept telling Hamilton to push, if he slowed down for Bottas the Ferrari's would go of into the distance taking it easy at least if Hamilton is pushing behind there is a slight chance or a mistake from the leading 2.


I recall Vettel being faster in China and went for the overtake not asking to be let by!

Look at it from this point and not your bias, Hamilton could not get past Bottas with team orders but was going to overtake the Ferraris? yeah right.

In clear air it's easy to go fast, you do realise Max was doing the same lap times if not faster than Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:20 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


Obviously such behavior removes him from consideration to be a Ferrari driver.


Multi 21 and the "tough luck" Ricciardo incident in 2014 did not stand in the way of Vettel being signed by Ferrari. Likewise, Schumachers antics before and during his Ferrari era were no problem. If anything, if you are to be the number 1 in Ferrari they want a ruthless driver. Imagine Alonso refusing to be let by Massa in Germany 2010 of Schumacher refusing to be let by in Austria... The number 2 is a different story however.


You are really going to compare to a 4X WDC?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:30 pm 
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
As admirable as it was for Lewis to give the position back, I thought it was the wrong move for the team. They should not be worried about fairness right now as they battle ANOTHER TEAM for the titles. If he ends up losing by a couple of points...


Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.


I'm sure you would understand if it was Vettel and Kimi :lol:

Hamilton was faster than Bottas, it's better to have a slim chance of getting another position than no chance. Thats why the team kept telling Hamilton to push, if he slowed down for Bottas the Ferrari's would go of into the distance taking it easy at least if Hamilton is pushing behind there is a slight chance or a mistake from the leading 2.


I recall Vettel being faster in China and went for the overtake not asking to be let by!

Look at it from this point and not your bias, Hamilton could not get past Bottas with team orders but was going to overtake the Ferraris? yeah right.

In clear air it's easy to go fast, you do realise Max was doing the same lap times if not faster than Hamilton.


Not worth trying then?

Max was as quick as Kimi/Hamilton but he had 11 lap fresher tyres.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:33 pm 
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


Obviously such behavior removes him from consideration to be a Ferrari driver.


Multi 21 and the "tough luck" Ricciardo incident in 2014 did not stand in the way of Vettel being signed by Ferrari. Likewise, Schumachers antics before and during his Ferrari era were no problem. If anything, if you are to be the number 1 in Ferrari they want a ruthless driver. Imagine Alonso refusing to be let by Massa in Germany 2010 of Schumacher refusing to be let by in Austria... The number 2 is a different story however.


You are really going to compare to a 4X WDC?


I don't understand your point? Because Vettel had many WDC's he doesn't need to follow team orders? Hmmm doesn't Hamilton have 3x WDC so what does that mean?


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:35 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Not worth trying then?

Max was as quick as Kimi/Hamilton but he had 11 lap fresher tyres.


He was not going to get past except the Ferrari ran into trouble like Silverstone, Not one attempt at an overtake was made by Hamilton, I see it more as Mercedes embarrassing themselves, it was a pointless tactic!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:37 pm 
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Not worth trying then?

Max was as quick as Kimi/Hamilton but he had 11 lap fresher tyres.


He was not going to get past except the Ferrari ran into trouble like Silverstone, Not one attempt at an overtake was made by Hamilton, I see it more as Mercedes embarrassing themselves, it was a pointless tactic!


Didn't the Ferrari already run into trouble? It had a steering problem and was lapping slow.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:44 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Not worth trying then?

Max was as quick as Kimi/Hamilton but he had 11 lap fresher tyres.


He was not going to get past except the Ferrari ran into trouble like Silverstone, Not one attempt at an overtake was made by Hamilton, I see it more as Mercedes embarrassing themselves, it was a pointless tactic!


Didn't the Ferrari already run into trouble? It had a steering problem and was lapping slow.


Not slow enough to overtake.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:47 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
I doubt that simply because - What the hell would he invite Verstappen on his tail for? Of all people. Makes no sense


Bottas was asked to move over for his teammate, so his race was finished. Why would he continue to push like the team asked him to? It was in his best interest to slow down as much as possible at that point, without giving up positions on track.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:49 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:

Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.


I'm sure you would understand if it was Vettel and Kimi :lol:

Hamilton was faster than Bottas, it's better to have a slim chance of getting another position than no chance. Thats why the team kept telling Hamilton to push, if he slowed down for Bottas the Ferrari's would go of into the distance taking it easy at least if Hamilton is pushing behind there is a slight chance or a mistake from the leading 2.


I recall Vettel being faster in China and went for the overtake not asking to be let by!

Look at it from this point and not your bias, Hamilton could not get past Bottas with team orders but was going to overtake the Ferraris? yeah right.

In clear air it's easy to go fast, you do realise Max was doing the same lap times if not faster than Hamilton.


Not worth trying then?

Max was as quick as Kimi/Hamilton but he had 11 lap fresher tyres.


Yep you answered the Max question.

Hamilton was going quicker than Bottas when him and Kimi was being held up by Vettel's car which had a problem. Bottas couldn't keep up.

I never said Hamilton was going to overtake, that's why I said slim chance and was talking more about pushing the Ferrari's into a mistake. Some chance I'd better than no chance.

No need to talk about being biased when your most biased of them all.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 1:51 pm 
SmoothRide wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I doubt that simply because - What the hell would he invite Verstappen on his tail for? Of all people. Makes no sense


Bottas was asked to move over for his teammate, so his race was finished. Why would he continue to push like the team asked him to? It was in his best interest to slow down as much as possible at that point, without giving up positions on track.


The lead car had an issue that nobody knew how it would play out. Also, if Hamilton and Raikkonen had contact then he may have been able to get both of them. The best position to be was about 2 seconds behind Hamilton out of the hot air and ready to attack if i)Vettel slowed more and became a sitting duck ii) Kimi and Hamilton made an error battling iii) Protect himself from a charging torpedo Verstappen

Bottas is slow on one compound tyre, every race, it happens every single race.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:04 pm 
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Not worth trying then?

Max was as quick as Kimi/Hamilton but he had 11 lap fresher tyres.


He was not going to get past except the Ferrari ran into trouble like Silverstone, Not one attempt at an overtake was made by Hamilton, I see it more as Mercedes embarrassing themselves, it was a pointless tactic!


Didn't the Ferrari already run into trouble? It had a steering problem and was lapping slow.


Not slow enough to overtake.


With hindsight yes. AVB said post race we had the race won, then we lost it, then we won it again... so maybe Ferrari knew a little more than you about if overtaking was possible and how much trouble Seb was in.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:05 pm 
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lamo wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
The lead car had an issue that nobody knew how it would play out. Also, if Hamilton and Raikkonen had contact then he may have been able to get both of them. The best position to be was about 2 seconds behind Hamilton out of the hot air and ready to attack if i)Vettel slowed more and became a sitting duck ii) Kimi and Hamilton made an error battling iii) Protect himself from a charging torpedo Verstappen

Bottas is slow on one compound tyre, every race, it happens every single race.


Certainly not every race as he has won a couple very convincingly. Even if Vettel had a problem, Bottas was only set to finish 3rd after letting Lewis pass him. In any case, he chose the optimal strategy. Maximum points with minimal effort and currently just 19 behind Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:06 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
He was even ready to surrender the place back after misunderstanding his engineer telling him he had been given another five laps in which to try it. “I don’t think there’s any more I can do,” he responded. “Do you want me to give the place back to Valtteri now?” Negative, he was told. Not yet.

With Verstappen getting ever-closer, there was a real danger that he wasn’t going to be in a position to be handed the place back as it opened up the possibility of Max passing them both. “Push up to Lewis,” Valtteri was instructed. But it was easier said than done.

With Verstappen right on their tail. Hamilton was instructed by the team to only do it if he thought it could be accomplished without risk. He did it at the very last corner. Verstappen followed Hamilton by 0.5sec over the line.

From Mark Hughes Hungary race report http://www.motorsportmagazine.com/repor ... grand-prix


Yeah interesting stuff.

It sounds like the team were not super-enthusiastic about risking the swap back, but Hamilton chose to do it anyway. I certainly don't think it was done without risk, and Hamilton's comments afterwards that he was relieved he managed to pull it off while keeping Max behind him says there was risk involved.

The team got themselves into this mess by refusing Hamilton's offer of handing the place back earlier when it was safe, and when it was clear he wasn't getting past Kimi. They could see the situation with Max developing behind but they still told Hamilton to stay in front while warning him about the Red Bull closing on Valtteri.

All things considered, I wonder if secretly Mercedes/Toto hoped Hamilton wouldn't hand the place back right at the end? They essentially created the conditions where it became almost impossible to give the place back.


Last edited by MasterRacer on Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:06 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
lamo wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
The lead car had an issue that nobody knew how it would play out. Also, if Hamilton and Raikkonen had contact then he may have been able to get both of them. The best position to be was about 2 seconds behind Hamilton out of the hot air and ready to attack if i)Vettel slowed more and became a sitting duck ii) Kimi and Hamilton made an error battling iii) Protect himself from a charging torpedo Verstappen

Bottas is slow on one compound tyre, every race, it happens every single race.


Certainly not every race as he has won a couple very convincingly. Even if Vettel had a problem, Bottas was only set to finish 3rd after letting Lewis pass him. In any case, he chose the optimal strategy. Maximum points with minimal effort and currently just 19 behind Hamilton.


Or was just slow on that compound which has even happened in the races he has won.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:12 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
lamo wrote:
Blinky McSquinty wrote:
optimisteprime wrote:
Interestingly Bottas has now beaten Hamilton in five of the last seven races that both have finished. Maybe it is in Lewis' best interest to set a precedent of no team orders with the direction things are moving, and reverse the precedent that they set when they used team orders to allow Lewis to beat Valterri in Bahrain.


Obviously such behavior removes him from consideration to be a Ferrari driver.


Multi 21 and the "tough luck" Ricciardo incident in 2014 did not stand in the way of Vettel being signed by Ferrari. Likewise, Schumachers antics before and during his Ferrari era were no problem. If anything, if you are to be the number 1 in Ferrari they want a ruthless driver. Imagine Alonso refusing to be let by Massa in Germany 2010 of Schumacher refusing to be let by in Austria... The number 2 is a different story however.


You are really going to compare to a 4X WDC?


I don't understand your point? Because Vettel had many WDC's he doesn't need to follow team orders? Hmmm doesn't Hamilton have 3x WDC so what does that mean?

It means he doesn't have to follow 75% of team orders

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:16 pm 
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Why exactly did Merc need to promise Bottas that Hamilton would give the place back? Everyone knows that when it comes to it, if Merc need him to help Lewis (whether Lewis wants him to or not) they are going to be waving the contract at him from the pitwall (a technique that Ferrari employed with Massa to great effect). It seems from everything that's been said Merc were hoping the 'right' driver would get on the podium.

On the other hand, I guess you could say (for all Toto's post race spin) Merc are entitled to back the guy they think gives them the best chance, especially now they aren't in the dominant position they were. Although it would be ironic if LH has a DNF and Bottas suddenly appears ahead of him in the standings - then what?

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:20 pm 
SmoothRide wrote:
lamo wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
The lead car had an issue that nobody knew how it would play out. Also, if Hamilton and Raikkonen had contact then he may have been able to get both of them. The best position to be was about 2 seconds behind Hamilton out of the hot air and ready to attack if i)Vettel slowed more and became a sitting duck ii) Kimi and Hamilton made an error battling iii) Protect himself from a charging torpedo Verstappen

Bottas is slow on one compound tyre, every race, it happens every single race.


Certainly not every race as he has won a couple very convincingly. Even if Vettel had a problem, Bottas was only set to finish 3rd after letting Lewis pass him. In any case, he chose the optimal strategy. Maximum points with minimal effort and currently just 19 behind Hamilton.


Austria he won, but was slower in the 2nd stint. Mercedes knew he would be so they gave him a big tyre offset with Vettel (bottas had 8 lap fresher tyres) but was still caught with Vettel hounding him at the end.

With Hindsight he run a strategy that didn't change the outcome. But at the time, the optimum was to stay close to the leaders, nothing to gain by dropping back. Vettel might have became to lose 1 second more per lap and been passed by both Kimi and Lewis, Bottas 8 seconds behind and might not have got Vettel in such scenario. No reason to fall so far behind, none at all.

With regards to falling back as the race is over, Hamilton wouldn't have won in Austin 2015 if he did so. Likewise, just the race before, if Bottas had given up and realised he couldn't catch Kimi - then Kimi wouldn't have been pushing so hard and his tyre might not have gone... You keep the pressure on and stay in contact ready to pick up scraps at the end.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:24 pm 
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ALESI wrote:
Why exactly did Merc need to promise Bottas that Hamilton would give the place back? Everyone knows that when it comes to it, if Merc need him to help Lewis (whether Lewis wants him to or not) they are going to be waving the contract at him from the pitwall (a technique that Ferrari employed with Massa to great effect). It seems from everything that's been said Merc were hoping the 'right' driver would get on the podium.

On the other hand, I guess you could say (for all Toto's post race spin) Merc are entitled to back the guy they think gives them the best chance, especially now they aren't in the dominant position they were. Although it would be ironic if LH has a DNF and Bottas suddenly appears ahead of him in the standings - then what?

I think Mercedes will favour whichever driver is the fastest at the time given how close they are in the championship. Bottas has actually out scored Hamilton since China 146 points to 145 and while you can point to Baku for Hamilton don't forget that includes a DNF for Bottas in Spain for Mechanical issues. Bottas has been clearly slower overall IMO but he's also been consistent, it's not unreasonable to think he could pull it off, Nico did.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 2:26 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Prema wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
ALESI wrote:

Ahem, the only reason Hamilton was in front was because Bottas let him through... are we just ignoring that FACT?

Let's not forget we had a race won by a crippled Ferrari here, nobody was getting past anyone else, Hamilton never looked like getting near to passing Kimi and he was on the radio the whole time moaning that Ferrari should let him go faster.

If anything it looks like Ferrari played a blinder here, if we assume that if Kimi had been let past then Seb might have come under a lot more pressure and surrendered second, third and possibly even fourth.

One detail though, on the BBC website it contradicts itself, one time it says 'Bottas was told that if Lewis couldn't pass Kimi the place would be given back' and then other time it says 'if he couldn't pull away the place would be given back', anyone know which is correct? I can't see that being able to pull away justifies a team order as it does not materially affect the result.

Props to Lewis for doing the right thing though, I genuinely didn't think he would. And Bottas needs to be given a new contract right now frankly, that guy is going way beyond the call of duty here.


This is why I'm surprised by the praise, he was let through, and I still don't understand why he was.

1) It turned out to be a big gap to drop back
2) The Verstappen risk

Many a driver would have said "forget it, I can't drop back to that"


As I remember, it was supposed to be a 5-laps attempt and then giving back the place if not successful. The switch was done on the lap 46, and Hamilton kept pushing to the very last lap 70. That's 26 laps of Hamilton apparently not having any intention to slow down and let Bottas ahead but rather building up the gap to him!

On the end, he yielded. He had to choose between being a jerk and not being a jerk. And I am just reading the news report with the headline "Lewis Hamilton risks the title by giving Hungarian Grand Prix podium spot to team-mate". And in the article it states, "Lewis Hamilton let his heart rule his head in a remarkable moment of sportsmanship".
Fake news. Hamilton didn't give anything to his teammate. And a wrong assessment too; it was not his heart but his calculative brain that kicked in and concluded that it was better for him not to be a jerk for 2 points a half of the season down.

If Bottas stuck with him then the argument for 5 laps could be made. But he was dropped like a stone by the top 3, coming after his bizarrely exaggerated way of running off line at Turn 1 to give the place to Hamilton and losing a chunk of time - Jolyon Palmer could give him lessons in how to do it right

He gave the place back because it turns out he's a decent bloke whether you like to admit it or not

I don't see what was wrong with the way Bottas moved over. I thought he was very quickly instructed to let Hamilton by at that specific corner. What he did was get totally out of the way by going wide. He either had to do that or loose more speed and take the normal line and risk slowing Hamilton down. Hamilton wasn't exactly really close at the end of the strait so Bottas did either have to slow right down or go wide. He didn't loose loads of time as he followed directly behind Hamiltn just after the bend. He could have done a slightly better job, but I don't see that it was that bad what he did.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 3:03 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I doubt that simply because - What the hell would he invite Verstappen on his tail for? Of all people. Makes no sense


Bottas was asked to move over for his teammate, so his race was finished. Why would he continue to push like the team asked him to? It was in his best interest to slow down as much as possible at that point, without giving up positions on track.


the team told bottas to stay with hamilton he couldnt, bottas didnt have the pace and not because he turned his engine down.


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