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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:12 pm 
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mds wrote:
This race embodied my exact feelings, that Verstappen is usually the faster one for as long as we can compare the both of them, and that the idea that Ricciardo sets the car up for Sundays and is deliberately slower at the start of the race to kick it up a notch in the second half is just a fabrication because it fits.

Those who insist that there's not enough evidence to go by, I can understand because there isn't a lot, but that's neither of the driver's fault. But most of what we've seen follows the above opinion.

This. Honestly Dan and Max's relative performance this season in terms of pace would essentially have Daniel as a #2 driver. Max has simply had terrible luck and reliability along with a couple of mistakes. He's the better of the two though and it's an impressive thing to see from such a young driver.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:12 pm 
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Looking at the partnership on days like this makes it no different from Seb vs Mark.

The more one looks at this, the more '14 was a fluke for Ric as no one will say Max is a 2secs quicker than Vettel.


Last edited by Rockie on Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:15 pm 
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Can we at least bin the theory that you can't count Verstappen's qualifying and early race pace because Ricciardo will come on strong later?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:25 pm 
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mds wrote:
This race embodied my exact feelings, that Verstappen is usually the faster one for as long as we can compare the both of them, and that the idea that Ricciardo sets the car up for Sundays and is deliberately slower at the start of the race to kick it up a notch in the second half is just a fabrication because it fits.

Those who insist that there's not enough evidence to go by, I can understand because there isn't a lot, but that's neither of the driver's fault. But most of what we've seen follows the above opinion.

No, there isn't a lot of evidence to go by but just it is Verstappen who has cost us some of that evidence on 2 weekends. He took Ricciardo out in Hungary and caused himself to loose a load of points with a silly incident with Massa in Italy. This was 2 occasions where we could have had a lot more evidence to compare their race pace, but instead it gave us evidence that Verstappen gets involved in more incidents that are actually his fault. It is because of this that including everything this season, I would still rate Ricciardo marginally higher than Verstappen, even though it often is clear Verstappen is faster. But Ricciardo hasn't ruined the teams chances for a much better result unlike Verstappen.

I don't normally like rating drivers ahead of others when I know reliability has played a big part on the lack of evidence we've seen. It could chance completely next season and Verstappen may look better the whole time. But because of his incidents and lack of track time, I really can't rate him over Ricciardo. Many base Verstappen's season on his good starts. So many of his good starts ended in a retirement. I know they were not his own fault, but there is no guarantee that a good start will get you a great result. Ricciardo may have been lucky, but his more careful starts have often kept him out of trouble and then his pace really comes alive towards the end of the races. Even in China, he did look better than Verstappen near the end. I don't think many will agree with me, but I think it is too much to say Verstappen is better overall. You can certainly say he's quicker though. But I won't go as far as saying that I think Ricciardo will continue to overall be better as I'm not sure about that. because they have had far less time that any other driver pair on track this year, I can't say either of them are significantly better than the other in this amount of time. Based on last year, I still believe Ricciardo has the edge when we include everything. but Verstappen is getting better in qualifying and his speed is getting better too. So next year, things could change.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:30 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Can we at least bin the theory that you can't count Verstappen's qualifying and early race pace because Ricciardo will come on strong later?


Let's bin the whole thread. Painting this as Vettel/Webber MKII is genuinely laughable, but after 11 pages we've reached that point. Well done.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:33 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Can we at least bin the theory that you can't count Verstappen's qualifying and early race pace because Ricciardo will come on strong later?

I don't think we can just yet no. This is the 2nd race this season where they have had equal oppertunities and kept out of trouble with incidents in qualifying and the race as well as having no grid penalties. Ricciardo often does look strong towards the end of the race and that had very often been the case. And on many occasions, we haven't seen Verstappen against him. Ricciardo was stronger at the end in China. He looked very strong near the end of Monaco. He looked strong near the end in Belgium and got past Bottas. I could list several more. Out of the evidence we have had, I don't know why you are wanting to bin this theory basing it on just the latest race.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:36 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
[. He took Ricciardo out in Hungary and caused himself to loose a load of points with a silly incident with Massa in Italy.


Italy was fully on Massa. Verstappen gave him the space, Massa turned in as if Verstappen wasn't there. Porsche supercup drivers a can get through there side by side, Massa should have handled it better.

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Ricciardo may have been lucky, but his more careful starts have often kept him out of trouble and then his pace really comes alive towards the end of the races.


As before, I think this is wholely circumstantial and based for the most on good achievements after contenders fall away.

Today showed no indication of pace coming alive towards the end.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:42 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
[. He took Ricciardo out in Hungary and caused himself to loose a load of points with a silly incident with Massa in Italy.


Italy was fully on Massa. Verstappen gave him the space, Massa turned in as if Verstappen wasn't there. Porsche supercup drivers a can get through there side by side, Massa should have handled it better.

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Ricciardo may have been lucky, but his more careful starts have often kept him out of trouble and then his pace really comes alive towards the end of the races.


As before, I think this is wholely circumstantial and based for the most on good achievements after contenders fall away.

Today showed no indication of pace coming alive towards the end.

It's really not just about contenders falling away. It's usually about him going deeper on a set of tires and then having the freshest tires at the end.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:42 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
[. He took Ricciardo out in Hungary and caused himself to loose a load of points with a silly incident with Massa in Italy.


Italy was fully on Massa. Verstappen gave him the space, Massa turned in as if Verstappen wasn't there. Porsche supercup drivers a can get through there side by side, Massa should have handled it better.

Quote:
Ricciardo may have been lucky, but his more careful starts have often kept him out of trouble and then his pace really comes alive towards the end of the races.


As before, I think this is wholely circumstantial and based for the most on good achievements after contenders fall away.

Today showed no indication of pace coming alive towards the end.


The pace coming alive towards the end is he being on the faster tyres at the end or new tyres compared to people around him.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:03 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
[. He took Ricciardo out in Hungary and caused himself to loose a load of points with a silly incident with Massa in Italy.


Italy was fully on Massa. Verstappen gave him the space, Massa turned in as if Verstappen wasn't there. Porsche supercup drivers a can get through there side by side, Massa should have handled it better.

Quote:
Ricciardo may have been lucky, but his more careful starts have often kept him out of trouble and then his pace really comes alive towards the end of the races.


As before, I think this is wholely circumstantial and based for the most on good achievements after contenders fall away.

Today showed no indication of pace coming alive towards the end.


Oh well, my opinion then. But I think it was so obvious that that incident was Verstappen being too optomistic. The commentaters on Channal 4 and Sky thought that wouldn't get investigated any further as Verstappen went round the outside and Massa was perfectly entitled to use the racing line. The fact that the the driver who got away with it didn't get any penalty and the other one suffered explains it all. It was either Verstappen's fault and they thought his damage already paid for his mistake or it was a racing incident at the worst. Massa most definatly wasn't to blame. If he was, then he wouldn't have got away without a penalty.

About Ricciardo, this was 1 of the 2 races the pair have kept out of trouble over qualifying and the race. There have been plenty of occations where Ricciardo did look really strong near the end of other races. The other race that was trouble free for example. Monaco? It was Verstappen who had pitted for a new set of tyres in that race but Ricciardo uses his old ones and pulled away from Bottas towards the Ferrari's pretty rapidly. I know verstappen could have maybe done the same, but the fact is, we saw Ricciardo perform really well, as we've seen so many times this season. We've only got the chance seen Verstappen perform very well a few times. And a couple of the times he's had the opportunity to perform, he's messed up either his own chance or the teams points.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:40 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Looking at the partnership on days like this makes it no different from Seb vs Mark.

The more one looks at this, the more '14 was a fluke for Ric as no one will say Max is a 2secs quicker than Vettel.


No-one will say Max is 2s quicker than Dan either.

Why does Max beating Dan mean '14 was a fluke?. It's got nothing to do with Seb and Max could easily have done a race like this against not just Seb but Alonso or Lewis too.

He's a top driver, this is what they do. Dan's done it to him and will again and vice versa.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:50 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Can we at least bin the theory that you can't count Verstappen's qualifying and early race pace because Ricciardo will come on strong later?


You can't bin anything based on one race or China(Where Dan's pace was better at the end) wins as it came first and everything else is already in the bin, right?.

Max was quicker this weekend but not by much at all, neither in Q or R. Dan leaving Bottas too much room on the outside at the start and getting stuck behind him and then the team leaving Dan out too long helped create the gap.

Pace wise Max was quicker by a couple of tenths on avg. Nothing to panic about, Max was just better this weekend.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:08 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Oh well, my opinion then. But I think it was so obvious that that incident was Verstappen being too optomistic. The commentaters on Channal 4 and Sky thought that wouldn't get investigated any further as Verstappen went round the outside and Massa was perfectly entitled to use the racing line. The fact that the the driver who got away with it didn't get any penalty and the other one suffered explains it all. It was either Verstappen's fault and they thought his damage already paid for his mistake or it was a racing incident at the worst. Massa most definatly wasn't to blame. If he was, then he wouldn't have got away without a penalty.


Because stewards are always correct and consistent?
Verstappen was on the inside for the lefthander, by the way, he was level with Massa and Massa cut to the apex as if nobody wasn't there.

Explain me how that isn't Massa's fault at all?

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And a couple of the times he's had the opportunity to perform, he's messed up either his own chance or the teams points.


Once. Hungary.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:09 pm 
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Verstappen was beating Ricciardo in Bahrain, Canada, Azerbaijan, and Belgium before his car failed. Dan gained 65 points on Max in those races.

In Austria, Spain, Singapore, and Monza - Max was involved in collisions that were not his fault. Dan gained 56 points on Max in those races.

Ricciardo probably lost around 20-25 points in Russia and Hungary from incidents not his fault.

I honestly cannot remember the last time the points standings between two teammates were ever this misleading. Maybe Senna-Prost in 1989?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:12 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
[. He took Ricciardo out in Hungary and caused himself to loose a load of points with a silly incident with Massa in Italy.


Italy was fully on Massa. Verstappen gave him the space, Massa turned in as if Verstappen wasn't there. Porsche supercup drivers a can get through there side by side, Massa should have handled it better.

Quote:
Ricciardo may have been lucky, but his more careful starts have often kept him out of trouble and then his pace really comes alive towards the end of the races.


As before, I think this is wholely circumstantial and based for the most on good achievements after contenders fall away.

Today showed no indication of pace coming alive towards the end.


Oh well, my opinion then. But I think it was so obvious that that incident was Verstappen being too optomistic. The commentaters on Channal 4 and Sky thought that wouldn't get investigated any further as Verstappen went round the outside and Massa was perfectly entitled to use the racing line. The fact that the the driver who got away with it didn't get any penalty and the other one suffered explains it all. It was either Verstappen's fault and they thought his damage already paid for his mistake or it was a racing incident at the worst. Massa most definatly wasn't to blame. If he was, then he wouldn't have got away without a penalty.

About Ricciardo, this was 1 of the 2 races the pair have kept out of trouble over qualifying and the race. There have been plenty of occations where Ricciardo did look really strong near the end of other races. The other race that was trouble free for example. Monaco? It was Verstappen who had pitted for a new set of tyres in that race but Ricciardo uses his old ones and pulled away from Bottas towards the Ferrari's pretty rapidly. I know verstappen could have maybe done the same, but the fact is, we saw Ricciardo perform really well, as we've seen so many times this season. We've only got the chance seen Verstappen perform very well a few times. And a couple of the times he's had the opportunity to perform, he's messed up either his own chance or the teams points.


That's just not true this year. The stewards are giving out far less penalties (thank goodness). I am sure I have seen you criticise Max for incidents where he hasn't received a penalty?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:28 pm 
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The interesting thing is what comes next. Will Max stay at Red bull or will he leave? It seems to me like the Renault power plant is really coming good of late and Red Bull have finally closed up to Ferrari and Mercedes a bit over these last few weekends. It wouldn't be a shock if they had one or both of them beat when the new cars launch next year. I think both Kimi and Bottas are on borrowed time at their teams. If Red Bull do not improve next year, their drivers will both be leaving for greener pastures. Even if they do improve my guess is that Max will finally beat Daniel in the points next season and Daniel will leave the team at the end of the year (unless the car is dominant).

Max has got to be seen as the top young driver though from the perspective of Ferrari or Mercedes. Both of those teams are completely satisfied with their lead drivers so they may not necessarily be in a hurry to replace their supporting drivers (provided the other one doesn't). If, for example, Ferrari were to renew Kimi again and if Red Bull were still third best, I think Mercedes might be content to just renew Bottas to the same length deal that Raikkonen gets. It would actually shoot them in the foot somewhat if Ferrari were to have no in-team competition while they did. Max is so young that both Ferrari and Mercedes may feel like they can leave him to develop for another 3 years and then sign him when their top driver actually leaves. Of course they won't want to let their rival snap him up first...

Either way, Max looks set to be the top driver in F1 by the time Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are gone. The question is, can he rise to the top while they're still there?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 3:55 pm 
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I do rate Ricciardo btw.

I just think he's unlucky to be up against such a monstrous talent.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:04 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
The interesting thing is what comes next. Will Max stay at Red bull or will he leave? It seems to me like the Renault power plant is really coming good of late and Red Bull have finally closed up to Ferrari and Mercedes a bit over these last few weekends. It wouldn't be a shock if they had one or both of them beat when the new cars launch next year. I think both Kimi and Bottas are on borrowed time at their teams. If Red Bull do not improve next year, their drivers will both be leaving for greener pastures. Even if they do improve my guess is that Max will finally beat Daniel in the points next season and Daniel will leave the team at the end of the year (unless the car is dominant).

Max has got to be seen as the top young driver though from the perspective of Ferrari or Mercedes. Both of those teams are completely satisfied with their lead drivers so they may not necessarily be in a hurry to replace their supporting drivers (provided the other one doesn't). If, for example, Ferrari were to renew Kimi again and if Red Bull were still third best, I think Mercedes might be content to just renew Bottas to the same length deal that Raikkonen gets. It would actually shoot them in the foot somewhat if Ferrari were to have no in-team competition while they did. Max is so young that both Ferrari and Mercedes may feel like they can leave him to develop for another 3 years and then sign him when their top driver actually leaves. Of course they won't want to let their rival snap him up first...

Either way, Max looks set to be the top driver in F1 by the time Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are gone. The question is, can he rise to the top while they're still there?

He may not have a choice in the matter. I don't see Mercedes or Ferrari falling over themselves to sign him while they have their incumbent number 1s.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:12 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Looking at the partnership on days like this makes it no different from Seb vs Mark.

The more one looks at this, the more '14 was a fluke for Ric as no one will say Max is a 2secs quicker than Vettel.

2 seconds???

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:18 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Verstappen was beating Ricciardo in Bahrain, Canada, Azerbaijan, and Belgium before his car failed. Dan gained 65 points on Max in those races.

In Austria, Spain, Singapore, and Monza - Max was involved in collisions that were not his fault. Dan gained 56 points on Max in those races.

Ricciardo probably lost around 20-25 points in Russia and Hungary from incidents not his fault.

I honestly cannot remember the last time the points standings between two teammates were ever this misleading. Maybe Senna-Prost in 1989?

Hamilton-Button 2012.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

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2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: 9th Place
2018: Currently 8th

Wins: Canada 2018, Abu Dhabi 2017
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:22 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:

Oh well, my opinion then. But I think it was so obvious that that incident was Verstappen being too optomistic. The commentaters on Channal 4 and Sky thought that wouldn't get investigated any further as Verstappen went round the outside and Massa was perfectly entitled to use the racing line. The fact that the the driver who got away with it didn't get any penalty and the other one suffered explains it all. It was either Verstappen's fault and they thought his damage already paid for his mistake or it was a racing incident at the worst. Massa most definatly wasn't to blame. If he was, then he wouldn't have got away without a penalty.


Because stewards are always correct and consistent?
Verstappen was on the inside for the lefthander, by the way, he was level with Massa and Massa cut to the apex as if nobody wasn't there.

Explain me how that isn't Massa's fault at all?

Quote:
And a couple of the times he's had the opportunity to perform, he's messed up either his own chance or the teams points.


Once. Hungary.

Brundle said that Massa had the right to use the racing line that he did on Sky's commentry. And I agree with him. That was too optomistic from Verstappen and he should have known it wouldn't work. I still stand by my opinion that if Verstappen was the one who suffered and Massa got away, if they don't blame either, the worst it could have been is a racing incident. But I personally think verstappen was mainly to blame. But I still don't think Massa was to blame. verstappen put himself in that situation my trying to get past somewhere where a driver has the right to go where they want. Verstappen wasn't far enough along side for Massa to have to give him space. I can fully understand why they didn't punish Massa and Verstappen got damage at his own expense. So in my opinion he didn't perform anywhere near as well as he could have done twice. Lets just agree we think very differently. But when ever I argue my case, I normally base it on the stewards decision. even if they are sometimes inconsistent, who have to accept that they have more data and evedence than we will ever see so you'll just have to accept their decision.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:29 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Verstappen wasn't far enough along side for Massa to have to give him space.


What you can be more alongside than dead even?

Screenshot from right before Massa decided to cut to the apex:

Image

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:59 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The interesting thing is what comes next. Will Max stay at Red bull or will he leave? It seems to me like the Renault power plant is really coming good of late and Red Bull have finally closed up to Ferrari and Mercedes a bit over these last few weekends. It wouldn't be a shock if they had one or both of them beat when the new cars launch next year. I think both Kimi and Bottas are on borrowed time at their teams. If Red Bull do not improve next year, their drivers will both be leaving for greener pastures. Even if they do improve my guess is that Max will finally beat Daniel in the points next season and Daniel will leave the team at the end of the year (unless the car is dominant).

Max has got to be seen as the top young driver though from the perspective of Ferrari or Mercedes. Both of those teams are completely satisfied with their lead drivers so they may not necessarily be in a hurry to replace their supporting drivers (provided the other one doesn't). If, for example, Ferrari were to renew Kimi again and if Red Bull were still third best, I think Mercedes might be content to just renew Bottas to the same length deal that Raikkonen gets. It would actually shoot them in the foot somewhat if Ferrari were to have no in-team competition while they did. Max is so young that both Ferrari and Mercedes may feel like they can leave him to develop for another 3 years and then sign him when their top driver actually leaves. Of course they won't want to let their rival snap him up first...

Either way, Max looks set to be the top driver in F1 by the time Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are gone. The question is, can he rise to the top while they're still there?

He may not have a choice in the matter. I don't see Mercedes or Ferrari falling over themselves to sign him while they have their incumbent number 1s.

It's an interesting dilemma for them isn't it? If, for example, Max were to join one of their teams next year hypothetically, that team would improve in the WCC standings but, assuming performance levels are similar next year, the other team would be more likely to take the WDC. As such, bringing in Max (or Daniel for that matter) only makes sense for either of those teams if the other team replaces their #2 driver.

It's really going to start with Ferrari IMO. If they extend Raikkonen; Mercedes will likely extend Bottas. If they drop Raikkonen for either Dan or Max, Mercedes will likely go after the other one. If they drop Raikkonen and sign another driver who is basically there to be a #2; I can see Mercedes signing Ricciardo but probably not Max. They might see Ricciardo as a sort of Nico 2.0 (a driver who can actually challenge Hamilton). I think both outfits would like to bring in Max when their lead driver is ready to walk away. By then, Max will be 23-25 and will have matured and grown into a complete package; fully capable of stepping into those shoes.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:01 pm 
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mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Verstappen wasn't far enough along side for Massa to have to give him space.


What you can be more alongside than dead even?

Screenshot from right before Massa decided to cut to the apex:

Image

I'm talking about the end of the start finish strait. Massa was ahead then and Verstappen put himself in this situation. I don't think you should take thia any further as I don't think I'll agree. I agree with the verdict that is was a racing incident.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:16 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
GingerFurball wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The interesting thing is what comes next. Will Max stay at Red bull or will he leave? It seems to me like the Renault power plant is really coming good of late and Red Bull have finally closed up to Ferrari and Mercedes a bit over these last few weekends. It wouldn't be a shock if they had one or both of them beat when the new cars launch next year. I think both Kimi and Bottas are on borrowed time at their teams. If Red Bull do not improve next year, their drivers will both be leaving for greener pastures. Even if they do improve my guess is that Max will finally beat Daniel in the points next season and Daniel will leave the team at the end of the year (unless the car is dominant).

Max has got to be seen as the top young driver though from the perspective of Ferrari or Mercedes. Both of those teams are completely satisfied with their lead drivers so they may not necessarily be in a hurry to replace their supporting drivers (provided the other one doesn't). If, for example, Ferrari were to renew Kimi again and if Red Bull were still third best, I think Mercedes might be content to just renew Bottas to the same length deal that Raikkonen gets. It would actually shoot them in the foot somewhat if Ferrari were to have no in-team competition while they did. Max is so young that both Ferrari and Mercedes may feel like they can leave him to develop for another 3 years and then sign him when their top driver actually leaves. Of course they won't want to let their rival snap him up first...

Either way, Max looks set to be the top driver in F1 by the time Hamilton, Alonso and Vettel are gone. The question is, can he rise to the top while they're still there?

He may not have a choice in the matter. I don't see Mercedes or Ferrari falling over themselves to sign him while they have their incumbent number 1s.

It's an interesting dilemma for them isn't it? If, for example, Max were to join one of their teams next year hypothetically, that team would improve in the WCC standings but, assuming performance levels are similar next year, the other team would be more likely to take the WDC. As such, bringing in Max (or Daniel for that matter) only makes sense for either of those teams if the other team replaces their #2 driver.

It's really going to start with Ferrari IMO. If they extend Raikkonen; Mercedes will likely extend Bottas. If they drop Raikkonen for either Dan or Max, Mercedes will likely go after the other one. If they drop Raikkonen and sign another driver who is basically there to be a #2; I can see Mercedes signing Ricciardo but probably not Max. They might see Ricciardo as a sort of Nico 2.0 (a driver who can actually challenge Hamilton). I think both outfits would like to bring in Max when their lead driver is ready to walk away. By then, Max will be 23-25 and will have matured and grown into a complete package; fully capable of stepping into those shoes.

Ricciardo is more likely IMO. Neither Vettel or Hamilton like Verstappen.

I'll be amazed if Ricciardo isn't in red for 2019.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:22 pm 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
mds wrote:
TheGiantHogweed wrote:
Verstappen wasn't far enough along side for Massa to have to give him space.


What you can be more alongside than dead even?

Screenshot from right before Massa decided to cut to the apex:

Image

I'm talking about the end of the start finish strait. Massa was ahead then and Verstappen put himself in this situation. I don't think you should take thia any further as I don't think I'll agree. I agree with the verdict that is was a racing incident.


They didn't came together in the right-hander they came together in the left-hander. I have no idea why you would be arguing over the corner where nothing happened instead of the one where there was contact.

Simply put Verstappen held on to be alongside at the entry to the left-hander, so had every right to be there and Massa should not have cut to the apex.

Honestly, explain me with the above picture in mind how Massa can take the apex of the corner ahead. Please do, because I don't understand.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:27 pm 
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Massa is aiming at the apex in the picture above. It's not on Massa to roll out the red carpet for Verstappen.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 5:28 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Massa is aiming at the apex in the picture above. It's not on Massa to roll out the red carpet for Verstappen.


OK so now you can just barge your way to the apex no matter somebody being dead even with you on the inside?

That's bull and you should know it.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 6:03 pm 
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[quote="GingerFurball"]Massa is aiming at the apex in the picture above. It's not on Massa to roll out the red carpet for Verstappen.[/quote]

So what?

If someone is between Massa and the appex he can't just go for it anyway. Verstappen's on the inside, what is he supposed to do just evaporate because Massa wants the piece of road he's on?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Unfortunately the stewards have made a rod for their own back recently by allowing cars to run out an opponent on the outside on exit if they claim the apex to the corner and technically that's what Massa did in T1 so he was allowed to run out Max on exit in the pic above.

It sucks but it's why it was deemed a racing incident and most other attacks take place on curva grande now. It's too easy to "win" the apex on the inside of T1 defending the inside line and you're screwed if you're still on the outside as the exit is effectively the apex to T2 . It's better to wait until curva grande and that's why a lot of journos/pundits felt it was a bit impatient.

Until running a car out on exit is punished then at a few specific corners on the calendar like this it gets messy.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:20 pm 
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If Massa did what he did and got away with it, then within the rules, there is nothing wrong with what he did. So I don't think it is worth taking it any further. Others can have their own opinion, but according to the result of this clash and the decision they made, it is clear that they think Massa did nothing wrong since Verstappen was the one who came off worse and they still took it no further. The decision is up to them.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:28 pm 
Rockie wrote:
Looking at the partnership on days like this makes it no different from Seb vs Mark.

The more one looks at this, the more '14 was a fluke for Ric as no one will say Max is a 2secs quicker than Vettel.


2 seconds?

How did you get that number? Maybe Max is 0.150 faster than Ricciardo who is also 0.150 faster than Vettel...


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I would put it more like a tenth or less in raw speed difference interval in Max>Daniel>Seb and dependent on track/car suitability too. So I think Max is no more than two tenths quicker than Seb which is also where I rate Lewis. Daniel I put a tenth behind on a par with Fernando.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:09 pm 
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This thread is as pointless as debating which football club is better, Richmond or Collingwood (it's Richmond btw).

Anyway, here's my summary of the various views:

Max is like a stream of bat's p|ss. He shines out like a shaft of gold when all around is dark.
While Dan is like a dose of clap. Before he arrives is pleasure, but after is a pain in the dong.



...with apologies to Monty Python...... :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:17 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Rockie wrote:
Looking at the partnership on days like this makes it no different from Seb vs Mark.

The more one looks at this, the more '14 was a fluke for Ric as no one will say Max is a 2secs quicker than Vettel.


2 seconds?

How did you get that number? Maybe Max is 0.150 faster than Ricciardo who is also 0.150 faster than Vettel...

Yeah that's the actual numbers regarding 2014 and this year so the max would be 0.3s although I'm not saying that it would actually work out like that.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:50 pm 
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mas wrote:
I would put it more like a tenth or less in raw speed difference interval in Max>Daniel>Seb and dependent on track/car suitability too. So I think Max is no more than two tenths quicker than Seb which is also where I rate Lewis. Daniel I put a tenth behind on a par with Fernando.

This would be my best guess as well.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:55 pm 
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mas wrote:
I would put it more like a tenth or less in raw speed difference interval in Max>Daniel>Seb and dependent on track/car suitability too. So I think Max is no more than two tenths quicker than Seb which is also where I rate Lewis. Daniel I put a tenth behind on a par with Fernando.

So Verstappen = Hamilton > Ricciardo = Alonso > Vettel?

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:05 am 
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The scary thing about Verstappen is that he just turned 20. Hamilton was in Formula 3 at that age. Verstappen has already established himself as a top 3 driver on the grid. In fact, there's a good chance he's already as good as Lewis.

And F1 drivers usually peak around the age of 30. Max is only going to get better and better.

At this point Verstappen isn't a "promising youngster" anymore. He's a monster in the making.


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:07 am 
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TheGiantHogweed wrote:
If Massa did what he did and got away with it, then within the rules, there is nothing wrong with what he did. So I don't think it is worth taking it any further. Others can have their own opinion, but according to the result of this clash and the decision they made, it is clear that they think Massa did nothing wrong since Verstappen was the one who came off worse and they still took it no further. The decision is up to them.


The decision is up to them, but that doesn't mean they are always right. We are having a facts-based discussion, if you are going to refute what I'm saying then I expect that to be based on something and not just "well the stewards thought it was OK".

Again, picture above is clear. Verstappen is FULLY level and on the inside to the next turn. And Massa moves over and barges into Verstappen and takes his line. Tell me clearly how you think that should be allowed.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 02, 2017 6:10 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Unfortunately the stewards have made a rod for their own back recently by allowing cars to run out an opponent on the outside on exit if they claim the apex to the corner and technically that's what Massa did in T1 so he was allowed to run out Max on exit in the pic above.

It sucks but it's why it was deemed a racing incident and most other attacks take place on curva grande now. It's too easy to "win" the apex on the inside of T1 defending the inside line and you're screwed if you're still on the outside as the exit is effectively the apex to T2 . It's better to wait until curva grande and that's why a lot of journos/pundits felt it was a bit impatient.

Until running a car out on exit is punished then at a few specific corners on the calendar like this it gets messy.


Well, drivers are allowed to run out an opponent on the outside but not if they just claim the apex, it is if they are ahead (even if just by a wheel) on corner exit. If they take the apex but the opponent manages to stay level or ahead then it is not normally allowed to take it. And it shouldn't be, in any case.

Aside from that, there are conflicting situations. There is the running out on corner exit, but this is a chicane meaning there's a corner following. And Verstappen is perfectly placed to claim the apex of that corner, is level, and should be given space.

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Last edited by mds on Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:35 am, edited 1 time in total.

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