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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 4:58 pm 
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The only 'down side' I can see with this, is that Honda have just opened a new centre in England. It would be a lot of upheaval to move the whole caboodle off to Switzerland after just getting it up and running.

Not saying its a deal breaker, just a consideration.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 8:44 pm 
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I think it will be a merc or a merc or maybe a merc


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:10 am 
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I'm sure it has been asked before. But what stops McLaren building their own engines? I'm not so much talking for 2018, I mean moving forward into the new regs (2021) when everyone is essentially going to be starting from scratch (assuming the move is away from the complex hybrids we have now to something more cost effective). I have no doubt that they have the technical expertise (or that they can hire it), but I guess its more a desire. Does McLaren have the desire to make a commitment to going down that path? Use a Merc in the interim to regain credibility/prizemoney, and then 2021 become fully accountable for their own performances for better or for worse.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:30 am 
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JackAttack_19 wrote:
I'm sure it has been asked before. But what stops McLaren building their own engines? I'm not so much talking for 2018, I mean moving forward into the new regs (2021) when everyone is essentially going to be starting from scratch (assuming the move is away from the complex hybrids we have now to something more cost effective). I have no doubt that they have the technical expertise (or that they can hire it), but I guess its more a desire. Does McLaren have the desire to make a commitment to going down that path? Use a Merc in the interim to regain credibility/prizemoney, and then 2021 become fully accountable for their own performances for better or for worse.


Money. Far too expensive for them to get it up and running and staffed, it just makes more financial sense to work with Ricardo and a big engine maker for their road car division and get works or customer supply for F1.

Hard to put an actual figure on it but Mercedes are said to be about 700-800m into this engine R&D-wise since 2011 and they already have Brixworth and Stuttgart fully stocked with top equipment,staffed and up and running.

Building one or two factories,stocking and staffing it alone make it a non starter before you get into the actual R&D costs for the engines and they don't have the income to come close to justifying it unlike the big manufacturers so even buying existing factories or engine makers if such were available becomes a big money pit anyway.

Much like Red Bull, if it made any lick of sense or was feasible they'd do it but it just doesn't. It'll be interesting though what happens with the new regs because Red Bull are wanting a lot of spec parts around the energy recovery and Turbo.

And allegedly it's so they could produce an ICE for a reasonable amount(under 25m I read) but they're unlikely to get as much standardized as they want so I doubt anything will come of it but if they did think it was feasible maybe that would tempt McLaren into a further partnership with Ricardo maybe?, I don't know but if RB start then I think McLaren would start considering it at least.

The new engine gets agreed on in July so not long to find out.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:49 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
JackAttack_19 wrote:
I'm sure it has been asked before. But what stops McLaren building their own engines? I'm not so much talking for 2018, I mean moving forward into the new regs (2021) when everyone is essentially going to be starting from scratch (assuming the move is away from the complex hybrids we have now to something more cost effective). I have no doubt that they have the technical expertise (or that they can hire it), but I guess its more a desire. Does McLaren have the desire to make a commitment to going down that path? Use a Merc in the interim to regain credibility/prizemoney, and then 2021 become fully accountable for their own performances for better or for worse.


Money. Far too expensive for them to get it up and running and staffed, it just makes more financial sense to work with Ricardo and a big engine maker for their road car division and get works or customer supply for F1.

Hard to put an actual figure on it but Mercedes are said to be about 700-800m into this engine R&D-wise since 2011 and they already have Brixworth and Stuttgart fully stocked with top equipment,staffed and up and running.

Building one or two factories,stocking and staffing it alone make it a non starter before you get into the actual R&D costs for the engines and they don't have the income to come close to justifying it unlike the big manufacturers so even buying existing factories or engine makers if such were available becomes a big money pit anyway.

Much like Red Bull, if it made any lick of sense or was feasible they'd do it but it just doesn't. It'll be interesting though what happens with the new regs because Red Bull are wanting a lot of spec parts around the energy recovery and Turbo.

And allegedly it's so they could produce an ICE for a reasonable amount(under 25m I read) but they're unlikely to get as much standardized as they want so I doubt anything will come of it but if they did think it was feasible maybe that would tempt McLaren into a further partnership with Ricardo maybe?, I don't know but if RB start then I think McLaren would start considering it at least.

The new engine gets agreed on in July so not long to find out.


Yeh, its not just getting into the game, its staying there. If they sunk enough money into a facility to build a copy of Merc's engine by buying in the engineers who built it, they would still end up with a 3 year old engine.

Merc and Ferrari are running flat out to stand still against each other and they already have momentum. Coming in and getting up to speed would be a phenomenal challenge, but by the time they did, Merc and Ferrari would be streets ahead and Renault would be almost caught up and still far ahead of them.

The only possibility would be to be geared up for the next engine, provided the rules simplify it such as leaving out the H unit and allowing more freedom on fuel injection etc so they can take a slightly different rout not have to bend the rules at huge expense for little gain.

Even then, would they get the engineers? Hi, I am setting up an unknown engine company, would you like to leave your cutting edge job at Merc or Ferrari and come and work for us? Erm, I'll give you a ring but don't hold your breath.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:04 am 
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How about Ferrari engines badged as Alfa Romeo? Motorsport.com seem to think it might be possible.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opin ... eo-919226/


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:37 am 
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owenmahamilton wrote:
How about Ferrari engines badged as Alfa Romeo? Motorsport.com seem to think it might be possible.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opin ... eo-919226/

If Ferrari anything went in the back of a McLaren then Pedro de la Rosa was right - the only thing the same about McLaren these days is the name

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:50 pm 
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IDK if I but Ferrari providing engines to a manufacturer that is one of its biggest rivals on the track as well as in their every day business.
I'd still think Mercedes Will Power McLaren in 2018.

Honda is now touted as making Williams their defacto works team.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:03 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
owenmahamilton wrote:
How about Ferrari engines badged as Alfa Romeo? Motorsport.com seem to think it might be possible.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opin ... eo-919226/

If Ferrari anything went in the back of a McLaren then Pedro de la Rosa was right - the only thing the same about McLaren these days is the name

:thumbup:

A Ferrari engine in a McLaren would be like... a Russian agent in the White House.

Oh, wait, no - that happened. So a Ferrari engine in a McLaren would be something even weirder than that.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:02 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:
owenmahamilton wrote:
How about Ferrari engines badged as Alfa Romeo? Motorsport.com seem to think it might be possible.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/opin ... eo-919226/

If Ferrari anything went in the back of a McLaren then Pedro de la Rosa was right - the only thing the same about McLaren these days is the name

:thumbup:

A Ferrari engine in a McLaren would be like... a Russian agent in the White House.

Oh, wait, no - that happened. So a Ferrari engine in a McLaren would be something even weirder than that.


Mclaren is not Mclaren of old, so the Ferrari engine is not unlikely on grounds of it being a Mclaren, but on grounds of it challenging the factory cars.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:39 pm 
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I read somewhere that Merc have a clause in the engine contract that they cant win races, No idea if its true maybe on of the reasons RB never switched

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 6:44 am 
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lord byron wrote:
I read somewhere that Merc have a clause in the engine contract that they cant win races, No idea if its true maybe on of the reasons RB never switched


Plainly not true, no-one would sign such a contract. McLaren would be giving up 100m a year,Alonso and an engine partner for literally no reason at all in such a case.

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PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 7:49 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
lord byron wrote:
I read somewhere that Merc have a clause in the engine contract that they cant win races, No idea if its true maybe on of the reasons RB never switched


Plainly not true, no-one would sign such a contract. McLaren would be giving up 100m a year,Alonso and an engine partner for literally no reason at all in such a case.

They also have a bridge for sale along with that engine deal...


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:54 am 
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lord byron wrote:
I read somewhere that Merc have a clause in the engine contract that they cant win races, No idea if its true maybe on of the reasons RB never switched

That sounds a bit like an old wife's tale.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 12:09 pm 
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ron has gone now so maybe it be a year old Ferrari engine , but wouldn't merc give the same engine to its customer's as the works team use or would that also be slightly below spec


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:04 pm 
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As the owner of an Alfa Romeo I can testify that McLaren are currently experiencing the typical Alfa Romeo ownership experience.

Ferrari could be interested in giving McLaren an equivalent engine. As a manufacturer in road cars, McLaren had entered the market as an equivalent as Ferrari, however if Ferrari can say "but they need us to make their formula one engines" it will set Ferrari apart in a marketing sense.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 4:02 pm 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
....
Ferrari could be interested in giving McLaren an equivalent engine. As a manufacturer in road cars, McLaren had entered the market as an equivalent as Ferrari, however if Ferrari can say "but they need us to make their formula one engines" it will set Ferrari apart in a marketing sense.


Which wouldn't take long to turn into a marketing/PR disaster if McLaren won with the 'equivalent' customer engine.:lol:


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:20 am 
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So it seems Honda are confident that they will overtake Renault by the end of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-engine-renault-target-939204/

If this is true, then that makes it unlikely that McLaren will be swapping Honda for Renault power, as they'd be in an even worse position than they are now. It would also make it unlikely that Alonso would be going anywhere else, as all the other manufacturer teams are closed down.

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe, tbh. This would (or should) mean that McLaren will be battling the Red Bulls at the end of the year, given that their chassis is supposed to be a front runner. It would also make them genuine podium contenders in 2017 and possible title contenders in 2018. I'm finding such a performance leap hard to grasp

Thoughts?


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:36 pm 
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lord byron wrote:
I read somewhere that Merc have a clause in the engine contract that they cant win races, No idea if its true maybe on of the reasons RB never switched


Fixing the results of a sporting event is illegal in most countries around the world.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So it seems Honda are confident that they will overtake Renault by the end of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-engine-renault-target-939204/

If this is true, then that makes it unlikely that McLaren will be swapping Honda for Renault power, as they'd be in an even worse position than they are now. It would also make it unlikely that Alonso would be going anywhere else, as all the other manufacturer teams are closed down.

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe, tbh. This would (or should) mean that McLaren will be battling the Red Bulls at the end of the year, given that their chassis is supposed to be a front runner. It would also make them genuine podium contenders in 2017 and possible title contenders in 2018. I'm finding such a performance leap hard to grasp

Thoughts?


We've heard Honda say something like this many times before. Let's see how reliable they are when the engine puts out a serious amount of power. Finishing Hungary is no major accomplishment. Let's see both cars finish at Spa and Monza. If they get double points finish in those two races, then and only then I'll begin to believe that a major corner has been turned.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:46 pm 
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Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So it seems Honda are confident that they will overtake Renault by the end of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-engine-renault-target-939204/

If this is true, then that makes it unlikely that McLaren will be swapping Honda for Renault power, as they'd be in an even worse position than they are now. It would also make it unlikely that Alonso would be going anywhere else, as all the other manufacturer teams are closed down.

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe, tbh. This would (or should) mean that McLaren will be battling the Red Bulls at the end of the year, given that their chassis is supposed to be a front runner. It would also make them genuine podium contenders in 2017 and possible title contenders in 2018. I'm finding such a performance leap hard to grasp

Thoughts?


We've heard Honda say something like this many times before. Let's see how reliable they are when the engine puts out a serious amount of power. Finishing Hungary is no major accomplishment. Let's see both cars finish at Spa and Monza. If they get double points finish in those two races, then and only then I'll begin to believe that a major corner has been turned.


As per my belief, McLaren are going to be greatly humbled in Spa & Monza. McLaren can find some solace in Singapore though.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:45 pm 
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We were pleasantly surprised last year at Spa so I'm not sure about that one, aero efficiency is more important there and the car hass inherent grip so maybe there's a chance of a couple of points.

Monza will suck.

But I guess it will come down to whether they get Spec 4 on the car for Spa. Good to see they're growing in confidence though, that's a fairly hefty target considering Renault are supposed to only be 20 horses away in race trim. I just really hope they're not doing the old Honda trick of talking in peak power figures, which is far less impressive and nowhere near as important but sounds good.

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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:18 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
We were pleasantly surprised last year at Spa so I'm not sure about that one, aero efficiency is more important there and the car hass inherent grip so maybe there's a chance of a couple of points.

Monza will suck.

But I guess it will come down to whether they get Spec 4 on the car for Spa. Good to see they're growing in confidence though, that's a fairly hefty target considering Renault are supposed to only be 20 horses away in race trim. I just really hope they're not doing the old Honda trick of talking in peak power figures, which is far less impressive and nowhere near as important but sounds good.


I think that for the next few races the biggest problem for Mclaren Honda will be fuel consumption. They are beginning to show some reasonable power, but will have to run in conservative modes for much of the time, and this will be compounded by not getting as much as the others from the electric 'recovery' energy.


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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:38 pm 
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moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
We were pleasantly surprised last year at Spa so I'm not sure about that one, aero efficiency is more important there and the car hass inherent grip so maybe there's a chance of a couple of points.

Monza will suck.

But I guess it will come down to whether they get Spec 4 on the car for Spa. Good to see they're growing in confidence though, that's a fairly hefty target considering Renault are supposed to only be 20 horses away in race trim. I just really hope they're not doing the old Honda trick of talking in peak power figures, which is far less impressive and nowhere near as important but sounds good.


I think that for the next few races the biggest problem for Mclaren Honda will be fuel consumption. They are beginning to show some reasonable power, but will have to run in conservative modes for much of the time, and this will be compounded by not getting as much as the others from the electric 'recovery' energy.


Honda was dead last in trap speed in Hungary so I doubt that they are showing much power at all. What Honda is showing is a modicum of reliability. Again, not much of an accomplishment as Hungary is the least stressful track on the engine. The real test will be at Spa where engines run near 100% of the time through a huge part of the track.

You are right about fuel consumption. That will be another area that hurts Honda.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:44 am 
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We are already at the point of no return for 2018 at this point IMHO.

McLaren will run Honda next year. Its too late to switch after summer break. This is where a lot of work on next year's car is carried out along with the development of current one. If they were to split we would have heard it before the summer break unless they have already decided and both parties have agreed to keep it quiet which is unlikely.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:16 am 
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funkymonkey wrote:
We are already at the point of no return for 2018 at this point IMHO.

McLaren will run Honda next year. Its too late to switch after summer break. This is where a lot of work on next year's car is carried out along with the development of current one. If they were to split we would have heard it before the summer break unless they have already decided and both parties have agreed to keep it quiet which is unlikely.

Could be wrong here but I thought the whole point of the summer break was that they had to down tools?


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:49 am 
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The factories are only shut for two weeks of that summer break.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:27 pm 
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mas wrote:
The factories are only shut for two weeks of that summer break.


And, I dont think it applies to sub-contracted work, so orders placed will be there when they return with no waiting time.
And most engineers will still be running while on holiday. I did some of my best thinking in the sun with a beer. :]


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:19 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
So it seems Honda are confident that they will overtake Renault by the end of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-engine-renault-target-939204/

If this is true, then that makes it unlikely that McLaren will be swapping Honda for Renault power, as they'd be in an even worse position than they are now. It would also make it unlikely that Alonso would be going anywhere else, as all the other manufacturer teams are closed down.

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe, tbh. This would (or should) mean that McLaren will be battling the Red Bulls at the end of the year, given that their chassis is supposed to be a front runner. It would also make them genuine podium contenders in 2017 and possible title contenders in 2018. I'm finding such a performance leap hard to grasp

Thoughts?

How many times have Honda said something similar but everytime not delivered on their promise?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:16 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So it seems Honda are confident that they will overtake Renault by the end of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-engine-renault-target-939204/

If this is true, then that makes it unlikely that McLaren will be swapping Honda for Renault power, as they'd be in an even worse position than they are now. It would also make it unlikely that Alonso would be going anywhere else, as all the other manufacturer teams are closed down.

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe, tbh. This would (or should) mean that McLaren will be battling the Red Bulls at the end of the year, given that their chassis is supposed to be a front runner. It would also make them genuine podium contenders in 2017 and possible title contenders in 2018. I'm finding such a performance leap hard to grasp

Thoughts?

How many times have Honda said something similar but everytime not delivered on their promise?

True. I personally have lost faith in them a long time ago. They had me when their current power unit was back to 2015 power levels. If you can do that bad, you don't deserve optimism from anyone tbh. But some still are optimistic somehow. I do hope they get it together, but I have a feeling they will always be the worst power unit on the grid. The others are not going to stand still.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:52 am 
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kleefton wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
So it seems Honda are confident that they will overtake Renault by the end of the season:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/honda-engine-renault-target-939204/

If this is true, then that makes it unlikely that McLaren will be swapping Honda for Renault power, as they'd be in an even worse position than they are now. It would also make it unlikely that Alonso would be going anywhere else, as all the other manufacturer teams are closed down.

I'm finding it a bit hard to believe, tbh. This would (or should) mean that McLaren will be battling the Red Bulls at the end of the year, given that their chassis is supposed to be a front runner. It would also make them genuine podium contenders in 2017 and possible title contenders in 2018. I'm finding such a performance leap hard to grasp

Thoughts?

How many times have Honda said something similar but everytime not delivered on their promise?

True. I personally have lost faith in them a long time ago. They had me when their current power unit was back to 2015 power levels. If you can do that bad, you don't deserve optimism from anyone tbh. But some still are optimistic somehow. I do hope they get it together, but I have a feeling they will always be the worst power unit on the grid. The others are not going to stand still.

It was a shock to see how bad they were again at the start of the year but so far they have made impressive gains. If there is a similar sort of improvement from spec 3 to spec 4 as there was for spec 2 to 3, things may finally start to look a lot more positive for McLaren. As already has been mentioned on this thread, we may see fuel consumption start to be problem though.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:51 am 
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There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 10:43 am 
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moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

Another interesting article.
https://drivetribe.com/p/why-the-honda- ... mUPWeAR5CQ

Suggestion that McLaren may have hindered development by a last minute change in fuel supplier at the start of the season.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:59 am 
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moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

That's a good read it seems that Honda maybe finally seeing the light at the end of the tunnel?

A competitive McLaren Honda can only be good for F1.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 12:02 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

Another interesting article.
https://drivetribe.com/p/why-the-honda- ... mUPWeAR5CQ

Suggestion that McLaren may have hindered development by a last minute change in fuel supplier at the start of the season.

Was that not more of a case of them losing their fuel supplier though?

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:32 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

Another interesting article.
https://drivetribe.com/p/why-the-honda- ... mUPWeAR5CQ

Suggestion that McLaren may have hindered development by a last minute change in fuel supplier at the start of the season.


Excellent article. Thank you :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:41 pm 
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angrypirate wrote:
moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

Another interesting article.
https://drivetribe.com/p/why-the-honda- ... mUPWeAR5CQ

Suggestion that McLaren may have hindered development by a last minute change in fuel supplier at the start of the season.


Not McLaren's fault Esso didn't repay the same show of faith McLaren gave them when Mercedes wanted to ditch them for Petronas years before.

If the Honda didn't perform so poorly maybe Esso wouldn't have gone to Red Bull.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 9:09 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

Another interesting article.
https://drivetribe.com/p/why-the-honda- ... mUPWeAR5CQ

Suggestion that McLaren may have hindered development by a last minute change in fuel supplier at the start of the season.


Not McLaren's fault Esso didn't repay the same show of faith McLaren gave them when Mercedes wanted to ditch them for Petronas years before.

If the Honda didn't perform so poorly maybe Esso wouldn't have gone to Red Bull.


Or, just to stir things up, maybe Esso were not capable or interested in making exactly what Honda wanted? We will see if there is any remark from Renault later :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 11, 2017 1:28 pm 
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moby wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
angrypirate wrote:
moby wrote:
There is a good (quite old now) article on Honda's website dealing with this. Well worth a read.


http://en.hondaracingf1.com/newsroom/insight-relentless-development.html

Another interesting article.
https://drivetribe.com/p/why-the-honda- ... mUPWeAR5CQ

Suggestion that McLaren may have hindered development by a last minute change in fuel supplier at the start of the season.


Not McLaren's fault Esso didn't repay the same show of faith McLaren gave them when Mercedes wanted to ditch them for Petronas years before.

If the Honda didn't perform so poorly maybe Esso wouldn't have gone to Red Bull.


Or, just to stir things up, maybe Esso were not capable or interested in making exactly what Honda wanted? We will see if there is any remark from Renault later :twisted:

Bottom line is I don't think we can be blaming McLaren.

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PF1 Pick 10 Competition

2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 11th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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