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Will they split within 90 days
Poll ended at Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:26 pm
Yes 52%  52%  [ 34 ]
No 48%  48%  [ 32 ]
Total votes : 66
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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:26 pm 
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McLaren boss Zak Brown has said they are approaching a fork in the road with Honda after the planned Canada upgrade was shelved with no new date forthcoming. x( http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-motor- ... H?rpc=401&
Zak Brown wrote:
"Honda’s working very hard but they seem a bit lost," said Brown, who replaced Ron Dennis at the helm late last year.

"We were only told recently that we wouldn’t have the upgrade coming (for Montreal)...and we don’t have a definitive timeline, which is concerning because the pain is great and we can’t sit around forever.

"We were eagerly awaiting this upgrade as were our drivers and it’s a big disappointment that it’s not coming. It’s not lack of effort, but they are struggling to get it to come together."

"The executive committee have now given us our marching orders," said Brown, who is also chairman of the fast-growing Motorsport Network media group. "We’re not going to go into another year like this, in hope."

"I don’t want to get into what our options are. Our preference is to win the world championship with Honda. But at some point you need to make a decision as to whether that’s achievable. And we have serious concerns.

"Missing upgrades, and upgrades not delivering to the level we were told they were going to, you can only take that so long. And we’re near our limit."

McLaren have sounded out former partners Mercedes about a possible supply of engines, according to unconfirmed media reports.

"It will all come together," said Brown, who said there were some big decisions to make in the next 90 days with the team needing to plan for the new car and give Alonso a reason to stay.

"There’s lots of things that go into the decision and we’re entering that window now of 'which way do you go when you come to the fork in the road'.


I think this Canada fail upgrade wise is it now unfortunately, maybe best for Honda as well who can work with Sauber away from the intense spotlight of a top team and driver combo with lots of fans. The fact Brown talks about there not being much of a financial penalty to losing Honda's 100m when you factor in prize money and sponsor losses shows how serious Brown is taking the potential split.

I can't see what Honda can do in 90 days to correct it. In this new unit the decision to copy the trickiest part of the Mercedes concept with the longer split turbo, which offers marginal benefits (Ferrari didn't bother and have now largely caught Mercedes) and took over a year for Mercedes to get right, while refusing to copy the combustion techniques that are shown to be working elsewhere but rather seemingly determined to run an r&d exercise on their own combustion techniques which fall flat on their face will kill this partnership dead.

No way they solve that shaft problem killing their MGU-H and implement a copy of the combustion process in 90 days so you may as well call it now.

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Last edited by Lotus49 on Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:36 pm 
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i find this so disheartening, tbh. This has the potential to be the end of McLaren as we know it


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
i find this so disheartening, tbh. This has the potential to be the end of McLaren as we know it


I see the long term concern but with the likelihood Mercedes leave or want to leave as a team in or before 2020 but stay as an engine supplier I can see Brown trying to kill two birds with one stone here.

Keep Alonso and be competitive in 18/19/20 as a preferred customer with Mercedes and then resume works status with them if they do indeed want to leave as a team and go back to being a supplier.

Could be a good way to achieve everything.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:01 pm 
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I dont buy the reasons honda are giving for not bringing the upgrade. What do they really have to lose with their current performance and reliability. While I agree Mclarens best chance to win is with a works engine, they simply dont seem to be functioning as a works team if they get these messages so late. The relationship is broken. 90 days is 90 days if living in denial.
It may be better for both of them to part ways. Mclaren could start getting points and Honda could develop in a less exposed environment with Sauber.


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:16 pm 
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...and then you get Red Bull saying they'll never be truly competitive without a works engine:

http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12433/10906043/red-bull-need-own-engine-to-be-f1-force-again-says-ex-cosworth-chief


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 6:40 pm 
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In an ideal world works supply is definitely best, and I fully expect Red Bull and Williams to be sniffing around Honda during 2018 and will try to secure a works deal if they start getting somewhere with their PU during that year but McLaren are in a different boat now after 3 years of abject failure and need to act.

Lost Esso-Mobil which was huge in this era of PU and Fuel supplier working hand in hand with development, Lost Tag Heur, Lost Johnnie Walker and Lost millions in prize money.

If they lose Alonso and Prod then the sponsors they have left will get nervous and works deal or not it will become harder to attract the engineering and driving talent to first build the car and then secure the results to achieve the level to attract the sponsors back even if the PU comes to the level or even above the customer Mercedes.

It's a vicious cycle and I think McLaren have given Honda as much time as is realistically possible before they are forced to try and secure the talent in the team that they've got.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:02 pm 
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I have o concerns for Mclaren. It's a big team and it will not follow the path of Williams. They will rise, sooner or later, with Mercedes engine or some else. The biggest potential loser is Sauber team. They already ditched Ferrari and signed with Honda for the next year, and now they look stuck with incompetency of Honda yet without aid from Mclaren. Unless, as a mother of all surprises, Honda delivers a miracle next year, and Sauber becomes a championship winning team. Meaning, Sauber now needs miracle.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:09 pm 
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Option A)
If Mclaren split with Honda, they can pack up and go home as they will only be mid table team for the next decade.
If they had made a deal with another engine builder, there would be no maybe, it would be we're off, thank you.
As a customer team, the best they will ever be is second.


Option B)
After reading and dismissing EJ's ramblings about Merc going home at the end of the season, IF they did want to sell off the team, going on past performances, Mclaren would be the best option for them. But what about Team Merc? would anyone buy it without an engine? or would they have a contracted equal engines?


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:14 pm 
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McLaren said several times that they have no plan B if they split with Honda


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 8:37 pm 
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what a waste of 3 years for everybody concerned, and all the talk about needing a works engine to win a championship, and now they say we can win with a customer engine , and will a merc engine persuade Alonso to stay next year - only if he doesn't get any decent offers ,and its looking like he needs to go back to Ferrari , with the merc works team looking like they are not able to win a championship at the moment , how will a customer team do it ?

did he enjoy indy racing that much to fully commit to a future there - I doubt it as it doesn't look as interesting as F1 does it ?
are his options running out in F1


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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:29 pm 
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I think McLaren should cut their losses and go. Get a Merc engine and fight for 6th/7th and on the rare occasion a podium. They should set themselves up as an ideal alternative for Renault if Red Bull keep acting up

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 9:51 pm 
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On the one hand, I completely understand Brown's stance here. Honda has been beyond a letdown, and McLaren is (in my opinion) well within their rights to end the relationship: Honda may not be in any breach of contract, but there's certainly a breach of expectations/promises going on.

However, I'm concerned as a McLaren fan that ending the relationship is the end of McLaren as a top team. Right now you wouldn't know it to look at the results, but as the top (and, for now, only) Honda team, McLaren is one of the big teams. But if they leave Honda, they're just another customer, and this isn't a very customer-friendly era...

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 07, 2017 11:04 pm 
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All this is just bluster from Mclaren they cant go anywhere apart from engines Honda is pouring money into the team, they pay Alonso's wages Mclaren dont have a title sponsor!


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 1:09 am 
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Exediron wrote:
On the one hand, I completely understand Brown's stance here. Honda has been beyond a letdown, and McLaren is (in my opinion) well within their rights to end the relationship: Honda may not be in any breach of contract, but there's certainly a breach of expectations/promises going on.

However, I'm concerned as a McLaren fan that ending the relationship is the end of McLaren as a top team. Right now you wouldn't know it to look at the results, but as the top (and, for now, only) Honda team, McLaren is one of the big teams. But if they leave Honda, they're just another customer, and this isn't a very customer-friendly era...

Maybe McLaren are playing the long game. It's quite likely Liberty want to ditch the hybrids. Being a Merc customer might not be so bad if that comes to pass

In the meantime they could use Merc engines to work their way back up to 4th/5th in the WCC and add a few well-needed sponsors

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 4:49 am 
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The divorce has been long overdue. It's time to finalize it. Let's face it; Honda is not going to get better any time soon. That has been painfully obvious since preseason testing really. By the time Honda finally catches up the current engine regulations will likely have expired.
Mclaren is truly better off with a Mercedes or even a Renault power unit. Contrary to popular belief I don't see it as impossible to win with a customer engine. I just think the main reason it hasn't happened in the current era has to do mainly with budget. None of the current Mercedes customer teams have the budget or resources necessary to beat the works team. Redbull were relatively close last year with an underpowered Renault engine. The people at Mclaren cannot be all stupid. Ditching honda is the right thing to do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:06 am 
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I think the original decision to go with Honda was worth a try. Obviously retrospectively, it's been a nightmare, but had Honda delivered something that was even vaguely close to Mercedes, it would've justified McLaren's decision. However, it's clear that right now, Honda are just not able to get it right at all, and whether/when they can actually get it right is a complete unknown. I still think they eventually will but McLaren can't keep waiting around, going into each season with the hope that their engine supplier will finally deliver what has been expected.

One thing I'll add: I don't think Ron Dennis, or whoever it was that ultimately vetoed Honda supplying a second team, did them any favours. I'm not saying that supplying a second team would've fixed all the issues, but it would've at least given them twice as much track time, data, and opportunity to solve the problems they've got. That they are finally supplying another team next year would've helped accelerate their progress a little, but it might be that it all comes too late for McLaren to benefit from.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 10:48 am 
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these engines are far too complicated , and are not helping F1
what is the point of them -are they going in road cars? , or isn't the future electric , and I know about the E series so that area may be covered already , but get modern v8's and v10's back in F1 for the smell the noise the price and then we could see more cars in F1, because the way its going will give us smaller grids


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 12:42 pm 
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honda will be competetive in the end. unfortunately it wont be until the day before these engines are scrapped and new louder cheaper ones come in. whenever that might be. and then they will either leave or we will have a continuous sense of deja vu for the next 6 years after that.

at the moment they are just a terrible terrible company. everything they do seems to be poor or average. i think we might find the current engine in a future lawnmower. and if it wasnt for marc marquez....
been watching (on tv) the tt races this week and guess what any honda has been appalling. maybe they have taken a leaf out of peugeots recent book and realised they can make bad stuff and still make plenty of profit.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:17 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
All this is just bluster from Mclaren they cant go anywhere apart from engines Honda is pouring money into the team, they pay Alonso's wages Mclaren dont have a title sponsor!

I lean towards this being smoke in mirrors for all the reasons you stated. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear McLaren rip off the band-aide ultra-quick and move on to a different supplier. The more interesting aspect of this is that with Liberty Media pushing to kill off these astronomically expensive PU's, whomever is still with Honda might end up with a beast of an Engine. For the 2009 season a great deal of development went into the car that ultimately became the BGP001 but Honda had another smaller facility working on further refining and implementing new developments for their V8 which was already a really good engine.

Perhaps it is possible that if the decision is made to go with N/A engines that Honda may be able to get back on the same level as Renault and Mercedes, and less we forget that a reversion to N/A might entice Cosworth to get back into the mix. Their last stint in F1 with the V8's wasn't impressive, but then again, their engines were mounted in the backs of lesser cars on cash strapped teams, Williams being one of those, but using Williams to assess how good they were, they also ran Toyota engines and did not better and the Toyota engines were really solid engines.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn this 90-day threat is really a means to get Honda to do better in the short term.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 2:31 pm 
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F1 MERCENARY wrote:
Rockie wrote:
All this is just bluster from Mclaren they cant go anywhere apart from engines Honda is pouring money into the team, they pay Alonso's wages Mclaren dont have a title sponsor!

I lean towards this being smoke in mirrors for all the reasons you stated. However, I wouldn't be at all surprised to hear McLaren rip off the band-aide ultra-quick and move on to a different supplier. The more interesting aspect of this is that with Liberty Media pushing to kill off these astronomically expensive PU's, whomever is still with Honda might end up with a beast of an Engine. For the 2009 season a great deal of development went into the car that ultimately became the BGP001 but Honda had another smaller facility working on further refining and implementing new developments for their V8 which was already a really good engine.

Perhaps it is possible that if the decision is made to go with N/A engines that Honda may be able to get back on the same level as Renault and Mercedes, and less we forget that a reversion to N/A might entice Cosworth to get back into the mix. Their last stint in F1 with the V8's wasn't impressive, but then again, their engines were mounted in the backs of lesser cars on cash strapped teams, Williams being one of those, but using Williams to assess how good they were, they also ran Toyota engines and did not better and the Toyota engines were really solid engines.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn this 90-day threat is really a means to get Honda to do better in the short term.

I don't see N/A being on the cards, tbh. I strongly suspect the most that would happen is to get rid of the MGU as the most expensive component and probably go with (twin) turbos, possibly with a energy recovery component of some kind but not at the level it is today.

I don't think this is just bluster. I think McLaren are caught between a rock and a very hard place. It's not as though Honda are even slowly improving, but if anything look worse than they have at any point since the beginning of their participation in the hybrid era. And with the latest update being postponed, there's not an awful lot of confidence that things will improve any time soon. The situation is beyond dire.

Clearly, 2017 is already (yet another) write-off. But unlike previous years, when there was some optimism that they were on a learning curve and things would improve, there is a very real possibility now that Honda may never get it right, and that's pretty scary. And if McLaren want to do any kind of racing next year they will probably need to make a decision on engine supply by the end of this summer if they want to take full advantage of packaging benefits with whichever unit they choose.

Either way, things look pretty bleak. Stay with Honda and watch the team wither away (and probably lose key personnel), or become a customer and face the prospect of being a perennial also-ran. There's no real silver lining in this for the team and I think it's desperately sad to see a once proud team like McLaren suffer so badly due to events wholly beyond their own control.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 3:02 pm 
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I suppose it would mean Honda could then have unlimited testing, so if another supplier would either let them finish the year, or carry until the new engine specs, it would not be so bad.

But then, Who will supply? Not only is it messing them about, but doing so to allow Honda to come back strong and take points from them.
Appart from which, if they know Mclaren are swapping back, they are not going to be very forthcoming, as with Merc in their last year with them

Thinking on it, which engine will benefit from supplying Mclaren anyway? Ferrari, is not going to, are they.
Renault are stretched as it is and Merc are OK right now thanks. There would be no mutual exchange as they would be known to be going to the competition soon


I know one will be 'allocated' if they are without, but is this only for full years? and does it have to be the current spec?
Even if both are OK, there is then the fuel problem. Mclaren have just signed a multi-year deal with Castrol, so any tailored fuels would have to be developed.

No, I say no way CAN Mclaren dump Honda and survive.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:17 pm 
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I fear as luck may have it, especially with mclaren and alonso, Honda improve next year, RBR sign up for 2019, and dominate for years to come. All on the back of mclarens sweat and tears.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 8:53 pm 
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AravJ wrote:
I fear as luck may have it, especially with mclaren and alonso, Honda improve next year, RBR sign up for 2019, and dominate for years to come. All on the back of mclarens sweat and tears.


It certainly wouldn't surprise me if they nailed the next engine regs with proper lead up. There was some talk it will be a 2.2ltr V6 Twin Turbo with standard KERS which they currently have an excellent version of (without the KERS) in IndyCar.

They also wouldn't be trying to build new centres and infrastructure(Sakura,Milton Keynes) at the same time as having a recruitment drive of young inexperienced engineers which is what they've done over the past 3 years which can't have helped but isn't a problem anymore moving forward.

Also you would think the ceiling performance wise is closing in with these regs for Mercedes and Ferrari so it wouldn't surprise me if by 2019 Honda were at least closer to them pair than Renault are currently, so it could work out nicely for Red Bull or whoever gets the gig 2019 onwards.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 08, 2017 9:01 pm 
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What would be nice, but the lead up time would be too long for this series of engines, would be if Red Bull and Mclaren teamed up to fund an independent maker with agreement to get identical engines.

250 million is easily doable with these two giants funding it. There are at least 2 other teams that may want in too.

However, where they find the technology to get off the ground may be a problem that stops it ever happing.
If it is ever going to, it has to be for the next engine spec and they have to have an input to it


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 9:14 am 
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Honda will deliver on the engine side, even maybe as soon as 2-3 races, i'm not sure mclaren want to wait on this.

The fact the upgrade did not come, is not really that bad. If they were at the end of their ideas, they would have released the engine this weekend.

so i wouldn't worry that much.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:08 am 
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paul_gmb wrote:
Honda will deliver on the engine side, even maybe as soon as 2-3 races, i'm not sure mclaren want to wait on this.

The fact the upgrade did not come, is not really that bad. If they were at the end of their ideas, they would have released the engine this weekend.

so i wouldn't worry that much.

I'm afraid I don't understand this post at all.

Don't worry? It's not that bad? In what universe?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 10:38 am 
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Zoue wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Honda will deliver on the engine side, even maybe as soon as 2-3 races, i'm not sure mclaren want to wait on this.

The fact the upgrade did not come, is not really that bad. If they were at the end of their ideas, they would have released the engine this weekend.

so i wouldn't worry that much.

I'm afraid I don't understand this post at all.

Don't worry? It's not that bad? In what universe?


Sadly some people still hold out on faith. It's like believing in god when you've witnessed nothing but the worst of human kind for years. Faith isn't going to save McLaren.

They won't deliver. They still have to make up over a second to compete at the front which is not going to happen in a few months.

Not to mention the other part of their major problem - reliability. What's the point on qualifying first, being first for ten laps and BAM engine blows up. Repeat for the next race and the one after that.

Many of us saw the mess that McLaren are in now, why? because many of us have been watching F1 long enough to know that a car 3 seconds a lap slower on race 1 isn't going to make that up in the season. Instead you watch testing.

Testing every year has shown McLaren to be back at the pack. This year is the best they've been and they are just squeezing in to the top 10. Many of us said that at the start of the season that they are fighting for scraps. They've gone from being back at the back to fighting for the scraps with severe unreliability problems. Going to recover 1 second in the next 2-3 races? Not going to happen. Going to improve their reliability in the next 2-3 races? Possibility but unlikely.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 11:41 am 
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We all are aware that McLaren have given a deadline till Spa to Honda.

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport (Bild newspaper), McLaren will only wait for 2 races before heading for a divorce.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36641.html

This is the same publication that was the 1st one to report that Force India were going to turn Pink with a new sponsorship.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:50 pm 
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For the last two years the McLaren race team have attempted to placate Japanese sense of honor by handling them with respect and white gloves. But the race team answers to the board of governors, who are charged with the overall health of the entire organization. And this had to happen eventually, they demand improvement. This reminds me a lot of the 1995 Ferrari team, they got their marching orders from their board of governors, sacked their culture and brought in Schumacher and the rest of his dream team. Of course it took five years, but eventually Ferrari turned a pathetic team of the mid 90's into a juggernaut.

Make no mistake the racing organization got their orders, and they can no longer placate anyone, they have taken off the pretty white gloves and put on brass knuckles in their dealings with Honda. No more excuses, no more patience, no more "it will be better next year" crap. You are our engine manufacturer, give us a competitive engine NOW or go *#&^% yourselves.

And now, big news this morning, Alonso has thrown a few hundred gallons of gas into the bonfire by announcing that unless McLaren-Honda deliver a sincerely competitive car/engine package before the end of the season, he's probably walking away from the team.

http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/354216/if-we-win-by-september-i-will-stay-alonso/

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:51 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
We all are aware that McLaren have given a deadline till Spa to Honda.

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport (Bild newspaper), McLaren will only wait for 2 races before heading for a divorce.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36641.html

This is the same publication that was the 1st one to report that Force India were going to turn Pink with a new sponsorship.



But where will they go?

Burning bridges is ok if you are heading some place. Mclaren are not.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 1:58 pm 
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moby wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
We all are aware that McLaren have given a deadline till Spa to Honda.

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport (Bild newspaper), McLaren will only wait for 2 races before heading for a divorce.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36641.html

This is the same publication that was the 1st one to report that Force India were going to turn Pink with a new sponsorship.



But where will they go?

Burning bridges is ok if you are heading some place. Mclaren are not.


After three years McLaren and Honda have gone nowhere. Zilch, no improvement, no wins, no titles, nothing but embarrassing failure after failure. Just like a spouse fleeing a very abusive relationship, it isn't about where you plan to go, it's only about getting out of a very bad relationship. Because right now, the only way to go is up. IMO McLaren have hit rock bottom.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:14 pm 
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Whatever happens from here going forward, Mclaren as a team is finished for a while!


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 3:55 pm 
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Rockie wrote:
Whatever happens from here going forward, Mclaren as a team is finished for a while!


How can you be finished for a while?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 4:13 pm 
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Blinky McSquinty wrote:
moby wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
We all are aware that McLaren have given a deadline till Spa to Honda.

But according to Germany's Auto Motor und Sport (Bild newspaper), McLaren will only wait for 2 races before heading for a divorce.
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36641.html

This is the same publication that was the 1st one to report that Force India were going to turn Pink with a new sponsorship.


But where will they go?

Burning bridges is ok if you are heading some place. Mclaren are not.


After three years McLaren and Honda have gone nowhere. Zilch, no improvement, no wins, no titles, nothing but embarrassing failure after failure. Just like a spouse fleeing a very abusive relationship, it isn't about where you plan to go, it's only about getting out of a very bad relationship. Because right now, the only way to go is up. IMO McLaren have hit rock bottom.


I doubt that McLaren has lost their chassis building skills. It's much more probable that Honda has not mastered the new 6-part power unit. I wouldn't compare this to an abusive relationship because I doubt that Honda is doing anything less than trying their best. It is just very difficult to keep up with other teams. McLaren's troubles are a product of the current rules that stipulate that you either build your own works engine, in which case it's all up to you, or you rely on an external company that, implicitly, does not have the same level of dedication. It's now up to McLaren to decide whether they want to invest in their own engine (unlikely) or switch suppliers (quite likely).


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 5:50 pm 
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Teddy007 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
Honda will deliver on the engine side, even maybe as soon as 2-3 races, i'm not sure mclaren want to wait on this.

The fact the upgrade did not come, is not really that bad. If they were at the end of their ideas, they would have released the engine this weekend.

so i wouldn't worry that much.

I'm afraid I don't understand this post at all.

Don't worry? It's not that bad? In what universe?


Sadly some people still hold out on faith. It's like believing in god when you've witnessed nothing but the worst of human kind for years. Faith isn't going to save McLaren.

They won't deliver. They still have to make up over a second to compete at the front which is not going to happen in a few months.

Not to mention the other part of their major problem - reliability. What's the point on qualifying first, being first for ten laps and BAM engine blows up. Repeat for the next race and the one after that.

Many of us saw the mess that McLaren are in now, why? because many of us have been watching F1 long enough to know that a car 3 seconds a lap slower on race 1 isn't going to make that up in the season. Instead you watch testing.

Testing every year has shown McLaren to be back at the pack. This year is the best they've been and they are just squeezing in to the top 10. Many of us said that at the start of the season that they are fighting for scraps. They've gone from being back at the back to fighting for the scraps with severe unreliability problems. Going to recover 1 second in the next 2-3 races? Not going to happen. Going to improve their reliability in the next 2-3 races? Possibility but unlikely.


I remember the mid 90"s with Merc, things weren't as rosy.

I support Alonso way more than MCLAREN, still, I think that a major manufacturer will help them than being a customer team. Who knows, maybe i'm old fashioned, but getting everything right, takes some time.

I'm not saying they will, but it can take longer than expected.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 6:02 pm 
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paul_gmb wrote:
[I'm not saying they will, but it can take longer than expected.


Historically, a team with resources that decide to rebuild the team take 4 to 5 years before their long range plans come to fruition. When Ferrari decided to shelve the old culture and hired the dream team with Schumacher, it took five years before titles started coming. With Renault, four. Red Bull also fit within this framework, as well as Mercedes. In the case of Renault, Red Bull, and Mercedes, they bought a team and started over again. But the pattern is obvious.

Unless Honda can produce something very soon, McLaren really have no choice but to reboot, once again.

Image
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/6e/St%C3%B6wer_Titanic.jpg

The parent company has diversified into many different fields, and make good money from those ventures. But their reputation and core business is Formula One, that is the fuel that powers the company. The board of governors cannot sit on their hands anymore, they must make changes, and force things into going the right direction.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:12 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
On the one hand, I completely understand Brown's stance here. Honda has been beyond a letdown, and McLaren is (in my opinion) well within their rights to end the relationship: Honda may not be in any breach of contract, but there's certainly a breach of expectations/promises going on.

However, I'm concerned as a McLaren fan that ending the relationship is the end of McLaren as a top team. Right now you wouldn't know it to look at the results, but as the top (and, for now, only) Honda team, McLaren is one of the big teams. But if they leave Honda, they're just another customer, and this isn't a very customer-friendly era...


On which planet is McLaren a top team? People should really stop repeating that over and over.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:20 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
On the one hand, I completely understand Brown's stance here. Honda has been beyond a letdown, and McLaren is (in my opinion) well within their rights to end the relationship: Honda may not be in any breach of contract, but there's certainly a breach of expectations/promises going on.

However, I'm concerned as a McLaren fan that ending the relationship is the end of McLaren as a top team. Right now you wouldn't know it to look at the results, but as the top (and, for now, only) Honda team, McLaren is one of the big teams. But if they leave Honda, they're just another customer, and this isn't a very customer-friendly era...


On which planet is McLaren a top team? People should really stop repeating that over and over.

On this planet. They've been a top team for decades and it's only the PU dragging them down to the bottom of the grid that has apparently made people forget that


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:30 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
On the one hand, I completely understand Brown's stance here. Honda has been beyond a letdown, and McLaren is (in my opinion) well within their rights to end the relationship: Honda may not be in any breach of contract, but there's certainly a breach of expectations/promises going on.

However, I'm concerned as a McLaren fan that ending the relationship is the end of McLaren as a top team. Right now you wouldn't know it to look at the results, but as the top (and, for now, only) Honda team, McLaren is one of the big teams. But if they leave Honda, they're just another customer, and this isn't a very customer-friendly era...


On which planet is McLaren a top team? People should really stop repeating that over and over.


Earth.

Resources/Drivers*/Technical Department/Facilities/Fanbase/Media Coverage all in the same ballpark as the other top teams.

Their engine has sucked badly in an engine formula though so they've been hamstrung for 3 years and their results plummeted. It can happen.


*Jury's out on Stoff at the minute admittedly but the other two are WDC's.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 09, 2017 7:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Exediron wrote:
On the one hand, I completely understand Brown's stance here. Honda has been beyond a letdown, and McLaren is (in my opinion) well within their rights to end the relationship: Honda may not be in any breach of contract, but there's certainly a breach of expectations/promises going on.

However, I'm concerned as a McLaren fan that ending the relationship is the end of McLaren as a top team. Right now you wouldn't know it to look at the results, but as the top (and, for now, only) Honda team, McLaren is one of the big teams. But if they leave Honda, they're just another customer, and this isn't a very customer-friendly era...


On which planet is McLaren a top team? People should really stop repeating that over and over.

On this planet. They've been a top team for decades and it's only the PU dragging them down to the bottom of the grid that has apparently made people forget that


Top team that's at the bottom. Some definition of "top".


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