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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 12:57 pm 
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If Alonso does leave Mclaren then who will his replacement be? Perez? Sainz?


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:01 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
This could mean Alonso no more in F1 in 2018?

A move to Williams seems ridiculous.

This is probably why Alonso is putting pressure on McLaren to ditch Honda otherwise he has to bite the bullet for 2018.

What I mean by biting the bullet is that if he leaves McLaren then he may need a stop gap solution which involves a pay cut, McLaren are the only team that will pay him big wages.

I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren for his time

First of all what would you determine as being a good car?


A car that reaches the chequered flag....
A car whose DRS allows overtakes on the straights...
A car that has components that last for a few race weekends....

I think perhaps Alonso has higher ideals than that, cars such as the STR and Haas would meet that agenda.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:02 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If Alonso does leave Mclaren then who will his replacement be? Perez? Sainz?


If McLaren are still tied with Honda, I don't know what kind of driver would be patient enough to be there.

Maybe Lando Norris?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:03 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
If Alonso does leave Mclaren then who will his replacement be? Perez? Sainz?

I can't see them taking Perez back, Sainz would be a possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:05 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Alonso does leave Mclaren then who will his replacement be? Perez? Sainz?


If McLaren are still tied with Honda, I don't know what kind of driver would be patient enough to be there.

Maybe Lando Norris?

I think the driver line up would be perhaps too inexperienced for them to go that route?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:07 pm 
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The top 3 teams weren't kept in the picture when stating those clauses as the seats are full.

4th downwards, all do except McLaren & Sauber. The only issue is he wants to win races & apart from the top 3 teams, none have a realistic chance for a win. Either he sacrifices his pay & joins a team or leaves F1. I don't see him sticking with McLaren as they've got no option but to be with Honda.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:07 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Alonso does leave Mclaren then who will his replacement be? Perez? Sainz?

I can't see them taking Perez back, Sainz would be a possibility.


Will McLaren pay 8 million for Sainz?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Just bring back JB to partner Stoff until Lando is ready and problem solved.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:25 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
If Alonso does leave Mclaren then who will his replacement be? Perez? Sainz?

I can't see them taking Perez back, Sainz would be a possibility.


Will McLaren pay 8 million for Sainz?

Well that's partially would Honda pay and why not that would be a fraction of what they are paying Alonso.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:28 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Just bring back JB to partner Stoff until Lando is ready and problem solved.

JB is gone for good after that Monaco race

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:30 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Just bring back JB to partner Stoff until Lando is ready and problem solved.

They would have to pay Button a sizeable retainer otherwise why would he want to drive a McLaren Honda?

But yes that would be a viable solution in the short term.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are not ruling a change to their driver line-up for 2018:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37198.html

Perez's contract not yet signed could provide relief to him as I can't see him gel again with Ocon for 2018. He could go to Williams or Renault.

Would Wehrlein come to FI or if Perez goes to Williams or Renault, would FI be bold enough to try luring Alonso?

Perez turned down Renault last season because he was holding out for a Ferrari seat, I think he has to be thinking now that the Ferrari ship has sailed for him, if the Renault seat is available for him again I think this time he will take it, he can see how much they have improved and they are a factory team with better resources than Force India.

Perez going to Renault then solves the Wehrlein problem for Mercedes, I think it's nailed on that he would go to Force India.

Regarding Alonso Force India can't afford him plus would Alonso want to drive for a under financed midfield team?


Poker, recently You must've read articles were Alonso stated that he feels his stock has been at its highest due to the offers he's received. 60% of those he has declined whereas 40% are still on the table. I'm wondering if Force India also has made an offer. Do keep in mind, Perez was expecting his contract to be ready by Belgium but still it's not been finalised.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:36 pm 
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UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are not ruling a change to their driver line-up for 2018:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37198.html

Perez's contract not yet signed could provide relief to him as I can't see him gel again with Ocon for 2018. He could go to Williams or Renault.

Would Wehrlein come to FI or if Perez goes to Williams or Renault, would FI be bold enough to try luring Alonso?

Perez turned down Renault last season because he was holding out for a Ferrari seat, I think he has to be thinking now that the Ferrari ship has sailed for him, if the Renault seat is available for him again I think this time he will take it, he can see how much they have improved and they are a factory team with better resources than Force India.

Perez going to Renault then solves the Wehrlein problem for Mercedes, I think it's nailed on that he would go to Force India.

Regarding Alonso Force India can't afford him plus would Alonso want to drive for a under financed midfield team?


Poker, recently You must've read articles were Alonso stated that he feels his stock has been at its highest due to the offers he's received. 60% of those he has declined whereas 40% are still on the table. I'm wondering if Force India also has made an offer. Do keep in mind, Perez was expecting his contract to be ready by Belgium but still it's not been finalised.

I've not read the articles but I know that Alonso has also said that he decides whom he chooses to race for almost like he has free choice.

I take what Alonso says with a pinch of salt, he always likes to make believe he holds all the cards but seems to end up with a busted flush.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:46 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Force India are not ruling a change to their driver line-up for 2018:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns37198.html

Perez's contract not yet signed could provide relief to him as I can't see him gel again with Ocon for 2018. He could go to Williams or Renault.

Would Wehrlein come to FI or if Perez goes to Williams or Renault, would FI be bold enough to try luring Alonso?

Perez turned down Renault last season because he was holding out for a Ferrari seat, I think he has to be thinking now that the Ferrari ship has sailed for him, if the Renault seat is available for him again I think this time he will take it, he can see how much they have improved and they are a factory team with better resources than Force India.

Perez going to Renault then solves the Wehrlein problem for Mercedes, I think it's nailed on that he would go to Force India.

Regarding Alonso Force India can't afford him plus would Alonso want to drive for a under financed midfield team?


Poker, recently You must've read articles were Alonso stated that he feels his stock has been at its highest due to the offers he's received. 60% of those he has declined whereas 40% are still on the table. I'm wondering if Force India also has made an offer. Do keep in mind, Perez was expecting his contract to be ready by Belgium but still it's not been finalised.

I've not read the articles but I know that Alonso has also said that he decides whom he chooses to race for almost like he has free choice.

I take what Alonso says with a pinch of salt, he always likes to make believe he holds all the cards but seems to end up with a busted flush.


Fully agree with you. I do not for a second believe he holds the cards. Sure, he might have a pick of the midfield bunch... But if he really could go where he wanted to go, he would already be at Mercedes, Ferrari or RBR. Quod non.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:29 am 
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alon ... ul-946433/

May not be the whole truth but it seems as though Renault are not interested in Alonso next year due to concerns of only furthering his frustration if they aren't contenders yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
Zoue wrote:
seems like Renault aren't too confident in themselves, either. Looks like they are ruling out Alonso for next year:

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/alonso-renault-return-too-early-abiteboul-946433/


This could mean Alonso no more in F1 in 2018?

A move to Williams seems ridiculous.

This is probably why Alonso is putting pressure on McLaren to ditch Honda otherwise he has to bite the bullet for 2018.

What I mean by biting the bullet is that if he leaves McLaren then he may need a stop gap solution which involves a pay cut, McLaren are the only team that will pay him big wages.

I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren for his time

First of all what would you determine as being a good car?

I'd call Merc, Ferrari and (despite their reliability issues) Red Bull great cars. I'd call Force India and (lately) Renault good cars. Williams, Toro Rosso and Haas are so-so. And then you've got McLaren and Sauber

Williams are a funny one. They started the season right up there, 4th best car in my book. They've slipped back something terrible. A complete role reversal with Renault

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:12 am 
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Renault have a lot more potential than Force India when it comes to development.

The reason Renault (Hulk) was ahead of both Force India cars in Spa was because FI had opted for a low downforce setup which made sector 2 (the most technical part of the track) their Achilles heel as they lost about a second to Hulk per lap. FI cars did gain about 6 or 7 tenths in the 1st & 3rd sectors. However, FI will be untouchable by Renault in Monza. FI are also getting a big upgrade in Singapore.

Renault should however grow substantially in 2018. If not Renault, considering Williams would be another frustrating move for Alonso. For Alonso, it looks either Renault (which lately they have denied being interested in him) or Indycar!

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:26 am 
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According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 9:51 am 
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With Ferrari keeping both its drivers for 2018, I don't think we will see a lot of movement in the field, especially not in the 3 big teams.

Hamilton has a contract with Merc for next year, and I've heard (TV coverage) they are keen on keeping Bottas, the only point of discussion being the duration of the contract, with Merc wanting a one year deal, while Bottas wanting a multi-year contract.

Most probably, the 2 RBR drivers will also stay put.

At Renault, i think (hope) they'll get Kubica for next year.

So this would only leave 2 options for Alonso: staying at McLaren or going to Williams on a 1-year deal in the hope of getting to one of the big teams for '19. I chose Williams and not FI because of the budget (Stroll Sr. would have the money to support Alonso's wage, while FI might not). Also, about Williams, in the TV coverage in my country they mentioned some rumors linking Williams with a possible entry of Porsche in F1, but only from the next regulation change in 2021 (maybe just another VAG to F1 rumor, but who knows?).

Force India are in somewhat a tricky situation. They have 2 good drivers, but they don't seem to get along, so they might want to change for next year, but which one of them would they change and with who? I don't see Wehrlein there. If they wanted Wehrlein they would have taken him for '17 already.

At Toro Rosso, if Sainz stays, they'll probably change Kvyat with Gasly. If not, they'll keep Kvyat and bring Gasly.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 10:23 am 
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paul85 wrote:
Stroll Sr. would have the money to support Alonso's wage.


They need that money for development though. If he goes there, I can't imagine he will get anywhere near the wage he does now.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 11:13 am 
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Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications


Amazing quote from that article:

In the aftermath of his frustrating race in Belgium, Alonso quite succinctly summed up exactly what he wants for 2018.

“There needs to be one change only,” he said.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:12 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
UnlikeUday wrote:
This could mean Alonso no more in F1 in 2018?

A move to Williams seems ridiculous.

This is probably why Alonso is putting pressure on McLaren to ditch Honda otherwise he has to bite the bullet for 2018.

What I mean by biting the bullet is that if he leaves McLaren then he may need a stop gap solution which involves a pay cut, McLaren are the only team that will pay him big wages.

I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren for his time

First of all what would you determine as being a good car?

I'd call Merc, Ferrari and (despite their reliability issues) Red Bull great cars. I'd call Force India and (lately) Renault good cars. Williams, Toro Rosso and Haas are so-so. And then you've got McLaren and Sauber

Williams are a funny one. They started the season right up there, 4th best car in my book. They've slipped back something terrible. A complete role reversal with Renault

Read the Renault article just above your post and they say that they would not sign Alonso for fear of him getting frustrated with them not having a top car, I guess this then creates a negative energy within the team, also let's not forget that given the parameters you give for what a good car is, Alonso basically walked away from a good car in 2014.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications

I wonder how this is a failure of the hybrid era when manufacturers left in droves during the last engine era and some of the few that were left threatened to leave unless the engine rules were changed?

Is not F1 a competition for all concerned including engine manufacturers?

On the plus side a Mercedes Renault collaboration gets them closer to the pointy end of the grid however I'm wondering how do they finance a competitive car and Alonso's wages?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 12:52 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
This is probably why Alonso is putting pressure on McLaren to ditch Honda otherwise he has to bite the bullet for 2018.

What I mean by biting the bullet is that if he leaves McLaren then he may need a stop gap solution which involves a pay cut, McLaren are the only team that will pay him big wages.

I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren for his time

First of all what would you determine as being a good car?

I'd call Merc, Ferrari and (despite their reliability issues) Red Bull great cars. I'd call Force India and (lately) Renault good cars. Williams, Toro Rosso and Haas are so-so. And then you've got McLaren and Sauber

Williams are a funny one. They started the season right up there, 4th best car in my book. They've slipped back something terrible. A complete role reversal with Renault

Read the Renault article just above your post and they say that they would not sign Alonso for fear of him getting frustrated with them not having a top car, I guess this then creates a negative energy within the team, also let's not forget that given the parameters you give for what a good car is, Alonso basically walked away from a good car in 2014.

None of that is relevant to my post

Alonso walked away from a bunch of underachievers but found to his detriment that his new team turned out to be an historically bad bunch of underachievers

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:07 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I think he would drive a good car for a fraction of what he's charging McLaren for his time

First of all what would you determine as being a good car?

I'd call Merc, Ferrari and (despite their reliability issues) Red Bull great cars. I'd call Force India and (lately) Renault good cars. Williams, Toro Rosso and Haas are so-so. And then you've got McLaren and Sauber

Williams are a funny one. They started the season right up there, 4th best car in my book. They've slipped back something terrible. A complete role reversal with Renault

Read the Renault article just above your post and they say that they would not sign Alonso for fear of him getting frustrated with them not having a top car, I guess this then creates a negative energy within the team, also let's not forget that given the parameters you give for what a good car is, Alonso basically walked away from a good car in 2014.

None of that is relevant to my post

Alonso walked away from a bunch of underachievers but found to his detriment that his new team turned out to be an historically bad bunch of underachievers

So what have Renault or Force India achieved that would meet Alonso's standards?

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:21 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications

I wonder how this is a failure of the hybrid era when manufacturers left in droves during the last engine era and some of the few that were left threatened to leave unless the engine rules were changed?

Is not F1 a competition for all concerned including engine manufacturers?

On the plus side a Mercedes Renault collaboration gets them closer to the pointy end of the grid however I'm wondering how do they finance a competitive car and Alonso's wages?

It's a failure because it effectively shuts the door on new entrants. There is always a risk/reward balance, but with the hybrids the risk greatly outweighs the rewards. No manufacturer in their right minds would dip a toe in the water having looked at the Honda experience, therefore it raises questions as to whether there will ever be any additional entrants while the rules remain as rigid and inflexible as they are. F1 has become a closed shop, more than ever before.

It is a competition for engine manufacturers, too, yes. But one with a set of rules that virtually guarantees any new entrant will start at an enormous, some might say insurmountable, disadvantage. The idiotic ban on testing, especially when introducing such new and untried technology, has seen to that. I can't think of any other sport where the rules are so heavily weighted against any new participants.

The last era was a different set of circumstances. Manufacturers didn't leave because they couldn't produce good enough engines. E.G. both BMW and Honda were considered powerful enough engines in their own right, let down by the chassis they were in. They left partly for financial reasons, but also largely because the restricted (i.e. zero) development opportunities afforded the V8s were not something they felt offered any incentive to stay. From memory I can't remember any manufacturer producing a dud of an engine in the years prior to the hybrids' introduction, although without checking the stats I can't be completely sure. Whereas now we have 50% of the manufacturers struggling to match the others, with one of them - the only newcomer - looking to possibly exit in abject failure.

Regarding McLaren-Renault, which I assume you meant(!), I'm guessing the Bahrainis at this point will likely be pouring money into the project, rather than stand seeing the company fail. I have my doubts that finances will be a true stumbling block, as much as losing the Honda money will undoubtedly hurt. If they are confident they can get back to winning ways, they may feel the investment is worth it to eventually get better prize money etc.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:35 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications

I wonder how this is a failure of the hybrid era when manufacturers left in droves during the last engine era and some of the few that were left threatened to leave unless the engine rules were changed?

Is not F1 a competition for all concerned including engine manufacturers?

On the plus side a Mercedes Renault collaboration gets them closer to the pointy end of the grid however I'm wondering how do they finance a competitive car and Alonso's wages?

It's a failure because it effectively shuts the door on new entrants. There is always a risk/reward balance, but with the hybrids the risk greatly outweighs the rewards. No manufacturer in their right minds would dip a toe in the water having looked at the Honda experience, therefore it raises questions as to whether there will ever be any additional entrants while the rules remain as rigid and inflexible as they are. F1 has become a closed shop, more than ever before.

It is a competition for engine manufacturers, too, yes. But one with a set of rules that virtually guarantees any new entrant will start at an enormous, some might say insurmountable, disadvantage. The idiotic ban on testing, especially when introducing such new and untried technology, has seen to that. I can't think of any other sport where the rules are so heavily weighted against any new participants.

The last era was a different set of circumstances. Manufacturers didn't leave because they couldn't produce good enough engines. E.G. both BMW and Honda were considered powerful enough engines in their own right, let down by the chassis they were in. They left partly for financial reasons, but also largely because the restricted (i.e. zero) development opportunities afforded the V8s were not something they felt offered any incentive to stay. From memory I can't remember any manufacturer producing a dud of an engine in the years prior to the hybrids' introduction, although without checking the stats I can't be completely sure. Whereas now we have 50% of the manufacturers struggling to match the others, with one of them - the only newcomer - looking to possibly exit in abject failure.

Regarding McLaren-Renault, which I assume you meant(!), I'm guessing the Bahrainis at this point will likely be pouring money into the project, rather than stand seeing the company fail. I have my doubts that finances will be a true stumbling block, as much as losing the Honda money will undoubtedly hurt. If they are confident they can get back to winning ways, they may feel the investment is worth it to eventually get better prize money etc.

We are never going to agree about engines and it's hard to produce a dud of an engine if the engines are basically frozen in specification once they are reasonably competitive with one another and of course Renault were able to ask for a performance tweak to bring them up to speed, that's not any kind of competition, you might as well have one engine builder supplying all the field, however more so because of Ferrari that would be impractical.

Regarding McLaren I hope you are right because it gets both themselves and Alonso much closer to the pointy end of the grid.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:43 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
According to this article, McLaren have already decided to split from Honda and sign with Renault. They no longer have faith things will turn around. All that remains is how the divorce will take place: will it be amicable, or will it be tied up in the courts for years? Honda, apparently, are fighting tooth and nail to stay.

If this article is correct, then this would mean Alonso staying with McLaren for 2018. It would also mean only three manufacturers remaining in F1, which ultimately is a failure of the hybrid era. Lot of ramifications

I wonder how this is a failure of the hybrid era when manufacturers left in droves during the last engine era and some of the few that were left threatened to leave unless the engine rules were changed?

Is not F1 a competition for all concerned including engine manufacturers?

On the plus side a Mercedes Renault collaboration gets them closer to the pointy end of the grid however I'm wondering how do they finance a competitive car and Alonso's wages?

It's a failure because it effectively shuts the door on new entrants. There is always a risk/reward balance, but with the hybrids the risk greatly outweighs the rewards. No manufacturer in their right minds would dip a toe in the water having looked at the Honda experience, therefore it raises questions as to whether there will ever be any additional entrants while the rules remain as rigid and inflexible as they are. F1 has become a closed shop, more than ever before.

It is a competition for engine manufacturers, too, yes. But one with a set of rules that virtually guarantees any new entrant will start at an enormous, some might say insurmountable, disadvantage. The idiotic ban on testing, especially when introducing such new and untried technology, has seen to that. I can't think of any other sport where the rules are so heavily weighted against any new participants.

The last era was a different set of circumstances. Manufacturers didn't leave because they couldn't produce good enough engines. E.G. both BMW and Honda were considered powerful enough engines in their own right, let down by the chassis they were in. They left partly for financial reasons, but also largely because the restricted (i.e. zero) development opportunities afforded the V8s were not something they felt offered any incentive to stay. From memory I can't remember any manufacturer producing a dud of an engine in the years prior to the hybrids' introduction, although without checking the stats I can't be completely sure. Whereas now we have 50% of the manufacturers struggling to match the others, with one of them - the only newcomer - looking to possibly exit in abject failure.

Regarding McLaren-Renault, which I assume you meant(!), I'm guessing the Bahrainis at this point will likely be pouring money into the project, rather than stand seeing the company fail. I have my doubts that finances will be a true stumbling block, as much as losing the Honda money will undoubtedly hurt. If they are confident they can get back to winning ways, they may feel the investment is worth it to eventually get better prize money etc.

We are never going to agree about engines and it's hard to produce a dud of an engine if the engines are basically frozen in specification once they are reasonably competitive with one another and of course Renault were able to ask for a performance tweak to bring them up to speed, that's not any kind of competition, you might as well have one engine builder supplying all the field, however more so because of Ferrari that would be impractical.

Regarding McLaren I hope you are right because it gets both themselves and Alonso much closer to the pointy end of the grid.

Regarding your first paragraph, I agree that having everything frozen isn't any kind of competition, but the fact is that manufacturers weren't put off because they didn't want to look like fools. The current regulations make it difficult for manufacturers to justify taking the plunge. There's just too much risk for too little reward. You can't compare the last era to this one in that regard.

And just to be clear, here, this isn't about whether or not hybrids belong in F1, but about the regulations surrounding their introduction. All they have done is raise the barrier to entry. Unless a manufacturer gets it right at the very beginning, they are doomed to be forever also-rans.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 1:50 pm 
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If Aonso goes, could we see Lando Norris at Mclaren?
The price would be right, and until they are up there fighting with the top 3 the few tenths a top driver would bring are not really relevant.

A new young driver can be moulded into the (new) Mclaren form and not be as vocal ( or disruptive if you like) as Alonso, and as long as he is good enough to prove the Mclaren is competitive, pave the way to bring in a top driver the following year, or stick with him if he is good enough.

Not a lot to loose by trying him really


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 3:20 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
First of all what would you determine as being a good car?

I'd call Merc, Ferrari and (despite their reliability issues) Red Bull great cars. I'd call Force India and (lately) Renault good cars. Williams, Toro Rosso and Haas are so-so. And then you've got McLaren and Sauber

Williams are a funny one. They started the season right up there, 4th best car in my book. They've slipped back something terrible. A complete role reversal with Renault

Read the Renault article just above your post and they say that they would not sign Alonso for fear of him getting frustrated with them not having a top car, I guess this then creates a negative energy within the team, also let's not forget that given the parameters you give for what a good car is, Alonso basically walked away from a good car in 2014.

None of that is relevant to my post

Alonso walked away from a bunch of underachievers but found to his detriment that his new team turned out to be an historically bad bunch of underachievers

So what have Renault or Force India achieved that would meet Alonso's standards?

If he is seriously considering Williams then I don't see why he shouldn't consider Force India. Neither are up to his standards. But if he is that desperate to get out of McLaren then how could he charge them an arm and a leg knowing that they can't afford it?

Renault is a different kettle of fish. They've made massive improvements this year. And they still claim to be in rebuild mode. The potential is clear to see. He has won races any time he has been there, Renault have fought for titles every time they've entered as a constructor, etc. etc.
If the team aren't open to hiring him then it's all moot

I think he'd drive front running car for free

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:40 pm 
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If Renault are for sure not keeping him as an option for 2018, then Alonso has a lot of thinking to do.

If he still wants to be in a race winning car, he'll have to cross the border over to Indycar. If he wins there more often, I don't see him returning to F1. If he wants to still be in F1, then he could join Williams, Force India etc. for 1 year & pin his hopes for 2019 season.

It depends on his priority now.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I wonder how this is a failure of the hybrid era when manufacturers left in droves during the last engine era and some of the few that were left threatened to leave unless the engine rules were changed?

Is not F1 a competition for all concerned including engine manufacturers?

On the plus side a Mercedes Renault collaboration gets them closer to the pointy end of the grid however I'm wondering how do they finance a competitive car and Alonso's wages?

It's a failure because it effectively shuts the door on new entrants. There is always a risk/reward balance, but with the hybrids the risk greatly outweighs the rewards. No manufacturer in their right minds would dip a toe in the water having looked at the Honda experience, therefore it raises questions as to whether there will ever be any additional entrants while the rules remain as rigid and inflexible as they are. F1 has become a closed shop, more than ever before.

It is a competition for engine manufacturers, too, yes. But one with a set of rules that virtually guarantees any new entrant will start at an enormous, some might say insurmountable, disadvantage. The idiotic ban on testing, especially when introducing such new and untried technology, has seen to that. I can't think of any other sport where the rules are so heavily weighted against any new participants.

The last era was a different set of circumstances. Manufacturers didn't leave because they couldn't produce good enough engines. E.G. both BMW and Honda were considered powerful enough engines in their own right, let down by the chassis they were in. They left partly for financial reasons, but also largely because the restricted (i.e. zero) development opportunities afforded the V8s were not something they felt offered any incentive to stay. From memory I can't remember any manufacturer producing a dud of an engine in the years prior to the hybrids' introduction, although without checking the stats I can't be completely sure. Whereas now we have 50% of the manufacturers struggling to match the others, with one of them - the only newcomer - looking to possibly exit in abject failure.

Regarding McLaren-Renault, which I assume you meant(!), I'm guessing the Bahrainis at this point will likely be pouring money into the project, rather than stand seeing the company fail. I have my doubts that finances will be a true stumbling block, as much as losing the Honda money will undoubtedly hurt. If they are confident they can get back to winning ways, they may feel the investment is worth it to eventually get better prize money etc.

We are never going to agree about engines and it's hard to produce a dud of an engine if the engines are basically frozen in specification once they are reasonably competitive with one another and of course Renault were able to ask for a performance tweak to bring them up to speed, that's not any kind of competition, you might as well have one engine builder supplying all the field, however more so because of Ferrari that would be impractical.

Regarding McLaren I hope you are right because it gets both themselves and Alonso much closer to the pointy end of the grid.

Regarding your first paragraph, I agree that having everything frozen isn't any kind of competition, but the fact is that manufacturers weren't put off because they didn't want to look like fools. The current regulations make it difficult for manufacturers to justify taking the plunge. There's just too much risk for too little reward. You can't compare the last era to this one in that regard.

And just to be clear, here, this isn't about whether or not hybrids belong in F1, but about the regulations surrounding their introduction. All they have done is raise the barrier to entry. Unless a manufacturer gets it right at the very beginning, they are doomed to be forever also-rans.

No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:52 pm 
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moby wrote:
If Aonso goes, could we see Lando Norris at Mclaren?
The price would be right, and until they are up there fighting with the top 3 the few tenths a top driver would bring are not really relevant.

A new young driver can be moulded into the (new) Mclaren form and not be as vocal ( or disruptive if you like) as Alonso, and as long as he is good enough to prove the Mclaren is competitive, pave the way to bring in a top driver the following year, or stick with him if he is good enough.

Not a lot to loose by trying him really

The line up would be too inexperienced and I don't think it would satisfy Honda in particular.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 4:57 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
I'd call Merc, Ferrari and (despite their reliability issues) Red Bull great cars. I'd call Force India and (lately) Renault good cars. Williams, Toro Rosso and Haas are so-so. And then you've got McLaren and Sauber

Williams are a funny one. They started the season right up there, 4th best car in my book. They've slipped back something terrible. A complete role reversal with Renault

Read the Renault article just above your post and they say that they would not sign Alonso for fear of him getting frustrated with them not having a top car, I guess this then creates a negative energy within the team, also let's not forget that given the parameters you give for what a good car is, Alonso basically walked away from a good car in 2014.

None of that is relevant to my post

Alonso walked away from a bunch of underachievers but found to his detriment that his new team turned out to be an historically bad bunch of underachievers

So what have Renault or Force India achieved that would meet Alonso's standards?

If he is seriously considering Williams then I don't see why he shouldn't consider Force India. Neither are up to his standards. But if he is that desperate to get out of McLaren then how could he charge them an arm and a leg knowing that they can't afford it?

Renault is a different kettle of fish. They've made massive improvements this year. And they still claim to be in rebuild mode. The potential is clear to see. He has won races any time he has been there, Renault have fought for titles every time they've entered as a constructor, etc. etc.
If the team aren't open to hiring him then it's all moot

I think he'd drive front running car for free

Williams being interested in Alonso doesn't mean he's interested in them, even Button turned them down.

Renault have won nothing thus far in the hybrid area, they themselves admit it will be at least another couple of years before they are ready to win.

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2015: 3rd Place
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2018: Currently 9th

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:06 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

As I recall Mercedes were probably going to quit if it weren't for the introduction of hybrids and Honda would not have joined.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 5:39 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I wonder how this is a failure of the hybrid era when manufacturers left in droves during the last engine era and some of the few that were left threatened to leave unless the engine rules were changed?

Is not F1 a competition for all concerned including engine manufacturers?

On the plus side a Mercedes Renault collaboration gets them closer to the pointy end of the grid however I'm wondering how do they finance a competitive car and Alonso's wages?

It's a failure because it effectively shuts the door on new entrants. There is always a risk/reward balance, but with the hybrids the risk greatly outweighs the rewards. No manufacturer in their right minds would dip a toe in the water having looked at the Honda experience, therefore it raises questions as to whether there will ever be any additional entrants while the rules remain as rigid and inflexible as they are. F1 has become a closed shop, more than ever before.

It is a competition for engine manufacturers, too, yes. But one with a set of rules that virtually guarantees any new entrant will start at an enormous, some might say insurmountable, disadvantage. The idiotic ban on testing, especially when introducing such new and untried technology, has seen to that. I can't think of any other sport where the rules are so heavily weighted against any new participants.

The last era was a different set of circumstances. Manufacturers didn't leave because they couldn't produce good enough engines. E.G. both BMW and Honda were considered powerful enough engines in their own right, let down by the chassis they were in. They left partly for financial reasons, but also largely because the restricted (i.e. zero) development opportunities afforded the V8s were not something they felt offered any incentive to stay. From memory I can't remember any manufacturer producing a dud of an engine in the years prior to the hybrids' introduction, although without checking the stats I can't be completely sure. Whereas now we have 50% of the manufacturers struggling to match the others, with one of them - the only newcomer - looking to possibly exit in abject failure.

Regarding McLaren-Renault, which I assume you meant(!), I'm guessing the Bahrainis at this point will likely be pouring money into the project, rather than stand seeing the company fail. I have my doubts that finances will be a true stumbling block, as much as losing the Honda money will undoubtedly hurt. If they are confident they can get back to winning ways, they may feel the investment is worth it to eventually get better prize money etc.

We are never going to agree about engines and it's hard to produce a dud of an engine if the engines are basically frozen in specification once they are reasonably competitive with one another and of course Renault were able to ask for a performance tweak to bring them up to speed, that's not any kind of competition, you might as well have one engine builder supplying all the field, however more so because of Ferrari that would be impractical.

Regarding McLaren I hope you are right because it gets both themselves and Alonso much closer to the pointy end of the grid.

Regarding your first paragraph, I agree that having everything frozen isn't any kind of competition, but the fact is that manufacturers weren't put off because they didn't want to look like fools. The current regulations make it difficult for manufacturers to justify taking the plunge. There's just too much risk for too little reward. You can't compare the last era to this one in that regard.

And just to be clear, here, this isn't about whether or not hybrids belong in F1, but about the regulations surrounding their introduction. All they have done is raise the barrier to entry. Unless a manufacturer gets it right at the very beginning, they are doomed to be forever also-rans.

No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

I don't really know what to say. There are clearly comprehension issues here. If you think it's as easy for a potential new engine manufacturer to join now as it was then, then we have a different idea of things.


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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:26 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Read the Renault article just above your post and they say that they would not sign Alonso for fear of him getting frustrated with them not having a top car, I guess this then creates a negative energy within the team, also let's not forget that given the parameters you give for what a good car is, Alonso basically walked away from a good car in 2014.

None of that is relevant to my post

Alonso walked away from a bunch of underachievers but found to his detriment that his new team turned out to be an historically bad bunch of underachievers

So what have Renault or Force India achieved that would meet Alonso's standards?

If he is seriously considering Williams then I don't see why he shouldn't consider Force India. Neither are up to his standards. But if he is that desperate to get out of McLaren then how could he charge them an arm and a leg knowing that they can't afford it?

Renault is a different kettle of fish. They've made massive improvements this year. And they still claim to be in rebuild mode. The potential is clear to see. He has won races any time he has been there, Renault have fought for titles every time they've entered as a constructor, etc. etc.
If the team aren't open to hiring him then it's all moot

I think he'd drive front running car for free

Williams being interested in Alonso doesn't mean he's interested in them, even Button turned them down.

Renault have won nothing thus far in the hybrid area, they themselves admit it will be at least another couple of years before they are ready to win.

mcdo wrote:
If he is seriously considering Williams

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:46 pm 
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wolfticket wrote:
pokerman wrote:
No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

As I recall Mercedes were probably going to quit if it weren't for the introduction of hybrids and Honda would not have joined.

It was actually Renault that threatened to quit.

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:50 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
It's a failure because it effectively shuts the door on new entrants. There is always a risk/reward balance, but with the hybrids the risk greatly outweighs the rewards. No manufacturer in their right minds would dip a toe in the water having looked at the Honda experience, therefore it raises questions as to whether there will ever be any additional entrants while the rules remain as rigid and inflexible as they are. F1 has become a closed shop, more than ever before.

It is a competition for engine manufacturers, too, yes. But one with a set of rules that virtually guarantees any new entrant will start at an enormous, some might say insurmountable, disadvantage. The idiotic ban on testing, especially when introducing such new and untried technology, has seen to that. I can't think of any other sport where the rules are so heavily weighted against any new participants.

The last era was a different set of circumstances. Manufacturers didn't leave because they couldn't produce good enough engines. E.G. both BMW and Honda were considered powerful enough engines in their own right, let down by the chassis they were in. They left partly for financial reasons, but also largely because the restricted (i.e. zero) development opportunities afforded the V8s were not something they felt offered any incentive to stay. From memory I can't remember any manufacturer producing a dud of an engine in the years prior to the hybrids' introduction, although without checking the stats I can't be completely sure. Whereas now we have 50% of the manufacturers struggling to match the others, with one of them - the only newcomer - looking to possibly exit in abject failure.

Regarding McLaren-Renault, which I assume you meant(!), I'm guessing the Bahrainis at this point will likely be pouring money into the project, rather than stand seeing the company fail. I have my doubts that finances will be a true stumbling block, as much as losing the Honda money will undoubtedly hurt. If they are confident they can get back to winning ways, they may feel the investment is worth it to eventually get better prize money etc.

We are never going to agree about engines and it's hard to produce a dud of an engine if the engines are basically frozen in specification once they are reasonably competitive with one another and of course Renault were able to ask for a performance tweak to bring them up to speed, that's not any kind of competition, you might as well have one engine builder supplying all the field, however more so because of Ferrari that would be impractical.

Regarding McLaren I hope you are right because it gets both themselves and Alonso much closer to the pointy end of the grid.

Regarding your first paragraph, I agree that having everything frozen isn't any kind of competition, but the fact is that manufacturers weren't put off because they didn't want to look like fools. The current regulations make it difficult for manufacturers to justify taking the plunge. There's just too much risk for too little reward. You can't compare the last era to this one in that regard.

And just to be clear, here, this isn't about whether or not hybrids belong in F1, but about the regulations surrounding their introduction. All they have done is raise the barrier to entry. Unless a manufacturer gets it right at the very beginning, they are doomed to be forever also-rans.

No new engine manufacturers were interested in entering F1 before the hybrids, in fact like I said manufacturers were pulling out, so F1 is certainly no worse off now than back then, despite their problems even Honda don't actually want to pull out.

I don't really know what to say. There are clearly comprehension issues here. If you think it's as easy for a potential new engine manufacturer to join now as it was then, then we have a different idea of things.

No it's not easy but were was these potential new engine manufacturers before the hybrids, not one entered during the V8 era, the hybrids at least drew in Honda.

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2018: Currently 9th

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 Post subject: Re: Silly season 2018
PostPosted: Wed Aug 30, 2017 6:53 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mcdo wrote:
None of that is relevant to my post

Alonso walked away from a bunch of underachievers but found to his detriment that his new team turned out to be an historically bad bunch of underachievers

So what have Renault or Force India achieved that would meet Alonso's standards?

If he is seriously considering Williams then I don't see why he shouldn't consider Force India. Neither are up to his standards. But if he is that desperate to get out of McLaren then how could he charge them an arm and a leg knowing that they can't afford it?

Renault is a different kettle of fish. They've made massive improvements this year. And they still claim to be in rebuild mode. The potential is clear to see. He has won races any time he has been there, Renault have fought for titles every time they've entered as a constructor, etc. etc.
If the team aren't open to hiring him then it's all moot

I think he'd drive front running car for free

Williams being interested in Alonso doesn't mean he's interested in them, even Button turned them down.

Renault have won nothing thus far in the hybrid area, they themselves admit it will be at least another couple of years before they are ready to win.

mcdo wrote:
If he is seriously considering Williams

But like I say who said he was interested to make the rest of what you said plausible?

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