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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:52 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 7:32 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.



It shouldn't have been a risk. Verstappen was on that line all the way into the approach to the corner. he didn't just appear there at the last minute. I agree he takes risks some would not and given his current non WDC fighting position that is the most effective strategy to take. It's actually very good decision making.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 12:01 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.



It shouldn't have been a risk. Verstappen was on that line all the way into the approach to the corner. he didn't just appear there at the last minute. I agree he takes risks some would not and given his current non WDC fighting position that is the most effective strategy to take. It's actually very good decision making.

If you look at his onboard he's heading for very much a tightening gap, also it's only good decision making if it actually pays off, was hitting Vettel's car in Canada also good decision making or maybe luck that his car didn't get damaged?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.



It shouldn't have been a risk. Verstappen was on that line all the way into the approach to the corner. he didn't just appear there at the last minute. I agree he takes risks some would not and given his current non WDC fighting position that is the most effective strategy to take. It's actually very good decision making.

If you look at his onboard he's heading for very much a tightening gap, also it's only good decision making if it actually pays off, was hitting Vettel's car in Canada also good decision making or maybe luck that his car didn't get damaged?

It was complete luck. But he has nothing to lose. Red Bull are in no man's land and his only competition is his teammate. And he was beating his teammate due to his start

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:32 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.



It shouldn't have been a risk. Verstappen was on that line all the way into the approach to the corner. he didn't just appear there at the last minute. I agree he takes risks some would not and given his current non WDC fighting position that is the most effective strategy to take. It's actually very good decision making.

If you look at his onboard he's heading for very much a tightening gap, also it's only good decision making if it actually pays off, was hitting Vettel's car in Canada also good decision making or maybe luck that his car didn't get damaged?

It was complete luck. But he has nothing to lose. Red Bull are in no man's land and his only competition is his teammate. And he was beating his teammate due to his start

Indeed, you roll the dice and some you lose and some you win, but let's not call it bad luck when the strategy comes unstuck.

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:51 pm 
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Actually watched the start again. It wasn't Verstappen making it 3 wide it was Bottas braking early.

Max was alongside Kimi before either of them got alongside Bottas.

So no reckless or even aggressive driving.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 1:53 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.



It shouldn't have been a risk. Verstappen was on that line all the way into the approach to the corner. he didn't just appear there at the last minute. I agree he takes risks some would not and given his current non WDC fighting position that is the most effective strategy to take. It's actually very good decision making.

If you look at his onboard he's heading for very much a tightening gap, also it's only good decision making if it actually pays off, was hitting Vettel's car in Canada also good decision making or maybe luck that his car didn't get damaged?


Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 2:27 pm 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.


I don't think it pays to think like that. Too much of that thinking and you'll never be in contention for a championship.

Besides, I think this is getting over egged. 7 races in and this is the first one he has done any damage to anyone else.... Not many drivers on the grid won't have been at least partly responsible for any contact with anyone else after the last 7 races.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 18, 2017 3:09 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.


mikeyg123 wrote:
I don't think it pays to think like that. Too much of that thinking and you'll never be in contention for a championship.


It's not an all-or-nothing thing, of course. It's just that Max already has a history of making dodgy moves, and every instance that happens from now on will solidify that reputation in the eyes of the other drivers, the teams, and the fans. A driver has to take calculated risks. It's all about balance. You drive too risky, you lose; you drive too cautiously, you lose. There is a fine middle ground somewhere in there that the best drivers are able to find sooner or later. I think Max is very close to being deemed too risky. This could hurt his future prospects, although will his level of talent, he will be in F1 for many years. The only question is whether it is going to be in a backmarker, midfielder or a front-running team. Grosjean and Maldonado are perfect examples of drivers who have the speed, but not the decision making skills required of top drivers.

mikeyg123 wrote:
Besides, I think this is getting over egged. 7 races in and this is the first one he has done any damage to anyone else.... Not many drivers on the grid won't have been at least partly responsible for any contact with anyone else after the last 7 races.


We have to look back to last season as well though. Max made quite a few drivers angry with his moves that only worked because other drivers involved in those incidents reacted with uber-human reflexes to avoid collisions. This is not going to last forever though, particularly if he has a competitive car in the future, and nobody will cut him any slack.


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:35 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
No, it's the same. Verstappen was collected by someone else accident just like Massa. Verstappen's car position was not a factor in Bottas running into Kimi just like Massa's wasn't a factor in Sainz and Grosjean's.

You do this sometimes. Decide a driver is aggressive and then hold him responsible for every incident he gets caught up in.

Verstappen put himself in a vulnerable position by trying to go around the outside of 2 cars into a tight chicane, he takes risks that some other drivers would not take, Massa wasn't trying to pass anyone and he was hit by a car that had lost control, totally different.



It shouldn't have been a risk. Verstappen was on that line all the way into the approach to the corner. he didn't just appear there at the last minute. I agree he takes risks some would not and given his current non WDC fighting position that is the most effective strategy to take. It's actually very good decision making.

If you look at his onboard he's heading for very much a tightening gap, also it's only good decision making if it actually pays off, was hitting Vettel's car in Canada also good decision making or maybe luck that his car didn't get damaged?


Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.

Well it will be interesting to see how things play out in future race starts.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:37 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.

I was thinking about this myself, there is a saying in racing that what goes around comes back around.

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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:49 am 
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pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.

I was thinking about this myself, there is a saying in racing that what goes around comes back around.


Vettel was once the "crash kid" When does that come back around?


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PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:16 am 
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SmoothRide wrote:
I think Max is very close to being deemed too risky. This could hurt his future prospects, although will his level of talent, he will be in F1 for many years. The only question is whether it is going to be in a backmarker, midfielder or a front-running team.


With everything he's done up until now, the only result is that he's established himself as one of the very top drivers. Even with the agressive manoeuvres he's pulled off. Recent evidence seems to show that he is shedding some agressiveness (really only the Canada start was a bit agressive but rather minor at that) while solidifying his race pace and improving his qualifying pace. Going by that he's in a good position for any of the top seats. RBR are giving a clear message that he isn't going, Wolff has already stated he'd want him, etc.

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 1:01 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.

I was thinking about this myself, there is a saying in racing that what goes around comes back around.


Vettel was once the "crash kid" When does that come back around?

When was Vettel crashing into title contending cars when he himself wasn't in a title contending car?

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PostPosted: Wed Jun 21, 2017 3:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Playing the percentages is good decision making. He did that in Canada but not really in Spain. Spain was just a standard start.


I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.

I was thinking about this myself, there is a saying in racing that what goes around comes back around.


Vettel was once the "crash kid" When does that come back around?

When was Vettel crashing into title contending cars when he himself wasn't in a title contending car?


Why put that condition on it?


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:21 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
SmoothRide wrote:
I am not so sure if that is good decision making. He may benefit in the short term by getting some good finishes, but I can bet my house and my left arm that neither Vettel nor any other driver on the grid will forget those rather reckless moves. One day Max may be fighting for a WDC. Hope he doesn't complain when some overzealous midfielder plows into him for no particular reason other than to try to show off. It's kind of a "you reap what you sow" thing.

I was thinking about this myself, there is a saying in racing that what goes around comes back around.


Vettel was once the "crash kid" When does that come back around?

When was Vettel crashing into title contending cars when he himself wasn't in a title contending car?


Why put that condition on it?

Because that's the whole point of what goes around comes back around, you think it's ok for Verstappen to take risks against title contending cars because he has little to lose, but come the time he finds himself in a title contending car one of the drivers he gave a hard time too
might not find the need to be so generous to Verstappen either.

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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 12:32 am 
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I think all the drivers could and should act in their own best interests at the time. I can't imagine why any top drivers would give each other an easy time of it.


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PostPosted: Fri Jun 23, 2017 9:53 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think all the drivers could and should act in their own best interests at the time. I can't imagine why any top drivers would give each other an easy time of it.

True but there is always a certain amount of respect that exists as well, a line that you wouldn't cross sort of thing, a driver can lose that respect.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:30 pm 
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Come on where are you, stroll should'nt be there, worst driver in F1, wa wa. Time to come here and and take your lumps LOOSERS.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:32 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Come on where are you, stroll should'nt be there, worst driver in F1, wa wa. Time to come here and and take your lumps LOOSERS.


Take it easy it was just one qualifying session where he finally beat his teammate. Let's see more of that for the remainder of the season.
But I'll admit I'm impressed because he's shown he is a hard worker and a quick learner, but beating Massa is not exactly proof of greatness.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:36 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Come on where are you, stroll should'nt be there, worst driver in F1, wa wa. Time to come here and and take your lumps LOOSERS.


What's a looser?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 2:59 pm 
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An extra o for you.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:02 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
An extra o for you.


Well, aren't we cute?

There's absolutely no need for your provocations and aggressiveness.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:04 pm 
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Seems his engineers finally found a setup to make him more comfortable. F1 is not just about the drivers. I thought williams would be better than force india at this track but maybe this is their proper position right now.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:12 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Come on where are you, stroll should'nt be there, worst driver in F1, wa wa. Time to come here and and take your lumps LOOSERS.


Beating his average team mate in quali once does not mean he is not the worst driver in F1. Let's hope he can build on it. If he does then well done.

One swallow does not a summer make and all that.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:40 pm 
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Pretty weak. Everybody was sure enjoying themselves and piling on when he was struggling but now it's the usual comeback, just one race. Now he's going to tracks he's raced before and massa will have to pick up his game. The next comeback will be "well massa was never that good anyway".


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:43 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Pretty weak. Everybody was sure enjoying themselves and piling on when he was struggling but now it's the usual comeback, just one race. Now he's going to tracks he's raced before and massa will have to pick up his game. The next comeback will be "well massa was never that good anyway".

Well Massa is a not a top 10 driver if that's what you mean?

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 3:56 pm 
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Yeah, Yeah, Yeah.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Seems it was ok to pile on to stroll with some pretty rude criticism but my comebacks are aggressive?


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:42 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Seems it was ok to pile on to stroll with some pretty rude criticism but my comebacks are aggressive?

Your comebacks are quite clearly aggressive and I'm sure you can see that.

Anyway, it's been nice to see some progress over the last couple of weekends. What is clear is that he has natural talent given his junior career and what is also clear is that he was not ready for F1 this year. If he can remain calm and focused he can bring himself up to speed and we are seeing some small signs of that now, if he lets his poor performances get to him he may never fulfill his potential in F1.

Good to see he appears to be learning, he needs to do a lot more of that before he can claim to be a competent F1 driver though.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:09 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Seems it was ok to pile on to stroll with some pretty rude criticism but my comebacks are aggressive?


People were criticizing him because he wasn't performing well. That is the name of the game in F1. The position of F1 driver is a very high-profile one and everyone has his say.

There has been mostly mature discussion in this thread, but among the posts that aren't yours are particularly evident. You've thrown insults around from your very first post in this thread.

There are far better ways to handle it.

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:21 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Come on where are you, stroll should'nt be there, worst driver in F1, wa wa. Time to come here and and take your lumps LOOSERS.

Stroll beat an old Felipe Massa once in qualifying and by less than 1 tenth... best driver ever.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:13 pm 
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He beat him on a track he had never been on. He was well clear of him in Q1 and Q2 and was maybe a little to conservative in Q3. So now we have gone from 4 pages of bashing him and i'm to aggressive. Seems like you guys like to dish it out but you don't like taking it. Have a little humor things could turn.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:27 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
Pretty weak. Everybody was sure enjoying themselves and piling on when he was struggling but now it's the usual comeback, just one race. Now he's going to tracks he's raced before and massa will have to pick up his game. The next comeback will be "well massa was never that good anyway".


Indeed it will...

But currently his bar is set at being around the worst driver on the grid. If he starts matching Massa and beating him every now and then he will have a new bar and won't be in contention for worst driver on the grid at that point he will be matching a good/average driver in this field. If he goes on to start beating Massa regularly then the bar moves again and the talk will begin about him being a top 10 driver on the grid.

Currently the bar is still around him being one of the worst on the grid, but lets see how he progresses in the next few races, he is on the up it seems :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 9:32 pm 
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spiritone wrote:
He beat him on a track he had never been on. He was well clear of him in Q1 and Q2 and was maybe a little to conservative in Q3. So now we have gone from 4 pages of bashing him and i'm to aggressive. Seems like you guys like to dish it out but you don't like taking it. Have a little humor things could turn.

Lets wait and see. So far he has not gained much good reputation, he'll have to keep on beating Massa for some races for people to recognize his talent.
Also the fact that he's paid a fortune to get the seat, isnt doing him any favors, I'd say its a big factor to explain that criticism.


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PostPosted: Sat Jun 24, 2017 10:59 pm 
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I criticized Stroll when he was bad, and I'm happy to see him drive well when he does. What's so hard to grasp about that? People didn't pile on him because they hated him - they got on his case because he was genuinely far too slow compared to Massa to justify his seat at the time. If he's able to match Massa going forward, great! That's what I want to see.

I'm not sure why you apparently can't criticize a driver for doing a bad job and still acknowledge when he does a good job. Maybe impartiality is so dead people don't even believe in it anymore?

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:27 am 
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Stroll is set to test the 2014 Williams between each race, going to tracks he has never raced on before. That must be costing his Dad a fortune.

"Stroll engaged in a dedicated 2014 Williams test programme during his European Formula 3 championship campaign last season in order to prepare for F1 this year. This programme is continuing with Stroll scheduled to do an exclusive day of testing in the 2014-spec car between every race, at tracks he hasn't visited, until the end of the season.

Lowe said Stroll's familiarity with the car combined with the extra track time helped accelerate his learning process between races."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... st-922780/

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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 12:56 am 
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lamo wrote:
Stroll is set to test the 2014 Williams between each race, going to tracks he has never raced on before. That must be costing his Dad a fortune.

"Stroll engaged in a dedicated 2014 Williams test programme during his European Formula 3 championship campaign last season in order to prepare for F1 this year. This programme is continuing with Stroll scheduled to do an exclusive day of testing in the 2014-spec car between every race, at tracks he hasn't visited, until the end of the season.

Lowe said Stroll's familiarity with the car combined with the extra track time helped accelerate his learning process between races."

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1-s ... st-922780/

So he needs plenty more practices and tests than anybody else to have some decent performances. Again, best driver ever :twisted:


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:21 am 
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To be fair, if the chance is there for him to maximise his preparation, then all power to him for taking the opportunity. Given his backing, he is going to be around for a good while yet wether we like it or not, so hopefully he can build on his showing yesterday and develop into a good driver in the future.

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