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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:32 pm 
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McLaren's pit work has been notoriously bad for a couple of years now and that's the one area during the turbo era they've had no good excuse for lagging behind.

They rarely seem able to break 3.0s while Williams pump in low 2's consistently it feels like.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:19 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Stoffel is an odd one. All the ingredients are there, but they just aren't translating into on track performance. AI do find myself wondering at the lack of testing for new drivers. There will be a few a generation that can jump into a car and be quick, but others need time to find their zone.

In the Schumacher early years it was not unusual to see Schumi throwing the car off the circuit every Friday as he found the limits of the car and the track. These days, such a luxury would be frowned upon by the pundits and fans, make headlines and probably be disallowed by the team as their cars are abused So the new drivers get no experience in the real car, and have to perform immediately.

The cars of the last few years are not easy to drive or manage and experience seems to account for a lot of ultimate pace. There is the simulator, but all drivers say it doesn't prep you for track, it just gives you system awareness.

Maybe Stoffel is a good case for testing time to be given to drivers with less than 2 years experience...


Good points but I think he hit the ground running under the last regs in Bahrain last year. That was a weak version of a weak PU at that stage and he scored a point on a power track. I think people forget that a lot.

This years cars are a lot less forgiving, are causing big gaps between even experienced team mates, look at some of the gaps Lewis has to Bottas, far bigger than Stoff's to Alonso.

Then there's the Honda pu earlier which was just a vibrating mess that needed some creativity from the cockpit to drive around which just happens to be an Alonso strength and I think it was just a baptism of fire this year in the worst possible circumstances with the worst possible driver to be compared too. I think he'd have gotten up to speed much quicker in any other car.

But I'm all for giving the rookies more testing though, it would be cool if we saw more young drivers tests and got to see some of the young driver academy drivers like Norris get a go in the Macca for example. Even better if it's part of the race weekend and we can compare them to the seat holders.


Yes, his performance last year was what we expected of him. It is a bit observational at the moment but the inexperienced drivers do seem to be struggling to get on top of these cars. One race, they can be on it, and the very next race, be no where.

Look at Stroll, Kmag, Whierlin....only Ocon seems to be immune!


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:37 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Stoffel is an odd one. All the ingredients are there, but they just aren't translating into on track performance. AI do find myself wondering at the lack of testing for new drivers. There will be a few a generation that can jump into a car and be quick, but others need time to find their zone.

In the Schumacher early years it was not unusual to see Schumi throwing the car off the circuit every Friday as he found the limits of the car and the track. These days, such a luxury would be frowned upon by the pundits and fans, make headlines and probably be disallowed by the team as their cars are abused So the new drivers get no experience in the real car, and have to perform immediately.

The cars of the last few years are not easy to drive or manage and experience seems to account for a lot of ultimate pace. There is the simulator, but all drivers say it doesn't prep you for track, it just gives you system awareness.

Maybe Stoffel is a good case for testing time to be given to drivers with less than 2 years experience...


Good points but I think he hit the ground running under the last regs in Bahrain last year. That was a weak version of a weak PU at that stage and he scored a point on a power track. I think people forget that a lot.

This years cars are a lot less forgiving, are causing big gaps between even experienced team mates, look at some of the gaps Lewis has to Bottas, far bigger than Stoff's to Alonso.

Then there's the Honda pu earlier which was just a vibrating mess that needed some creativity from the cockpit to drive around which just happens to be an Alonso strength and I think it was just a baptism of fire this year in the worst possible circumstances with the worst possible driver to be compared too. I think he'd have gotten up to speed much quicker in any other car.

But I'm all for giving the rookies more testing though, it would be cool if we saw more young drivers tests and got to see some of the young driver academy drivers like Norris get a go in the Macca for example. Even better if it's part of the race weekend and we can compare them to the seat holders.


Yes, his performance last year was what we expected of him. It is a bit observational at the moment but the inexperienced drivers do seem to be struggling to get on top of these cars. One race, they can be on it, and the very next race, be no where.

Look at Stroll, Kmag, Whierlin....only Ocon seems to be immune!


Yeah it's true. Some of the quali gaps have been silly this year, there seems to be a lot of punishment time wise for small mistakes and the guys with less experience seem to be getting the rough end.

Max the obvious exception, he's excelled in these cars and Ocon has been good too but he needs to beat Perez more often now.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:42 pm 
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Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 8:44 pm 
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As for Vandoorne it is good to see that he has upped his game recently. I am curious to see how he will develop.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 9:41 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Yes, his performance last year was what we expected of him.
He seemed to be getting full support from Alonso, who was unable to drive after his accident earlier in the year. Besides it obviously being a different car, that may well have been an important factor in Stoffel's showing. First point for McLaren, if memory serves.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:08 am 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


He is. His junior career did indicate that he would be ahead of grosjean by now. Again, his form is inconsistent. One race he is the boss, the next struggling.

Icon does need to pull ahead of Perez consistently in thee second half of the year, but his performance and Max do seem to be the stand out of the year so far.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 8:53 am 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


He is. His junior career did indicate that he would be ahead of grosjean by now. Again, his form is inconsistent. One race he is the boss, the next struggling.

Icon does need to pull ahead of Perez consistently in thee second half of the year, but his performance and Max do seem to be the stand out of the year so far.


Grosjean's junior career was as good as Magnussen's if not a bit better.

Expecting a rookie to be beating Perez consistently in their debut season is unrealistic however he could do with beating Perez sometimes. He's getting a few too many plaudits in my opinion. He has only been better than Perez in one race all season and very few seem to rate Perez as anything above a tier 2 driver. If The Force India car was a bit slower and fighting for 13/14 instead of 7/8 then no way would people be rating Ocon as highly as they are. He's doing well but nothing exceptional IMO.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:08 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


He is. His junior career did indicate that he would be ahead of grosjean by now. Again, his form is inconsistent. One race he is the boss, the next struggling.

Icon does need to pull ahead of Perez consistently in thee second half of the year, but his performance and Max do seem to be the stand out of the year so far.


Grosjean's junior career was as good as Magnussen's if not a bit better.

Expecting a rookie to be beating Perez consistently in their debut season is unrealistic however he could do with beating Perez sometimes. He's getting a few too many plaudits in my opinion. He has only been better than Perez in one race all season and very few seem to rate Perez as anything above a tier 2 driver. If The Force India car was a bit slower and fighting for 13/14 instead of 7/8 then no way would people be rating Ocon as highly as they are. He's doing well but nothing exceptional IMO.


You raise some good points. It is the fickle nature of perception and sports fans do tend to be subject to perception bias :)

I suppose Ocon is being rated because he is matching Perex in his rookie season. So if Ocon finds his feet, he should become the dominant driver in that team....may be a good indicator of future performance.

The second year always seems to be the hardest for rookies too...it is as if they have lost some of the zeal and now have the pressure of delivering against the regular drivers....many have fallen in the second season.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:16 am 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


He is. His junior career did indicate that he would be ahead of grosjean by now. Again, his form is inconsistent. One race he is the boss, the next struggling.

Icon does need to pull ahead of Perez consistently in thee second half of the year, but his performance and Max do seem to be the stand out of the year so far.


Grosjean's junior career was as good as Magnussen's if not a bit better.

Expecting a rookie to be beating Perez consistently in their debut season is unrealistic however he could do with beating Perez sometimes. He's getting a few too many plaudits in my opinion. He has only been better than Perez in one race all season and very few seem to rate Perez as anything above a tier 2 driver. If The Force India car was a bit slower and fighting for 13/14 instead of 7/8 then no way would people be rating Ocon as highly as they are. He's doing well but nothing exceptional IMO.


You raise some good points. It is the fickle nature of perception and sports fans do tend to be subject to perception bias :)

I suppose Ocon is being rated because he is matching Perex in his rookie season. So if Ocon finds his feet, he should become the dominant driver in that team....may be a good indicator of future performance.

The second year always seems to be the hardest for rookies too...it is as if they have lost some of the zeal and now have the pressure of delivering against the regular drivers....many have fallen in the second season.


I don't think Ocon is matching Perez . He's getting close but aside from Canada Perez has always been the best FI driver.

I'm sorry but I also disagree with you about drivers dropping off in there 2nd season. In fact I think usually the second season indicates more than the first. Usually drivers perform a lot better in there second seasons. In fact I would go as far as to say every single driver on the current grid improved in there second full season. Hamilton is possibly the only arguable one and he still won the WDC.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:17 am 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Stoffel is an odd one. All the ingredients are there, but they just aren't translating into on track performance. AI do find myself wondering at the lack of testing for new drivers. There will be a few a generation that can jump into a car and be quick, but others need time to find their zone.

In the Schumacher early years it was not unusual to see Schumi throwing the car off the circuit every Friday as he found the limits of the car and the track. These days, such a luxury would be frowned upon by the pundits and fans, make headlines and probably be disallowed by the team as their cars are abused So the new drivers get no experience in the real car, and have to perform immediately.

The cars of the last few years are not easy to drive or manage and experience seems to account for a lot of ultimate pace. There is the simulator, but all drivers say it doesn't prep you for track, it just gives you system awareness.

Maybe Stoffel is a good case for testing time to be given to drivers with less than 2 years experience...


Good points but I think he hit the ground running under the last regs in Bahrain last year. That was a weak version of a weak PU at that stage and he scored a point on a power track. I think people forget that a lot.

This years cars are a lot less forgiving, are causing big gaps between even experienced team mates, look at some of the gaps Lewis has to Bottas, far bigger than Stoff's to Alonso.

Then there's the Honda pu earlier which was just a vibrating mess that needed some creativity from the cockpit to drive around which just happens to be an Alonso strength and I think it was just a baptism of fire this year in the worst possible circumstances with the worst possible driver to be compared too. I think he'd have gotten up to speed much quicker in any other car.

But I'm all for giving the rookies more testing though, it would be cool if we saw more young drivers tests and got to see some of the young driver academy drivers like Norris get a go in the Macca for example. Even better if it's part of the race weekend and we can compare them to the seat holders.


Yes, his performance last year was what we expected of him. It is a bit observational at the moment but the inexperienced drivers do seem to be struggling to get on top of these cars. One race, they can be on it, and the very next race, be no where.

Look at Stroll, Kmag, Whierlin....only Ocon seems to be immune!

I think Magnussen's been having a good year

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:36 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Expecting a rookie to be beating Perez consistently in their debut season is unrealistic however he could do with beating Perez sometimes. He's getting a few too many plaudits in my opinion. He has only been better than Perez in one race all season and very few seem to rate Perez as anything above a tier 2 driver. If The Force India car was a bit slower and fighting for 13/14 instead of 7/8 then no way would people be rating Ocon as highly as they are. He's doing well but nothing exceptional IMO.


Perez might be rated as a tier 2 driver, he is a very experienced and good tier 2 driver. While Ocon has only been better once, maybe, he has been a match or close enough in a good number of races. Given his inexperience... Well, "exceptional" probably isn't the word but "well" is understating it a bit. He's doing great in my opinion.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:42 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


He is. His junior career did indicate that he would be ahead of grosjean by now. Again, his form is inconsistent. One race he is the boss, the next struggling.

Icon does need to pull ahead of Perez consistently in thee second half of the year, but his performance and Max do seem to be the stand out of the year so far.


Grosjean's junior career was as good as Magnussen's if not a bit better.

Expecting a rookie to be beating Perez consistently in their debut season is unrealistic however he could do with beating Perez sometimes. He's getting a few too many plaudits in my opinion. He has only been better than Perez in one race all season and very few seem to rate Perez as anything above a tier 2 driver. If The Force India car was a bit slower and fighting for 13/14 instead of 7/8 then no way would people be rating Ocon as highly as they are. He's doing well but nothing exceptional IMO.


You raise some good points. It is the fickle nature of perception and sports fans do tend to be subject to perception bias :)

I suppose Ocon is being rated because he is matching Perex in his rookie season. So if Ocon finds his feet, he should become the dominant driver in that team....may be a good indicator of future performance.

The second year always seems to be the hardest for rookies too...it is as if they have lost some of the zeal and now have the pressure of delivering against the regular drivers....many have fallen in the second season.


I don't think Ocon is matching Perez . He's getting close but aside from Canada Perez has always been the best FI driver.

I'm sorry but I also disagree with you about drivers dropping off in there 2nd season. In fact I think usually the second season indicates more than the first. Usually drivers perform a lot better in there second seasons. In fact I would go as far as to say every single driver on the current grid improved in there second full season. Hamilton is possibly the only arguable one and he still won the WDC.


Please don't be sorry, liking the debate :)

I think I worded it badly - I suppose what I meant is that the second year, there is no excuses for the driver any more. They know the stress, they know the systems, so they HAVE to step up and deliver. So any performance that is not to the required standard is not viewed kindly by the teams or fans. For example, a driver throws the car into the wall 7 races during their rookie season but they are quick - they are given the benefit of the doubt. The second season, they do the same and the team lose patience.

You are correct though, if they step up in the second season, it shows the potential is being delivered, now they can mature.

Perez though, I do see him as Tier 2 as well, but a rather quick driver on his day. The fact that Ocon is getting close to him in his rookie season does raise a flag that Ocon has huge potential. On paper, you would be right, Perez wins in the qualifying and race results. But future potential...Perez seems to have reached his performance ceiling.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:45 am 
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mcdo wrote:
I think Magnussen's been having a good year


He is not having a bad year, that is for sure - it is his 3rd full season so IMHO, i was expecting him to have stretched his legs this year. Alas, maybe the cars this year are catching those with less experience out, bit like Stoffel.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 3:23 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:

I think I worded it badly - I suppose what I meant is that the second year, there is no excuses for the driver any more. They know the stress, they know the systems, so they HAVE to step up and deliver. So any performance that is not to the required standard is not viewed kindly by the teams or fans. For example, a driver throws the car into the wall 7 races during their rookie season but they are quick - they are given the benefit of the doubt. The second season, they do the same and the team lose patience.

You are correct though, if they step up in the second season, it shows the potential is being delivered, now they can mature.

Perez though, I do see him as Tier 2 as well, but a rather quick driver on his day. The fact that Ocon is getting close to him in his rookie season does raise a flag that Ocon has huge potential. On paper, you would be right, Perez wins in the qualifying and race results. But future potential...Perez seems to have reached his performance ceiling.


Thinking about it further, I do think you are right about the second season in a way. If a driver is not going to make it, it is usually exposed on the second season rather than the first - In recent times Nasr and Palmer spring to mind as drivers who have not gone on to build on their first season.

I think we will find out more about Ocon next season as well. Right now I believe he could be a solid F1 driver but I don't see a potential champion there. He is likely to be up against another driver next year as Perez moves on so that will tell us a bit more. I do think Perez is generally underrated. If Ocon was up against someone like Grosjean I think he may look better.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:03 pm 
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Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:21 pm 
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justbeingmiko wrote:
But future potential...Perez seems to have reached his performance ceiling.

IDK that that's a fair assessment of Perez. He's been on a team that engineers and builds a solid car each year but due to the limited budget, over the course of the season they get left behind a bit in the development race, yet he still yields results and more often than not finishes in front of his teammates all the way to the end of the season.

I think if he was in Bottas' car he'd be a hair better. In Kimi's Ferrari he's be frustrating Vettel in the same way Verstappen does Ricciardo.

I wont say Perez is quite on the same level as Hamilton and Alonso, but I wouldn't dare say he's Tier 2 in any capacity. I don't think Bottas looked better while at Williams which is a larger, better funded team with a supposed washed up guy like Massa keeping him quite honest. Speaking of which, Stroll has been quite impressive himself and the argument can be made that he's been the better rookie of 2017 thus far, but it's definitely between him and Ocon. Sadly Vandoorne is driving a hugely unreliable and under powered car so all we can do is assess how well he's doing via comparing to his teammate who has bested some of the top drivers over his career, so it's likely tougher to assess Vandoorne's performance thus far vs the other 2.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 4:27 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:10 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


Sure. Pick of the newbies. Still has only been better than Perez in one race out of ten though.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:12 pm 
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To humbly put in my two cents worth. I think that some of why Stoff under impresses has to do with the brittleness of the Honda powerplant. I know ,I know , just hear me out. Alonso i think is permitted to go balls-out racing and if it breaks, it breaks. Where as I suspect Stoff's job is to take it easy molly-coddle it a bit and get the mileage. As the problems get sorted I expect to see better and better performances from him. As has been said many times before a good driver doesnt become a bad one over night , I'm pretty sure we mere mortals don't know the half of whats going on behind the scenes. ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 8:40 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


Sure. Pick of the newbies. Still has only been better than Perez in one race out of ten though.

Being right on Perez tail and bringing it home in a number of other races reflects better on Ocon than it does Perez considering their respective experience IMO. Reading arguments that Verstappen in year 3 is still on a learning curve (which is accurate) but Ocon in year 1 should have been beating Perez regularly is bonkers. If Ocon is towards the lower end of this same learning curve (and I suspect he is) then one would assume the tide will turn

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:00 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 9:38 am 
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mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them


I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 11:44 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them


I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

For a guy who reckons Williams have a better car than Red Bull you should thinking Massa is having a tragic season

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 12:03 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them


I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

For a guy who reckons Williams have a better car than Red Bull you should thinking Massa is having a tragic season


Haha :lol:

I don't think that anymore. Are believe they had for a while but Williams seem to have slipped right back. Massa has had some bad luck. Had he been able to run incident free he would have more points than Ocon. Then again I think he has had a better car on average. I don't really have a problem with people thinking Ocon is doing better than Massa. I could certainly see a case for it.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 1:25 pm 
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Massa is another one of those drivers for me that would warrant retiring, only to then put in a performance that shows his talent and capability. Mind you, you could say that of most of the grid on one day or another :)


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 2:46 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them


I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

That's not quite fair to Ocon. You're comparing a very experienced driver in Hulk beating his 2nd year team mate soundly to the newbie Ocon who is being beaten by only a small amount by his very experienced team mate.

When relative experience and quality of team mate is considered Ocon is having a much better season IMO. And that's from someone who has supported Hulk for quite a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:06 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them


I think the FI has been in that 4-5 bracket all year with Williams and the STR and Renault not so I'd have Hulk as being better. Massa has been unluckier and I'd suspect he'd be scoring as regularly but it's Massa and he can be as up and down as anyone so I get your point.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:14 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Dunno what's wrong with y'all. Ocon is the pick of the newbies so far. 9 out of 10 races in the points. Only the top 3 in the WDC have a points finish record as good or better than that


He's been really good yeah and is the pick of the newbs but he is in the 4th or 5th best car every race so he should be scoring those points, Stoff's never going to be able to replicate that scoring form even if he was beating Alonso every race weekend which would be a lot more impressive than rarely beating Perez.

I'd argue Stoff's Silverstone weekend was at least as impressive as Ocon's Canada if not more so as well.

Who else is in the 4th or 5th best car and are they bringing it home in the points when they should? Felipe Massa? Nico Hulkenberg? Either of the Toro Rosso nutters? I would argue Ocon is having a better year than 3 if not all 4 of them


I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

That's not quite fair to Ocon. You're comparing a very experienced driver in Hulk beating his 2nd year team mate soundly to the newbie Ocon who is being beaten by only a small amount by his very experienced team mate.

When relative experience and quality of team mate is considered Ocon is having a much better season IMO. And that's from someone who has supported Hulk for quite a while.


But we are comparing them on how good their performances have been this season? Not who is going to be the better driver at their peak.

Ocon only maybe being beaten by a small amount but he is being beaten by a small amount very often. Unless Hulk is driving worse than he has done in a long time then he is currently driving better than Ocon. Hulk could beat Perez almost half the time. I see no evidence to suggest Hulk is has dropped in performance.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

That's not quite fair to Ocon. You're comparing a very experienced driver in Hulk beating his 2nd year team mate soundly to the newbie Ocon who is being beaten by only a small amount by his very experienced team mate.

When relative experience and quality of team mate is considered Ocon is having a much better season IMO. And that's from someone who has supported Hulk for quite a while.


But we are comparing them on how good their performances have been this season? Not who is going to be the better driver at their peak.

Ocon only maybe being beaten by a small amount but he is being beaten by a small amount very often. Unless Hulk is driving worse than he has done in a long time then he is currently driving better than Ocon. Hulk could beat Perez almost half the time. I see no evidence to suggest Hulk is has dropped in performance.

But this now-quite-off-topic subsection (this is the Vandoorne thread after all) is about who the best of the young guns are this year. And that's why I took that comparison as I did.

Silly 5 quote level limits the start of this line of discussion staying in my response, but you can scroll back up to see that that's where it started as.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 3:41 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

That's not quite fair to Ocon. You're comparing a very experienced driver in Hulk beating his 2nd year team mate soundly to the newbie Ocon who is being beaten by only a small amount by his very experienced team mate.

When relative experience and quality of team mate is considered Ocon is having a much better season IMO. And that's from someone who has supported Hulk for quite a while.


But we are comparing them on how good their performances have been this season? Not who is going to be the better driver at their peak.

Ocon only maybe being beaten by a small amount but he is being beaten by a small amount very often. Unless Hulk is driving worse than he has done in a long time then he is currently driving better than Ocon. Hulk could beat Perez almost half the time. I see no evidence to suggest Hulk is has dropped in performance.

But this now-quite-off-topic subsection (this is the Vandoorne thread after all) is about who the best of the young guns are this year. And that's why I took that comparison as I did.

Silly 5 quote level limits the start of this line of discussion staying in my response, but you can scroll back up to see that that's where it started as.


Agree but I Mcdo said he felt Ocon had performed better than other drivers in consistent point scoring teams. i was refuting that.

I agree that Ocon has been the best of the rookies.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:24 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
RaggedMan wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I would argue Hulk has been doing better. Destroyed his team mate whilst Ocon ìs almost always bettered by his, albeit by increasingly small margins. Massa has often had a better car than Ocon but is almost always running in the points when not suffering misfortune. If Massa's car hadn't broken down and he had won in Azerbaijan his season would be looking quite different.

That's not quite fair to Ocon. You're comparing a very experienced driver in Hulk beating his 2nd year team mate soundly to the newbie Ocon who is being beaten by only a small amount by his very experienced team mate.

When relative experience and quality of team mate is considered Ocon is having a much better season IMO. And that's from someone who has supported Hulk for quite a while.


But we are comparing them on how good their performances have been this season? Not who is going to be the better driver at their peak.

Ocon only maybe being beaten by a small amount but he is being beaten by a small amount very often. Unless Hulk is driving worse than he has done in a long time then he is currently driving better than Ocon. Hulk could beat Perez almost half the time. I see no evidence to suggest Hulk is has dropped in performance.

But this now-quite-off-topic subsection (this is the Vandoorne thread after all) is about who the best of the young guns are this year. And that's why I took that comparison as I did.

Silly 5 quote level limits the start of this line of discussion staying in my response, but you can scroll back up to see that that's where it started as.


Agree but I Mcdo said he felt Ocon had performed better than other drivers in consistent point scoring teams. i was refuting that.

I agree that Ocon has been the best of the rookies.

The only one up for debate is Hulk. Ocon has performed better than the Williams drivers, the Toro Rosso drivers, definitely one Renault driver, do we add the Haas drivers? And don't forget that before his Silverstone heroics, Hulk drove into a wall in Baku and went missing after fluffing his start on race day in Austria, coming home behind Palmer. It's not like he's been consistently getting the best out of his car

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 4:47 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
The only one up for debate is Hulk. Ocon has performed better than the Williams drivers, the Toro Rosso drivers, definitely one Renault driver, do we add the Haas drivers? And don't forget that before his Silverstone heroics, Hulk drove into a wall in Baku and went missing after fluffing his start on race day in Austria, coming home behind Palmer. It's not like he's been consistently getting the best out of his car


Difficult to know what the best of his car is. He's beating his team mate by so much. He may be over performing a bit. Unless he is performing under his usual level then he is probably doing better than Ocon. I would find it harsh to rate a driver who has destroyed his team mate lower than one who has been bettered by his consistently. Let's be honest we have no real idea of the pace of the Renault compared to its competitors.

Let me ask you something... If the FI was half a second a lap slower and Perez had about 12 points and Ocon 8 and the performance gap between them was identical to what we have seen this season would you still be rating Ocon above Hulkenberg?


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2017 7:49 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
mcdo wrote:
The only one up for debate is Hulk. Ocon has performed better than the Williams drivers, the Toro Rosso drivers, definitely one Renault driver, do we add the Haas drivers? And don't forget that before his Silverstone heroics, Hulk drove into a wall in Baku and went missing after fluffing his start on race day in Austria, coming home behind Palmer. It's not like he's been consistently getting the best out of his car


Difficult to know what the best of his car is. He's beating his team mate by so much. He may be over performing a bit. Unless he is performing under his usual level then he is probably doing better than Ocon. I would find it harsh to rate a driver who has destroyed his team mate lower than one who has been bettered by his consistently. Let's be honest we have no real idea of the pace of the Renault compared to its competitors.

He didn't get the best out his car in 2 of the last 3 races. He was at fault in both Baku and Austria as far as I'm aware

mikeyg123 wrote:
Let me ask you something... If the FI was half a second a lap slower and Perez had about 12 points and Ocon 8 and the performance gap between them was identical to what we have seen this season would you still be rating Ocon above Hulkenberg?

Hard to know. But of all of the list in the above post that I wasn't sure about (and asked if we should add them to the list) it was Haas. The car isn't a consistent points scorer and the brakes have given its drivers plenty of problems. But I think both drivers have driven very well. They're having good seasons. It's hard to ascertain if Grosjean is performing at his best but Magnussen hasn't been far off his equal IMO

Are they driving as well as Hulk? I don't know. From recollection they haven't been making many boneheaded mistakes (my memory tells me I think KMag was at fault for his puncture in Spain) with the caveat that their off track moments might not always be down to the dodgy brakes. Impossible to know. Anyway they have impressed me more than some drivers in better teams

But if Perez was on 12 points and Ocon was on 8 points and repeatedly finishing on the road behind Checo (and both scores were a result of multiple points finishes and not freak results) then I believe I would be as equally as impressed with Ocon in that case as I am now. Would I say he's driving as well as Hulk? I have no idea

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 12:45 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
justbeingmiko wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Well, Magnussen has been very much on par with Grosjean. Technical problems account for some variation in both Haas drivers performances.


He is. His junior career did indicate that he would be ahead of grosjean by now. Again, his form is inconsistent. One race he is the boss, the next struggling.

Icon does need to pull ahead of Perez consistently in thee second half of the year, but his performance and Max do seem to be the stand out of the year so far.


Grosjean's junior career was as good as Magnussen's if not a bit better.

Expecting a rookie to be beating Perez consistently in their debut season is unrealistic however he could do with beating Perez sometimes. He's getting a few too many plaudits in my opinion. He has only been better than Perez in one race all season and very few seem to rate Perez as anything above a tier 2 driver. If The Force India car was a bit slower and fighting for 13/14 instead of 7/8 then no way would people be rating Ocon as highly as they are. He's doing well but nothing exceptional IMO.

Grosjean's junior career was a lot better than KMag's, KMag actually didn't win anything until he won the FR3.5 title the year before entering F1.

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Sun Jul 30, 2017 11:35 pm 
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Zak Brown rated Stoffel in Schumacher Senna level.. He always comes across as a corporate hype artist.. Has a great driver ever had such an underwhelming beginning to their career?


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:31 am 
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schumilegend wrote:
Zak Brown rated Stoffel in Schumacher Senna level.. He always comes across as a corporate hype artist.. Has a great driver ever had such an underwhelming beginning to their career?

Niki Lauda, Nigel Mansell

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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 12:48 am 
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schumilegend wrote:
Zak Brown rated Stoffel in Schumacher Senna level.. He always comes across as a corporate hype artist.. Has a great driver ever had such an underwhelming beginning to their career?


Button, Raikkonen, Mansell, Piquet, Prost and Lauda all lost to lesser drivers than Alonso in their debut years.


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:48 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
schumilegend wrote:
Zak Brown rated Stoffel in Schumacher Senna level.. He always comes across as a corporate hype artist.. Has a great driver ever had such an underwhelming beginning to their career?


Button, Raikkonen, Mansell, Piquet, Prost and Lauda all lost to lesser drivers than Alonso in their debut years.

Piquet lost to Lauda, who was a double WDC by then, same as Alonso. By a single point. And neither driver finished more than four races. I don't think it's quite the same. But I do agree there's no shame in Vandoorne being beaten by someone of Alonso's calibre


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 Post subject: Re: Stoffel Vandoorne
PostPosted: Mon Jul 31, 2017 7:54 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
schumilegend wrote:
Zak Brown rated Stoffel in Schumacher Senna level.. He always comes across as a corporate hype artist.. Has a great driver ever had such an underwhelming beginning to their career?


Button, Raikkonen, Mansell, Piquet, Prost and Lauda all lost to lesser drivers than Alonso in their debut years.

Piquet lost to Lauda, who was a double WDC by then, same as Alonso. By a single point. And neither driver finished more than four races. I don't think it's quite the same. But I do agree there's no shame in Vandoorne being beaten by someone of Alonso's calibre


:thumbup: Yes I made a mistake for Piquet. I thought he had his first full year for Brabham in 78 not 79.


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