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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:54 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Muh Ferrari race pace :lol:

It's an absolute miracle that Vettel is still leading this WDC. Mercedes have regained 2014-16 levels of dominance.

It's a shame that Mercedes' dominance will probably gift Hamilton this WDC after Vettel outperformed him in roughly equal cars at the start of the season.


First race this season that it seemed Ferrari didn't have the race pace, and I don't expect them to develop faster than Mercedes now. They have no points advantage now, either. Vettel and Hamilton are too evenly matched to be making too much of a difference, and Bottas is better than Raikkonen. Championship gone for Ferrari now. Now they must worry about losing Vettel.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 1:58 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
First race this season that it seemed Ferrari didn't have the race pace, and I don't expect them to develop faster than Mercedes now. They have no points advantage now, either. Vettel and Hamilton are too evenly matched to be making too much of a difference, and Bottas is better than Raikkonen. Championship gone for Ferrari now. Now they must worry about losing Vettel.

Apart from Canada, and Baku, and Austria.

Mercedes was clearly better in all 3 of these races.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:02 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
First race this season that it seemed Ferrari didn't have the race pace, and I don't expect them to develop faster than Mercedes now. They have no points advantage now, either. Vettel and Hamilton are too evenly matched to be making too much of a difference, and Bottas is better than Raikkonen. Championship gone for Ferrari now. Now they must worry about losing Vettel.

Apart from Canada, and Baku, and Austria.

Mercedes was clearly better in all 3 of these races.


Maybe you should watch those races with more attention to detail.

In China and Canada, after Vettel got rid of his problems because of the early pit stop and slow start, he was on similar pace to Hamilton.

So too in Baku, and he finished exactly behind Bottas in Austria. Whenever Ferrari did seem slower, it was by tiny margins, maybe a tenth a lap, but not conclusively. Today, however, it was different.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:03 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Muh Ferrari race pace :lol:

It's an absolute miracle that Vettel is still leading this WDC. Mercedes have regained 2014-16 levels of dominance.

It's a shame that Mercedes' dominance will probably gift Hamilton this WDC after Vettel outperformed him in roughly equal cars at the start of the season.


First race this season that it seemed Ferrari didn't have the race pace, and I don't expect them to develop faster than Mercedes now. They have no points advantage now, either. Vettel and Hamilton are too evenly matched to be making too much of a difference, and Bottas is better than Raikkonen. Championship gone for Ferrari now. Now they must worry about losing Vettel.

well, I'd argue the Mercedes has been clearly better for the last few races, but none more so than today. As I wrote in the race thread I think the titles are Lewis'/Merc's to lose and with the apparent gap as big as it is I don't see Ferrari / Vettel coming out on top


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:06 pm 
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IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Maybe you should watch those races with more attention to detail.

I've watched all those races, and it requires clear mental gymnastics to deny that Mercedes was anything other than the clear best car in every race since Monaco.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:26 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
Maybe you should watch those races with more attention to detail.

I've watched all those races, and it requires clear mental gymnastics to deny that Mercedes was anything other than the clear best car in every race since Monaco.


Never as straightforward as that. Q in Baku was dominant but Ferrari struggled because of taking too much wing off and it hurt their tyres over 1 lap but Lewis couldn't make a dent once he was behind Seb in the race and Seb had a Spec 1 4000+km engine. Austria they were close in both Q+R.

Here they got destroyed in both Q+R. Clear difference. This track in particular suits a LWB car and the Mercedes has been the better car in cooler temps all year, both compounded today and this is what we get. If it's the same gap in a hot Hungary then we can start talking about Mercedes being gone though I think.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:32 pm 
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Apparently the 50bhp upgrade for Ferrari was a total gain over Spec1 from race 1 for the Spec 3 upgrade introduced here. The actual upgrade was worth 15bhp.

Mercedes brought their own here but haven't seen a figure bandied about.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 2:55 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
IDrinkYourMilkshake wrote:
First race this season that it seemed Ferrari didn't have the race pace, and I don't expect them to develop faster than Mercedes now. They have no points advantage now, either. Vettel and Hamilton are too evenly matched to be making too much of a difference, and Bottas is better than Raikkonen. Championship gone for Ferrari now. Now they must worry about losing Vettel.

Apart from Canada, and Baku, and Austria.

Mercedes was clearly better in all 3 of these races.


I agree. In power circuits they definitely have the advantage. Silverstone as well according to the commentator in dry it is suppose to be 70% full throttle so they were going to be fast again. Next race in Hungary Ferrari has better chance.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 3:58 pm 
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Hungary is a totally different track. If Merc is faster there too (I expect Ferrari to be close/slightly ahead in race pace), then it's game over for Ferrari barring any misfortune for Merc.

Ferrari traditionally are not good at development toward the end of the season, so I expect Merc to retain the upper hand they have now.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:08 pm 
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Hungary is an odd track, im expecting the top 3 teams to all be very close. Might have a flutter on the RB boys nabbing a win there.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:09 pm 
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Certainly looking like Mercedes are now the faster car.
Will be interesting to see if Ferrari have a response.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:23 pm 
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Mercedes is now definitely the quicker car in Hamilton's hands at least. Ferrari are still close enough that Vettel can fight with Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:24 pm 
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Yeah, Ferrari needs to make an impression in Hungary. There are a bunch of power hungry circuits left too. If Ferrari doesn't bounce back at Hungary, then I agree with the overall sentiment that the title race is over.


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:32 pm 
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Bonus points Kleefton for writing Hungary twice and hungry once and not getting one of them mixed up. :thumbup:

I know I would have for sure. :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:34 pm 
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Just read that Lewis said they had no upgrades here but just working with what they have.

Oh boy.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:37 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Bonus points Kleefton for writing Hungary twice and hungry once and not getting one of them mixed up. :thumbup:

I know I would have for sure. :lol:


LOL, didn't even notice :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:40 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Just read that Lewis said they had no upgrades here but just working with what they have.

Oh boy.

According to the FIA report both Lewis and Bottas had entirely new PUs, including ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K etc. And according to an earlier report those are a new spec.

So call me cynical...


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:45 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Just read that Lewis said they had no upgrades here but just working with what they have.

Oh boy.

According to the FIA report both Lewis and Bottas had entirely new PUs, including ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K etc. And according to an earlier report those are a new spec.

So call me cynical...


Does 'new' and 'upgrade' mean the same thing? ie it could be 'new old stock'?


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:53 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Just read that Lewis said they had no upgrades here but just working with what they have.

Oh boy.

According to the FIA report both Lewis and Bottas had entirely new PUs, including ICE, MGU-H, MGU-K etc. And according to an earlier report those are a new spec.

So call me cynical...


Does 'new' and 'upgrade' mean the same thing? ie it could be 'new old stock'?

could do, but according to AMuS they brought a new spec


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 4:56 pm 
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I'd be surprised if AMuS was wrong to be fair as they have close ties to Mercedes engineers. Also the Ferrari upgrade didn't make a dent which is suspicious if Mercedes didn't have an update as well.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:01 pm 
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This is Vettels worst track so I wouldn't write Ferrari off just yet. If he was his usual 0.3 up on Kimi then he would have been up there keeping Hamilton honest. Kimi is beating him 3-0 at Silverstone in qualifying, Webber won there in 2010 and 2012. Vettel has struggled at Silverstone, so its not really a baronmeter of where the car is at. Kimi was where he has been all season today.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 16, 2017 11:34 pm 
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lamo wrote:
This is Vettels worst track so I wouldn't write Ferrari off just yet. If he was his usual 0.3 up on Kimi then he would have been up there keeping Hamilton honest. Kimi is beating him 3-0 at Silverstone in qualifying, Webber won there in 2010 and 2012. Vettel has struggled at Silverstone, so its not really a baronmeter of where the car is at. Kimi was where he has been all season today.

Hope so man :thumbup:


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:21 am 
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mds wrote:
This was my idea already after Russia: the Mercedes is potentially the fastest car. If and when they get on top of tyres/setup, it's over for Ferrari.


Quoting myself from a while ago.
It's happening. No matter if Silverstone is arguably Sebs worst track - Monaco is five races ago and since then Ferrari have clearly been worse than Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:40 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
I'd be surprised if AMuS was wrong to be fair as they have close ties to Mercedes engineers. Also the Ferrari upgrade didn't make a dent which is suspicious if Mercedes didn't have an update as well.

Quote from JA:

Mercedes didn’t bring an upgrade to this race and they say that the new engine wasn’t worth much in terms of additional power.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... ari-tyres/

Although it dismisses the power upgrade as minor it does at least confirm that there was one. And even a minor upgrade on an already class-leading PU is still bad news for everybody else.

There was a moment right near the beginning of the race when Bottas breezed by a Mercedes customer (Perez, I think?), without even using DRS, and Crofty commented on what an obvious difference there was between works and customer units, which DiResta was quick to downplay. If Mercedes' works team were the only ones with the upgrade, that might account for the performance disparity and would indicate that it was worth something quite detectable


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 6:51 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'd be surprised if AMuS was wrong to be fair as they have close ties to Mercedes engineers. Also the Ferrari upgrade didn't make a dent which is suspicious if Mercedes didn't have an update as well.

Quote from JA:

Mercedes didn’t bring an upgrade to this race and they say that the new engine wasn’t worth much in terms of additional power.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... ari-tyres/

Although it dismisses the power upgrade as minor it does at least confirm that there was one. And even a minor upgrade on an already class-leading PU is still bad news for everybody else.

There was a moment right near the beginning of the race when Bottas breezed by a Mercedes customer (Perez, I think?), without even using DRS, and Crofty commented on what an obvious difference there was between works and customer units, which DiResta was quick to downplay. If Mercedes' works team were the only ones with the upgrade, that might account for the performance disparity and would indicate that it was worth something quite detectable


I'd almost bet that JA didn't ask the right question there...
If he had asked about power delivery, I reckon there would be a different answer ;)

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 7:18 am 
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Zoue wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I'd be surprised if AMuS was wrong to be fair as they have close ties to Mercedes engineers. Also the Ferrari upgrade didn't make a dent which is suspicious if Mercedes didn't have an update as well.

Quote from JA:

Mercedes didn’t bring an upgrade to this race and they say that the new engine wasn’t worth much in terms of additional power.

https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/07/ ... ari-tyres/

Although it dismisses the power upgrade as minor it does at least confirm that there was one. And even a minor upgrade on an already class-leading PU is still bad news for everybody else.

There was a moment right near the beginning of the race when Bottas breezed by a Mercedes customer (Perez, I think?), without even using DRS, and Crofty commented on what an obvious difference there was between works and customer units, which DiResta was quick to downplay. If Mercedes' works team were the only ones with the upgrade, that might account for the performance disparity and would indicate that it was worth something quite detectable


Maybe DiResta played it down because Perez defended it really poorly. This is what I like about Verstappen, at least he covers the inside line. Other drivers just decide what they do depending on the driver attacking. Plus Crofty knows less about F1 than the majority of F1 fans, his great at knowing what the the Sky team had for breakfast though.
It wasn't quite breezed past though.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2017 4:21 pm 
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First 4 races avg. qualifying gap Mercedes to Ferrari...0.141.
4 races since Monaco avg. qualifying gap to Ferrari.....0.530.

After Monaco the FIA clamped down on something extra Ferrari were doing with oil and Merc altered their hpc suspension to cure their tyre woes.

That does look pretty ominous to be fair but there was 1 huuuge gap, 1 very big gap, 1 similar gap to the first avg and 1 practically nothing in it gap (but it was a bit of a weird session).

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:00 pm 
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Now we are half way through the season which tracks do we think will suit each car best?

I've seen Hungary and Singapore mentioned for Ferrari, What about Suzuka?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 5:22 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Now we are half way through the season which tracks do we think will suit each car best?

I've seen Hungary and Singapore mentioned for Ferrari, What about Suzuka?


I'll go...

As long as it's warm and dry for Ferrari...

Hun
Sin
Jpn
Bra


Any weather for Merc...

Spa
Mon
Cota
Mex
Mal


Undecided on AD as I think Ferrari will suit S3 which is where a lot of the lap time comes from even though the rest suits Mercedes as will the temps.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 6:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Now we are half way through the season which tracks do we think will suit each car best?

I've seen Hungary and Singapore mentioned for Ferrari, What about Suzuka?


I'll go...

As long as it's warm and dry for Ferrari...

Hun
Sin
Jpn
Bra


Any weather for Merc...

Spa
Mon
Cota
Mex
Mal


Undecided on AD as I think Ferrari will suit S3 which is where a lot of the lap time comes from even though the rest suits Mercedes as will the temps.


I think Malaysia may suit Ferrari whilst Suzuka will suit Merc. Suzuka is pretty similar to Silvestone in terms of setup.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:14 pm 
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Isn't Malaysia a lot cooler with its end of season slot?

Singapore will be Vettels, great track for him (his best probably) and Mercedes' weakest over the last few seasons.

Hungary, I have thought Ferrari all year but I would not at all be surprised with a Hamilton pole and win with the current form of Mercedes and Hamilton is good in Hungary.

My gut feeling is that Mercedes will steam roll the season from here on out. Vettel could still sneak the title with podiums and 1 or 2 wins if Mercedes are unreliable and make errors. Mercedes should have had 4 one-two's in the last 5 races really. Ferrari need a monster update and/or some luck. Vettel has just 1 win in the last 7 at Monaco.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 7:22 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Now we are half way through the season which tracks do we think will suit each car best?

I've seen Hungary and Singapore mentioned for Ferrari, What about Suzuka?

Suzuka, power track, belongs to Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2017 9:15 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Now we are half way through the season which tracks do we think will suit each car best?

I've seen Hungary and Singapore mentioned for Ferrari, What about Suzuka?


I'll go...

As long as it's warm and dry for Ferrari...

Hun
Sin
Jpn
Bra


Any weather for Merc...

Spa
Mon
Cota
Mex
Mal


Undecided on AD as I think Ferrari will suit S3 which is where a lot of the lap time comes from even though the rest suits Mercedes as will the temps.


I think Malaysia may suit Ferrari whilst Suzuka will suit Merc. Suzuka is pretty similar to Silvestone in terms of setup.


I was just going by a rule of thumb between chassis tracks and power but there's odd sectors in all of them that will favour the other.

McLaren were well fancied at Suzuka and got a lot of stick on the basis it should have been a chassis track was driving my thinking but yeah Merc could smash S1 especially but S3 also.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 12:23 am 
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http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 04445.html

Just needs to be translated if anyone wants to read it.

High tire pressures help Mercedes

In this speed range, power and output are balanced. The aerodynamics of the Mercedes W08 fit perfectly for these requirements. The car is long and produces a lot of downforce over the extra surface of the ground. It is little employed, and is thus little in the wind. So you do not have to go to the limit with the wing adjustment. Conclusion: air resistance good, downforce also.
Ferrari also has power, but because of the shorter car and the stronger employment has to get more downforce on the wings. This is more successful than at Red Bull, where the car is even shorter, the job even more powerful, and the engine behind 30 hp lag behind. Approximately equal speeds at the beginning and at the end of the hangar straights betrayed the fact that both teams had finally opted for less downforce. At least in training, when the grip of fresh tires allows this. In the race, you can still correct the front wing setting at the front.
Two statements also fit with the theory. Sebastian Vettel revealed that he has won in Copse Corner 10 km / h on the Mercedes. It did not help him. Copse Corner is now a straight line. In the curves below 250 km / h too much time was lost. Red Bull experienced the same break land. "We were the more downforce we gave it, the slower."
One important factor per Mercedes comes from the tires. In Silverstone, Pirelli knew nothing. The tire pressures were 22.5 PSI at the front and 20.5 PSI at the rear as high as not long ago. This is coming from Mercedes. Also with tire wear. In 2015 and 2016, none managed as well as the silver arrows with high pressures. Only since Pirelli has dared to do more, the pendulum is changing. In Spielberg, for example, they were lower than a PSI lower. The more the tire rolls, the more comfortable Ferrari and Red Bull feel.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 4:19 pm 
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From what I understand and based on my own analysis (in my head thinking about the races thus far), Mercedes have a slight edge on overall pace when compared to Ferrari.

In qualifying trim I usually expect the Merc to be 2-3 tenths faster (the lead Merc) than the lead Ferrari.

We saw the biggest gap Merc have had to Ferrari all season at SIlverstone in terms of ultimate pace and in Monaco we saw the biggest gap Ferrari have had to Merc so far this season.

Every race up until Austria was probably very close in terms of race pace. Canada was skewed because of the Vettel front wing incident on the first lap so it was hard to gauge comparitive race pace.

Austria was seperated in Quai by a few hundreths and the race win by less than half a second.

Silverstone was the first real time I think Ferrari didn't 'turn up' however Kimi R was still only 12 seconds or so behind Hamilton when his tyre went pop and Vettel usually has a better race pace so in his hands without the Max battle and a better start he may have only been 6-8 seconds off him at the end but Merc definatley with the advantage.

I think there are probably a few things which may have removed a bit of wind from the Ferrari sail of late:

Oil burning (if they were)
Changes to the floor
Tyre pressures

The last one I think is the killer one. I read somewhere that Pirelli are quite conservative with tyre pressures on a Friday while gathering data and this suits the Mercs more and this is why Merc lobby hard each weekend for them to stay the same. The Ferrari works the tyres better when the pressures are slightly lower and this usually occurs on Saturday morning when Pirelli announce any lowering of pressures.

Alas all will be revealed this weekend in Hungary with temps expected around 30 centigrade and the track a lot tighter which may play into the short wheel base argument in Ferrari's favour. But if Merc really have sorted their tyre issues....Only time will tell.......


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 8:27 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/warum-war-mercedes-in-silverstone-so-schnell-12204445.html

Just needs to be translated if anyone wants to read it.

High tire pressures help Mercedes

In this speed range, power and output are balanced. The aerodynamics of the Mercedes W08 fit perfectly for these requirements. The car is long and produces a lot of downforce over the extra surface of the ground. It is little employed, and is thus little in the wind. So you do not have to go to the limit with the wing adjustment. Conclusion: air resistance good, downforce also.
Ferrari also has power, but because of the shorter car and the stronger employment has to get more downforce on the wings. This is more successful than at Red Bull, where the car is even shorter, the job even more powerful, and the engine behind 30 hp lag behind. Approximately equal speeds at the beginning and at the end of the hangar straights betrayed the fact that both teams had finally opted for less downforce. At least in training, when the grip of fresh tires allows this. In the race, you can still correct the front wing setting at the front.
Two statements also fit with the theory. Sebastian Vettel revealed that he has won in Copse Corner 10 km / h on the Mercedes. It did not help him. Copse Corner is now a straight line. In the curves below 250 km / h too much time was lost. Red Bull experienced the same break land. "We were the more downforce we gave it, the slower."
One important factor per Mercedes comes from the tires. In Silverstone, Pirelli knew nothing. The tire pressures were 22.5 PSI at the front and 20.5 PSI at the rear as high as not long ago. This is coming from Mercedes. Also with tire wear. In 2015 and 2016, none managed as well as the silver arrows with high pressures. Only since Pirelli has dared to do more, the pendulum is changing. In Spielberg, for example, they were lower than a PSI lower. The more the tire rolls, the more comfortable Ferrari and Red Bull feel.

I find this incredibly annoying and frustrating if true. The teams spend hundreds of millions developing their cars to work under the narrowest of parameters and it's all blown to hell by an external supplier -Pirelli in this instance - mucking about with tyre pressures and dictating ones which have a severe impact on a car's performance.

The teams should be allowed to control their own pressures. It shouldnt be left to a role of the dice as to whether they are competitive on any given occasion


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 9:49 pm 
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Posts: 216
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/warum-war-mercedes-in-silverstone-so-schnell-12204445.html

Just needs to be translated if anyone wants to read it.

High tire pressures help Mercedes

In this speed range, power and output are balanced. The aerodynamics of the Mercedes W08 fit perfectly for these requirements. The car is long and produces a lot of downforce over the extra surface of the ground. It is little employed, and is thus little in the wind. So you do not have to go to the limit with the wing adjustment. Conclusion: air resistance good, downforce also.
Ferrari also has power, but because of the shorter car and the stronger employment has to get more downforce on the wings. This is more successful than at Red Bull, where the car is even shorter, the job even more powerful, and the engine behind 30 hp lag behind. Approximately equal speeds at the beginning and at the end of the hangar straights betrayed the fact that both teams had finally opted for less downforce. At least in training, when the grip of fresh tires allows this. In the race, you can still correct the front wing setting at the front.
Two statements also fit with the theory. Sebastian Vettel revealed that he has won in Copse Corner 10 km / h on the Mercedes. It did not help him. Copse Corner is now a straight line. In the curves below 250 km / h too much time was lost. Red Bull experienced the same break land. "We were the more downforce we gave it, the slower."
One important factor per Mercedes comes from the tires. In Silverstone, Pirelli knew nothing. The tire pressures were 22.5 PSI at the front and 20.5 PSI at the rear as high as not long ago. This is coming from Mercedes. Also with tire wear. In 2015 and 2016, none managed as well as the silver arrows with high pressures. Only since Pirelli has dared to do more, the pendulum is changing. In Spielberg, for example, they were lower than a PSI lower. The more the tire rolls, the more comfortable Ferrari and Red Bull feel.

I find this incredibly annoying and frustrating if true. The teams spend hundreds of millions developing their cars to work under the narrowest of parameters and it's all blown to hell by an external supplier -Pirelli in this instance - mucking about with tyre pressures and dictating ones which have a severe impact on a car's performance.

The teams should be allowed to control their own pressures. It shouldnt be left to a role of the dice as to whether they are competitive on any given occasion

High tyre pressures were around last year and were clearly going to come into this year due to so many unknowns in how the tyres would perform due to limited testing on actual 2017 cars.
The teams always pushed for the pressures to drop, so once pirelli got a proper understanding of how the tyres are performing were likely to begin dropping them.

The teams will have know this before committing to design, it's up to them to do the best job and all had the same knowledge of the tyres and problems from lack of testing....

Any supplier would have had issues from the restrictions on them, not the fault of Pirelli

*Edit*

Also they have to make sure the tyres operate safely, the higher pressures ensure this so they are forced to enforce it


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:20 pm 
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Joined: Fri Mar 04, 2016 8:52 pm
Posts: 2248
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/warum-war-mercedes-in-silverstone-so-schnell-12204445.html

Just needs to be translated if anyone wants to read it.

High tire pressures help Mercedes

In this speed range, power and output are balanced. The aerodynamics of the Mercedes W08 fit perfectly for these requirements. The car is long and produces a lot of downforce over the extra surface of the ground. It is little employed, and is thus little in the wind. So you do not have to go to the limit with the wing adjustment. Conclusion: air resistance good, downforce also.
Ferrari also has power, but because of the shorter car and the stronger employment has to get more downforce on the wings. This is more successful than at Red Bull, where the car is even shorter, the job even more powerful, and the engine behind 30 hp lag behind. Approximately equal speeds at the beginning and at the end of the hangar straights betrayed the fact that both teams had finally opted for less downforce. At least in training, when the grip of fresh tires allows this. In the race, you can still correct the front wing setting at the front.
Two statements also fit with the theory. Sebastian Vettel revealed that he has won in Copse Corner 10 km / h on the Mercedes. It did not help him. Copse Corner is now a straight line. In the curves below 250 km / h too much time was lost. Red Bull experienced the same break land. "We were the more downforce we gave it, the slower."
One important factor per Mercedes comes from the tires. In Silverstone, Pirelli knew nothing. The tire pressures were 22.5 PSI at the front and 20.5 PSI at the rear as high as not long ago. This is coming from Mercedes. Also with tire wear. In 2015 and 2016, none managed as well as the silver arrows with high pressures. Only since Pirelli has dared to do more, the pendulum is changing. In Spielberg, for example, they were lower than a PSI lower. The more the tire rolls, the more comfortable Ferrari and Red Bull feel.

I find this incredibly annoying and frustrating if true. The teams spend hundreds of millions developing their cars to work under the narrowest of parameters and it's all blown to hell by an external supplier -Pirelli in this instance - mucking about with tyre pressures and dictating ones which have a severe impact on a car's performance.

The teams should be allowed to control their own pressures. It shouldnt be left to a role of the dice as to whether they are competitive on any given occasion


I know tyre pressures have been changed during a Grand Prix weekend a number of times this season, I'm sure Pirelli lower the tyre pressures on a Saturday morning which benefits Ferrari.

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Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 24, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 4:59 pm
Posts: 216
F1_Ernie wrote:
Zoue wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/formel-1/warum-war-mercedes-in-silverstone-so-schnell-12204445.html

Just needs to be translated if anyone wants to read it.

High tire pressures help Mercedes

In this speed range, power and output are balanced. The aerodynamics of the Mercedes W08 fit perfectly for these requirements. The car is long and produces a lot of downforce over the extra surface of the ground. It is little employed, and is thus little in the wind. So you do not have to go to the limit with the wing adjustment. Conclusion: air resistance good, downforce also.
Ferrari also has power, but because of the shorter car and the stronger employment has to get more downforce on the wings. This is more successful than at Red Bull, where the car is even shorter, the job even more powerful, and the engine behind 30 hp lag behind. Approximately equal speeds at the beginning and at the end of the hangar straights betrayed the fact that both teams had finally opted for less downforce. At least in training, when the grip of fresh tires allows this. In the race, you can still correct the front wing setting at the front.
Two statements also fit with the theory. Sebastian Vettel revealed that he has won in Copse Corner 10 km / h on the Mercedes. It did not help him. Copse Corner is now a straight line. In the curves below 250 km / h too much time was lost. Red Bull experienced the same break land. "We were the more downforce we gave it, the slower."
One important factor per Mercedes comes from the tires. In Silverstone, Pirelli knew nothing. The tire pressures were 22.5 PSI at the front and 20.5 PSI at the rear as high as not long ago. This is coming from Mercedes. Also with tire wear. In 2015 and 2016, none managed as well as the silver arrows with high pressures. Only since Pirelli has dared to do more, the pendulum is changing. In Spielberg, for example, they were lower than a PSI lower. The more the tire rolls, the more comfortable Ferrari and Red Bull feel.

I find this incredibly annoying and frustrating if true. The teams spend hundreds of millions developing their cars to work under the narrowest of parameters and it's all blown to hell by an external supplier -Pirelli in this instance - mucking about with tyre pressures and dictating ones which have a severe impact on a car's performance.

The teams should be allowed to control their own pressures. It shouldnt be left to a role of the dice as to whether they are competitive on any given occasion


I know tyre pressures have been changed during a Grand Prix weekend a number of times this season, I'm sure Pirelli lower the tyre pressures on a Saturday morning which benefits Ferrari.

But as I said before expected.
Once the teams have done some real running on each circuit Pirelli can look at the data and make decisions that could have been risky before


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 25, 2017 2:08 pm 
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Posts: 2248
http://www.skysports.com/f1/news/32420/ ... nd-ferrari

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Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


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