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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:55 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Does this mean that Ferrari are cheating?

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will :-P

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 11:59 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Does this mean that Ferrari are cheating?

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will :-P

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:07 am 
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https://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2017/09/ ... eers-view/

Not sure if I have posted this before but I think it's a good read.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:15 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Does this mean that Ferrari are cheating?

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will :-P

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


I'm sure there was a good article I saw regarding the differences between Ferrari and Mercedes in how they do oil burning.

I read earlier in Canada 4 Ferrari engined cars was found to have excessive oil residue in their exhausts. That was when it was thought Ferrari had caught up with Mercedes power wise.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:40 am 
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So, when Ferrari finnally got even with Mercedes secret weapon FIA took it away from Ferrari but couldn't do it to Mercedes?
And people still believe Ferrari is faster than Mercedes amazing..

Really wonder what this will do to even out the field in 2018 and a bit sad for what has been this engine eras secret.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:11 pm 
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Vettel:

Quote:
I believe we have the best car in terms of overall package.


https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/08/29 ... -best-car/

Funny how all his fans seem to disagree with him all of a sudden. :lol:


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:15 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Vettel:

Quote:
I believe we have the best car in terms of overall package.


https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/08/29 ... -best-car/

Funny how all his fans seem to disagree with him all of a sudden. :lol:


Well, I think he was validated somewhat in the stretch that followed but only if one assumes Ferrari suffered from bad luck and errors. Maybe instead there are fundamental reliability problems with the car (PU) and therefore they haven't had the best car even if when Ferrari get it right they might have had the best overall potential package for the last 5 races.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Mercedes/Hamilton had their own issues earlier in the season.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:57 pm 
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davidheath461 wrote:
Vettel:

Quote:
I believe we have the best car in terms of overall package.


https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/08/29 ... -best-car/

Funny how all his fans seem to disagree with him all of a sudden. :lol:

Funny how you missed the very next sentence:

Quote:
There’s still something missing but the guys in Maranello are very motivated


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Does this mean that Ferrari are cheating?

From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will :-P

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


It's really not, the delivery method is different between Mercedes and Ferrari but it's the same goal and same result. Much like the suspension. That's why neither are being run for fear of protest rather than just RB's like you're making out even though hydraulic suspensions are still not actually banned.

I think Merc claimed they weren't running it for weight concerns IIRC.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 9:44 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will :-P

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


I'm sure there was a good article I saw regarding the differences between Ferrari and Mercedes in how they do oil burning.

I read earlier in Canada 4 Ferrari engined cars was found to have excessive oil residue in their exhausts. That was when it was thought Ferrari had caught up with Mercedes power wise.


Was it this one from Italy?. https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/caso- ... lli-947013


Quote:
There are two perfectly legitimate ways of adding "oil" to the fuel: pull it into the combustion chamber from the segments (this is either the Mercedes system) or "burn" it into the base by gasifying it and then firing it into the power plenum as it recovers everything the lubricant that would otherwise be dispersed on the track (this would be the Ferrari solution).



Or this from Scarbs?. http://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/3581 ... situation/

Quote:
It appears that Mercedes found out quite early that allowing oil to pass into the combustion process could be a way to introduce additives not allowed into the fuel to improve performance. As the oil rules are different to that of fuel, oil could carry additives that otherwise couldn't be used in the engine. The rules do not allow oil to purposely introduced into the combustion process, so a roundabout way had to be used to get this to work.

Luckily the venting of the crankcases allows a controlled path to get oil into the combustion. Inside the crankcases oil is used to lubricate the crankshaft and oil sprays are used to cool the underside of the pistons; all of this oil is thrashed about by the high revving engine creating an oil mist. Teams also like to run a partial vacuum inside the crankcase to reduce power loss from moving air around inside. This oil-air mix can be vented and the rules demand this must be passed into the engine airbox, so as not to spray the track with oil mist.

What's more, the vent from the crankcase into the airbox is allowed to have a solenoid valve to manage the crankcase pressure. With this set-up the engine developer can create an engine map where the solenoid opens to allow more oil mist to pass from the crankcase into the airbox, thus allowing the additives in the oil to pass into the cylinders with the fuel and air to create a more powerful/knock resistant mix. This special engine map can be used whenever the drivers needs full power, either in qualifying or tactically during the race. Obviously, the map cannot be used constantly due to excessive oil consumption and the added stress on the engine.

It is believed that this process has been has been used since the inception of the current engine formula back in 2014, by Mercedes, while Ferrari was late to catch up to the practice, which has accentuated its struggles compared to Mercedes during Q3, when the more powerful engine mapping can be deployed, giving some two to three tenths per lap, so estimations make the mapping worth some 20-30hp.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 12:04 am 
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mds wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/marchionne-ferrari-at-the-same-level-as-mercedes/

Looks like the Ferrari boss thinks differently to most of the fans.
Quote:
He added: “Without being arrogant, I think it (the car) is at the same level if not better than Mercedes’ today.


While he could have a point with regards to race pace, you have to put into context what is being said and who is saying it. This is Ferari's big chief. No matter what he actually thinks, he has to give out an aura of faith and trust, because verything he says trickles down and impacts all the employees.

I would much rather look at what's in front of us than to believe blindly those who are deeply invested in it.

While I completely agree that you have to be careful who is saying what, and that it is in Arrivabene's interests to oversell the car, in all due respect, half the people on here are seeing precisely what he says in front of us on many weekends. If he was saying something no-one was seeing you would have a stronger argument.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 1:29 pm 
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Does anybody know what was "wrong" with Hamiltons car in Monaco? He was on the radio all qualifying complaining about something being wrong with the car. After the race, Mercedes said they had discovered what was wrong with it after qualifying but were unable to do anything about it because the car was in Parc Ferme and had to race with it. Since Monaco, Hamilton has had no issues in qualifying.

I've also just realised the two times Hamilton was way under par, Monaco and Russia - its the only times this year the Mercedes drivers did an out lap, fast paced warm up lap and then flying lap. Ferrari did out lap, flying lap at both these races. Was Hamilton unable to work the tyres into the window on both these occasions? Did Mercedes solve this problem post Monaco?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
davidheath461 wrote:
Vettel:

Quote:
I believe we have the best car in terms of overall package.


https://www.grandprix247.com/2017/08/29 ... -best-car/

Funny how all his fans seem to disagree with him all of a sudden. :lol:

Funny how you missed the very next sentence:

Quote:
There’s still something missing but the guys in Maranello are very motivated


Funny how the second statement does not contradict the first in any way. In fact, in Vettel's assessment of the Ferrari being the best car, he must have already factored in the missing something. Good lord, what a stonking good car it must be! :-P


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:06 pm 
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Ferrari got the best car.

Mercedes got the best driver.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Ferrari got the best car.

Mercedes got the best driver.

This year Mercedes got the best car and driver.

I actually think in terms of pure pace & consistency of pace Vettel has been better, but he's lost more points through silly errors. It's funny because if you'd given those descriptions at the beginning of the year I'd have been pretty confident the faster more error prone driver would have been Hamilton and the slower but solid & ultra consistent driver would have been Vettel, so it's the exact opposite of how I would have guessed.

We're talking vey slim margins though. Vettel has been pretty solid other than 2 silly mishaps (one of which was a racing incident) and Hamilton has been very fast all season long.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:49 pm 
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Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Ferrari got the best car.

Mercedes got the best driver.

This year Mercedes got the best car and driver.

I actually think in terms of pure pace & consistency of pace Vettel has been better, but he's lost more points through silly errors. It's funny because if you'd given those descriptions at the beginning of the year I'd have been pretty confident the faster more error prone driver would have been Hamilton and the slower but solid & ultra consistent driver would have been Vettel, so it's the exact opposite of how I would have guessed.

We're talking vey slim margins though. Vettel has been pretty solid other than 2 silly mishaps (one of which was a racing incident) and Hamilton has been very fast all season long.


What? How is losing more points through own fault than your opponent making you have better consistency?

I think if you'd put Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso or Ricciardo in the Ferrari you'd see it's true pace.
Not that Vettel is slow, or not a top driver. Just not quite as quick as the top 4. (Not a dig at Vettel, I know it might seem so, but I rate him as the 5th best on the grid).

As I've said earlier the Mercedes hs been quicker at a few tracks. But the Ferrari is the better overall package (easier to set up, kinder on the tyres, not as sensitive to different tracks) it's just recently that the Ferrari has had problems with reliability, which might make them more equal. The Ferrari has a broader performance-window while the Mercedes is more ''spiky''.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:52 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
So, when Ferrari finnally got even with Mercedes secret weapon FIA took it away from Ferrari but couldn't do it to Mercedes?
And people still believe Ferrari is faster than Mercedes amazing..

Really wonder what this will do to even out the field in 2018 and a bit sad for what has been this engine eras secret.

Was that not because Ferrari had a separate oil tank that was used only to fuel the car?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:55 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
From what I can make out pretty much yeah, or thoroughly testing how far the rules bend if you will :-P

I'm fascinated to know what Mercedes are doing with their oil, all I've seen are articles on how Ferrari are doing it with "Mercedes do it differently" but no explanation as to how, it's like no one can work it out (or more likely I'm not reading the right articles). I'm also looking forward to the oil burning tricks being taken away, hopefully Mercedes and Ferrari will lose a lot of their advantage and McLaren/Red Bull can get in the mix.

I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


It's really not, the delivery method is different between Mercedes and Ferrari but it's the same goal and same result. Much like the suspension. That's why neither are being run for fear of protest rather than just RB's like you're making out even though hydraulic suspensions are still not actually banned.

I think Merc claimed they weren't running it for weight concerns IIRC.

The different delivery method being that Ferrari were only using the oil as fuel?

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 7:56 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Warheart01 wrote:
Ferrari got the best car.

Mercedes got the best driver.

This year Mercedes got the best car and driver.

I actually think in terms of pure pace & consistency of pace Vettel has been better, but he's lost more points through silly errors. It's funny because if you'd given those descriptions at the beginning of the year I'd have been pretty confident the faster more error prone driver would have been Hamilton and the slower but solid & ultra consistent driver would have been Vettel, so it's the exact opposite of how I would have guessed.

We're talking vey slim margins though. Vettel has been pretty solid other than 2 silly mishaps (one of which was a racing incident) and Hamilton has been very fast all season long.


What? How is losing more points through own fault than your opponent making you have better consistency?

I think if you'd put Hamilton, Verstappen, Alonso or Ricciardo in the Ferrari you'd see it's true pace.
Not that Vettel is slow, or not a top driver. Just not quite as quick as the top 4. (Not a dig at Vettel, I know it might seem so, but I rate him as the 5th best on the grid).

As I've said earlier the Mercedes hs been quicker at a few tracks. But the Ferrari is the better overall package (easier to set up, kinder on the tyres, not as sensitive to different tracks) it's just recently that the Ferrari has had problems with reliability, which might make them more equal. The Ferrari has a broader performance-window while the Mercedes is more ''spiky''.

I said consistency of pace, not just general consistency.

Purely in terms of pace I think Vettel has edged it, but he's let himself down massively while Hamilton has been pretty much faultless making Hamilton the driver of the season IMO (so far at least, things could change in the coming races but I don't expect them to).


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:00 pm 
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Warheart01 wrote:
As I've said earlier the Mercedes hs been quicker at a few tracks. But the Ferrari is the better overall package (easier to set up, kinder on the tyres, not as sensitive to different tracks) it's just recently that the Ferrari has had problems with reliability, which might make them more equal. The Ferrari has a broader performance-window while the Mercedes is more ''spiky''.

The myth that just won't die. There have been just as many weekends where Ferrari has been way off the pace as Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:04 pm 
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Curious what exactly makes you think Vettel would have the edge in pace over Hamilton? Vettel is very good when on it and confident. Think his season with DR was a bit of a blip and he wasn't at his best. But even at his best I'm not convinced purely his pace would allow him to win out against the likes of Hamilton and Riccardo. Perhaps his attention for detail over a season though but he would have to fight for every inch in my mind.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 8:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not good with technical things, the impression I get is that Ferrari don't know what Mercedes are doing so they just come out with their more blatant version.

Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


It's really not, the delivery method is different between Mercedes and Ferrari but it's the same goal and same result. Much like the suspension. That's why neither are being run for fear of protest rather than just RB's like you're making out even though hydraulic suspensions are still not actually banned.

I think Merc claimed they weren't running it for weight concerns IIRC.

The different delivery method being that Ferrari were only using the oil as fuel?


Who said they were only using the oil for fuel?. They're obviously going to need oil in there for it's normal purpose but if you're meaning did they bring extra in another tank then I obviously don't know but that was the suspicion after Canada I think.

There's nothing clear as both teams deny doing it even when they're talking about the new oil burn limits they describe it as 'consumption' instead. If it was legit what they were doing then you'd think they'd stop denying it and describing it as ghost stories.

Maybe both feel a little uneasy but I'm a bit torn between whether its circumventing the fuel flow limits and illegal or just another loophole being exploited from poorly thought out rules and patting them on the back for the ingenuity.

You can't congratulate or absolve one team and not the other though in my eyes, they've both been at it to varying degrees.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:07 pm 
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WHoff78 wrote:
Curious what exactly makes you think Vettel would have the edge in pace over Hamilton? Vettel is very good when on it and confident. Think his season with DR was a bit of a blip and he wasn't at his best. But even at his best I'm not convinced purely his pace would allow him to win out against the likes of Hamilton and Riccardo. Perhaps his attention for detail over a season though but he would have to fight for every inch in my mind.

Webber had a pretty decent one-lap reputation and Vettel hammered him. I don't know that I've seen anything that says Ricciardo is definitely better?

Hamilton is a little more tricky. He's clearly an excellent qualifier. I'm inclined to put them very close but I think it's hard to say. I would say Hamilton at this point looks a little more reliable on that score, although I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Vettel is over-driving the car in an effort to close the gap, thereby making more mistakes


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:22 pm 
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AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah he misread what was said to keep up the narrative that the Ferrari is the inferior car.


Why is that a narrative, isn't there a gap between Mercedes and Ferrari?
The majority here supports the version that Mercedes is faster, so what's wrong with that?
You mostly seem unbiased so please enlighten me


:lol:

that's a first for you,pokerman!

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:25 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
WHoff78 wrote:
Curious what exactly makes you think Vettel would have the edge in pace over Hamilton? Vettel is very good when on it and confident. Think his season with DR was a bit of a blip and he wasn't at his best. But even at his best I'm not convinced purely his pace would allow him to win out against the likes of Hamilton and Riccardo. Perhaps his attention for detail over a season though but he would have to fight for every inch in my mind.

Webber had a pretty decent one-lap reputation and Vettel hammered him. I don't know that I've seen anything that says Ricciardo is definitely better?

Hamilton is a little more tricky. He's clearly an excellent qualifier. I'm inclined to put them very close but I think it's hard to say. I would say Hamilton at this point looks a little more reliable on that score, although I wouldn't rule out the possibility that Vettel is over-driving the car in an effort to close the gap, thereby making more mistakes

Fair for Riccardo. For me I can accept that Vettel had an off season and could probably come out on top over a year, but feel we would have seen the pace at times even if he was off colour. And more often than not in dry conditions he didn't seem to have an answer for Riccardo's pace. Maybe I have to rewatch some of it. Perhaps he is making the mistakes this season because he has the pressure of a competitor in similar machinery.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 11:41 pm 
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Scarbs seems to think Ferrari are still running there new engines at the old 1.2 oil burn limit, apparently the new ICE 4 they installed into Vettels car was the same spec ICE as number 3 and therefore it did not need to need to meet the new 0.9 limit as this spec of engine had been homologated previously. I did not realise the rules worked like that. Although Scarbs isn't sure himself. I was under the impression that any engine introduced after Monza had to meet the new 0.9 limit.

This would suggest that the ability to burn the 0.3 extra oil was greater than any other gains made in ICE development, so the lower spec continued?

He speaks about it at 3;45 in this video;

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/video/mai ... 99263/?s=2

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:09 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Black_Flag_11 wrote:
Possibly but as Lotus points out they have the knowledge of what Mercedes were doing initially with the 2014 engine. IIRC Mercedes have been doing this from the start of the hybrid era and Ferrari caught on later (?), so I'd assume Ferrari's concept is largely based on Mercedes. Unless Mercedes have completely changed the way they do it since 2014 of course.

It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


It's really not, the delivery method is different between Mercedes and Ferrari but it's the same goal and same result. Much like the suspension. That's why neither are being run for fear of protest rather than just RB's like you're making out even though hydraulic suspensions are still not actually banned.

I think Merc claimed they weren't running it for weight concerns IIRC.

The different delivery method being that Ferrari were only using the oil as fuel?


Who said they were only using the oil for fuel?. They're obviously going to need oil in there for it's normal purpose but if you're meaning did they bring extra in another tank then I obviously don't know but that was the suspicion after Canada I think.

There's nothing clear as both teams deny doing it even when they're talking about the new oil burn limits they describe it as 'consumption' instead. If it was legit what they were doing then you'd think they'd stop denying it and describing it as ghost stories.

Maybe both feel a little uneasy but I'm a bit torn between whether its circumventing the fuel flow limits and illegal or just another loophole being exploited from poorly thought out rules and patting them on the back for the ingenuity.

You can't congratulate or absolve one team and not the other though in my eyes, they've both been at it to varying degrees.

I believe it was explained on here that Mercedes were burning oil already in the engine being used for lubrication, they could only burn so much otherwise there wouldn't have been enough oil to lubricate the engine itself, whereas Ferrari had a separate oil tank.

I read the technical jargon of what Mercedes are doing but I don't understand the legality of it, it's interesting that Horner wants to get it banned on account it doesn't promote green engines, that's sort of strange because if it was actually illegal then it would be easy to ban.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:13 am 
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Blake wrote:
AnRs wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Yeah he misread what was said to keep up the narrative that the Ferrari is the inferior car.


Why is that a narrative, isn't there a gap between Mercedes and Ferrari?
The majority here supports the version that Mercedes is faster, so what's wrong with that?
You mostly seem unbiased so please enlighten me


:lol:

that's a first for you,pokerman!

Yeah I'm surprised to be given so much leeway. :)

My reference is how you misinterpret what Marchionne said.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 1:07 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
It sounds like what Ferrari are doing is different, a bit like Red Bull with the suspension system, they took what Mercedes were doing one step further to the point were it was being used as a deliberate aerodynamic device and got it banned.


It's really not, the delivery method is different between Mercedes and Ferrari but it's the same goal and same result. Much like the suspension. That's why neither are being run for fear of protest rather than just RB's like you're making out even though hydraulic suspensions are still not actually banned.

I think Merc claimed they weren't running it for weight concerns IIRC.

The different delivery method being that Ferrari were only using the oil as fuel?


Who said they were only using the oil for fuel?. They're obviously going to need oil in there for it's normal purpose but if you're meaning did they bring extra in another tank then I obviously don't know but that was the suspicion after Canada I think.

There's nothing clear as both teams deny doing it even when they're talking about the new oil burn limits they describe it as 'consumption' instead. If it was legit what they were doing then you'd think they'd stop denying it and describing it as ghost stories.

Maybe both feel a little uneasy but I'm a bit torn between whether its circumventing the fuel flow limits and illegal or just another loophole being exploited from poorly thought out rules and patting them on the back for the ingenuity.

You can't congratulate or absolve one team and not the other though in my eyes, they've both been at it to varying degrees.

I believe it was explained on here that Mercedes were burning oil already in the engine being used for lubrication, they could only burn so much otherwise there wouldn't have been enough oil to lubricate the engine itself, whereas Ferrari had a separate oil tank.

I read the technical jargon of what Mercedes are doing but I don't understand the legality of it, it's interesting that Horner wants to get it banned on account it doesn't promote green engines, that's sort of strange because if it was actually illegal then it would be easy to ban.


I think they were burning more as a quick fix to bridge the gap personally yeah, but it's not illegal to have more than one tank and the rumour was Ferrari asked permission for a 3rd and were initially given it but it was taken away before Baku but I don't think any of this was confirmed unless I missed it.

Problem with banning it for the FIA is they can't until they know exactly what's happening and catch someone doing it, and they can't monitor it in action this year and no-ones admitting to doing it so no-ones going to get caught.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 3:34 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
It's really not, the delivery method is different between Mercedes and Ferrari but it's the same goal and same result. Much like the suspension. That's why neither are being run for fear of protest rather than just RB's like you're making out even though hydraulic suspensions are still not actually banned.

I think Merc claimed they weren't running it for weight concerns IIRC.

The different delivery method being that Ferrari were only using the oil as fuel?


Who said they were only using the oil for fuel?. They're obviously going to need oil in there for it's normal purpose but if you're meaning did they bring extra in another tank then I obviously don't know but that was the suspicion after Canada I think.

There's nothing clear as both teams deny doing it even when they're talking about the new oil burn limits they describe it as 'consumption' instead. If it was legit what they were doing then you'd think they'd stop denying it and describing it as ghost stories.

Maybe both feel a little uneasy but I'm a bit torn between whether its circumventing the fuel flow limits and illegal or just another loophole being exploited from poorly thought out rules and patting them on the back for the ingenuity.

You can't congratulate or absolve one team and not the other though in my eyes, they've both been at it to varying degrees.

I believe it was explained on here that Mercedes were burning oil already in the engine being used for lubrication, they could only burn so much otherwise there wouldn't have been enough oil to lubricate the engine itself, whereas Ferrari had a separate oil tank.

I read the technical jargon of what Mercedes are doing but I don't understand the legality of it, it's interesting that Horner wants to get it banned on account it doesn't promote green engines, that's sort of strange because if it was actually illegal then it would be easy to ban.


I think they were burning more as a quick fix to bridge the gap personally yeah, but it's not illegal to have more than one tank and the rumour was Ferrari asked permission for a 3rd and were initially given it but it was taken away before Baku but I don't think any of this was confirmed unless I missed it.

Problem with banning it for the FIA is they can't until they know exactly what's happening and catch someone doing it, and they can't monitor it in action this year and no-ones admitting to doing it so no-ones going to get caught.

I hear there was oil burning in the V8 era as well, I know for instance that waste gases inside the crankcase are routed into the combustion chamber to be burnt, I think that's an environmentally friendly way of dealing with the unwanted gases that need to removed from the crankcase because of the pressure build up.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 4:25 pm 
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Not sure if anyone posted these yet but Scarbs has some really good insight into Ferrari's recent mechanical woes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bz5gX-ii-U8
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfKN_TwfhnY&t=1s


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PostPosted: Mon Oct 16, 2017 5:57 pm 
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I have a funny feeling that Ricciardo simply isn't as good in high downforce cars (2011-2013, 2017-present) as he was in lower downforce cars (2014-2016).

I want him to join Vettel at Ferrari in 2019 to see whether my theory holds any water.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:37 pm 
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Qualifying goes to Mercedes again.

Neither Mercedes drivers improved on their final run, I think they had a much bigger advantage than the 0.200s it showed in the end. Probably closer to 0.500s

To be honest, it's not really a debate anymore. In these high downforce cars, qualifying advantage is simply an enormous game-changer, especially if your nearest competitor isn't any quicker in race pace (if not slower).


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:42 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Qualifying goes to Mercedes again.

Neither Mercedes drivers improved on their final run, I think they had a much bigger advantage than the 0.200s it showed in the end. Probably closer to 0.500s

To be honest, it's not really a debate anymore. In these high downforce cars, qualifying advantage is simply an enormous game-changer, especially if your nearest competitor isn't any quicker in race pace (if not slower).



I find it doubtful given the onboard of Lewis' pole lap - it wasn't extraordinary but it was very sharp - very good. It's possible, since according to your definition "probably closer" can mean a 0.351 advantage and I do feel Vettel's lap might have been even sharper than Hamilton's but would like to see the full onboard and see of these supposed S1-S2 transition struggles he spoke of.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:52 pm 
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Invade wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Qualifying goes to Mercedes again.

Neither Mercedes drivers improved on their final run, I think they had a much bigger advantage than the 0.200s it showed in the end. Probably closer to 0.500s

To be honest, it's not really a debate anymore. In these high downforce cars, qualifying advantage is simply an enormous game-changer, especially if your nearest competitor isn't any quicker in race pace (if not slower).



I find it doubtful given the onboard of Lewis' pole lap - it wasn't extraordinary but it was very sharp - very good. It's possible, since according to your definition "probably closer" can mean a 0.351 advantage and I do feel Vettel's lap might have been even sharper than Hamilton's but would like to see the full onboard and see of these supposed S1-S2 transition struggles he spoke of.


I think Lewis made a mistake somewhere in S3, he lost a couple of tenths its being said on another forum. That's what bankers are for and he nailed that one though.

Not convinced it would have been 5ths but 3.5 or 4 max was possible if Lewis held on I think.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 10:55 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Qualifying goes to Mercedes again.

Neither Mercedes drivers improved on their final run, I think they had a much bigger advantage than the 0.200s it showed in the end. Probably closer to 0.500s

To be honest, it's not really a debate anymore. In these high downforce cars, qualifying advantage is simply an enormous game-changer, especially if your nearest competitor isn't any quicker in race pace (if not slower).

Quite the opposite. The Ferrari had more pace in it. Did you see the massive improvements they made in Q3? Vettel didn't even hook up a decent lap in Q1 or Q2. He was behind Raikkonen until Q3. I think they had just as much pace as the Mercedes. They simply took too long to get up to speed.

Right now, the drivers are making a massive difference in the outcome. It's not the cars. Vettel, Bottas and Kimi are all within 2 tenths of each other while Hamilton is a couple tenths up. I don't think that difference is the car as Vettel still beat out Bottas and Raikkonen was just a tenth down (about where you'd expect them to match-up). If the Merc has an advantage in qualy, it's less than a tenth at this point. For some time now, the Ferrari makes just as big of a performance jump in Q3. Personally I think the order would be the same if all 4 swapped teams.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:00 pm 
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Vettel improved on his final run but so did almost everyone else. In fact, everybody but the Mercedes drivers improved on their final run. If they improved by 0.2-0.3 seconds (as everyone else did thanks to track evolution), then they should have been half a second up the road from Ferrari.

Also Hamilton's final lap was not a good run. He did a 24.8 in the first sector of his final lap, so he should have been on course to improve his lap by 0.2 tenths based on the first sector alone.

I believe that Mercedes' ultimate laptime (best sectors added together) is over 4 tenths quicker than Ferrari. They were constantly making massive gains on Ferrari in S2, where Ferrari was simply too slow on the straights.


Last edited by KingVoid on Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:02 pm 
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What's clear is that Lewis has been metronomic in his qualifying performances. He consistently nailing his "bankers" and often barely improving on it on the second run, while always being consistently fast throughout the sessions. The whole Merc-Hamilton operation in qualifying is extremely strong.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:03 pm 
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Invade wrote:
What's clear is that Lewis has been metronomic in his qualifying performances. He consistently nailing his "bankers" and often barely improving on it on the second run, while always being consistently fast throughout the sessions. The whole Merc-Hamilton operation in qualifying is extremely strong.

Lewis has been very good in qualifying, but today he wasn't particularly good IMO. He messed up his final run completely. If it wasn't for his car advantage he might have lost pole.

A high 32 was possible judging by his sector times.


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