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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:45 am 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. This Championship has been won as much on Saturdays as it has on Sundays, if not more so. Qualifying has had a significant impact on race outcomes and has been a major weapon in Mercedes' armoury.


No it has not. Because the pole sitter has lost the lead pretty often and it has become clear that at almost every race his position will be challenged in the first lap. P2 has never been a bad place to start a race anyway and this is where Vettel has found himself most of the time this year. There is only one venue where you can say pole is vital; Monaco.

It's a massive advantage. I don't know how anyone can deny that, really.


It's an advantage. But to say Vettel lost the championship on Saturday is going too far. Without the errors and breakdowns Vettel would still be in this championship despite being out qualified on Saturday. Even with Hamilton's quali record he would be out of the championship with the errors and breakdowns. It's clear where the big loses have come.

Pole has won 10/18 races thus far so even being off pole you have nearly as gone as chance to win as being on pole.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:48 am 
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It's not worth it guys. Some people just want to make excuses and they've been preparing to do it since before the season even started.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:52 am 
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That start is Russia is quite clearly, conclusively not down to engine power. The gap between them is not roughly the same throughout, Bottas is catching Vettel before he is even past Vettels grid slot, i.e. within the first 4 metres. He then sits in his slipstream for 6 full seconds. 6 seconds of slipstream in these cars is a long long time, especially when you already got a better get away. Notice once Bottas pulls out of the slipstream the rate and which he is overhauling Vettel reduces.

For context of that, Verstappen made an equal start to Vettel in Mexico and 3 seconds of slipstream put him ahead and he had a Renault engine. Is that engine power too?

Given the nature of the Russia track, Vettel needed to make a perfect start and even then he would have gone into turn 1 slightly ahead or alongside Bottas. The fact he made a slightly worse start, it was over. We have seen this in Russia every year and it was only going to be more this year due to the draggier cars.

I am sure Vettel would have more wins if he had more poles, the statistics I gave were to show that he has had track position a lot of the time. My calculation also put his car as pole capable in 39% of the races. To put that into context, Alonso's car in 2010 (a season without DRS) was pole capable about 10% of the time. The same season Hamilton's car 5%. Also Alonso for 2012; 10% again. Those are genuinely huge disadvantages. This year is much more of a marginal one.

Vettel has also started on pole 4 times this year and lost the lead 4 times. Although in Hungary he only lost it for a split second. If it wasn't his team mate, he might have had a more aggressive move put on him. Hungary another example of the slipstream affect - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0 again, another 3 second slipstream.

So Vettel on pole in those other races is far from a done deal to lead after the first lap.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:18 pm 
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There's a much bigger issue lamo; which is the determinism through which you and others assess this. Basically, if someone sets pole that means they had the best car in qualifying (this is the rationale in the thread). Meanwhile the gaps between Hamilton and Vettel this season are not outside the realm of what you would expect if they were in identical machinery (as are the gaps between Vettel and Bottas).


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:25 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.

Vettel had pole 4 times this year but only converted 1 of them into a win, yet if he had 3 more poles that would have been 3 more wins for him apparently?

This measuring straight line speed with engine power also has been debunked on here before, in Spa Mercedes deliberately ran less wing so they could pass and defend on the long straight, also straight line speed is inherent in car design, high rake cars create more downforce but also more drag, the Mercedes car lacks downforce but this enables it to be faster on the straight.

Williams back in 2014 and 2015 were always quicker than Mercedes on the straights this being a trade off of the car lacking downforce in comparison to Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:30 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one



This one can easily be put down to engine power too. Bottas' start wasn't even that much better than Vettel. The gap between them stays roughly the same until they go over 200 kph and the Mercedes power + slipstream kicks in.

Indeed Bottas had 4 kph on Vettel in Russia, which helped him drive straight past on the opening lap.


The second part of Bottas getaway was much better than Vettel's, gets in the slipstream and you don't have much chance.

The commentary even says that Bottas picked up the slipstream, the more powerful Renault engine must have enabled Verstappen to go past Vettel in Mexico?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:11 pm 
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lamo wrote:
That start is Russia is quite clearly, conclusively not down to engine power. The gap between them is not roughly the same throughout, Bottas is catching Vettel before he is even past Vettels grid slot, i.e. within the first 4 metres. He then sits in his slipstream for 6 full seconds. 6 seconds of slipstream in these cars is a long long time, especially when you already got a better get away. Notice once Bottas pulls out of the slipstream the rate and which he is overhauling Vettel reduces.

For context of that, Verstappen made an equal start to Vettel in Mexico and 3 seconds of slipstream put him ahead and he had a Renault engine. Is that engine power too?

Given the nature of the Russia track, Vettel needed to make a perfect start and even then he would have gone into turn 1 slightly ahead or alongside Bottas. The fact he made a slightly worse start, it was over. We have seen this in Russia every year and it was only going to be more this year due to the draggier cars.

I am sure Vettel would have more wins if he had more poles, the statistics I gave were to show that he has had track position a lot of the time. My calculation also put his car as pole capable in 39% of the races. To put that into context, Alonso's car in 2010 (a season without DRS) was pole capable about 10% of the time. The same season Hamilton's car 5%. Also Alonso for 2012; 10% again. Those are genuinely huge disadvantages. This year is much more of a marginal one.

Vettel has also started on pole 4 times this year and lost the lead 4 times. Although in Hungary he only lost it for a split second. If it wasn't his team mate, he might have had a more aggressive move put on him. Hungary another example of the slipstream affect - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0 again, another 3 second slipstream.

So Vettel on pole in those other races is far from a done deal to lead after the first lap.

BIB: if you say Vettel would have had more wins with more poles, then you have to acknowledge the significance of Mercedes' qualifying advantage on the Championship. Each win for Vettel is a minimum 14 point swing. Just two of those would have halved the gap between them now and the title would still be wide open.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:14 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
That start is Russia is quite clearly, conclusively not down to engine power. The gap between them is not roughly the same throughout, Bottas is catching Vettel before he is even past Vettels grid slot, i.e. within the first 4 metres. He then sits in his slipstream for 6 full seconds. 6 seconds of slipstream in these cars is a long long time, especially when you already got a better get away. Notice once Bottas pulls out of the slipstream the rate and which he is overhauling Vettel reduces.

For context of that, Verstappen made an equal start to Vettel in Mexico and 3 seconds of slipstream put him ahead and he had a Renault engine. Is that engine power too?

Given the nature of the Russia track, Vettel needed to make a perfect start and even then he would have gone into turn 1 slightly ahead or alongside Bottas. The fact he made a slightly worse start, it was over. We have seen this in Russia every year and it was only going to be more this year due to the draggier cars.

I am sure Vettel would have more wins if he had more poles, the statistics I gave were to show that he has had track position a lot of the time. My calculation also put his car as pole capable in 39% of the races. To put that into context, Alonso's car in 2010 (a season without DRS) was pole capable about 10% of the time. The same season Hamilton's car 5%. Also Alonso for 2012; 10% again. Those are genuinely huge disadvantages. This year is much more of a marginal one.

Vettel has also started on pole 4 times this year and lost the lead 4 times. Although in Hungary he only lost it for a split second. If it wasn't his team mate, he might have had a more aggressive move put on him. Hungary another example of the slipstream affect - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0 again, another 3 second slipstream.

So Vettel on pole in those other races is far from a done deal to lead after the first lap.

BIB: if you say Vettel would have had more wins with more poles, then you have to acknowledge the significance of Mercedes' qualifying advantage on the Championship. Each win for Vettel is a minimum 14 point swing. Just two of those would have halved the gap between them now and the title would still be wide open.


The quali advantage had less of an impact on the championship than Vettels driving or reliability.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:15 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one



This one can easily be put down to engine power too. Bottas' start wasn't even that much better than Vettel. The gap between them stays roughly the same until they go over 200 kph and the Mercedes power + slipstream kicks in.

Indeed Bottas had 4 kph on Vettel in Russia, which helped him drive straight past on the opening lap.


The second part of Bottas getaway was much better than Vettel's, gets in the slipstream and you don't have much chance.

The commentary even says that Bottas picked up the slipstream, the more powerful Renault engine must have enabled Verstappen to go past Vettel in Mexico?


Well Hamilton only won the title due to the Mercedes and it’s power, nothing to do with realibility and Vettels hot headed moments.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:32 pm 
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Guys give it up. Mercedes is a ton faster than every car! Ferrari threw everything they had with Vettel in the fight and in F1 that makes a difference. If Mercedes came full out and backed one of their drivers, championship would have been over in July.

Unless Renault leap ahead in engine performance next season (unlikely) and Budkowski shares many tips that gives them an incredible package (more likely but still difficult for a one year turn around) then expect another dominant Mercedes season in 2018.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:33 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
That start is Russia is quite clearly, conclusively not down to engine power. The gap between them is not roughly the same throughout, Bottas is catching Vettel before he is even past Vettels grid slot, i.e. within the first 4 metres. He then sits in his slipstream for 6 full seconds. 6 seconds of slipstream in these cars is a long long time, especially when you already got a better get away. Notice once Bottas pulls out of the slipstream the rate and which he is overhauling Vettel reduces.

For context of that, Verstappen made an equal start to Vettel in Mexico and 3 seconds of slipstream put him ahead and he had a Renault engine. Is that engine power too?

Given the nature of the Russia track, Vettel needed to make a perfect start and even then he would have gone into turn 1 slightly ahead or alongside Bottas. The fact he made a slightly worse start, it was over. We have seen this in Russia every year and it was only going to be more this year due to the draggier cars.

I am sure Vettel would have more wins if he had more poles, the statistics I gave were to show that he has had track position a lot of the time. My calculation also put his car as pole capable in 39% of the races. To put that into context, Alonso's car in 2010 (a season without DRS) was pole capable about 10% of the time. The same season Hamilton's car 5%. Also Alonso for 2012; 10% again. Those are genuinely huge disadvantages. This year is much more of a marginal one.

Vettel has also started on pole 4 times this year and lost the lead 4 times. Although in Hungary he only lost it for a split second. If it wasn't his team mate, he might have had a more aggressive move put on him. Hungary another example of the slipstream affect - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0 again, another 3 second slipstream.

So Vettel on pole in those other races is far from a done deal to lead after the first lap.


BIB: if you say Vettel would have had more wins with more poles, then you have to acknowledge the significance of Mercedes' qualifying advantage on the Championship. Each win for Vettel is a minimum 14 point swing. Just two of those would have halved the gap between them now and the title would still be wide open.


No doubt, Mercedes 1 lap pace has helped it hugely this year. But for Hamilton at least it has largely been wiped out due to Vettel overtaking him 3 times off the line and his grid penalty in Austria. That is a swing of 4 races to Vettel, it makes it pretty equal in terms of track position after the first lap. Track position after the first lap is the real key to finishing ahead.

The car that lead at the end of the first lap has won 12/18 races. This includes 8 of the last 10 races as we had a lot of races in the early part of the year decided by SCs/VSC (Spain, Bahrain and China).

We also had races like Baku where Hamilton would have won and Monaco where Kimi would have won if the team wanted him too.

In the last 10 races, the 2 it wasn't so was Hamiltons some what over performance in qualifying in Malaysia and Vettel sneaking by Hamilton in USA when he just didn't have the pace that day.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
That start is Russia is quite clearly, conclusively not down to engine power. The gap between them is not roughly the same throughout, Bottas is catching Vettel before he is even past Vettels grid slot, i.e. within the first 4 metres. He then sits in his slipstream for 6 full seconds. 6 seconds of slipstream in these cars is a long long time, especially when you already got a better get away. Notice once Bottas pulls out of the slipstream the rate and which he is overhauling Vettel reduces.

For context of that, Verstappen made an equal start to Vettel in Mexico and 3 seconds of slipstream put him ahead and he had a Renault engine. Is that engine power too?

Given the nature of the Russia track, Vettel needed to make a perfect start and even then he would have gone into turn 1 slightly ahead or alongside Bottas. The fact he made a slightly worse start, it was over. We have seen this in Russia every year and it was only going to be more this year due to the draggier cars.

I am sure Vettel would have more wins if he had more poles, the statistics I gave were to show that he has had track position a lot of the time. My calculation also put his car as pole capable in 39% of the races. To put that into context, Alonso's car in 2010 (a season without DRS) was pole capable about 10% of the time. The same season Hamilton's car 5%. Also Alonso for 2012; 10% again. Those are genuinely huge disadvantages. This year is much more of a marginal one.

Vettel has also started on pole 4 times this year and lost the lead 4 times. Although in Hungary he only lost it for a split second. If it wasn't his team mate, he might have had a more aggressive move put on him. Hungary another example of the slipstream affect - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU72heP0uH0 again, another 3 second slipstream.

So Vettel on pole in those other races is far from a done deal to lead after the first lap.

BIB: if you say Vettel would have had more wins with more poles, then you have to acknowledge the significance of Mercedes' qualifying advantage on the Championship. Each win for Vettel is a minimum 14 point swing. Just two of those would have halved the gap between them now and the title would still be wide open.

You attribute every one of Hamilton's pole positions to the car and everyone of Vettel's pole positions down to Vettel himself, fixated with this qualifying mode that I've heard gives Mercedes a 0.15s advantage.

Bottas is known to be a very strong qualifier he dominated Massa yet this season Vettel has out qualified Bottas 12-4, like I say fixated on qualifying modes whilst totally ignoring any difficulties we have heard in respect of the Mercedes car, everytime that Hamilton qualifies on pole there is this default position that it's all down to the car.

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Last edited by pokerman on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:38 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Guys give it up. Mercedes is a ton faster than every car! Ferrari threw everything they had with Vettel in the fight and in F1 that makes a difference. If Mercedes came full out and backed one of their drivers, championship would have been over in July.

Unless Renault leap ahead in engine performance next season (unlikely) and Budkowski shares many tips that gives them an incredible package (more likely but still difficult for a one year turn around) then expect another dominant Mercedes season in 2018.


I don't really understand that. Bottas actually gave Hamilton a net gain in the title race as he took 14 points off of Vettel in Russia and Austria and those are the only times he finished ahead of Hamilton along with Hungary that cost Hamilton 3 points.

Bottas gained Hamilton +11 points in the title fight this year. Although not on purpose, he did the perfect support role. The only way it could have been more perfect is if he qualified 4th in Hungary.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Bentrovato wrote:
Guys give it up. Mercedes is a ton faster than every car! Ferrari threw everything they had with Vettel in the fight and in F1 that makes a difference. If Mercedes came full out and backed one of their drivers, championship would have been over in July.

Unless Renault leap ahead in engine performance next season (unlikely) and Budkowski shares many tips that gives them an incredible package (more likely but still difficult for a one year turn around) then expect another dominant Mercedes season in 2018.

Another dominant Mercedes season because Mercedes won, Verstappen won fair and square last time out so that surely should precede a dominant Red Bull season next year?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:47 pm 
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We will need to revisit this thread in the future. This is 2007 and 2008 all over again in terms of people's perception. The mistake with those seasons was putting Kimi and Massa as even with Hamilton and Alonso in terms of performance. The mistake right now is putting the Vettel/Raikkonen pairing as even with the Hamilton/Bottas pairing (I believe Mercedes have the better #1 and #2 driver).

It always amazes me how people think when it comes to qualifying. As if qualifying is just about the car but the races are about the drivers partially. It's fascinating that so many people think that way; even when watching a season in which the main protagonists have often out-qualified their teammates by half of a second or more.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:30 pm 
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Given that all of Lewis' poles were at least +0.180 ahead of Vettel, I think it is fair to say most of them he probably had the better car. Even if Hamilton is consistently 0.300 quicker than Vettel, I believe he would still have more poles than Vettel this year. However, you are right. I am sure a few of Hamiltons poles he did make something of a difference and the same for Vettel in some qualifying sessions this year.


With regards to 2007/2008 driver performances, unfortunately this bunch of drivers are a lot older so we aren't going to have the luxury of seeing many more years. Post 2007 we had the luxury of Alonso vs Massa for 4 years and then Alonso vs Raikkonen - you couldn't really have asked for more.

I think the best we will get with regards to gauging Hamilton and Vettel is Ricciardo joining either of them at their respective teams and seeing how he performs. If Ricciardo continues to be slower than Verstappen next year and was to join Ferrari and match/beat Vettel again then it would confirm Vettel as not tier 1. If Ricciardo was to join Mercedes and match/beat Hamilton, it would probably make Verstappen the best of the lot of them. Lots of ifs, but I feel thats the only way we can get an insight into Vettel and Hamilton. Unless Rosberg came back to Ferrari...now that would be very interesting.

Vettel and especially Hamilton are now also slowly moving toward the age (Lewis is 33 in just over 2 months time) where skills can begin to decline.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:43 pm 
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I dont know if we are delving into 2007/8 levels of revisionism in the future (I put Vettel above both Raikonnen and Massa as I rated them at that time, and even if his career is to drift off as Massa's has done since then, I still think he has more about him) but a lot of this entire thread and the arguments therein are based around whatever perception you have of Hamilton and Vettel.

I think, even reliability aside, that the Mercedes now, over the course of the season was probably the car to have, but not to the point where a driver on his absolute top game in the Ferrari couldn't have made the difference. Had Vettel performed to the level Hamilton has post summer break (again, reliability aside) then we would be talking about this one going down to who wins in Abu Dhabi.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:37 pm 
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I highly doubt the skills of Vettel or Hamilton are going to erode over the next few years due to age. Maybe due to lack of motivation through having long careers which does of course correlate somewhat with age but isn't about the age itself but rather the experience and duration of attrition. Again, I'm doubtful because as long as Hamilton is at Merc and Vettel is at Ferrari it's game on and all out F1 war. There might be a shift in the hierarchy as Max and Dan continue to improve, assuming they do, and through landmark regulation changes which suit some over others.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:54 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Given that all of Lewis' poles were at least +0.180 ahead of Vettel, I think it is fair to say most of them he probably had the better car. Even if Hamilton is consistently 0.300 quicker than Vettel, I believe he would still have more poles than Vettel this year. However, you are right. I am sure a few of Hamiltons poles he did make something of a difference and the same for Vettel in some qualifying sessions this year.


With regards to 2007/2008 driver performances, unfortunately this bunch of drivers are a lot older so we aren't going to have the luxury of seeing many more years. Post 2007 we had the luxury of Alonso vs Massa for 4 years and then Alonso vs Raikkonen - you couldn't really have asked for more.

I think the best we will get with regards to gauging Hamilton and Vettel is Ricciardo joining either of them at their respective teams and seeing how he performs. If Ricciardo continues to be slower than Verstappen next year and was to join Ferrari and match/beat Vettel again then it would confirm Vettel as not tier 1. If Ricciardo was to join Mercedes and match/beat Hamilton, it would probably make Verstappen the best of the lot of them. Lots of ifs, but I feel thats the only way we can get an insight into Vettel and Hamilton. Unless Rosberg came back to Ferrari...now that would be very interesting.

Vettel and especially Hamilton are now also slowly moving toward the age (Lewis is 33 in just over 2 months time) where skills can begin to decline.

This is why Ricciardo said he would like to match himself against Hamilton when he's in his prime which would be 2019, after that you are looking at Hamilton approaching 36 on the threshold of going past his prime.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 12:57 pm 
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Starting second, assuming there's no incident and you run to order, costs you 7 points. Crashing out on the first lap repeatedly, your car breaking down and you ripping off people's diffuser and playing Mario Kart at races costs you well over 80 points. Just saying ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 1:42 pm 
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justmoi wrote:
Starting second, assuming there's no incident and you run to order, costs you 7 points. Crashing out on the first lap repeatedly, your car breaking down and you ripping off people's diffuser and playing Mario Kart at races costs you well over 80 points. Just saying ;)


That's an easy statement, but greatly exaggerated.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 03, 2017 6:35 pm 
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^If you mean the second part, an objective look at the net effects of all those incidents will show very little exaggeration, if any at all


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:04 pm 
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http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-dr ... le-defeat/

Quote:
“I don’t believe in bad luck,” Ferrari president Marchionne said of the Scuderia’s defeat.

“Ultimately it’s a reflection of the way in which we manage these businesses.

“It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement.”


Quote:
“It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”


Reading between the lines, the Ferrari boss seems to believe that it's down in part to his driver that they lost the WDC.
Interesting dynamic at Ferrari.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 1:20 pm 
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Laz_T800 wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-driver-error-played-a-role-in-title-defeat/

Quote:
“I don’t believe in bad luck,” Ferrari president Marchionne said of the Scuderia’s defeat.

“Ultimately it’s a reflection of the way in which we manage these businesses.

“It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement.”


Quote:
“It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”


Reading between the lines, the Ferrari boss seems to believe that it's down in part to his driver that they lost the WDC.
Interesting dynamic at Ferrari.


Interesting indeed, it is perhaps significant that those quotes don't admit any managerial blame, who made them...oh yes Ferrari management. Well that should build a good relationship between drivers and management then. :uhoh:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 2:25 pm 
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If Alonso had been in this year's Ferrari you would have to think the wdc would still be going down to the wire in Abu Dhabi. Vettel made it easy for Hamilton and Raikonnen was nowhere again. Drivers and quality/reliability, the chairman is not wrong.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:39 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-driver-error-played-a-role-in-title-defeat/

Quote:
“I don’t believe in bad luck,” Ferrari president Marchionne said of the Scuderia’s defeat.

“Ultimately it’s a reflection of the way in which we manage these businesses.

“It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement.”


Quote:
“It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”


Reading between the lines, the Ferrari boss seems to believe that it's down in part to his driver that they lost the WDC.
Interesting dynamic at Ferrari.


Interesting indeed, it is perhaps significant that those quotes don't admit any managerial blame, who made them...oh yes Ferrari management. Well that should build a good relationship between drivers and management then. :uhoh:


How exactly do you blame the mgmt for 2017? Vettel made some mistakes, and quality control was lacking.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:55 pm 
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If the drivers had been perfect then they would still be in with a chance of winning both championships. Just with Baku alone Vettel would still be in the hunt.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 3:56 pm 
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mas wrote:
If Alonso had been in this year's Ferrari you would have to think the wdc would still be going down to the wire in Abu Dhabi. Vettel made it easy for Hamilton and Raikonnen was nowhere again. Drivers and quality/reliability, the chairman is not wrong.

Ferrari's whole philosophy on drivers needs to evolve. They have been trying to just get a top driver and then set them up in a cushy situation with a lap dog teammate and it hasn't been working for them of late. They need to create a more competitive internal situation. Not all-out war like has sometimes been the case between teammates but the Vettel/Raikkonen situation is just too comfy and it does very little to push the team forward. I think, at the very least, they need to replace Kimi ASAP. Keeping him on as one of your drivers is just a noncompetitive decision.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:17 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-driver-error-played-a-role-in-title-defeat/

Quote:
“I don’t believe in bad luck,” Ferrari president Marchionne said of the Scuderia’s defeat.

“Ultimately it’s a reflection of the way in which we manage these businesses.

“It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement.”


Quote:
“It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”


Reading between the lines, the Ferrari boss seems to believe that it's down in part to his driver that they lost the WDC.
Interesting dynamic at Ferrari.


Interesting indeed, it is perhaps significant that those quotes don't admit any managerial blame, who made them...oh yes Ferrari management. Well that should build a good relationship between drivers and management then. :uhoh:


How exactly do you blame the mgmt for 2017? Vettel made some mistakes, and quality control was lacking.


So who orders the parts? Who find the suppliers? Who takes delivery? Who inspects quality? Strategy, tactics, tyres, upgrades....

Not down to the drivers I would suggest, they contributed to the problem but for management not to admit some liability is copping out in my view.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 8:30 pm 
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Also, the management hired the drivers ...


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 05, 2017 11:24 pm 
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Crazy to think it but Red Bull could end up with the same or even more wins than the Ferrari this year. They're on 3 and Ferrari have 4. You'd fancy them in Brazil, especially if it's wet but AD should favour Ferrari.

That would be a bit embarrassing and no wonder Serigio sounds a bit miffed.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 2:43 am 
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Flash2k11 wrote:
I dont know if we are delving into 2007/8 levels of revisionism in the future (I put Vettel above both Raikonnen and Massa as I rated them at that time, and even if his career is to drift off as Massa's has done since then, I still think he has more about him) but a lot of this entire thread and the arguments therein are based around whatever perception you have of Hamilton and Vettel.

I think, even reliability aside, that the Mercedes now, over the course of the season was probably the car to have, but not to the point where a driver on his absolute top game in the Ferrari couldn't have made the difference. Had Vettel performed to the level Hamilton has post summer break (again, reliability aside) then we would be talking about this one going down to who wins in Abu Dhabi.


It was impossible to know how good each driver truly was in 2007/2008 was always going to be needed to be looked back on. All four drivers had a new team mate, 3 of them new cars and we had a rookie up against Alonso.

They only things we knew going into the season was that Alonso and Kimi appear to be top drivers were top drivers and Massa almost certainly wasn't.

Now we know, Alonso is a top driver and neither Kimi or Massa ever were tier 1 drivers or certainly not ever since 2005 in Raikkonens case.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:08 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-driver-error-played-a-role-in-title-defeat/

Quote:
“I don’t believe in bad luck,” Ferrari president Marchionne said of the Scuderia’s defeat.

“Ultimately it’s a reflection of the way in which we manage these businesses.

“It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement.”


Quote:
“It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”


Reading between the lines, the Ferrari boss seems to believe that it's down in part to his driver that they lost the WDC.
Interesting dynamic at Ferrari.


Interesting indeed, it is perhaps significant that those quotes don't admit any managerial blame, who made them...oh yes Ferrari management. Well that should build a good relationship between drivers and management then. :uhoh:

Marchionne plays no part in running the actual race team, also he's not slow in sacking people if needs be, why would you think he would have the need to protect the management team itself?

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Last edited by pokerman on Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:15 pm 
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Option or Prime wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Option or Prime wrote:
Laz_T800 wrote:
http://www.planetf1.com/news/ferrari-driver-error-played-a-role-in-title-defeat/

Quote:
“I don’t believe in bad luck,” Ferrari president Marchionne said of the Scuderia’s defeat.

“Ultimately it’s a reflection of the way in which we manage these businesses.

“It was a combination of, especially in the second half of the season, technical issues and driver error, or driver misjudgement.”


Quote:
“It’s a 2018 objective now. We regret not having done better, but the car is there. It is in my view probably the best car on the track today.”


Reading between the lines, the Ferrari boss seems to believe that it's down in part to his driver that they lost the WDC.
Interesting dynamic at Ferrari.


Interesting indeed, it is perhaps significant that those quotes don't admit any managerial blame, who made them...oh yes Ferrari management. Well that should build a good relationship between drivers and management then. :uhoh:


How exactly do you blame the mgmt for 2017? Vettel made some mistakes, and quality control was lacking.


So who orders the parts? Who find the suppliers? Who takes delivery? Who inspects quality? Strategy, tactics, tyres, upgrades....

Not down to the drivers I would suggest, they contributed to the problem but for management not to admit some liability is copping out in my view.

He actually said technical issues and driver errors so he's not solely blaming the drivers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 3:18 pm 
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lamo wrote:
Flash2k11 wrote:
I dont know if we are delving into 2007/8 levels of revisionism in the future (I put Vettel above both Raikonnen and Massa as I rated them at that time, and even if his career is to drift off as Massa's has done since then, I still think he has more about him) but a lot of this entire thread and the arguments therein are based around whatever perception you have of Hamilton and Vettel.

I think, even reliability aside, that the Mercedes now, over the course of the season was probably the car to have, but not to the point where a driver on his absolute top game in the Ferrari couldn't have made the difference. Had Vettel performed to the level Hamilton has post summer break (again, reliability aside) then we would be talking about this one going down to who wins in Abu Dhabi.


It was impossible to know how good each driver truly was in 2007/2008 was always going to be needed to be looked back on. All four drivers had a new team mate, 3 of them new cars and we had a rookie up against Alonso.

They only things we knew going into the season was that Alonso and Kimi appear to be top drivers were top drivers and Massa almost certainly wasn't.

Now we know, Alonso is a top driver and neither Kimi or Massa ever were tier 1 drivers or certainly not ever since 2005 in Raikkonens case.

Well I would say that Ferrari realised before anyone else that neither of them were tier 1 drivers when they basically sacked Kimi.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:30 pm 
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mas wrote:
If Alonso had been in this year's Ferrari you would have to think the wdc would still be going down to the wire in Abu Dhabi. Vettel made it easy for Hamilton and Raikonnen was nowhere again. Drivers and quality/reliability, the chairman is not wrong.

Hard to know. I think it would be closer but I don't know if would go all the way to AD

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 11:55 pm 
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Vettel was asked to grade his own season from 1-6. 1 is best, 6 is worst. I made it out of 10 as that is what we tend to do in here. 10 is best, 0 worst.

Aus- 10
Chi- 10
Bah- 10
Rus- 9
Spai- 9
Mon- 9 or 10 (not clear)
Can- 8
Aze- 0
Aus- 10
GB- 4
Hun- 10
Bel - 9
Ita - 7
Sin- 10
Mal- 9
Jap- 10
USA- 9
Mex- 8

Image

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:17 am 
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Not too sure about the interpretation to be honest, 10 boxes and he is marking IN the boxes rather than on the lines isn't he? Though the numbering is odd I agree.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:16 am 
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lamo wrote:
Vettel was asked to grade his own season from 1-6. 1 is best, 6 is worst. I made it out of 10 as that is what we tend to do in here. 10 is best, 0 worst.

Aus- 10
Chi- 10
Bah- 10
Rus- 9
Spai- 9
Mon- 9 or 10 (not clear)
Can- 8
Aze- 0
Aus- 10
GB- 4
Hun- 10
Bel - 9
Ita - 7
Sin- 10
Mal- 9
Jap- 10
USA- 9
Mex- 8

Image


Scratch this - but Monaco is a 9.


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:58 am 
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So he doesn't think that the Singapore crash was his own fault; either that or he's only rated his qualy performance.


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