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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:05 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Invade wrote:
What's clear is that Lewis has been metronomic in his qualifying performances. He consistently nailing his "bankers" and often barely improving on it on the second run, while always being consistently fast throughout the sessions. The whole Merc-Hamilton operation in qualifying is extremely strong.

Lewis has been very good in qualifying, but today he wasn't particularly good IMO. He messed up his final run completely. If it wasn't for his car advantage he might have lost pole.

A high 32 was possible judging by his sector times.


He was slightly slower on his final run, no? Hard to hook up two faultless laps and by all accounts the conditions weren't that easy with the wind. But I agree that he's had better qualifying weekends - nonetheless, he's rarely putting in substandard laps throughout sessions over the last many races now.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:16 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel improved on his final run but so did almost everyone else. In fact, everybody but the Mercedes drivers improved on their final run. If they improved by 0.2-0.3 seconds (as everyone else did thanks to track evolution), then they should have been half a second up the road from Ferrari.

Also Hamilton's final lap was not a good run. He did a 24.8 in the first sector of his final lap, so he should have been on course to improve his lap by 0.2 tenths based on the first sector alone.

I believe that Mercedes' ultimate laptime (best sectors added together) is over 4 tenths quicker than Ferrari. They were constantly making massive gains on Ferrari in S2, where Ferrari was simply too slow on the straights.

This is where your analysis fails you. Your thinking would only make sense if all of the driver's were the same in terms of their ultimate pace. The fact is that they are not. You are assuming that the difference in lap time comes from the car but it's an assumption with no real concrete basis. If we look at the numbers and assume that all of the drivers are driving an identical car; they would indicate that Hamilton was the fastest with Vettel about 0.25 behind, Bottas another tenth back and Kimi a tenth behind him. That actually is what I would expect from the 4 of them in identical machinery give or take a tenth. I don't think there's any significant difference in the ultimate pace of the cars here.


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PostPosted: Sat Oct 21, 2017 11:19 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Vettel improved on his final run but so did almost everyone else. In fact, everybody but the Mercedes drivers improved on their final run. If they improved by 0.2-0.3 seconds (as everyone else did thanks to track evolution), then they should have been half a second up the road from Ferrari.

Also Hamilton's final lap was not a good run. He did a 24.8 in the first sector of his final lap, so he should have been on course to improve his lap by 0.2 tenths based on the first sector alone.

I believe that Mercedes' ultimate laptime (best sectors added together) is over 4 tenths quicker than Ferrari. They were constantly making massive gains on Ferrari in S2, where Ferrari was simply too slow on the straights.

yes, I'd agree with this. Hamilton said he caught a gust on his final run, which would explain why he lost some time. But The Mercedes was clearly the faster car today. Vettel seems confident on race pace, however, although he still has to find a way past!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 3:26 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
If all of the drivers are driving an identical car; they would indicate that Hamilton was the fastest with Vettel about 0.25 behind, Bottas another tenth back and Kimi a tenth behind him. That actually is what I would expect from the 4 of them in identical machinery give or take a tenth. I don't think there's any significant difference in the ultimate pace of the cars here.

Again, we end up with a driver vs driver debate, which is typically what you expect whenever Mercedes is clearly fastest like it was today.

And Hamilton made a mistake on his final lap and should have been about half a second in front of Vettel (who had a terrific final run), but let me guess, that half a second was also thanks to his superior speed?

Hamilton's average advantage over Rosberg was 0.085s, but I guess that a likely superior driver like Vettel is half a second slower.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 5:23 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
If we look at the numbers and assume that all of the drivers are driving an identical car; they would indicate that Hamilton was the fastest with Vettel about 0.25 behind, Bottas another tenth back and Kimi a tenth behind him. That actually is what I would expect from the 4 of them in identical machinery give or take a tenth. I don't think there's any significant difference in the ultimate pace of the cars here.


I believe that they were not in "identical cars" for qualifying no matter how Hamilton's fans try to spin it. I see no numbers that would make one "assume that all of the drivers are driving an identical car".

Being on the pole is not good enough, some here have to have their driver on the pole with an "inferior" car, or at the least one that is "equal".
;)

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:51 pm 
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Image

Safe to say that it's not even debatable anymore.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 7:59 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
Image

Safe to say that it's not even debatable anymore.


Where is Bottas?

Clearly slower than Kimi.... What does that usually mean?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:16 pm 
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KingVoid that's just your opinion. Obviously still missed Singapore out which would make race pace very close which is basically what most people in this thread try and point out. You like to make out Vettel is driving a Torro Rossi still while most posters at least agree it's been around even on Sunday.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:56 pm 
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Both Ferraris quicker than Bottas, on old and on new tyres. Could it be Hamilton making the difference?
;)


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:56 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Image

Safe to say that it's not even debatable anymore.


Where is Bottas?

Clearly slower than Kimi.... What does that usually mean?


That he's slower?. We're not in the first quarter of the season anymore and Bottas is really struggling.

Clear Merc track this weekend. The threw Bottas under the bus a bit though by leaving him out so long I think but Kimi had a great race today and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis all weekend.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 8:59 pm 
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Bottas really is not on it just now, a fact amplified by Hamilton being in superb form.

Last year, that would probably have been a comfortable Mercedes 1-2 with the same advantages as today.


Last edited by Badgeronimous on Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Image

Safe to say that it's not even debatable anymore.


Where is Bottas?

Clearly slower than Kimi.... What does that usually mean?


That he's slower?. We're not in the first quarter of the season anymore and Bottas is really struggling.

Clear Merc track this weekend. The threw Bottas under the bus a bit though by leaving him out so long I think but Kimi had a great race today and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis all weekend.

That perception comes purely from Hamilton's performance. On clear Merc tracks like Monza and Baku, you don't see Vettel out-qualify Bottas and you certainly don't see Kimi faster than him during the race.

This is not about the car. It's about two things primarily; the fact that Hamilton is extremely strong here and the fact that Vettel got very little running on Friday and was on the back foot both yesterday and today. Raikkonen was quicker than him in the race and yet both were easily quicker than Bottas.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:01 pm 
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Probably true that Bottas looks even worse because Ham is just on fire.

Mercedes had the qualy and race pace and I'm not sure who had the better race pace out of Red Bull and Ferrari today... maybe Ferrari edge it due to the grunt making overtaking a little more comfortable. Red Bull are delivering.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:05 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Probably true that Bottas looks even worse because Ham is just on fire.

Mercedes had the qualy and race pace and I'm not sure who had the better race pace out of Red Bull and Ferrari today... maybe Ferrari edge it due to the grunt making overtaking a little more comfortable. Red Bull are delivering.

You're not realizing that we never saw the Ferrari's pace this weekend because Vettel was on the back foot and had very little running. He was off his game this weekend and was out-performed by Kimi in the race.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:08 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Image

Safe to say that it's not even debatable anymore.


Where is Bottas?

Clearly slower than Kimi.... What does that usually mean?


That he's slower?. We're not in the first quarter of the season anymore and Bottas is really struggling.

Clear Merc track this weekend. The threw Bottas under the bus a bit though by leaving him out so long I think but Kimi had a great race today and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis all weekend.

That perception comes purely from Hamilton's performance. On clear Merc tracks like Monza and Baku, you don't see Vettel out-qualify Bottas and you certainly don't see Kimi faster than him during the race.

This is not about the car. It's about two things primarily; the fact that Hamilton is extremely strong here and the fact that Vettel got very little running on Friday and was on the back foot both yesterday and today. Raikkonen was quicker than him in the race and yet both were easily quicker than Bottas.


It comes from the whole weekend. Quali where Lewis should have had a 3.5-4ths advantage(Which is between what he quoted his mechanics predicted) and then the race where the Mercedes which is the worst car in dirty air stick to the rear of the Ferrari and passed easily. You simply can't do that without a big pace advantage.

Built a 5s gap the team threw away and built another 9s gap on what was arguably the slower strategy. It's a clearer "win" than Hungary or Monaco which are treated as slam dunk Ferrari tracks to be fair.

This was Malaysia in reverse and they're still trading blows track to track. Mexico could be completely different.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:08 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Both Ferraris quicker than Bottas, on old and on new tyres. Could it be Hamilton making the difference?
;)

It could be... the same as it could have been Vettel making the difference in most circuits this season since Kimi has usually finished behind both Mercedes.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:11 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Image

Safe to say that it's not even debatable anymore.


Where is Bottas?

Clearly slower than Kimi.... What does that usually mean?


That he's slower?. We're not in the first quarter of the season anymore and Bottas is really struggling.

Clear Merc track this weekend. The threw Bottas under the bus a bit though by leaving him out so long I think but Kimi had a great race today and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis all weekend.

That perception comes purely from Hamilton's performance. On clear Merc tracks like Monza and Baku, you don't see Vettel out-qualify Bottas and you certainly don't see Kimi faster than him during the race.

This is not about the car. It's about two things primarily; the fact that Hamilton is extremely strong here and the fact that Vettel got very little running on Friday and was on the back foot both yesterday and today. Raikkonen was quicker than him in the race and yet both were easily quicker than Bottas.


It comes from the whole weekend. Quali where Lewis should have had a 3.5-4ths advantage(Which is between what he quoted his mechanics predicted) and then the race where the Mercedes which is the worst car in dirty air stick to the rear of the Ferrari and passed easily. You simply can't do that without a big pace advantage.

Built a 5s gap the team threw away and built another 9s gap on what was arguably the slower strategy. It's a clearer "win" than Hungary or Monaco which are treated as slam dunk Ferrari tracks to be fair.

This was Malaysia in reverse and they're still trading blows track to track. Mexico could be completely different.

Again, you are only looking at Hamilton's performance and ignoring the very obvious fact that Vettel did not have an optimal weekend and was struggling during the race. Hamilton and Mercedes had a perfect weekend while Vettel and Ferrari barely got any running on Friday and never got locked in all weekend. Even so, both Ferrari's were easily quicker than Bottas. Why ignore that? Why use Hamilton's performance as the baseline?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:11 pm 
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It should be said the rain helped a lot cleaning the track each day. We saw in Suzuka the Mercedes goes well on a greener track while Ferrari like it with more grip,they were talking about it in Sky.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:12 pm 
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Migen wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Both Ferraris quicker than Bottas, on old and on new tyres. Could it be Hamilton making the difference?
;)

It could be... the same as it could have been Vettel making the difference in most circuits this season since Kimi has usually finished behind both Mercedes.

Both Hamilton and Vettel are making a difference this season. The main point is that it is NOT the car that is making the big difference this season.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:13 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Probably true that Bottas looks even worse because Ham is just on fire.

Mercedes had the qualy and race pace and I'm not sure who had the better race pace out of Red Bull and Ferrari today... maybe Ferrari edge it due to the grunt making overtaking a little more comfortable. Red Bull are delivering.

You're not realizing that we never saw the Ferrari's pace this weekend because Vettel was on the back foot and had very little running. He was off his game this weekend and was out-performed by Kimi in the race.


It could be that way but I thought Kimi looked quick today, mainly based on how all the Ferrari and RB drivers looked clearly faster than Bottas. Hamilton did have very brutal and easy race pace today which makes the gap between himself and Bottas look like the grand canyon at the moment. It's possible that both Ferrari drivers were good but not great and that Verstappen has just been continuing his typically awesome race pace of the last few races.

Ham and then Max the form drivers of the last several races perhaps.

It is right to consider the impact of the weekend running - Merc were spotless and better prepared. Everything feels a bit more efficient.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:17 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Probably true that Bottas looks even worse because Ham is just on fire.

Mercedes had the qualy and race pace and I'm not sure who had the better race pace out of Red Bull and Ferrari today... maybe Ferrari edge it due to the grunt making overtaking a little more comfortable. Red Bull are delivering.

You're not realizing that we never saw the Ferrari's pace this weekend because Vettel was on the back foot and had very little running. He was off his game this weekend and was out-performed by Kimi in the race.


It could be that way but I thought Kimi looked quick today, mainly based on how all the Ferrari and RB drivers looked clearly faster than Bottas. Hamilton did have very brutal and easy race pace today which makes the gap between himself and Bottas look like the grand canyon at the moment. It's possible that both Ferrari drivers were good but not great and that Verstappen has just been continuing his typically awesome race pace of the last few races.

Ham and then Max the form drivers of the last several races perhaps.

Ferrari haven't produced a clean race weekend since Spa. They are not getting the maximum out of their package due to all of the reliability issues of late. Once Kimi let Vettel through, you'd expect Seb to pull away but he couldn't because he wasn't faster than Raikkonen at that point (despite having 16 lap fresher tires). This was far from a race weekend where Vettel got the most out of the car. Not his fault mind you. He was just dealing with the reliability issues and didn't get his normal running in.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:18 pm 
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".. And it is every area; a little bit here, a little bit there and it all adds up."

Not an exact quote but paraphrasing how James Allison feels Mercedes have maximised what they have despite being in what he described as a very close race where the difference between the cars were fractions of a second with a title race that yo-yoed.

"We have had the pace advantage over the course of the season."

So James Allison does feel Merc have had the edge in raw pace, but then goes on to talk about the tetchy Merc operating window for performance.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:21 pm 
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What James Allison is currently saying about Mercedes is pretty mindblowing. You guys have gotta catch up with it later but he's basically just said that Mercedes are on another level in terms of how they work and operate. He was very strong and impassioned about it. That's based on all of his former experience.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:24 pm 
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Invade wrote:
What James Allison is currently saying about Mercedes is pretty mindblowing. You guys have gotta catch up with it later but he's basically just said that Mercedes are on another level in terms of how they work and operate. He was very strong and impassioned about it. That's based on all of his former experience.

yeah but you have to take what these guys say with a pinch of salt, though. They could be telling the truth, but OTOH of course they are going to big up their own team. He's hardly going to say "well when I was at Ferrari they were much better organised than Mercedes is," is he?!


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:27 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
What James Allison is currently saying about Mercedes is pretty mindblowing. You guys have gotta catch up with it later but he's basically just said that Mercedes are on another level in terms of how they work and operate. He was very strong and impassioned about it. That's based on all of his former experience.

yeah but you have to take what these guys say with a pinch of salt, though. They could be telling the truth, but OTOH of course they are going to big up their own team. He's hardly going to say "well when I was at Ferrari they were much better organised than Mercedes is," is he?!

Both Ferrari and Mercedes internal teams have tooted their own horn like this. It's not the most reliable way to assess things; listening to the teams.

It's close between the cars and, on race day, Red Bull are right there now too.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:29 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Invade wrote:
What James Allison is currently saying about Mercedes is pretty mindblowing. You guys have gotta catch up with it later but he's basically just said that Mercedes are on another level in terms of how they work and operate. He was very strong and impassioned about it. That's based on all of his former experience.

yeah but you have to take what these guys say with a pinch of salt, though. They could be telling the truth, but OTOH of course they are going to big up their own team. He's hardly going to say "well when I was at Ferrari they were much better organised than Mercedes is," is he?!


For sure he is high off today's success which probably made him gush even more but I can believe he sees a level of professionalism at Mercedes which is not currently equalled in his experience especially with the tumultuous nature of Ferrari in recent years (which is now being turned around very well on the whole). Ferrari have set themselves a good platform to close that gap, which I believe likely does exist. He probably didn't get the best view of Ferrari in his time with them.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:31 pm 
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Clearly I've got it wrong on the prediction from 2 races back that Ferrari would have the edge on Mercedes so far. I do feel that Red Bull have been delivering so at least that's come to pass and that's very promising going forward into 2018.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:35 pm 
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It is close but obviously Mercedes have that advantage in qualifying and today Hamilton overtook Vettel and ran away. I think RBR have improved a lot in past few months.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Clearly I've got it wrong on the prediction from 2 races back that Ferrari would have the edge on Mercedes so far. I do feel that Red Bull have been delivering so at least that's come to pass and that's very promising going forward into 2018.


With how close RB was in Japan I wouldn’t be surprised if Ferrari and Mercedes was equal in race pace but we will never know.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:38 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:

Where is Bottas?

Clearly slower than Kimi.... What does that usually mean?


That he's slower?. We're not in the first quarter of the season anymore and Bottas is really struggling.

Clear Merc track this weekend. The threw Bottas under the bus a bit though by leaving him out so long I think but Kimi had a great race today and was closer to Seb than Bottas was to Lewis all weekend.

That perception comes purely from Hamilton's performance. On clear Merc tracks like Monza and Baku, you don't see Vettel out-qualify Bottas and you certainly don't see Kimi faster than him during the race.

This is not about the car. It's about two things primarily; the fact that Hamilton is extremely strong here and the fact that Vettel got very little running on Friday and was on the back foot both yesterday and today. Raikkonen was quicker than him in the race and yet both were easily quicker than Bottas.


It comes from the whole weekend. Quali where Lewis should have had a 3.5-4ths advantage(Which is between what he quoted his mechanics predicted) and then the race where the Mercedes which is the worst car in dirty air stick to the rear of the Ferrari and passed easily. You simply can't do that without a big pace advantage.

Built a 5s gap the team threw away and built another 9s gap on what was arguably the slower strategy. It's a clearer "win" than Hungary or Monaco which are treated as slam dunk Ferrari tracks to be fair.

This was Malaysia in reverse and they're still trading blows track to track. Mexico could be completely different.

Again, you are only looking at Hamilton's performance and ignoring the very obvious fact that Vettel did not have an optimal weekend and was struggling during the race. Hamilton and Mercedes had a perfect weekend while Vettel and Ferrari barely got any running on Friday and never got locked in all weekend. Even so, both Ferrari's were easily quicker than Bottas. Why ignore that? Why use Hamilton's performance as the baseline?


You don't judge a cars pace by the slower driver who's being overlooked strategy wise and is saying himself he's all at sea so I've got to look at Lewis. He set a purple S1 on his last run in Q3 but lost the 0.150 advantage over the rest of the lap because of wind he said. Seb nailed his to be fair but was still 2ths shy so adding the 0.150 lost at least gives it 3.5ths over Ferrari in Q. Lewis said in the same interview on Sky his mechanics predicted 0.2-0.4 advantage for Mercedes.

Then today Lewis can follow as close as Ferrari could in Spa despite being an infamously worse car in dirty air and passes it with ease and builds comfortable gaps twice. Seb's missed Friday running plenty of times in his career and Kimi's not a rookie so can get the car in a good spot so I'm not convinced that missing Friday running is suddenly so detrimental.

Bottas is no barometer just now, he's too far away and using Kimi to judge the Ferrari pace in places like Australia or Bahrain would get laughed at. It honestly looked like a Merc track just as much as Malaysia looked a Ferrari one to me.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:40 pm 
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So did Mercedes have the fastest or the third fastest car this weekend? If they had two 'Bottases' then there'd be a strong case for the latter.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 9:44 pm 
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j man wrote:
So did Mercedes have the fastest or the third fastest car this weekend? If they had two 'Bottases' then there'd be a strong case for the latter.



I'd say the fastest and that Kimi didn't have bad pace today at least and that Bottas had quite poor pace relatively speaking (comparing the two worst of the six drivers in the top three teams here). To make matters worse, Hamilton probably had a lot of pace in hand. It reflects very poorly on Bottas. Ham is in sparkling form, no doubt.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:13 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That perception comes purely from Hamilton's performance. On clear Merc tracks like Monza and Baku, you don't see Vettel out-qualify Bottas and you certainly don't see Kimi faster than him during the race.

This is not about the car. It's about two things primarily; the fact that Hamilton is extremely strong here and the fact that Vettel got very little running on Friday and was on the back foot both yesterday and today. Raikkonen was quicker than him in the race and yet both were easily quicker than Bottas.


It comes from the whole weekend. Quali where Lewis should have had a 3.5-4ths advantage(Which is between what he quoted his mechanics predicted) and then the race where the Mercedes which is the worst car in dirty air stick to the rear of the Ferrari and passed easily. You simply can't do that without a big pace advantage.

Built a 5s gap the team threw away and built another 9s gap on what was arguably the slower strategy. It's a clearer "win" than Hungary or Monaco which are treated as slam dunk Ferrari tracks to be fair.

This was Malaysia in reverse and they're still trading blows track to track. Mexico could be completely different.

Again, you are only looking at Hamilton's performance and ignoring the very obvious fact that Vettel did not have an optimal weekend and was struggling during the race. Hamilton and Mercedes had a perfect weekend while Vettel and Ferrari barely got any running on Friday and never got locked in all weekend. Even so, both Ferrari's were easily quicker than Bottas. Why ignore that? Why use Hamilton's performance as the baseline?


You don't judge a cars pace by the slower driver who's being overlooked strategy wise and is saying himself he's all at sea so I've got to look at Lewis. He set a purple S1 on his last run in Q3 but lost the 0.150 advantage over the rest of the lap because of wind he said. Seb nailed his to be fair but was still 2ths shy so adding the 0.150 lost at least gives it 3.5ths over Ferrari in Q. Lewis said in the same interview on Sky his mechanics predicted 0.2-0.4 advantage for Mercedes.

Then today Lewis can follow as close as Ferrari could in Spa despite being an infamously worse car in dirty air and passes it with ease and builds comfortable gaps twice. Seb's missed Friday running plenty of times in his career and Kimi's not a rookie so can get the car in a good spot so I'm not convinced that missing Friday running is suddenly so detrimental.

Bottas is no barometer just now, he's too far away and using Kimi to judge the Ferrari pace in places like Australia or Bahrain would get laughed at. It honestly looked like a Merc track just as much as Malaysia looked a Ferrari one to me.

Hamilton is no baramoeter either. To use him as the barometer, you would have to believe that the others could match him if they were in the same car. I've not seen anyone who can match his pace in the same car since his rookie season with Fernando Alonso. I also happen to think he's performing at his absolute peak at the moment.

I don't think Bottas is particularly lost at the moment. Certainly he went through a very rough patch but I feel he bounced back in Japan and was solid here too. Vettel was slower than Raikkonen today and was burning through his tires. To me that's a sign that he didn't get the setup quite right or perhaps just didn't get to do a really good long run simulation. His lack of running did make an impact this week.

Anyway, I'm going to stop getting in these discussions because it's useless. I just feel the need to point out at least once that you are simply looking at Hamilton's performance and attributing it to the car when the other guy in the same car (a guy who has proven capable of winning when the car is up to it) finished behind both Ferraris and the Red Bull. That's not something that happens much for Bottas; even when he isn't in top form.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:14 pm 
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Well I guess the discussions can become frustrating but I'd say it makes for pretty entertaining debate.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:15 pm 
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i think hamilton would have won the title in either car so it doesnt matter


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Probably true that Bottas looks even worse because Ham is just on fire.

Mercedes had the qualy and race pace and I'm not sure who had the better race pace out of Red Bull and Ferrari today... maybe Ferrari edge it due to the grunt making overtaking a little more comfortable. Red Bull are delivering.

You're not realizing that we never saw the Ferrari's pace this weekend because Vettel was on the back foot and had very little running. He was off his game this weekend and was out-performed by Kimi in the race.


It could be that way but I thought Kimi looked quick today, mainly based on how all the Ferrari and RB drivers looked clearly faster than Bottas. Hamilton did have very brutal and easy race pace today which makes the gap between himself and Bottas look like the grand canyon at the moment. It's possible that both Ferrari drivers were good but not great and that Verstappen has just been continuing his typically awesome race pace of the last few races.

Ham and then Max the form drivers of the last several races perhaps.

Ferrari haven't produced a clean race weekend since Spa. They are not getting the maximum out of their package due to all of the reliability issues of late. Once Kimi let Vettel through, you'd expect Seb to pull away but he couldn't because he wasn't faster than Raikkonen at that point (despite having 16 lap fresher tires). This was far from a race weekend where Vettel got the most out of the car. Not his fault mind you. He was just dealing with the reliability issues and didn't get his normal running in.

Vettel initially pulled away 2+ seconds then slowed down in an attempt to give Kimi DRS (at the moment, Sky commentators actually thought that Vettel might have run out of fuel).
How exactly do think Vettel made up the 15 seconds + gap to Kimi in 16 laps if he wasnt faster on fresher tires?

How much per lap do you think lack of practice running has cost Vettel ? You do realize that Ferrari have still put to use the data from the other car?
Yes, Vettel didnt have the best weekend preparations, but Hamilton's Mercedes still had pace in reserve (in qualies and todays race too) if he needed it at any point evidenced by the fact that even on slower compound and much older tires he wasnt loosing much to Vettel. On even terms, Hamilton breezed past Vettel and built a 5 seconds buffer gap within 9 laps (and could have probably got it bigger if not for the potential risk of a SC bringing it all to nothing).

If Mercedes did not have a clear advantage on this track (as you`re trying to imply on different posts), then clearly Ferrari has not had the advantage at a single track so far this season yet.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:24 pm 
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Mercedes the better car this weekend but I think it was exaggerated a bit by Vettel being a bit below par... on best sectors he was only 0.095 quicker than Kimi in qualifying. In the race, I believe, Silverstone aside - his worst race pace relative to Kimi all season.

If Vettel was on it this weekend, i.e. his usual 0.3-0.4 ahead of Kimi he might have won considering he had the lead at the start.

It could be that Kimi was absolutely on it this weekend, but I always prefer to go the other way as its more likely a driver being off the pace than another suddenly being amazing. The same reasoning for Hamilton in Russia and Monaco. Hamilton was just slow and not Bottas suddenly amazing those weekends.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:27 pm 
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Personally I think Vettel defended pretty poor against Hamilton, if he just went on the inside Hamilton wouldn’t have got past. I don’t know what Vettel was like before the race and over the weekend in general but he seemed pretty down in his interview and loss of practice time with what happened in Japan and Malaysia was probably the last straw.

If that was Danny, Max or even Bottas then Hamilton wouldn’t have got past in the same scenario.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:40 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
That perception comes purely from Hamilton's performance. On clear Merc tracks like Monza and Baku, you don't see Vettel out-qualify Bottas and you certainly don't see Kimi faster than him during the race.

This is not about the car. It's about two things primarily; the fact that Hamilton is extremely strong here and the fact that Vettel got very little running on Friday and was on the back foot both yesterday and today. Raikkonen was quicker than him in the race and yet both were easily quicker than Bottas.


It comes from the whole weekend. Quali where Lewis should have had a 3.5-4ths advantage(Which is between what he quoted his mechanics predicted) and then the race where the Mercedes which is the worst car in dirty air stick to the rear of the Ferrari and passed easily. You simply can't do that without a big pace advantage.

Built a 5s gap the team threw away and built another 9s gap on what was arguably the slower strategy. It's a clearer "win" than Hungary or Monaco which are treated as slam dunk Ferrari tracks to be fair.

This was Malaysia in reverse and they're still trading blows track to track. Mexico could be completely different.

Again, you are only looking at Hamilton's performance and ignoring the very obvious fact that Vettel did not have an optimal weekend and was struggling during the race. Hamilton and Mercedes had a perfect weekend while Vettel and Ferrari barely got any running on Friday and never got locked in all weekend. Even so, both Ferrari's were easily quicker than Bottas. Why ignore that? Why use Hamilton's performance as the baseline?


You don't judge a cars pace by the slower driver who's being overlooked strategy wise and is saying himself he's all at sea so I've got to look at Lewis. He set a purple S1 on his last run in Q3 but lost the 0.150 advantage over the rest of the lap because of wind he said. Seb nailed his to be fair but was still 2ths shy so adding the 0.150 lost at least gives it 3.5ths over Ferrari in Q. Lewis said in the same interview on Sky his mechanics predicted 0.2-0.4 advantage for Mercedes.

Then today Lewis can follow as close as Ferrari could in Spa despite being an infamously worse car in dirty air and passes it with ease and builds comfortable gaps twice. Seb's missed Friday running plenty of times in his career and Kimi's not a rookie so can get the car in a good spot so I'm not convinced that missing Friday running is suddenly so detrimental.

Bottas is no barometer just now, he's too far away and using Kimi to judge the Ferrari pace in places like Australia or Bahrain would get laughed at. It honestly looked like a Merc track just as much as Malaysia looked a Ferrari one to me.

Hamilton is no baramoeter either. To use him as the barometer, you would have to believe that the others could match him if they were in the same car. I've not seen anyone who can match his pace in the same car since his rookie season with Fernando Alonso. I also happen to think he's performing at his absolute peak at the moment.

I don't think Bottas is particularly lost at the moment. Certainly he went through a very rough patch but I feel he bounced back in Japan and was solid here too. Vettel was slower than Raikkonen today and was burning through his tires. To me that's a sign that he didn't get the setup quite right or perhaps just didn't get to do a really good long run simulation. His lack of running did make an impact this week.

Anyway, I'm going to stop getting in these discussions because it's useless. I just feel the need to point out at least once that you are simply looking at Hamilton's performance and attributing it to the car when the other guy in the same car (a guy who has proven capable of winning when the car is up to it) finished behind both Ferraris and the Red Bull. That's not something that happens much for Bottas; even when he isn't in top form.


Lewis can't go quicker than the car allows no matter his form, which fwiw I think has been flawless since Hungary Q, so he's the only barometer. Bottas has been talking about how badly he's been performing and he's averaging nearly half a second slower since Canada. He was awful today with going life and death with a RB with the older engine while Lewis was passing a Ferrari and going into the distance.

His defense against Seb was non-existent too. He just had a mare again, he was caught and passed by someone starting at the back while Lewis ran unopposed up front comfortably. It's just too much.

I haven't posted much on here lately as I feel they've all been easy to call since the summer and I don't think this was any different to be honest but was a little surprised to see some debate.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:59 pm 
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If we are suddenly going to use Bottas and Raikkonen as yardsticks, is it safe to call Mercedes the best car in Australia? And for most of the season, in fact, since Bottas is clearly ahead of Kimi in the standings.

The reality of the situation is that Bottas is no more of a yardstick than Kimi is.


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