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who is faster? Merc or Ferrari?
Poll runs till Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:35 am
Ferrari 38%  38%  [ 45 ]
Mercedes 62%  62%  [ 73 ]
Total votes : 118
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:32 pm 
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Horner said RB have been the fastest race car for the last 4 weekends.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:34 pm 
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They certainly looked the fastest here,Max had so much in the tank it was scary. Not sure I'd agree with the previous 3 though.

Unless something bizarre happens over the winter and Renault blow it, It's looking very good for RB next year.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Horner talks a load of crap, but they looked fastest today.

Difficult to judge Ferrari vs Mercedes because they were all in different races. Kimi was stuck behind the Force Indias and by the time he cleared them, Bottas was too far up the road. Vettel made his way through traffic easier than Hamilton, but Lewis had floor damage.

Ferrari in qualifying and I'm inclined to say Ferrari for the race but not based on much evidence.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:37 pm 
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Yeah here was RB>Ferrari>Mercedes for me.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:39 pm 
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Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:42 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.



I think Ferrari's concept is too fundamentally sound. Merc have more chance to drop the ball IMO because they'll probably make the biggest changes to their car but I also give them the best chance of being the outright best too.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:46 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.



I think Ferrari's concept is too fundamentally sound. Merc have more chance to drop the ball IMO because they'll probably make the biggest changes to their car but I also give them the best chance of being the outright best too.


Most of what I have found online so far seem to indicate Mercedes abandoning this years car in favor of a short wheel based, high rake design concept for next year. This could lead to a very slow development cycle.

On the other hand, they could nail it. J.Allison said post-race today that the attention has been on next year for months.

Either way, I am so excited for 2018. The prospect of 4 teams at the top is mouth-watering.


Last edited by Malkiiin on Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:46 pm 
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The thing for next year is that reliability will probably be even more crucial. Renault have got to nail their reliability improvements for 2018. Slower and steadier could win the battle next time.

It's 3 PUs that need to last the season rather than 4, right?


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.



I think Ferrari's concept is too fundamentally sound. Merc have more chance to drop the ball IMO because they'll probably make the biggest changes to their car but I also give them the best chance of being the outright best too.

I agree with you in principle but I think there are some other considerations here too. Ferrari still have all of the internal drama of constant re-structuring and shake-ups. I think they could really use some stability now that they have so clearly made strides during this era with Maurizio Arrivabene and Sebastian Vettel. They need to stabilize this situation instead of all the constant threats of firings and re-shuffles from the top.

I think my prediction as of now, is that 2018 will be a lot like 2012. I expect Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull to all be competitive and I also predict that they will be joined at the front by McLaren and Renault to some extent. I think 2018 will be the year where the mid-field teams really close up. Honda was really the only thing keeping that from happening this year as McLaren seem totally convinced that their chassis is top shelf.

It's hard to call it for Merc though. I think their time at the top may finally come to an end in 2018 but I struggle to imagine them simply not being competitive at all. I seriously doubt that.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:48 pm 
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Malkiiin wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.



I think Ferrari's concept is too fundamentally sound. Merc have more chance to drop the ball IMO because they'll probably make the biggest changes to their car but I also give them the best chance of being the outright best too.


Most of what I have found online so far seem to indicate Mercedes abandoning this years car in favor of a short wheel based, high rake design concept for next year. This could lead to a very slow development cycle.

On the other hand, they could nail it. J.Allison said post-race today that the attention has been on next year for months.

Either way, I am so excited for 2018. The prospect of 4 teams at the top is mouth-watering.


James also said that the cars will be much faster next year than this year with a sort of excitable tone that suggests that the work going on at Mercedes is already very positive and that they expect huge gains already.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:50 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Malkiiin wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.



I think Ferrari's concept is too fundamentally sound. Merc have more chance to drop the ball IMO because they'll probably make the biggest changes to their car but I also give them the best chance of being the outright best too.


Most of what I have found online so far seem to indicate Mercedes abandoning this years car in favor of a short wheel based, high rake design concept for next year. This could lead to a very slow development cycle.

On the other hand, they could nail it. J.Allison said post-race today that the attention has been on next year for months.

Either way, I am so excited for 2018. The prospect of 4 teams at the top is mouth-watering.


James also said that the cars will be much faster next year than this year with a sort of excitable tone that suggests that the work going on at Mercedes is already very positive and that they expect huge gains already.


Yea. They have the air of quiet confidence regarding 2018. I hope its not misplaced.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.


Agree. Lewis actually has a bit of a decision to make contract wise looking at the current form, I think it might get put back until summer time rather than sorting it out over the winter.

I'd want a look at next years cars first anyway.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:51 pm 
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The tyres are a joke, half race on the US. Even if the top 3 did carry on as normal it would have just been a train to the stops then to the end. I'm sure I heard/read that Pirelli was going to change the tyres next year after going conservative for the new regs, I really hope they do. The Merc is also currently best built for these tyres by who gets pole and leads at the first corner.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:51 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Invade wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.



I think Ferrari's concept is too fundamentally sound. Merc have more chance to drop the ball IMO because they'll probably make the biggest changes to their car but I also give them the best chance of being the outright best too.

I agree with you in principle but I think there are some other considerations here too. Ferrari still have all of the internal drama of constant re-structuring and shake-ups. I think they could really use some stability now that they have so clearly made strides during this era with Maurizio Arrivabene and Sebastian Vettel. They need to stabilize this situation instead of all the constant threats of firings and re-shuffles from the top.

I think my prediction as of now, is that 2018 will be a lot like 2012. I expect Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull to all be competitive and I also predict that they will be joined at the front by McLaren and Renault to some extent. I think 2018 will be the year where the mid-field teams really close up. Honda was really the only thing keeping that from happening this year as McLaren seem totally convinced that their chassis is top shelf.

It's hard to call it for Merc though. I think their time at the top may finally come to an end in 2018 but I struggle to imagine them simply not being competitive at all. I seriously doubt that.


Merc are too professional and pour too many resources into it to be "bad" but they will be taking a risk if they change the fundamental concept of their car. They have a super reliable engine already covered and we know it has excellent performance. Ferrari do need stability and should bolster around the fringes and not the core, as Ross Brawn more or less put it.

I pretty much carry the same prediction as you do.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:55 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.


Agree. Lewis actually has a bit of a decision to make contract wise looking at the current form, I think it might get put back until summer time rather than sorting it out over the winter.

I'd want a look at next years cars first anyway.

I was thinking that myself. If Merc get it right, Lewis can just stay put but if they fall behind next year, with Max staying put at Red Bull, I can see Lewis ending up at Ferrari or, dare I say it, McLaren in 2019. That sounds impossibly far-fetched but I can see it happening.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:56 pm 
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There would surely be some serious allure in winning a WDC with a third team.


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:00 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.


Agree. Lewis actually has a bit of a decision to make contract wise looking at the current form, I think it might get put back until summer time rather than sorting it out over the winter.

I'd want a look at next years cars first anyway.

I was thinking that myself. If Merc get it right, Lewis can just stay put but if they fall behind next year, with Max staying put at Red Bull, I can see Lewis ending up at Ferrari or, dare I say it, McLaren in 2019. That sounds impossibly far-fetched but I can see it happening.


Yeah all bets are off. I genuinely wouldn't even rule out Renault for 2019 as bonkers as that might sound. Every single time they've committed as a works team they have won, every time, and with Budkowski(sp) incoming you'd fancy them to get there or thereabouts for 2019/20.

I'd want a good look at Enstone anyway, I think extending over the winter would be risky but it's a very interesting dynamic we've got next year in a lot of big areas.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:05 pm 
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Invade wrote:
There would surely be some serious allure in winning a WDC with a third team.


I think this could well be the way the thinking goes for Hamilton if Mercedes aren't at the cutting edge next year. Wouldn't be at all surprised if he has one eye on the Red team too, it's the one thing his idol never did get the chance to fulfill and to win with a 3rd team and have that team be Ferrari would be a seriously huge deal that would put him undisputedly up there in the pantheon of the all time greats.

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:09 pm 
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Invade wrote:
There would surely be some serious allure in winning a WDC with a third team.


And a different engine maker to boot. Bit unusual for a driver to be attached to one engine for his entire career isn't it?. One for the stat men, not wdc but just racing wise as well.

Alonso has raced with 5..(Ford,Renault,Mercedes,Ferrari and Honda)
Vettel has 3..(BMW,Ferrari and Renault)

(Patrick would have known that in a flash :( )

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:15 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Invade wrote:
There would surely be some serious allure in winning a WDC with a third team.


And a different engine maker to boot. Bit unusual for a driver to be attached to one engine for his entire career isn't it?. One for the stat men, not wdc but just racing wise as well.

Alonso has raced with 5..(Ford,Renault,Mercedes,Ferrari and Honda)
Vettel has 3..(BMW,Ferrari and Renault)

(Patrick would have known that in a flash :( )



Top point there, sir.



( :( )


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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:47 pm 
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MEX

Ferrrari = RBR_with_new_spec_engine
ahead of Mercedes


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 12:53 am 
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A lot has been made of Mercedes qualifying advantage and it giving them track position. Its not really true, because Vettel has overtaken Hamilton 3 times at turn 1 this season it has made it dead even who was ahead after turn 1;

It means that after the first corner-
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 9 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 9 times

At the end of first lap;
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 10 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 8 times

The 10 times Hamilton was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 7 times
The 8 times Vettel was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 6 times

These figures are also partly inflated by Vettel crashing out on lap 1 in Singapore and starting last in Malaysia when he would have had pole and a much better chance to be ahead of Hamilton at the end of the first lap. Without those incidences Vettel would probably have been ahead of Hamilton more times than Hamilton ahead of Vettel at the end of the first lap.

Vettel has had 4 poles, he has only managed to lead after the first lap in one of them. In 3 of his 4 wins, he was not leading on the first lap or for any of the first stint.

The pole sitter has maintained the lead at the end of the first lap in 13 of 18 races. Of those 13 races he has gone on to win just 8 times.

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Last edited by lamo on Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:34 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.


Agree. Lewis actually has a bit of a decision to make contract wise looking at the current form, I think it might get put back until summer time rather than sorting it out over the winter.

I'd want a look at next years cars first anyway.

Were else can he go?

Anyway it's already been said his new contract will be sorted out soon after the season has finished, I would think a 2 year contract taking him to the end of 2020 when the present Concorde agreement ends.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:37 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Mercedes are really the team that most have to go back to the drawing board. Their chassis is clearly a bit inferior to the high-rake, narrow wheel-based Red Bull and Ferrari chassis. Mercedes are relying heavily on the engine to keep them competitive and I think that they will need to produce a more nimble car if they want to be able to win it again next year.

I must say that it's hard to look past Red Bull and even Mclaren for me. I just see those teams coming to the fore now that Renault seem to be serious about things. Earlier this year I would have simply predicted 2018 to be another battle between Hamilton and Vettel but now I woudln't be surprised if one (or possibly even both) of them is not even in the fight.


Agree. Lewis actually has a bit of a decision to make contract wise looking at the current form, I think it might get put back until summer time rather than sorting it out over the winter.

I'd want a look at next years cars first anyway.

I was thinking that myself. If Merc get it right, Lewis can just stay put but if they fall behind next year, with Max staying put at Red Bull, I can see Lewis ending up at Ferrari or, dare I say it, McLaren in 2019. That sounds impossibly far-fetched but I can see it happening.

Hamilton said that the Ferrari door was shut when Vettel re-signed.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:42 am 
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lamo wrote:
A lot has been made of Mercedes qualifying advantage and it giving them track position. Its not really true, because Vettel has overtaken Hamilton 3 times at turn 1 this season it has made it dead even who was ahead after turn 1;

It means that after the first corner-
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 9 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 9 times

At the end of first lap;
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 10 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 8 times

The 10 times Hamilton was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 7 times
The 8 times Vettel was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 6 times

These figures are also partly inflated by Vettel crashing out on lap 1 in Singapore and starting last in Malaysia when he would have had pole and a much better chance to be ahead of Hamilton at the end of the first lap. Without those incidences Vettel would probably have been ahead of Hamilton more times than Hamilton ahead of Vettel at the end of the first lap.

Vettel has had 4 poles, he has only managed to lead after the first lap in one of them. In 3 of his 4 wins, he was not leading on the first lap of for any of the first stint.

The pole sitter has maintained the lead at the end of the first lap in 13 of 18 races. Of those 13 races he has gone on to win just 8 times.

Very interesting so basically a lot of nonsense has been spoken about the Mercedes being better because it's qualified better.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:50 am 
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lamo wrote:
A lot has been made of Mercedes qualifying advantage and it giving them track position. Its not really true, because Vettel has overtaken Hamilton 3 times at turn 1 this season it has made it dead even who was ahead after turn 1;

It means that after the first corner-
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 9 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 9 times

At the end of first lap;
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 10 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 8 times

The 10 times Hamilton was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 7 times
The 8 times Vettel was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 6 times

These figures are also partly inflated by Vettel crashing out on lap 1 in Singapore and starting last in Malaysia when he would have had pole and a much better chance to be ahead of Hamilton at the end of the first lap. Without those incidences Vettel would probably have been ahead of Hamilton more times than Hamilton ahead of Vettel at the end of the first lap.

Vettel has had 4 poles, he has only managed to lead after the first lap in one of them. In 3 of his 4 wins, he was not leading on the first lap of for any of the first stint.

The pole sitter has maintained the lead at the end of the first lap in 13 of 18 races. Of those 13 races he has gone on to win just 8 times.

You kind of forgot to mention Bottas who has played an important role this season, especially in Russia and Austria where he was ahead of Vettel on lap 1. He took 14 points from Vettel in those two races alone. Kimi hasn't been useful enough to take any significant points from Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 1:53 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
A lot has been made of Mercedes qualifying advantage and it giving them track position. Its not really true, because Vettel has overtaken Hamilton 3 times at turn 1 this season it has made it dead even who was ahead after turn 1;

It means that after the first corner-
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 9 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 9 times

At the end of first lap;
Hamilton has been ahead of Vettel - 10 times
Vettel has been ahead of Hamilton - 8 times

The 10 times Hamilton was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 7 times
The 8 times Vettel was ahead after the first lap, he finished ahead - 6 times

These figures are also partly inflated by Vettel crashing out on lap 1 in Singapore and starting last in Malaysia when he would have had pole and a much better chance to be ahead of Hamilton at the end of the first lap. Without those incidences Vettel would probably have been ahead of Hamilton more times than Hamilton ahead of Vettel at the end of the first lap.

Vettel has had 4 poles, he has only managed to lead after the first lap in one of them. In 3 of his 4 wins, he was not leading on the first lap of for any of the first stint.

The pole sitter has maintained the lead at the end of the first lap in 13 of 18 races. Of those 13 races he has gone on to win just 8 times.

You kind of forgot to mention Bottas who has played an important role this season, especially in Russia and Austria where he was ahead of Vettel on lap 1. He took 14 points from Vettel in those two races alone. Kimi hasn't been useful enough to take any significant points from Hamilton.

How does that change being on pole position not being vital to winning the race?

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:29 am 
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Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:00 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 4:15 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Important, but clearly not as vital as some have made out.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:19 am 
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kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance".

You've completely missed the mark. I never said that pole has always won this season. I said that Vettel has demonstrably lost multiple races this season due to not being on pole. China, Austria and Belgium are daylight clear examples. Vettel has also lost races this season due to not having an engine powerful enough. Spain is the obvious example (Belgium can be put under this umbrella too).

Hamilton has not lost a single win this season due to not being on pole, with the exception of Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate rather than another car. Hamilton has also never lost a race because of engine power. He has won two races thanks to engine power though: Spain and Belgium.

Nobody here has said that Vettel has driven a perfect season. I am merely pointing out that the superior qualifying speed and engine power of the Mercedes has gained Hamilton a net 52 points over Vettel.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:27 am 
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kleefton wrote:
In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one



This one can easily be put down to engine power too. Bottas' start wasn't even that much better than Vettel. The gap between them stays roughly the same until they go over 200 kph and the Mercedes power + slipstream kicks in.

Indeed Bottas had 4 kph on Vettel in Russia, which helped him drive straight past on the opening lap.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:35 am 
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kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. This Championship has been won as much on Saturdays as it has on Sundays, if not more so. Qualifying has had a significant impact on race outcomes and has been a major weapon in Mercedes' armoury.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:43 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance".

You've completely missed the mark. I never said that pole has always won this season. I said that Vettel has demonstrably lost multiple races this season due to not being on pole. China, Austria and Belgium are daylight clear examples. Vettel has also lost races this season due to not having an engine powerful enough. Spain is the obvious example (Belgium can be put under this umbrella too).

Hamilton has not lost a single win this season due to not being on pole, with the exception of Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate rather than another car. Hamilton has also never lost a race because of engine power. He has won two races thanks to engine power though: Spain and Belgium.

Nobody here has said that Vettel has driven a perfect season. I am merely pointing out that the superior qualifying speed and engine power of the Mercedes has gained Hamilton a net 52 points over Vettel.


Spain is not an obvious example, that race was lost to the VSC and Bottas holding Vettel up.

Vettel could have won China until the SC changed the whole race. It's very difficult to overtake in similar pace cars but in China you have a better chance than most.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:46 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one



This one can easily be put down to engine power too. Bottas' start wasn't even that much better than Vettel. The gap between them stays roughly the same until they go over 200 kph and the Mercedes power + slipstream kicks in.

Indeed Bottas had 4 kph on Vettel in Russia, which helped him drive straight past on the opening lap.


The second part of Bottas getaway was much better than Vettel's, gets in the slipstream and you don't have much chance.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:50 am 
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kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.


Yep pretty easy to work out if it wasn't for Vettel's driving and reliability then he would be well in this title race going down to the final race of the season.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:21 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance".

You've completely missed the mark. I never said that pole has always won this season. I said that Vettel has demonstrably lost multiple races this season due to not being on pole. China, Austria and Belgium are daylight clear examples. Vettel has also lost races this season due to not having an engine powerful enough. Spain is the obvious example (Belgium can be put under this umbrella too).

Hamilton has not lost a single win this season due to not being on pole, with the exception of Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate rather than another car. Hamilton has also never lost a race because of engine power. He has won two races thanks to engine power though: Spain and Belgium.

Nobody here has said that Vettel has driven a perfect season. I am merely pointing out that the superior qualifying speed and engine power of the Mercedes has gained Hamilton a net 52 points over Vettel.


I understood your point and don't believe I have missed the mark at all. In essence you believe that Vettel had no chance at the title because Mercedes has dominated qualifying. First of all only Hamilton has dominated qualifying. Vettel handily beat Bottas.

So I and others are arguing that is false. Like I mentioned Austria and Spa are not good examples of where pole was vital. There were other elements that prevented the driver behind to do what has been prevalent this year; take the lead into turn one.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:30 am 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. This Championship has been won as much on Saturdays as it has on Sundays, if not more so. Qualifying has had a significant impact on race outcomes and has been a major weapon in Mercedes' armoury.


No it has not. Because the pole sitter has lost the lead pretty often and it has become clear that at almost every race his position will be challenged in the first lap. P2 has never been a bad place to start a race anyway and this is where Vettel has found himself most of the time this year. There is only one venue where you can say pole is vital; Monaco.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:07 am 
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kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. This Championship has been won as much on Saturdays as it has on Sundays, if not more so. Qualifying has had a significant impact on race outcomes and has been a major weapon in Mercedes' armoury.


No it has not. Because the pole sitter has lost the lead pretty often and it has become clear that at almost every race his position will be challenged in the first lap. P2 has never been a bad place to start a race anyway and this is where Vettel has found himself most of the time this year. There is only one venue where you can say pole is vital; Monaco.

It's a massive advantage. I don't know how anyone can deny that, really.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:36 am 
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Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
Zoue wrote:
kleefton wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
Because pole has been vital to this season. Not being on pole is the main reason to why Vettel did not win in China, Austria or Belgium.

China: Ferrari risked pitting Vettel early for slicks because Hamilton had track position. If Vettel was on pole and leading the race, Mercedes and Hamilton would be the ones having to risk it.

Austria: Vettel cannot pass Bottas

Belgium: Vettel cannot pass Hamilton

If he had been on pole in these three races, he would have probably won all 3. That's 3 more wins for Vettel and 2 less wins for Hamilton. That's 21 more points for Vettel and 14 less points for Hamilton. That is a 38 point swing in those three races alone.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because he didn't take pole. Whenever Hamilton has not been on pole this season, he's generally not had the pace to win either. The only exception is Bahrain, where he ironically lost pole to his own teammate.

Then there's Spain, which Mercedes won not thanks to their qualifying speed, but rather thanks to engine power. Vettel is 2 seconds/lap faster than Bottas but still has to make a dangerous pass on the brakes. Hamilton is 1.5 seconds/lap faster than Vettel and passes him easily with DRS before the braking zone even. That's another 14 point swing.

Hamilton has not lost a single race this season because of lack of top speed. He has however won several races thanks to Mercedes power. Spain and Belgium are the obvious ones.


Oh please stop it.

In Russia Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn one.
In Bahrain Bottas got pole and lost the race.
At COTA Hamilton got pole but lost the lead into turn one
At Mexico Vettel got pole and lost the lead into turn 2.
Even in Belgium, Vettel had two excellent chances to overtake but Hamilton defended well and denied him.
And let's not forget Botta's' borderline false start in Austria that didn't give Vettel a chance of attacking him in turn one.

To say that pole has been vital this season is just plain wrong. There have been plenty of occasions where the driver on pole has not gotten the job done and won the race. Yes, overtaking the car in front has proven difficult, but it has also been done plenty of times this year. Lewis out qualifying Vettel is not even remotely close to being the main reason Vettel lost this championship and "never had a chance". More sensible driving and more reliability from his team would have given him a great chance at this title. You have to be completely blind if you do not realize this.

Sorry, but I don't agree with that at all. This Championship has been won as much on Saturdays as it has on Sundays, if not more so. Qualifying has had a significant impact on race outcomes and has been a major weapon in Mercedes' armoury.


No it has not. Because the pole sitter has lost the lead pretty often and it has become clear that at almost every race his position will be challenged in the first lap. P2 has never been a bad place to start a race anyway and this is where Vettel has found himself most of the time this year. There is only one venue where you can say pole is vital; Monaco.

It's a massive advantage. I don't know how anyone can deny that, really.


It's a big advantage because most tracks layouts, these cars and the tyres doing half a race on the softest compounds.
Ferrari would still be in the title hunt till the very last race without reliability and Vettel's driving though. Maybe even leading after Mexico. So the quali advantage still might not have made that much difference.

_________________
Podiums: 1st Spain 2016, 2nd Germany 2016 and 3rd Mexico 2016


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