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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 8:22 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.

Sounds like echoes of McLaren 2012/13, where McLaren had a top car but felt they had reached the end of its design potential. And we all know what happened next!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 9:36 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.

Sounds like echoes of McLaren 2012/13, where McLaren had a top car but felt they had reached the end of its design potential. And we all know what happened next!


The difference is that Mercedes would be revamping with a good few seasons to go until the next major regulation changes. There is time to refine it, even if it means a slow start to next season.

Mclaren took their baffling gamble to go down a totally different design path with just one season of those regs still to go.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:20 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 06, 2017 10:31 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.

Sounds like echoes of McLaren 2012/13, where McLaren had a top car but felt they had reached the end of its design potential. And we all know what happened next!

The strange thing with the 2012 McLaren was that they couldn't understand why it was so fast, maybe in part that's why they felt the need to change it, then the 2013 car that should have been much better was worse, correlation problems?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:10 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?


Yup. Toto said more rake and less boat.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:01 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


I think the wheelbase is a bit of a red herring, really its marginal between the teams.

From what I've read the banning of Merc's hydraulic heave spring just before the season began was a key issue, as that was what made their low rake concept really tick as it cancelled out the balance issues that this concept caused. Toss in their initial weight challenges and they spent much of the first half of the season trying to replace an unexpected loss and resolve weight issues rather than creating 'new' improvements.

I don't think we've seen anything to say there will be a complete redesign of concept, other than an expectation based on the 'issues' they have and the comments they can't fix it until the winter. But it could be that they're not changing concept, more that they know they have an issue but they want some extensive testing before they take the chance with the fix given everything that was at stake during the season. They can maintain their low rake concept, but still bring significant change (ie something suspension related).


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 3:17 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?


Yup. Toto said more rake and less boat.

Sounds like a major redesign to me?

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Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?


Yup. Toto said more rake and less boat.

Sounds like a major redesign to me?


That's exactly what I thought when he said that. Which is why I'm eager to see how it pans out in 2018. If they miss the mark, Ferrari would easily win the title. I don't foresee Red Bull challenging them with the anchor they have for an engine.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:41 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?


Yup. Toto said more rake and less boat.

Sounds like a major redesign to me?


That's exactly what I thought when he said that. Which is why I'm eager to see how it pans out in 2018. If they miss the mark, Ferrari would easily win the title. I don't foresee Red Bull challenging them with the anchor they have for an engine.

I think clearly the Mercedes was starting to tread water, how often was it second/third fastest car in the second half of the season, none of the updates seem to bring a big increase in performance like we saw with Ferrari and even more so with Red Bull, I think the writing was going to be on the wall if they had continued with their concept?

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2013: 5th Place
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2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 4:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I think clearly the Mercedes was starting to tread water, how often was it second/third fastest car in the second half of the season, none of the updates seem to bring a big increase in performance like we saw with Ferrari and even more so with Red Bull, I think the writing was going to be on the wall if they had continued with their concept?

Around Singapore they were slow because of the layout. In Sepang it was because of the weather. In Mexico it was a combination of both.

As long as the weather was not extremely hot and/or the track layout was normal (USA, Japan), Merc was still the best car.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 5:14 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I think clearly the Mercedes was starting to tread water, how often was it second/third fastest car in the second half of the season, none of the updates seem to bring a big increase in performance like we saw with Ferrari and even more so with Red Bull, I think the writing was going to be on the wall if they had continued with their concept?

Around Singapore they were slow because of the layout. In Sepang it was because of the weather. In Mexico it was a combination of both.

As long as the weather was not extremely hot and/or the track layout was normal (USA, Japan), Merc was still the best car.

You determine the Mercedes was the best car in Japan and the USA because Hamilton won and his main rivals had problems?

In Austin Vettel lost time on race set up after he went off the track in P2 and damaged his tyres whilst Verstappen had to start from 16th, Bottas finished 5th.

In Japan Vettel's car failed at the start of the race whilst Verstappen finished 1 second behind after keeping Hamilton honest all race long, Bottas finished 4th.

So default position is when Hamilton wins he has the best car, also I think you miss the point about the Mercedes being critical on both weather conditions and track layout isn't really optimum for what might be considered the best car going forward into next year?

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:22 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
That's exactly what I thought when he said that. Which is why I'm eager to see how it pans out in 2018. If they miss the mark, Ferrari would easily win the title. I don't foresee Red Bull challenging them with the anchor they have for an engine.

I think clearly the Mercedes was starting to tread water, how often was it second/third fastest car in the second half of the season, none of the updates seem to bring a big increase in performance like we saw with Ferrari and even more so with Red Bull, I think the writing was going to be on the wall if they had continued with their concept?


You'd expect next year's Ferrari to be at least 0.5 secs faster than this year. I think Mercedes didn't think it was possible to eke out his much performance from their car's low rake, long wheelbase philosophy.

If Ferrari fails to win next year, I'd say they should just pack up the team and go home.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 7:50 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.


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PostPosted: Tue Nov 07, 2017 9:36 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.


Cheers for the info. Risky but probably not much choice for them I guess.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 12:43 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.

He's already said he's going to re-sign over the winter and you have to think that after winning 3 titles in 4 years he has massive faith in the team not to even consider leaving plus were would he go, the doors are closed at both Ferrari and Red Bull.

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2013: 5th Place
2014: Champion
2015: 3rd Place
2016: 4th Place

2017: Currently 15th

Podiums: 2nd Canada 2015, 3rd Monza 2016, Hungary 2016 and Barcelona 2015


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.

He's already said he's going to re-sign over the winter and you have to think that after winning 3 titles in 4 years he has massive faith in the team not to even consider leaving plus were would he go, the doors are closed at both Ferrari and Red Bull.


I think sandman's just urging some caution and to me that makes perfect sense. Who knows what the landscape is going to be team wise and driver wise after 2018 and if Lewis signs a 2-3 year deal before seeing the new concept and competitive order hit the track then its a bit more luck than judgement really if it works out.

There are drivers out of contract at the end of next year at all 5 of the potential big hitters for 2019 so what does it hurt to take your time a bit and sort it out mid season?.

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-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:00 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.

He's already said he's going to re-sign over the winter and you have to think that after winning 3 titles in 4 years he has massive faith in the team not to even consider leaving plus were would he go, the doors are closed at both Ferrari and Red Bull.


I think sandman's just urging some caution and to me that makes perfect sense. Who knows what the landscape is going to be team wise and driver wise after 2018 and if Lewis signs a 2-3 year deal before seeing the new concept and competitive order hit the track then its a bit more luck than judgement really if it works out.

There are drivers out of contract at the end of next year at all 5 of the potential big hitters for 2019 so what does it hurt to take your time a bit and sort it out mid season?.

Well like I said I don't believe there is a place for him at either Red Bull or Ferrari, Red Bull who said they are going to build the team around Verstappen whilst Hamilton himself said that Vettel re-signing for Ferrari closes that door for him and makes his contract decision so much easier as in staying with Mercedes, I would say it's guaranteed that he signs a 2 year contact with Mercedes I can't see why he would have a thought in doubting them, also delaying his decision then starts to alienate him within the team.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:03 am 
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James Allison talked quite a bit about teams honing their weapons for next year. In the terms he talks I don't expect a complete overhaul but maybe half measures which narrow the concept gap between themselves and Red Bull (as the furthest other extreme out of the three top teams). I get the impression Mercedes will still look to find their own unique balance rather than suddenly increasing the rake to 2.0 ish and having a much shorter wheelbase and whatnot. The problem for Mercedes is that even at the beginning of the year their car looked convoluted - it looked developed. The Red Bull looked clean and unaffected and they had the time to develop their car slowly and understand the regulations extremely thoroughly while being able to apply ideas to a blank canvas.

I feel the Mercedes car itself is a bit underrated and that they can afford to build on their concept still but that it might have a lower ceiling and lead them into problems especially for 2019-2020. Perhaps it's better to be more radical, potentially lose out in 2018 and be able to bounce back strong in the following years. I don't really know, but the tone in which James Allison has talked recently suggests Mercedes are hardly unconfident of the work being done for their 2018 "weapon".


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:09 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Invade wrote:
Merc need to be more than just holding back a bit to be ahead of Ferrari I think. One thing I'm wondering about is their qualifying pace. We know that Merc turn it up for Q3 so I can envision a scenario where they outqualify Ferrari but only have at best equal race pace to begin the year, and therefore could hold off Ferrari who would be hounding them for the whole race or races.. the early races in the season that is.

Mercedes have a much less blank canvas than Red Bull, so I think Red Bull will make the biggest gains through being able to apply their fundamental understanding of the regulations onto a less distorted canvas. Mercedes could run into some trouble in that area this season, though they have James Allison, who oversaw the exploitation (I assume) of the sidepods which Ferrari have untapped. That will be good for 2018.

If Mercedes are strongest this year it will be by virtue of clinging onto old philosophies and warping them to work today, whereas Ferrari have an approach that takes more direct advantage of the current regs and Red Bull have an open outlook which can lead to an eventual application which is filled with clarity. Mercedes look more all in and also more convoluted. I do expect a highly competitive year with Red Bull coming on strong by the end and being in prime position in 2018 over Merc and Ferrari.

Yes yes I know I'm making stupidly and stupendously bold predictions about the very distant future. Allow me some fun. ;)


Allow me yet more fun even though I didn't actually make any concrete predictions regarding who'd win the Championships.

This looks solid right now but Red Bull need to be super strong in 2018 to complete the deal. Also, it implies that Mercedes have the least potential in development by continuing to tweak a now ageing concept and understanding under new regs.

I do expect Red Bull to be great from the start in 2018 and that they're warming into a terrific understanding of the regulations regarding their car. I think Mercedes will be the weakest of the three as they'll make larger changes to their fundamental design albeit it won't be a complete redesign. Instead it will be them who make the fastest gains but unlike Red Bull they'll make them fast enough in 2018 to be able to realistically fight for at least one Championship.

Next season could be won on reliability. I could envisage Red Bull having an edge on Ferrari and Mercedes in races but that their engines will fail more often and that they'll take more penalties. Ferrari will continue their strong work and not many important heads will roll; they will learn from the errors of 2017 and close the gap to Mercedes regarding their race weekend operations. I expect a race down to the wire for both Championships for 2018.

Let's see.

PS, I'll add that I do expect good things from McLaren in 2018 and that 2019 will see Renault truly enter the fray as a team who can win races.

Yeah you had a good heads up for this year and next year I wouldn't too surprised if you are not right.

Regarding Mercedes you are saying they will not have a complete redesign, so they keep the long wheelbase and stay away from the high rake concept?


I expect a slightly shorter wheelbase but not hugely and slightly more rake. A compromise. You could call it a lack of decisiveness but I just think Mercedes have confidence in finding their own balance while retaining much of the core DNA of their car.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:17 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.

He's already said he's going to re-sign over the winter and you have to think that after winning 3 titles in 4 years he has massive faith in the team not to even consider leaving plus were would he go, the doors are closed at both Ferrari and Red Bull.


I think sandman's just urging some caution and to me that makes perfect sense. Who knows what the landscape is going to be team wise and driver wise after 2018 and if Lewis signs a 2-3 year deal before seeing the new concept and competitive order hit the track then its a bit more luck than judgement really if it works out.

There are drivers out of contract at the end of next year at all 5 of the potential big hitters for 2019 so what does it hurt to take your time a bit and sort it out mid season?.

Well like I said I don't believe there is a place for him at either Red Bull or Ferrari, Red Bull who said they are going to build the team around Verstappen whilst Hamilton himself said that Vettel re-signing for Ferrari closes that door for him and makes his contract decision so much easier as in staying with Mercedes, I would say it's guaranteed that he signs a 2 year contact with Mercedes I can't see why he would have a thought in doubting them, also delaying his decision then starts to alienate him within the team.


Teams aren't that sensitive. They dump drivers and staff all the time if they aren't performing as expected, its perfectly normal for a driver to wait until mid season before committing on a new deal in F1.

Why only 2 years?. Lining up with Mercedes contract with Bernie ending or an eye elsewhere?.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:22 am 
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I think it would be wise for Lewis to keep Merc on their toes - they've done it plenty to Lewis. Merc are fair but also have very high expectations of their drivers. Toto can barely hide his disappointment when Bottas doesn't quite get the position he thought the car was capable of. Toto is reasonable and diplomatic but he's also transparent if you watch closely enough. Lewis should have high expectations of Merc and expect a very good car and he would be wise to wait to see how good that car is and to know the long-term plans and aims going forward from that point.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:29 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.

He's already said he's going to re-sign over the winter and you have to think that after winning 3 titles in 4 years he has massive faith in the team not to even consider leaving plus were would he go, the doors are closed at both Ferrari and Red Bull.


I think sandman's just urging some caution and to me that makes perfect sense. Who knows what the landscape is going to be team wise and driver wise after 2018 and if Lewis signs a 2-3 year deal before seeing the new concept and competitive order hit the track then its a bit more luck than judgement really if it works out.

There are drivers out of contract at the end of next year at all 5 of the potential big hitters for 2019 so what does it hurt to take your time a bit and sort it out mid season?.

Well like I said I don't believe there is a place for him at either Red Bull or Ferrari, Red Bull who said they are going to build the team around Verstappen whilst Hamilton himself said that Vettel re-signing for Ferrari closes that door for him and makes his contract decision so much easier as in staying with Mercedes, I would say it's guaranteed that he signs a 2 year contact with Mercedes I can't see why he would have a thought in doubting them, also delaying his decision then starts to alienate him within the team.


Teams aren't that sensitive. They dump drivers and staff all the time if they aren't performing as expected, its perfectly normal for a driver to wait until mid season before committing on a new deal in F1.

Why only 2 years?. Lining up with Mercedes contract with Bernie ending or an eye elsewhere?.

I still think it would send out the wrong message in terms of loyalty after the success he's had and especially as he already said he's going to sign a new contract over the winter, like he's lost faith in the team.

Regarding his contract that would be Mercedes' thinking as they have no contract with F1 beyond 2020, they may decide to pull out, who knows?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:32 am 
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Invade wrote:
I think it would be wise for Lewis to keep Merc on their toes - they've done it plenty to Lewis. Merc are fair but also have very high expectations of their drivers. Toto can barely hide his disappointment when Bottas doesn't quite get the position he thought the car was capable of. Toto is reasonable and diplomatic but he's also transparent if you watch closely enough. Lewis should have high expectations of Merc and expect a very good car and he would be wise to wait to see how good that car is and to know the long-term plans and aims going forward from that point.

Well the rumours are that Mercedes are going to further improve his contract, in terms of money he will do no better if not worse?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I think it would be wise for Lewis to keep Merc on their toes - they've done it plenty to Lewis. Merc are fair but also have very high expectations of their drivers. Toto can barely hide his disappointment when Bottas doesn't quite get the position he thought the car was capable of. Toto is reasonable and diplomatic but he's also transparent if you watch closely enough. Lewis should have high expectations of Merc and expect a very good car and he would be wise to wait to see how good that car is and to know the long-term plans and aims going forward from that point.

Well the rumours are that Mercedes are going to further improve his contract, in terms of money he will do no better if not worse?



Sure but I don't see why they still wouldn't further improve his contract if he waits a bit anyway. Besides, Lewis makes a mint - it's more about the titles and race wins now. To me, race wins are like tournament victories and the WDC is the year-end number one (as an aside - in comparison to tennis or golf basically). In other words I don't think WDCs are the be all and end all - that the race wins stat is very significant.


Last edited by Invade on Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:39 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:37 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
He's already said he's going to re-sign over the winter and you have to think that after winning 3 titles in 4 years he has massive faith in the team not to even consider leaving plus were would he go, the doors are closed at both Ferrari and Red Bull.


I think sandman's just urging some caution and to me that makes perfect sense. Who knows what the landscape is going to be team wise and driver wise after 2018 and if Lewis signs a 2-3 year deal before seeing the new concept and competitive order hit the track then its a bit more luck than judgement really if it works out.

There are drivers out of contract at the end of next year at all 5 of the potential big hitters for 2019 so what does it hurt to take your time a bit and sort it out mid season?.

Well like I said I don't believe there is a place for him at either Red Bull or Ferrari, Red Bull who said they are going to build the team around Verstappen whilst Hamilton himself said that Vettel re-signing for Ferrari closes that door for him and makes his contract decision so much easier as in staying with Mercedes, I would say it's guaranteed that he signs a 2 year contact with Mercedes I can't see why he would have a thought in doubting them, also delaying his decision then starts to alienate him within the team.


Teams aren't that sensitive. They dump drivers and staff all the time if they aren't performing as expected, its perfectly normal for a driver to wait until mid season before committing on a new deal in F1.

Why only 2 years?. Lining up with Mercedes contract with Bernie ending or an eye elsewhere?.

I still think it would send out the wrong message in terms of loyalty after the success he's had and especially as he already said he's going to sign a new contract over the winter, like he's lost faith in the team.

Regarding his contract that would be Mercedes' thinking as they have no contract with F1 beyond 2020, they may decide to pull out, who knows?


Hm, I just don't think anyone inside the team would care but maybe he'd get some stick on forums from those that sensitive at a push but who cares?. Its fine if he does either from where I'm standing but I just don't see the harm in having a look but we'll find out soon enough I guess.

I think it'll be a good sign of their intentions if we know Lewis was open to longer, for sure.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:49 am 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I think it would be wise for Lewis to keep Merc on their toes - they've done it plenty to Lewis. Merc are fair but also have very high expectations of their drivers. Toto can barely hide his disappointment when Bottas doesn't quite get the position he thought the car was capable of. Toto is reasonable and diplomatic but he's also transparent if you watch closely enough. Lewis should have high expectations of Merc and expect a very good car and he would be wise to wait to see how good that car is and to know the long-term plans and aims going forward from that point.

Well the rumours are that Mercedes are going to further improve his contract, in terms of money he will do no better if not worse?



Sure but I don't see why they still wouldn't further improve his contract if he waits a bit anyway. Besides, Lewis makes a mint - it's more about the titles and race wins now. To me, race wins are like tournament victories and the WDC is the year-end number one (as an aside - in comparison to tennis or golf basically). In other words I don't think WDCs are the be all and end all - that the race wins stat is very significant.

I disagree the most important is the WDC that's remembered the most, whilst in tennis and golf the 4 majors are the most important nobody remembers who was #1 because they don't have an official World Champion as such, also nobody remembers all their satellite tournament wins which perhaps is more akin to GP wins in number of events?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:51 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
I think sandman's just urging some caution and to me that makes perfect sense. Who knows what the landscape is going to be team wise and driver wise after 2018 and if Lewis signs a 2-3 year deal before seeing the new concept and competitive order hit the track then its a bit more luck than judgement really if it works out.

There are drivers out of contract at the end of next year at all 5 of the potential big hitters for 2019 so what does it hurt to take your time a bit and sort it out mid season?.

Well like I said I don't believe there is a place for him at either Red Bull or Ferrari, Red Bull who said they are going to build the team around Verstappen whilst Hamilton himself said that Vettel re-signing for Ferrari closes that door for him and makes his contract decision so much easier as in staying with Mercedes, I would say it's guaranteed that he signs a 2 year contact with Mercedes I can't see why he would have a thought in doubting them, also delaying his decision then starts to alienate him within the team.


Teams aren't that sensitive. They dump drivers and staff all the time if they aren't performing as expected, its perfectly normal for a driver to wait until mid season before committing on a new deal in F1.

Why only 2 years?. Lining up with Mercedes contract with Bernie ending or an eye elsewhere?.

I still think it would send out the wrong message in terms of loyalty after the success he's had and especially as he already said he's going to sign a new contract over the winter, like he's lost faith in the team.

Regarding his contract that would be Mercedes' thinking as they have no contract with F1 beyond 2020, they may decide to pull out, who knows?


Hm, I just don't think anyone inside the team would care but maybe he'd get some stick on forums from those that sensitive at a push but who cares?. Its fine if he does either from where I'm standing but I just don't see the harm in having a look but we'll find out soon enough I guess.

I think it'll be a good sign of their intentions if we know Lewis was open to longer, for sure.

I ask you this, what other options does Hamilton have?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:55 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I think it would be wise for Lewis to keep Merc on their toes - they've done it plenty to Lewis. Merc are fair but also have very high expectations of their drivers. Toto can barely hide his disappointment when Bottas doesn't quite get the position he thought the car was capable of. Toto is reasonable and diplomatic but he's also transparent if you watch closely enough. Lewis should have high expectations of Merc and expect a very good car and he would be wise to wait to see how good that car is and to know the long-term plans and aims going forward from that point.

Well the rumours are that Mercedes are going to further improve his contract, in terms of money he will do no better if not worse?



Sure but I don't see why they still wouldn't further improve his contract if he waits a bit anyway. Besides, Lewis makes a mint - it's more about the titles and race wins now. To me, race wins are like tournament victories and the WDC is the year-end number one (as an aside - in comparison to tennis or golf basically). In other words I don't think WDCs are the be all and end all - that the race wins stat is very significant.

I disagree the most important is the WDC that's remembered the most, whilst in tennis and golf the 4 majors are the most important nobody remembers who was #1 because they don't have an official World Champion as such, also nobody remembers all their satellite tournament wins which perhaps is more akin to GP wins in number of events?


Well I never said the WDC isn't the most important. I obviously believe it's the most important accolade. Also #1 in golf is perhaps less important (I don't really know) but in tennis it's a huge deal. There's no tournament equivalent in tennis to a GP - Masters would fit best. The only point I'm making is that race wins is a very significant stat. Winning one GP is hard enough alone.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:58 am 
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Ham has no other quality options but waiting to see more clearly the lay of the land could impact the contract duration?


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well like I said I don't believe there is a place for him at either Red Bull or Ferrari, Red Bull who said they are going to build the team around Verstappen whilst Hamilton himself said that Vettel re-signing for Ferrari closes that door for him and makes his contract decision so much easier as in staying with Mercedes, I would say it's guaranteed that he signs a 2 year contact with Mercedes I can't see why he would have a thought in doubting them, also delaying his decision then starts to alienate him within the team.


Teams aren't that sensitive. They dump drivers and staff all the time if they aren't performing as expected, its perfectly normal for a driver to wait until mid season before committing on a new deal in F1.

Why only 2 years?. Lining up with Mercedes contract with Bernie ending or an eye elsewhere?.

I still think it would send out the wrong message in terms of loyalty after the success he's had and especially as he already said he's going to sign a new contract over the winter, like he's lost faith in the team.

Regarding his contract that would be Mercedes' thinking as they have no contract with F1 beyond 2020, they may decide to pull out, who knows?


Hm, I just don't think anyone inside the team would care but maybe he'd get some stick on forums from those that sensitive at a push but who cares?. Its fine if he does either from where I'm standing but I just don't see the harm in having a look but we'll find out soon enough I guess.

I think it'll be a good sign of their intentions if we know Lewis was open to longer, for sure.

I ask you this, what other options does Hamilton have?


I assume you mean team wise but its not something I can answer as there's too many variables driver wise that we wont know until the summer but there are 5 well funded teams and they'll all have engines within a couple of percent next year and getting closer all the time so the landscape could be very different next summer.

Who knows, maybe Enstone will be the place to be in 2019. Point is there's no real need to cement now.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:06 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:

I assume you mean team wise but its not something I can answer as there's too many variables driver wise that we wont know until the summer but there are 5 well funded teams and they'll all have engines within a couple of percent next year and getting closer all the time so the landscape could be very different next summer.

Who knows, maybe Enstone will be the place to be in 2019. Point is there's no real need to cement now.


On the topic of Renault, do you think they'll be the best team at some point over a full season over the next 5 years?

My money is on them winning Championships a few years down the road.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 3:17 am 
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Invade wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

I assume you mean team wise but its not something I can answer as there's too many variables driver wise that we wont know until the summer but there are 5 well funded teams and they'll all have engines within a couple of percent next year and getting closer all the time so the landscape could be very different next summer.

Who knows, maybe Enstone will be the place to be in 2019. Point is there's no real need to cement now.


On the topic of Renault, do you think they'll be the best team at some point over a full season over the next 5 years?

My money is on them winning Championships a few years down the road.


2020/21 I think they'll fight for it anyway yeah. They're pouring a shed ton of money into Viry and are recruiting like mad. It's the same we saw in 2010/11 from Mercedes.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 8:26 am 
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Invade wrote:
James Allison talked quite a bit about teams honing their weapons for next year. In the terms he talks I don't expect a complete overhaul but maybe half measures which narrow the concept gap between themselves and Red Bull (as the furthest other extreme out of the three top teams). I get the impression Mercedes will still look to find their own unique balance rather than suddenly increasing the rake to 2.0 ish and having a much shorter wheelbase and whatnot. The problem for Mercedes is that even at the beginning of the year their car looked convoluted - it looked developed. The Red Bull looked clean and unaffected and they had the time to develop their car slowly and understand the regulations extremely thoroughly while being able to apply ideas to a blank canvas.

I feel the Mercedes car itself is a bit underrated and that they can afford to build on their concept still but that it might have a lower ceiling and lead them into problems especially for 2019-2020. Perhaps it's better to be more radical, potentially lose out in 2018 and be able to bounce back strong in the following years. I don't really know, but the tone in which James Allison has talked recently suggests Mercedes are hardly unconfident of the work being done for their 2018 "weapon".


I agree with this, I also wouldn't be surprised if they kept the low rake concept. If they can find some new suspension trickery (or something which mimics it), and apply that instead of changing their entire philosophy..


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 2:26 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.


In Merc's defense, their concept probably worked fine with their trick suspension.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:45 pm 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
I think it would be wise for Lewis to keep Merc on their toes - they've done it plenty to Lewis. Merc are fair but also have very high expectations of their drivers. Toto can barely hide his disappointment when Bottas doesn't quite get the position he thought the car was capable of. Toto is reasonable and diplomatic but he's also transparent if you watch closely enough. Lewis should have high expectations of Merc and expect a very good car and he would be wise to wait to see how good that car is and to know the long-term plans and aims going forward from that point.

Well the rumours are that Mercedes are going to further improve his contract, in terms of money he will do no better if not worse?



Sure but I don't see why they still wouldn't further improve his contract if he waits a bit anyway. Besides, Lewis makes a mint - it's more about the titles and race wins now. To me, race wins are like tournament victories and the WDC is the year-end number one (as an aside - in comparison to tennis or golf basically). In other words I don't think WDCs are the be all and end all - that the race wins stat is very significant.

I disagree the most important is the WDC that's remembered the most, whilst in tennis and golf the 4 majors are the most important nobody remembers who was #1 because they don't have an official World Champion as such, also nobody remembers all their satellite tournament wins which perhaps is more akin to GP wins in number of events?


Well I never said the WDC isn't the most important. I obviously believe it's the most important accolade. Also #1 in golf is perhaps less important (I don't really know) but in tennis it's a huge deal. There's no tournament equivalent in tennis to a GP - Masters would fit best. The only point I'm making is that race wins is a very significant stat. Winning one GP is hard enough alone.

Well in F1 it's clearly WDC's > Wins > Poles.

In Golf it's the amount of majors you win, there is 4 every year, Tennis how many grand slam tournaments you win, again there are 4 every year.

Being ranked #1 is important in both golf and tennis but it's measured in weeks rather than years so they don't actual have a world champion for any given year, you can be #1 for most of the year and then near the end someone else might be #1, but then again it's the majors and grand slams that are remembered and not how many weeks you happened to reside as #1 player.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 5:49 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Ham has no other quality options but waiting to see more clearly the lay of the land could impact the contract duration?

I can't see waiting 6 months makes a difference on the length of contract which I believe will end in 2020 because for the reason I already gave, the end of the present Concorde agreement.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:13 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Teams aren't that sensitive. They dump drivers and staff all the time if they aren't performing as expected, its perfectly normal for a driver to wait until mid season before committing on a new deal in F1.

Why only 2 years?. Lining up with Mercedes contract with Bernie ending or an eye elsewhere?.

I still think it would send out the wrong message in terms of loyalty after the success he's had and especially as he already said he's going to sign a new contract over the winter, like he's lost faith in the team.

Regarding his contract that would be Mercedes' thinking as they have no contract with F1 beyond 2020, they may decide to pull out, who knows?


Hm, I just don't think anyone inside the team would care but maybe he'd get some stick on forums from those that sensitive at a push but who cares?. Its fine if he does either from where I'm standing but I just don't see the harm in having a look but we'll find out soon enough I guess.

I think it'll be a good sign of their intentions if we know Lewis was open to longer, for sure.

I ask you this, what other options does Hamilton have?


I assume you mean team wise but its not something I can answer as there's too many variables driver wise that we wont know until the summer but there are 5 well funded teams and they'll all have engines within a couple of percent next year and getting closer all the time so the landscape could be very different next summer.

Who knows, maybe Enstone will be the place to be in 2019. Point is there's no real need to cement now.

I believe the only other team that would interest him would be Ferrari and he's already said that door was closed to him with Vettel's 3 year contract.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 08, 2017 6:15 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has Mercedes going for a new design been confirmed?.

There was good reasons they went with this one, they lost too many points of d/f with their simulated swb design last winter, and outside the 3 highest d/f tracks they've been competitive at the other 17 (Assuming they don't have a nightmare at Brazil or AD) so it seems a bit risky to me.

The real risk would be not to re-design the car. The writing is on the wall with this long wheelbase car already and they have less scope for development with it than the other top teams do with their short wheelbase cars. In other words, Mercedes have a more developed concept but it is a fundamentally inferior concept. As they move forward through time with this current concept, they will do nothing but continuously lose ground.


Did Mercedes say they have less scope for development with the current concept or is it just the opinion going around the journos etc.?.

Not that the opinion is wrong but just wondering as I haven't seen much concept talk.

The decreased scope for development comes largely from the way that they took their class-leading concepts from the 2014-2016 period and brought many of them forward to this year. In contrast, Red Bull and Ferrari started with much more of a blank slate and designed their car around maximizing these regulations. Their cars looked cleaner and simpler in Australia by comparison to the Mercedes (which appeared more like a car you would see at the end of the year with all the winglets and aero bits). The amount of rake that Ferrari and Red Bull are running and the more narrow wheelbases and sleeker sidepods are clearly making their cars more nimble. It's just the right direction to go for these regs (especially with the crackdown on the fancy suspensions).

Mercedes will have their work cut out for them though. I feel Red Bull and McLaren are massive threats. Ferrari should also be significantly improved and Mercedes may get it all wrong. Honestly, if I were in Hamilton's shoes, I would not re-sign until I'd seen how the cars shape up next year. That's how volatile I believe the current pecking order is going into next year.


In Merc's defense, their concept probably worked fine with their trick suspension.

Yep Ferrari did well to get it banned.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Invade wrote:
Well I never said the WDC isn't the most important. I obviously believe it's the most important accolade. Also #1 in golf is perhaps less important (I don't really know) but in tennis it's a huge deal. There's no tournament equivalent in tennis to a GP - Masters would fit best. The only point I'm making is that race wins is a very significant stat. Winning one GP is hard enough alone.

Well in F1 it's clearly WDC's > Wins > Poles.

I'd put podiums ahead of poles. Podiums are actually worth something

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 09, 2017 9:39 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
pokerman wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
That's exactly what I thought when he said that. Which is why I'm eager to see how it pans out in 2018. If they miss the mark, Ferrari would easily win the title. I don't foresee Red Bull challenging them with the anchor they have for an engine.

I think clearly the Mercedes was starting to tread water, how often was it second/third fastest car in the second half of the season, none of the updates seem to bring a big increase in performance like we saw with Ferrari and even more so with Red Bull, I think the writing was going to be on the wall if they had continued with their concept?


You'd expect next year's Ferrari to be at least 0.5 secs faster than this year. I think Mercedes didn't think it was possible to eke out his much performance from their car's low rake, long wheelbase philosophy.

If Ferrari fails to win next year, I'd say they should just pack up the team and go home.

What if it's Red Bull they lose out to?

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