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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 9:20 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
I personally can't think of anything worst and wouldn't be surprised if it killed F1. For me formula 1 IS aerodynamics, every now and then they changed a team name, or drivers come and go they might even change engine regulations which is exciting for a bit... But the premise of modern Formula 1 is "make us a car as fast as possible, but you cannot do the following things" and it's up to the teams to engineer a solution to that problem. The fastest way around a circuit is to maximise your cars acceleration in all axes. Without aero you can't do that

:thumbup:

For the sizable minority of us who derive a large part of our pleasure of F1 from the fact that it is an engineering competition, that would be a disastrous change. And really, since F1 has never had the best racing in any objective way, it would be the end of Formula One's identity.

I've been saying for years we should have a Formula Classic series that will satisfy people who want that sort of thing, and leave F1 to be what it really is.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 10:36 am 
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Blackhander wrote:
But the premise of modern Formula 1 is "make us a car as fast as possible, but you cannot do the following things"


So I'm saying, make us a car as fast as possible, but you cannot put wings on it.


Blackhander wrote:
Without aero you can't do that


Aero doesn't go away because you don't have wings. The whole car has to be aerodynamic, even now. The sidepods, the engine cover, the nose, the floor. I just want to remove the parts that;

1. Create so much downforce that breaking distances are tiny, hindering overtaking.
2. Create so much turbulent air that close racing is minimal.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 11:51 am 
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Exediron wrote:
:thumbup:

For the sizable minority of us who derive a large part of our pleasure of F1 from the fact that it is an engineering competition, that would be a disastrous change. And really, since F1 has never had the best racing in any objective way, it would be the end of Formula One's identity.

I've been saying for years we should have a Formula Classic series that will satisfy people who want that sort of thing, and leave F1 to be what it really is.


I like the cars to be at the cutting edge of technology, I disagree with those who say we should return to steel brakes for example. People asking for cars with no downforce are delusional, with the everlasting ban on ground effect no reputable engineer willing to build a portfolio for themselves would choose to work at an F1 team.

But F1 is also a show, it's not called a "circus" for nothing. If technology gets in the way of entertainment, entertainment wins, always.

Formula Classic wouldn't work because it would be a cookie-cutter series where drivers wouldn't push for fear of crashing vintage cars and/or killing themselves in them (as cars prior to 1995 were hardly what you could call "safe").

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 12:52 pm 
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Pole2Win wrote:
Exediron wrote:
:thumbup:

For the sizable minority of us who derive a large part of our pleasure of F1 from the fact that it is an engineering competition, that would be a disastrous change. And really, since F1 has never had the best racing in any objective way, it would be the end of Formula One's identity.

I've been saying for years we should have a Formula Classic series that will satisfy people who want that sort of thing, and leave F1 to be what it really is.


I like the cars to be at the cutting edge of technology, I disagree with those who say we should return to steel brakes for example. People asking for cars with no downforce are delusional, with the everlasting ban on ground effect no reputable engineer willing to build a portfolio for themselves would choose to work at an F1 team.

But F1 is also a show, it's not called a "circus" for nothing. If technology gets in the way of entertainment, entertainment wins, always.

Formula Classic wouldn't work because it would be a cookie-cutter series where drivers wouldn't push for fear of crashing vintage cars and/or killing themselves in them (as cars prior to 1995 were hardly what you could call "safe").

tbh, I don't think the majority of fans really care what's behind the scenes, within reason. Ultimately, they want the fastest single seater race cars in the world that look like mere mortals wouldn't be able to drive them: the rest is pretty incidental.

Clearly, there's a balance to be had. But I doubt many fans would turn off if they went back to manual gears, for example, although I suspect it would add to the racing. I think few would object if the drivers didn't have 20 buttons on the steering wheel adjusting every parameter possible mid-race. And I honestly believe that if they did revert to steel brakes it wouldn't result in many getting disenchanted with the sport and switching off. Ultimately, if it led to better racing, and fewer gimmicks, while putting the spotlight on driver skill, most would be pleased.

I'd bet my house, if my better half would let me, on the fact that if they substituted the expensive hybrids with e.g. twin turbos, or anything else that was cheaper, as long as they still propelled the cars at breakneck speeds and lap times still came down, there wouldn't be much in the way of objections.

None of the above means that I'm advocating we send everyone round in Ford Model Ts: I'm not a luddite. But I think the tech aspect of the sport tends to get overblown and I strongly suspect that as long as they look and feel cutting edge that would satisfy most. Of course, some may be upset, but there again some are upset at what we have now so we'll never please everyone

edit: I also think none of the above will happen, but that's more to do with manufacturer pressure than what would be best for the sport itself


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 22, 2017 2:12 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
tbh, I don't think the majority of fans really care what's behind the scenes, within reason. Ultimately, they want the fastest single seater race cars in the world that look like mere mortals wouldn't be able to drive them: the rest is pretty incidental.

Clearly, there's a balance to be had. But I doubt many fans would turn off if they went back to manual gears, for example, although I suspect it would add to the racing. I think few would object if the drivers didn't have 20 buttons on the steering wheel adjusting every parameter possible mid-race. And I honestly believe that if they did revert to steel brakes it wouldn't result in many getting disenchanted with the sport and switching off. Ultimately, if it led to better racing, and fewer gimmicks, while putting the spotlight on driver skill, most would be pleased.

I'd bet my house, if my better half would let me, on the fact that if they substituted the expensive hybrids with e.g. twin turbos, or anything else that was cheaper, as long as they still propelled the cars at breakneck speeds and lap times still came down, there wouldn't be much in the way of objections.

None of the above means that I'm advocating we send everyone round in Ford Model Ts: I'm not a luddite. But I think the tech aspect of the sport tends to get overblown and I strongly suspect that as long as they look and feel cutting edge that would satisfy most. Of course, some may be upset, but there again some are upset at what we have now so we'll never please everyone

edit: I also think none of the above will happen, but that's more to do with manufacturer pressure than what would be best for the sport itself


Actually, proving your point, the rise in prominence of the CART series in the mid nineties was directly related to the quality of racing compared to F1. CART had never been very technologically advanced, the cars they used in the 90s were heavier than F1 cars and were equipped with turbo V8s exceeding F1's output. IIRC the cars used manual H-shifters as well. Meanwhile F1 was mourning Senna's death and the 1994 season ended in travesty. People also complained about Williams' dominance in similar fashion to how people complain about Mercedes' dominance today. On the other hand, I don't remember reading complaints that the cars were too dependant on electronics after the active suspension was banned.

The thing is that F1 has always been where the major technological developments were made. The foundations of F1 are that each team builds their own chassis. This way each team seeks the biggest advantage possible, unlike in CART which had standard customer chassis and equipment across the field and, even in CART (and later in the IRL and in the reborn IndyCar series) one of the chassis/engines would prove to be the fastest (IIRC it was Reynard in the golden 90s) and most teams would contract with that constructor, creating an artificial concept of balance when balance is different from standardization. Balance assumes two or more elements, standardization only one.

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