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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:34 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
motorfinger wrote:
There wasn't such a thing as Massas side of the garage sadly, at least not in a equal capacity to the other side. And i am not interested to go into x number of reinterpretations of the state of affairs, I am not even a Massa fan.


I think it is impossible to have a sensible discussion on the matter..
The "side of the garage" thing exists only in Ferrari where "creative"/ballsy strategies are allowed but ONLY if it benefits who they have appointed as their #1 driver.

It is such a great luxury when you can run your own strategy without worrying about your #2 teammate behind you.. Meanwhile Hamilton was fighting off Button and Webber was doing his best to make Vettel's life difficult.

It is impossible to have a sensible discussion on the matter because you ignore some people's responses to you


If they are made up or are not considering context (history, location, boss, commercial aspects), it is normal for me to disagree..

1. I as a Hamilton fan don't see Lewis as perfect but with several flaws unlike some here with their star driver.

2. It is impossible to talk about sensitive things(stuff not printed in the press) without receiving a ban. Just wait a few years and there is the probability you will reconsider your position. So we for the moment, will agree to disagree :thumbup:


Last edited by Pullrod on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:00 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 12:46 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
There are many measures to compare drivers. The official WDC system, as Zoue points, out scored Hamilton higher due to his extra 2nd place.
Each scored 4 wins, 12 podiums, 14 top six places; Alonso 4 fastest laps to Ham's 2; Ham 5 poles to Alonso's 2. On my System which measures on-track time differentials, Ham was faster in qualifying by just 0.02% (season-average) , but in the races their season-average times worked out equal.

Imo Alonso dropped off after the Italian GP, the in-house negativity must have been affecting him; whereas Hamilton had the support of the team/Ron D. This internal war must have cost McLaren-Mercedes an extra win or two towards season's end?

One of THE great seasons for fans with four drivers and two teams so close-matched and fighting for the wins: 9 to Ferrari and 8 to McLaren-Mercedes. :thumbup:


How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?

Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:12 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
But all that, while I agree fully, is beside the point I made, mds. It was Hamilton himself who said he beat Alonso. That says a lot about Hamilton, it would be interesting what sports psychologists make of that.


That from time to time he states a well-accepted fact? :D

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?
Quite easily. Had Lewis not had the disastrous last two races he would have outscored Alonso. Context

Pullrod wrote:
Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.
I've been critical of Alonso in 2007 but in all honesty I find it incredible that anyone would call it strange that McLaren would have been considered a hostile environment for him. It's not like their bust-up was in any way a secret, or even low key! It's a small miracle they managed to get through the season without coming to blows. It has to have been the most toxic environment in living memory


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:41 pm 
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Fiki wrote:
mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
Prost said it himself, at the time of the Belgian GP: "Il est trop fort!" Senna beat Prost in 1988. You race according to the points system in place and that meant dropping results in 1988, but not in 2007.


Well, the sporting regulations do not mention the terms "scoring system", "points system" or "classification system".
The sporting regulations in 1988 mentioned the number of points for each place, and the number of races to be dropped, (and probably the rules for tie breakers) in order to arrive at an official classification.
Likewise the sporting regulations in 2007 mentioned the number of points for each place, and the rules for tie breakers, in order to arrive at an official classification.

Quote:
In 2007, Hamilton "beat" Alonso by exactly zero points. In other words, he destroyed him! :lol:


Fiki, it is not like you to get tangled up in straw man fallacies. Nobody here said Hamilton destroyed Alonso, only that Hamilton beat him. Nobody said he outscored him. He beat him not on points, but by virtue of countback of second places. This was, and is, an integral part of the classification system, detailed in the sporting regulations.

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What I find laughable, ridiculous even, is that a driver would come out saying he beat another one, when he only scored as many points. Where's the sportsmanship in that?


Prost even scored MORE points. But the system was such that it didn't count to be able to say he beat Senna - the contrary was true.
Alonso scored equal points. But the system was such that it didn't count to be able to say he beat Hamilon - the contrary was true.

Hamilton only scored as many points, but found himself on the second step of the podium once more than Alonso. And that is better.
But all that, while I agree fully, is beside the point I made, mds. It was Hamilton himself who said he beat Alonso. That says a lot about Hamilton, it would be interesting what sports psychologists make of that.

He beat him on the classification that defines who is World Champion and all the other places thereafter, Rosberg beat Hamilton last year despite Hamilton winning more races that's how it goes and there's no need to be dissecting Hamilton's mental health. :lol:

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:44 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
There are many measures to compare drivers. The official WDC system, as Zoue points, out scored Hamilton higher due to his extra 2nd place.
Each scored 4 wins, 12 podiums, 14 top six places; Alonso 4 fastest laps to Ham's 2; Ham 5 poles to Alonso's 2. On my System which measures on-track time differentials, Ham was faster in qualifying by just 0.02% (season-average) , but in the races their season-average times worked out equal.

Imo Alonso dropped off after the Italian GP, the in-house negativity must have been affecting him; whereas Hamilton had the support of the team/Ron D. This internal war must have cost McLaren-Mercedes an extra win or two towards season's end?

One of THE great seasons for fans with four drivers and two teams so close-matched and fighting for the wins: 9 to Ferrari and 8 to McLaren-Mercedes. :thumbup:


How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?

Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.

I think he is analysing Alonso's actual standard of performance rather than points scored, let's not forget that Hamilton basically retired from the last 2 races.

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Last edited by pokerman on Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 1:45 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Surely you jest. So if Fernando was the one who went to Toyota, Trulli beats Fernando in those 3 races too? That's like saying Rosberg beat Verstappen in 2016 over the season.

Yes. As far as I know Rosberg won the WDC and Verstappen was never his team-mate

But neither were Trulli and Alonso team-mates for the last 3 races, but you're including those races in.

It isn't a teammate comparison when you include races where they weren't teammates!

While they were teammates in 2004 over 15 races, Trulli beat Alonso.

This is as irrelevant as Wurz beating Kimi in 2005 all the things considered.

Wurz beat Kimi in 1 race as teammates. Trulli beat Alonso over 15 races as teammates. That rather makes the victory over your teammate more legitimate.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Absolutely agree with Pullrod. We should not be selective and look only at the races they were teammates - but at all races they were teammates. Then, Alonso beats Trulli over the course of all races they were teammates. All else is indeed selective.

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003, Trulli beat Alonso in 2004.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:20 pm 
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myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Surely you jest. So if Fernando was the one who went to Toyota, Trulli beats Fernando in those 3 races too? That's like saying Rosberg beat Verstappen in 2016 over the season.

Yes. As far as I know Rosberg won the WDC and Verstappen was never his team-mate

But neither were Trulli and Alonso team-mates for the last 3 races, but you're including those races in.

It isn't a teammate comparison when you include races where they weren't teammates!

While they were teammates in 2004 over 15 races, Trulli beat Alonso.

This is as irrelevant as Wurz beating Kimi in 2005 all the things considered.

Wurz beat Kimi in 1 race as teammates. Trulli beat Alonso over 15 races as teammates. That rather makes the victory over your teammate more legitimate.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Absolutely agree with Pullrod. We should not be selective and look only at the races they were teammates - but at all races they were teammates. Then, Alonso beats Trulli over the course of all races they were teammates. All else is indeed selective.

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003, Trulli beat Alonso in 2004.

Let's recap everything:

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003 standings by a BIG margin
Alonso beat Trulli in 2004 standings by some margin
Alonso beat Trulli in 2003-2004 standings together, by decent margin

However the important bit for some is:
Trulli beat Alonso in 15 races of the 2004 season (by only 1 point)

Its ridiculous to be so selective, you guys all know it.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:23 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?
Quite easily. Had Lewis not had the disastrous last two races he would have outscored Alonso. Context

Pullrod wrote:
Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.
I've been critical of Alonso in 2007 but in all honesty I find it incredible that anyone would call it strange that McLaren would have been considered a hostile environment for him. It's not like their bust-up was in any way a secret, or even low key! It's a small miracle they managed to get through the season without coming to blows. It has to have been the most toxic environment in living memory


:thumbup: Ron Dennis even said more than once, publicly,'We are fighting Alonso, not Ferrari' or words to that effect, which was incredible. As you say, it was amazing that McLaren even managed to prepare two good cars.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:26 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Let's recap everything:

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003 standings by a BIG margin (1)
Alonso beat Trulli in 2004 standings by some margin (2)
Alonso beat Trulli in 2003-2004 standings together, by decent margin (3)

However the important bit for some is:
Trulli beat Alonso in 15 races of the 2004 season (by only 1 point)

Its ridiculous to be so selective, you guys all know it.


1) Yes
2) Not while they were driving the same car he didn't.
3) Yes

That's the facts.

Trulli was approaching his peak in 2004 and hit his peak in 2005, it's of no discredit to Alonso to have been outscored that season. Alonso was still the better race driver overall but Trulli's step up in performance especially in qualy for track position during the race was allowing him to outscore Flavio's client. And he did it despite being ostracised by Flavio for the last 5 races and not scoring a single point. Credit where it's due, that was quite impressive from Jarno.


Last edited by myattitude on Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:31 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Yes. As far as I know Rosberg won the WDC and Verstappen was never his team-mate

But neither were Trulli and Alonso team-mates for the last 3 races, but you're including those races in.

It isn't a teammate comparison when you include races where they weren't teammates!

While they were teammates in 2004 over 15 races, Trulli beat Alonso.

This is as irrelevant as Wurz beating Kimi in 2005 all the things considered.

Wurz beat Kimi in 1 race as teammates. Trulli beat Alonso over 15 races as teammates. That rather makes the victory over your teammate more legitimate.

Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Absolutely agree with Pullrod. We should not be selective and look only at the races they were teammates - but at all races they were teammates. Then, Alonso beats Trulli over the course of all races they were teammates. All else is indeed selective.

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003, Trulli beat Alonso in 2004.

Let's recap everything:

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003 standings by a BIG margin
Alonso beat Trulli in 2004 standings by some margin
Alonso beat Trulli in 2003-2004 standings together, by decent margin

However the important bit for some is:
Trulli beat Alonso in 15 races of the 2004 season (by only 1 point)

Its ridiculous to be so selective, you guys all know it.

Nobody's being selective apart from you, I'm afraid. I suspect most, if not all, will happily admit that Alonso is the superior driver of the two. I'd also wager that most will cheerfully state that in their entire time together Alonso came out on top. But when it comes down to team mate battles in 2004, Trulli pipped Alonso, so Alonso can't say he's never been beaten by a team mate. I don't see why this is such a contentious issue. The facts speak for themselves and according to the facts Trulli came out on top in that particular team mate battle.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:32 pm 
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nixxxon wrote:
Let's recap everything:

Alonso beat Trulli in 2003 standings by a BIG margin
Alonso beat Trulli in 2004 standings by some margin
Alonso beat Trulli in 2003-2004 standings together, by decent margin

However the important bit for some is:
Trulli beat Alonso in 15 races of the 2004 season (by only 1 point)

Its ridiculous to be so selective, you guys all know it.


Oh come on. The criterion has been simple from the beginning, did Alonso beat his teammate every year or not?
Your remark about 2003 is correct, but irrelevant: we're talking seasons apart, not the entire period of them being teammates, and the point is 2004.
Your remark about 2004 is correct, but irrelevant: we're talking about "beating his teammate" - Trulli was not Alonso's teammate for the final races.
Your remark about 2003-2004 is correct, but irrelevant: we're talking seasons apart, not the entire period of them being teammates, and the point is 2004.

If you want to push it, then the question "did Alonso beat his teammate in 2004?" is most correctly answered by: he had two teammates that year. He was beaten by the first, and he beat the second.

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Last edited by mds on Tue Feb 07, 2017 10:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 2:47 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?
Quite easily. Had Lewis not had the disastrous last two races he would have outscored Alonso. Context

Pullrod wrote:
Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.
I've been critical of Alonso in 2007 but in all honesty I find it incredible that anyone would call it strange that McLaren would have been considered a hostile environment for him. It's not like their bust-up was in any way a secret, or even low key! It's a small miracle they managed to get through the season without coming to blows. It has to have been the most toxic environment in living memory


:thumbup: Ron Dennis even said more than once, publicly,'We are fighting Alonso, not Ferrari' or words to that effect, which was incredible. As you say, it was amazing that McLaren even managed to prepare two good cars.


Exactly.. McLaren has been a fair team to both the drivers and do we have to believe a 2xWDC needed the same emotional support provided(by only Ron Dennis) to a rookie?

If you think Alonso could not compete at his max because of McLaren then try to imagine the same situation in Ferrari.. He would fail to even score a podium I promise..

["We are racing Fernando" from Dennis was relative to the Race Hamilton was doing. Don't drivers ask who they are racing?
Anyway it was in China 2007, the penultimate race of the season.]


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:31 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?
Quite easily. Had Lewis not had the disastrous last two races he would have outscored Alonso. Context

Pullrod wrote:
Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.
I've been critical of Alonso in 2007 but in all honesty I find it incredible that anyone would call it strange that McLaren would have been considered a hostile environment for him. It's not like their bust-up was in any way a secret, or even low key! It's a small miracle they managed to get through the season without coming to blows. It has to have been the most toxic environment in living memory


:thumbup: Ron Dennis even said more than once, publicly,'We are fighting Alonso, not Ferrari' or words to that effect, which was incredible. As you say, it was amazing that McLaren even managed to prepare two good cars.


Exactly.. McLaren has been a fair team to both the drivers and do we have to believe a 2xWDC needed the same emotional support provided(by only Ron Dennis) to a rookie?

If you think Alonso could not compete at his max because of McLaren then try to imagine the same situation in Ferrari.. He would fail to even score a podium I promise..

["We are racing Fernando" from Dennis was relative to the Race Hamilton was doing. Don't drivers ask who they are racing?
Anyway it was in China 2007, the penultimate race of the season.]

I think there's a world of difference between "the same emotional support as a rookie" and the the positively hostile environment Alonso found himself in in the latter half of 2007.

Leaving aside the fact that he at least contributed to it himself, the level of public animosity there was bound to have some kind of impact: the man's not a robot. You constantly hear of drivers getting psychology coaching, or playing mind games, so it's pretty clear that approaching the race(s) in the correct frame of mind is quite important. Being in a hostile environment must have influenced Alonso to some degree.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 3:32 pm 
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Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:12 pm 
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myattitude wrote:
Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.

I remember being livid when Ron said that on TV

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:47 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
How can a driver score more points than his teammate despite dropping off ?
Quite easily. Had Lewis not had the disastrous last two races he would have outscored Alonso. Context

Pullrod wrote:
Alonso may have had problems/disagreements with Ron Dennis but there were many many engineers on his side because if engineers want to screw you up, they will do it.
I find it sometimes strange that people talk about McLaren as a hostile environment for Alonso. If you run polls on English forums, Hamilton is no more popular than Alonso; but try to run the same poll in a Spanish forum.
I've been critical of Alonso in 2007 but in all honesty I find it incredible that anyone would call it strange that McLaren would have been considered a hostile environment for him. It's not like their bust-up was in any way a secret, or even low key! It's a small miracle they managed to get through the season without coming to blows. It has to have been the most toxic environment in living memory


:thumbup: Ron Dennis even said more than once, publicly,'We are fighting Alonso, not Ferrari' or words to that effect, which was incredible. As you say, it was amazing that McLaren even managed to prepare two good cars.


Exactly.. McLaren has been a fair team to both the drivers and do we have to believe a 2xWDC needed the same emotional support provided(by only Ron Dennis) to a rookie?

If you think Alonso could not compete at his max because of McLaren then try to imagine the same situation in Ferrari.. He would fail to even score a podium I promise..

["We are racing Fernando" from Dennis was relative to the Race Hamilton was doing. Don't drivers ask who they are racing?
Anyway it was in China 2007, the penultimate race of the season.]

I think there's a world of difference between "the same emotional support as a rookie" and the the positively hostile environment Alonso found himself in in the latter half of 2007.

Leaving aside the fact that he at least contributed to it himself, the level of public animosity there was bound to have some kind of impact: the man's not a robot. You constantly hear of drivers getting psychology coaching, or playing mind games, so it's pretty clear that approaching the race(s) in the correct frame of mind is quite important. Being in a hostile environment must have influenced Alonso to some degree.


I would agree. But who's to say the same toxic, pressure cooker environment didn't influence Hamilton? He's human too. There is the possibility that the negativity within the environment affected him too. Finding yourself embroiled in controversy and pressure in your maiden season couldn't have been easy.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 4:59 pm 
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mcdo wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.

I remember being livid when Ron said that on TV

I can't find a video but he was basically saying the pit board (Ron & co) left Lewis out despite Kimi passing him because the race wasn't with Kimi (fuel loads), it was with Fernando. "We" was just a word for the pit board who were making the decisions. I'm sure it could have been used in the other direction too.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 5:48 pm 
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SR1 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
:thumbup: Ron Dennis even said more than once, publicly,'We are fighting Alonso, not Ferrari' or words to that effect, which was incredible. As you say, it was amazing that McLaren even managed to prepare two good cars.


Exactly.. McLaren has been a fair team to both the drivers and do we have to believe a 2xWDC needed the same emotional support provided(by only Ron Dennis) to a rookie?

If you think Alonso could not compete at his max because of McLaren then try to imagine the same situation in Ferrari.. He would fail to even score a podium I promise..

["We are racing Fernando" from Dennis was relative to the Race Hamilton was doing. Don't drivers ask who they are racing?
Anyway it was in China 2007, the penultimate race of the season.]

I think there's a world of difference between "the same emotional support as a rookie" and the the positively hostile environment Alonso found himself in in the latter half of 2007.

Leaving aside the fact that he at least contributed to it himself, the level of public animosity there was bound to have some kind of impact: the man's not a robot. You constantly hear of drivers getting psychology coaching, or playing mind games, so it's pretty clear that approaching the race(s) in the correct frame of mind is quite important. Being in a hostile environment must have influenced Alonso to some degree.


I would agree. But who's to say the same toxic, pressure cooker environment didn't influence Hamilton? He's human too. There is the possibility that the negativity within the environment affected him too. Finding yourself embroiled in controversy and pressure in your maiden season couldn't have been easy.

I don't think it's comparable, tbh. It was very much Alonso vs McLaren after Hungary. Allegations were flying about all over the place.

As I said before, much of it was brought on Alonso himself, so I'm not especially sympathetic. But it must have been a very uncomfortable environment and I can't imagine it didn't have some impact on Alonso's mental state and ultimate performance


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:26 pm 
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Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 7:38 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:15 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


The amazing thing is that nobody seems to get Rosberg real intentions here..
He has effectively become Hamilton #1 fan because the more Hamilton shines, the better his WDC campaign will look.

Rosberg has zero interest to see Hamilton beaten and if he wanted Alonso in Mercedes, it would not be (only) for the fireworks but to make people realize(his wish) how strong and underrated he really was. Whenever he talks about Hamilton he says one of the greats of all time.


Last edited by Pullrod on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:18 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


The amazing thing is that nobody seems to get Rosberg real intentions here..
He has effectively become Hamilton #1 fan because the more Hamilton shines, the better his WDC campaign will look.

Rosberg has zero interest to see Hamilton beaten and if he wanted Alonso in Mercedes, it would not be (only) for the fireworks but to make people realize(his wish) how strong and underrated he really was.

or, he's telling it like it is and as a fan would like to see Hamilton and Alonso go toe to toe again. Like he said, there would be fireworks. And again like he said, it's what many, many fans would want.

There doesn't always have to be a hidden meaning behind everything


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:22 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


The amazing thing is that nobody seems to get Rosberg real intentions here..
He has effectively become Hamilton #1 fan because the more Hamilton shines, the better his WDC campaign will look.

Rosberg has zero interest to see Hamilton beaten and if he wanted Alonso in Mercedes, it would not be (only) for the fireworks but to make people realize(his wish) how strong and underrated he really was.

or, he's telling it like it is and as a fan would like to see Hamilton and Alonso go toe to toe again. Like he said, there would be fireworks. And again like he said, it's what many, many fans would want.

There doesn't always have to be a hidden meaning behind everything


Hidden meaning? It is clear if you add the dots.
Lewis has always been the benchmark for him. He has said it 250 times. If he cared about the fans(your theory) he would have not retired. He is in for HIMSELF.


Last edited by Pullrod on Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:34 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


The amazing thing is that nobody seems to get Rosberg real intentions here..
He has effectively become Hamilton #1 fan because the more Hamilton shines, the better his WDC campaign will look.

Rosberg has zero interest to see Hamilton beaten and if he wanted Alonso in Mercedes, it would not be (only) for the fireworks but to make people realize(his wish) how strong and underrated he really was.

or, he's telling it like it is and as a fan would like to see Hamilton and Alonso go toe to toe again. Like he said, there would be fireworks. And again like he said, it's what many, many fans would want.

There doesn't always have to be a hidden meaning behind everything


Hidden meaning? It is clear if you add the dots.
Lewis has always been the benchmark for him. He has said it 250 times. If he cared about the fans(your theory) he would have not retired. He is in for HIMSELF.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Aside from anything else I didn't say he cared about the fans, I said (he was speaking) as a fan. There's a world of difference.

Lewis may well be his benchmark. But that doesn't have to change what he said. It works perfectly well if you take it at face value.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:38 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The amazing thing is that nobody seems to get Rosberg real intentions here..
He has effectively become Hamilton #1 fan because the more Hamilton shines, the better his WDC campaign will look.

Rosberg has zero interest to see Hamilton beaten and if he wanted Alonso in Mercedes, it would not be (only) for the fireworks but to make people realize(his wish) how strong and underrated he really was.

or, he's telling it like it is and as a fan would like to see Hamilton and Alonso go toe to toe again. Like he said, there would be fireworks. And again like he said, it's what many, many fans would want.

There doesn't always have to be a hidden meaning behind everything


Hidden meaning? It is clear if you add the dots.
Lewis has always been the benchmark for him. He has said it 250 times. If he cared about the fans(your theory) he would have not retired. He is in for HIMSELF.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Aside from anything else I didn't say he cared about the fans, I said (he was speaking) as a fan. There's a world of difference.

Lewis may well be his benchmark. But that doesn't have to change what he said. It works perfectly well if you take it at face value.


If he wanted to "help" the sport with an epic battle in Mercedes, he would give all Lewis's secrets to Bottas, something he said he will not do.

With Alonso there, fireworks would only be a bonus because I am sure he is more interested in increasing the value of his WDC.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:44 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
The amazing thing is that nobody seems to get Rosberg real intentions here..
He has effectively become Hamilton #1 fan because the more Hamilton shines, the better his WDC campaign will look.

Rosberg has zero interest to see Hamilton beaten and if he wanted Alonso in Mercedes, it would not be (only) for the fireworks but to make people realize(his wish) how strong and underrated he really was.

or, he's telling it like it is and as a fan would like to see Hamilton and Alonso go toe to toe again. Like he said, there would be fireworks. And again like he said, it's what many, many fans would want.

There doesn't always have to be a hidden meaning behind everything


Hidden meaning? It is clear if you add the dots.
Lewis has always been the benchmark for him. He has said it 250 times. If he cared about the fans(your theory) he would have not retired. He is in for HIMSELF.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Aside from anything else I didn't say he cared about the fans, I said (he was speaking) as a fan. There's a world of difference.

Lewis may well be his benchmark. But that doesn't have to change what he said. It works perfectly well if you take it at face value.


If he wanted to "help" the sport with an epic battle in Mercedes, he would give all Lewis's secrets to Bottas, something he said he will not do.

With Alonso there, fireworks will only be a consequence, but I am sure he is more interested in increasing the value of his WDC.

Where does this "help" come from? He never said he wanted to help the sport, just that he'd like to have seen Hamilton and Alonso fight it out in the same team. How on earth do you extrapolate him caring about the fans or wanting to help the sport from that? :?

Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me how people can ascribe all kinds of meaning to even the most straightforward utterances. He just said what many people on this forum were salivating about when his seat first became free. Why does it have to have hidden meaning?


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 8:53 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Hidden meaning? It is clear if you add the dots.
Lewis has always been the benchmark for him. He has said it 250 times. If he cared about the fans(your theory) he would have not retired. He is in for HIMSELF.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Aside from anything else I didn't say he cared about the fans, I said (he was speaking) as a fan. There's a world of difference.

Lewis may well be his benchmark. But that doesn't have to change what he said. It works perfectly well if you take it at face value.


If he wanted to "help" the sport with an epic battle in Mercedes, he would give all Lewis's secrets to Bottas, something he said he will not do.

With Alonso there, fireworks will only be a consequence, but I am sure he is more interested in increasing the value of his WDC.

Where does this "help" come from? He never said he wanted to help the sport, just that he'd like to have seen Hamilton and Alonso fight it out in the same team. How on earth do you extrapolate him caring about the fans or wanting to help the sport from that? :?

Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me how people can ascribe all kinds of meaning to even the most straightforward utterances. He just said what many people on this forum were salivating about when his seat first became free. Why does it have to have hidden meaning?


I only talked about "help" to reinforce my point.
Sane fans want battles. The name of the driver in the second seat matters only if he comes with benefits or you are one of his fans.

The mistake you make is to assume that everybody think there is no driver who would have a better chance to beat Hamilton.
He made the name of Alonso because he is proven and many hold him in high regard. Higher than even Hamilton.


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:03 pm 
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Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Pullrod wrote:
Hidden meaning? It is clear if you add the dots.
Lewis has always been the benchmark for him. He has said it 250 times. If he cared about the fans(your theory) he would have not retired. He is in for HIMSELF.

Sorry, but that's rubbish. Aside from anything else I didn't say he cared about the fans, I said (he was speaking) as a fan. There's a world of difference.

Lewis may well be his benchmark. But that doesn't have to change what he said. It works perfectly well if you take it at face value.


If he wanted to "help" the sport with an epic battle in Mercedes, he would give all Lewis's secrets to Bottas, something he said he will not do.

With Alonso there, fireworks will only be a consequence, but I am sure he is more interested in increasing the value of his WDC.

Where does this "help" come from? He never said he wanted to help the sport, just that he'd like to have seen Hamilton and Alonso fight it out in the same team. How on earth do you extrapolate him caring about the fans or wanting to help the sport from that? :?

Honestly, it never ceases to amaze me how people can ascribe all kinds of meaning to even the most straightforward utterances. He just said what many people on this forum were salivating about when his seat first became free. Why does it have to have hidden meaning?


I only talked about "help" to reinforce my point.
Sane fans want battles. The name of the driver in the second seat matters only if he comes with benefits or you are one of his fans.

The mistake you make is to assume that everybody think there is no driver who would have a better chance to beat Hamilton.
He made the name of Alonso because he is proven and many hold him in high regard. Higher than even Hamilton.

I'd be making that mistake only if I believed there was some hidden message behind his words. But because they make perfect sense without imparting any hidden meaning, I don't need to.

You can believe he's talking in code if you want, but I need a lot more than wild supposition to think it's anything other than what he says it is


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 06, 2017 9:23 pm 
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mds wrote:
Fiki wrote:
But all that, while I agree fully, is beside the point I made, mds. It was Hamilton himself who said he beat Alonso. That says a lot about Hamilton, it would be interesting what sports psychologists make of that.


That from time to time he states a well-accepted fact? :D
For sure! :D

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 5:59 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Surely you jest. So if Fernando was the one who went to Toyota, Trulli beats Fernando in those 3 races too? That's like saying Rosberg beat Verstappen in 2016 over the season.

Yes. As far as I know Rosberg won the WDC and Verstappen was never his team-mate

But neither were Trulli and Alonso team-mates for the last 3 races, but you're including those races in.

It isn't a teammate comparison when you include races where they weren't teammates!

While they were teammates in 2004 over 15 races, Trulli beat Alonso.

This is as irrelevant as Wurz beating Kimi in 2005 all the things considered.

When exactly did Wurz beat Kimi? Are you talking about the San Marino GP? Kimi retired from a comfortable lead for mechanical reasons :?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:56 am 
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Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


You're right, I just saw the brief typed note running along the bottom of the screen, which gave no dates. It does not make sense what I assumed, that it was 2012 before Hamilton joined. Thanks for the link: very informative and funny that Rosberg now thinks like one of us fans: :lol:

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 12:47 pm 
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POBRatings wrote:
Zoue wrote:
POBRatings wrote:
Just seen brief headline on tv that Rosberg wanted Alonso to join him at Mercedes and not Hamilton. This must have been in 2012-3. Wonder why and how that would have gone?

Are you sure it's not the report that's doing the rounds that Rosberg would have preferred Alonso to replace him at Mercedes (instead of Bottas)?

http://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/rosberg-id-prefer-alonso-to-have-replaced-me-at-mercedes-871378/


You're right, I just saw the brief typed note running along the bottom of the screen, which gave no dates. It does not make sense what I assumed, that it was 2012 before Hamilton joined. Thanks for the link: very informative and funny that Rosberg now thinks like one of us fans: :lol:

Well theoretically it could still happen for 2018.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 3:57 pm 
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Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Surely you jest. So if Fernando was the one who went to Toyota, Trulli beats Fernando in those 3 races too? That's like saying Rosberg beat Verstappen in 2016 over the season.

Yes. As far as I know Rosberg won the WDC and Verstappen was never his team-mate

But neither were Trulli and Alonso team-mates for the last 3 races, but you're including those races in.

It isn't a teammate comparison when you include races where they weren't teammates!

While they were teammates in 2004 over 15 races, Trulli beat Alonso.

This is as irrelevant as Wurz beating Kimi in 2005 all the things considered.

When exactly did Wurz beat Kimi? Are you talking about the San Marino GP? Kimi retired from a comfortable lead for mechanical reasons :?

I know, i'm using the same nonsense logic based only on pure stats


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 07, 2017 8:52 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Absolutely agree with Pullrod. We should not be selective and look only at the races they were teammates - but at all races they were teammates. Then, Alonso beats Trulli over the course of all races they were teammates. All else is indeed selective.

Let's be clear here: nobody, as far as I'm aware, is actually questioning that Alonso was the better driver of the pair. I've never seen anybody make that claim. What people are debating is whether Alonso actually has a perfect record of never being outscored by a teammate over the course of a season.

He doesn't, of course - Button outscored him in 2015, making it a completely moot point. That's one year where he was 'beaten' without question. People debate Trulli and Hamilton because it's less clear cut, to varying degrees in the two cases: Hamilton did finish ahead on countback, but did not outscore Alonso, hence the wording of the original claim. Trulli is a different matter: he did outscore Alonso during their time together, but he did not do so over the course of a season because they weren't teammates for the whole season.

Personally, I think that what matters is whether a driver was actually out-driven over the season, not outscored. In that regard, Trulli was clearly lucky to be in front as was Button - but Hamilton probably was unlucky to not be further ahead, so even as an Alonso fan I think it's dubious to claim he still has an unbeaten record. You can't get by on a technicality anymore, and it hasn't really been true since 2007 if we're honest with ourselves.


I agree with everything you wrote. :thumbup:

Still, I would insist that the only meaningful and conclusive (if at all) comparison of teammates is to look at their total of races where they were teammates - and not on some selective part of it.

To be clear, IMHO
- Alonso lost to Marques but was the better driver
- Alonso lost marginally to Hamilton (you can call it a straw if you want) - who was the better driver? - considering that the fall-out with McLaren must have negatively affected his performance points towards Alonso - however, considering it was Hamilton's rookie season points towards Hamilton
- Alonso beat Trulli and was the better driver
- Alonso beat Button and was the better driver (both over the total of their duel)


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:21 am 
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myattitude wrote:
mcdo wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.

I remember being livid when Ron said that on TV

I can't find a video but he was basically saying the pit board (Ron & co) left Lewis out despite Kimi passing him because the race wasn't with Kimi (fuel loads), it was with Fernando. "We" was just a word for the pit board who were making the decisions. I'm sure it could have been used in the other direction too.


You are being naive or disingenuous here.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 6:38 am 
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nixxxon wrote:
Covalent wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
myattitude wrote:
nixxxon wrote:
Yes. As far as I know Rosberg won the WDC and Verstappen was never his team-mate

But neither were Trulli and Alonso team-mates for the last 3 races, but you're including those races in.

It isn't a teammate comparison when you include races where they weren't teammates!

While they were teammates in 2004 over 15 races, Trulli beat Alonso.

This is as irrelevant as Wurz beating Kimi in 2005 all the things considered.

When exactly did Wurz beat Kimi? Are you talking about the San Marino GP? Kimi retired from a comfortable lead for mechanical reasons :?

I know, i'm using the same nonsense logic based only on pure stats

Well yeah now I see the analogy; Wurz "beat" Kimi because Kimi didn't finish the race, Alonso "beat" Trulli because Trulli didn't finish the season (in the team). :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 10:43 am 
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-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
myattitude wrote:
mcdo wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.

I remember being livid when Ron said that on TV

I can't find a video but he was basically saying the pit board (Ron & co) left Lewis out despite Kimi passing him because the race wasn't with Kimi (fuel loads), it was with Fernando. "We" was just a word for the pit board who were making the decisions. I'm sure it could have been used in the other direction too.


You are being naive or disingenuous here.

This is Ron Dennis so think about it, Ron would never blatantly speak like that in public. He's far too cordial and professional than to engage in reality show squabbles on camera. If you find the video I can dissect it for you. He was referring to the pit wall making the tactical decisions in regards to leaving Lewis out on old tyres while Kimi was catching. They weren't racing Kimi (as it seemed at that point in the championship), the race was between Lewis and Fernando.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 12:43 pm 
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myattitude wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
myattitude wrote:
mcdo wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.

I remember being livid when Ron said that on TV

I can't find a video but he was basically saying the pit board (Ron & co) left Lewis out despite Kimi passing him because the race wasn't with Kimi (fuel loads), it was with Fernando. "We" was just a word for the pit board who were making the decisions. I'm sure it could have been used in the other direction too.


You are being naive or disingenuous here.

This is Ron Dennis so think about it, Ron would never blatantly speak like that in public. He's far too cordial and professional than to engage in reality show squabbles on camera. If you find the video I can dissect it for you. He was referring to the pit wall making the tactical decisions in regards to leaving Lewis out on old tyres while Kimi was catching. They weren't racing Kimi (as it seemed at that point in the championship), the race was between Lewis and Fernando.

Yes that was my interpretation as well.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 08, 2017 1:18 pm 
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myattitude wrote:
-ZeroGravityToilet- wrote:
myattitude wrote:
mcdo wrote:
myattitude wrote:
Yeah I think the "we were racing Fernando" thing was overblown and is taken out of context these days through the contortions of historical discussions. I saw that interview again last year and it wasn't nefarious. If anyone has the video, post it here and let's re-watch it.

But the environment was toxic and hostile.

I remember being livid when Ron said that on TV

I can't find a video but he was basically saying the pit board (Ron & co) left Lewis out despite Kimi passing him because the race wasn't with Kimi (fuel loads), it was with Fernando. "We" was just a word for the pit board who were making the decisions. I'm sure it could have been used in the other direction too.


You are being naive or disingenuous here.

This is Ron Dennis so think about it, Ron would never blatantly speak like that in public. He's far too cordial and professional than to engage in reality show squabbles on camera. If you find the video I can dissect it for you. He was referring to the pit wall making the tactical decisions in regards to leaving Lewis out on old tyres while Kimi was catching. They weren't racing Kimi (as it seemed at that point in the championship), the race was between Lewis and Fernando.

That has to be one of the biggest ball drops ever seen leaving a driver out driving on the canvass of the tyres, the driver then having zero grip when driving into the wetter pitlane.

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