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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:50 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ha! And how did that happen?

They cleaned the house top to bottom. Left no stones unturned. Removed dinosaurs like Luca di. They even threw Alonso out (probably mutual though) because he was such a negative Nancy. And brought in a guy that wanted results NOW, not tomorrow, not 2016, not after some long-term project. Anyone getting in the way of progress was shown the door.

Just contrast Arrivabene with Boullier. You're just proving my point really. So I think we agree.


No I haven't just proved your point. Ferrari had a major cull only a few years ago and brought in people like Pat Fry and look at there success then. They produced the 2012 car which was a lemon and only thanks to Alonso nearly won the title some how. There 2013/14 cars weren't great either.

I'd say while Arrivabene has been a breath of fresh air he's been rather lucky that Ferrari have produced a decent car this year. Lets see how he gets on when things get tough. Bringing so many new aero parts didnt seem to work did it in spain. They had so many new parts they wasn't sure what was working and what wasn't. Anyway if you think having a mass cull every time a team doesn't produce a good car is the way forward then so be it. I think you need to give a team of people at least 3 years to get things right.


Did you just seriously compare the 2012 Ferrari to 2015 McLaren? Really?


No I didn't compare the 2012 Ferrari with the 2015 McLaren. Maybe I was a bit harsh calling it a lemon but Massa showed the true pace of that car and it was only Alonso's skill and a few wet races that meant it nearly won the title. I was making a point that getting rid of lots of people and bringing new people in doesn't mean you will produce a good car next year.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 4:59 pm 
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Actually it was Alonso showing the true pace of that car. Massa was the lemon.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:12 pm 
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Ross Brawn use to say when he was at Ferrari when Irvine was there they knew when they had a good car because Irvine was only a couple of tenths behind Schumacher but when they had a bad one he could be over a second slower. I think that was the case for Ferrari in 2012. Alonso can drive around problems like Schumacher could and made it competitive. Think that was proven last year when Alonso hammered Kimi


Last edited by Pest44 on Mon May 11, 2015 7:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 5:40 pm 
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I agree with the OP for most of it. I fully expected growing pains, but I never suspected the 2015 McLaren-Honda to be this utterly poor in so many regards. I was very excited to have Honda back, but honestly, the 2008 Honda had more pace relative to the leader than this...

It blows my mind how badly everything had been handled overall with the build up to this season, and the season so far, as well. Huge golden opportunities just squandered with things that we can't even decipher behind the scenes.

The new team principal had plenty of opportunity to take charge in contrast to Whitmarsh. Blown.
The new driver line-up announcement had plenty of opportunity to be an exciting reveal. Blown.
The new, Mercedes-less inspired livery had plenty of opportunity to be an exciting reveal. Blown.
The newer, new Mercedes-less inspired livery had plenty of opportunity to be an exciting reveal. Blown.
The new, star driver has an accident in testing that no news is released. Speculation ramps up. Team releases news. Speculation ramps up. Driver denies what the team released. Speculation ensues. Soap opera.
First qualifying comes and their times light up the timing boards like a Minardi. Dud.

It's understandable that testing went poorly, as dyno testing won't expose all flaws of the power unit system. And you can't expect ANY company to just go in with oodles and oodles of spare parts if you don't need them (they do have to remain somewhat fiscally responsible).

Yet, they sit there releasing media reliving the Senna/Honda glory days, hashtagging "Size Zero" about a car that can't even handle or put power down, and barely getting it to the finish in the meantime. Sorry, guys and gals, but that doesn't cut it. Winning does. A season of learning and evolution is fine, but they've utterly blown it so far in a comedy of errors. My support as a fan of both companies has been hanging on a knife-edge as of late. They're making the Ferrari wind-tunnel correlation issues look like insignificant problems / excuses.

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 6:41 pm 
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I think you mean The Emperor's New Clothes which is about an emperor not a king and it's a fairy tale, not a fable.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 9:55 pm 
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Remember all those people who 6 months ago said that Honda would have a huge advantage starting one year late? Funny how wrong they were

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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 10:40 pm 
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What I want to know is if Alonso felt the same with his car?

I didn't hear no such complaints from the Samurai?

The Samurai was also way ahead of his teammate all race and looked like he could be in the points by the end while Jenson was keeping company with the Manors...

So what gives? They were pretty evenly matched in qualifying but the race was a different story.


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PostPosted: Mon May 11, 2015 11:52 pm 
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kleefton wrote:
So what gives? They were pretty evenly matched in qualifying but the race was a different story.

Well, either Button's car had a problem that Alonso's didn't, or Alonso can handle the problem while Button can't. Either one is plausible.

... Maybe coming from the F14-T, Alonso is so used to a car with awful drivability and snap oversteer it feels normal to him :lol:

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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 9:53 pm 
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McLaren are the AC Milan of Formula 1.

Once upon a time they dominated this sport. Nowadays, they are merely an afterthought.


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PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2015 11:35 pm 
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Pest44 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Pest44 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Ha! And how did that happen?

They cleaned the house top to bottom. Left no stones unturned. Removed dinosaurs like Luca di. They even threw Alonso out (probably mutual though) because he was such a negative Nancy. And brought in a guy that wanted results NOW, not tomorrow, not 2016, not after some long-term project. Anyone getting in the way of progress was shown the door.

Just contrast Arrivabene with Boullier. You're just proving my point really. So I think we agree.


No I haven't just proved your point. Ferrari had a major cull only a few years ago and brought in people like Pat Fry and look at there success then. They produced the 2012 car which was a lemon and only thanks to Alonso nearly won the title some how. There 2013/14 cars weren't great either.

I'd say while Arrivabene has been a breath of fresh air he's been rather lucky that Ferrari have produced a decent car this year. Lets see how he gets on when things get tough. Bringing so many new aero parts didnt seem to work did it in spain. They had so many new parts they wasn't sure what was working and what wasn't. Anyway if you think having a mass cull every time a team doesn't produce a good car is the way forward then so be it. I think you need to give a team of people at least 3 years to get things right.


Did you just seriously compare the 2012 Ferrari to 2015 McLaren? Really?


No I didn't compare the 2012 Ferrari with the 2015 McLaren. Maybe I was a bit harsh calling it a lemon but Massa showed the true pace of that car and it was only Alonso's skill and a few wet races that meant it nearly won the title. I was making a point that getting rid of lots of people and bringing new people in doesn't mean you will produce a good car next year.

Where were these wet races Alonso owes his title challenge to? The only wet races that season were Malaysia, where Alonso won, and Brazil where Alonso would've been 4th had it not been for Hulkenburg taking out Hamilton.

The 2012 car was initially crap but they'd largely sorted it out by Spain and had a competitive car for the rest of the season, and arguably the best car in racing trim. Alonso's problem in the second half of the season was his comparative lack of quali pace. He spent a lot of races fighting his way through the field to 2nd or 3rd only to find that the leader was far too far down the road for him to actually mount any sort of challenge.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 1:00 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:
The 2012 car was initially crap but they'd largely sorted it out by Spain and had a competitive car for the rest of the season, and arguably the best car in racing trim. Alonso's problem in the second half of the season was his comparative lack of quali pace.

No, just no. Ferrari most certainly did not have great race pace in 2012, at least not relative to Red Bull.

Even after a few initial problems with the car were sorted out, Barcelona and Monza were the only races where Ferrari was actually faster than Red Bull. In some races like Canada, Silverstone, and Hockenheim they were very close. Belgium is difficult to judge as Alonso got taken out on lap 1. As for the rest of the season, Red Bull were stronger than Ferrari pretty much everywhere (that's 14 races, as opposed to only 2 for Ferrari).

Alonso's 2012 season is a myth, a legend, up there with Senna's 1993 season.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:58 am 
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GingerFurball wrote:


The 2012 car was initially crap but they'd largely sorted it out by Spain and had a competitive car for the rest of the season, and arguably the best car in racing trim.


No way was that the best car in race trim. It never could stay with a Redbull or Mclaren after Monza.
It was clearly the third best car that year, but that car had no business winning the world title, and Alonso almost won it.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 8:39 am 
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ron has been hyping it for many months -far beyond the real situation that they find themselves in and I bet Fernando heard a lot of false promises and was promised the world , but he finds himself in a situation now where he has little choice , but to stay and hope that rons promise of a world championship car in the next 3 years will come true , and they will need both jenson and Fernando for next year to further develop the car into something much stronger .

and has anybody noticed ron standing over the mechanics , starring at them egging them on , would'nt this this become annoying -if only it was that easy ron , lol


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:45 am 
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118950

So first visible signs of cracks. Arai is under pressure, but thinks they'll be mounting a challenge on Merc by year end and would be on podium by Silverstone.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 9:56 am 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118950

So first visible signs of cracks. Arai is under pressure, but thinks they'll be mounting a challenge on Merc by year end and would be on podium by Silverstone.

He's living in dreamland if he thinks that then. Even if Mercedes stopped developing their car totally from now I doubt McLaren would catch them up before 2016.

I wonder if this is part of Honda's problem, they keep setting themselves completely unrealistic targets, much like they did during their last F1 effort in the mid 00s. It leads to them missing them by a long way and makes them look like they are completely incompetent. Perhaps if they had been realistic from the get go, saying they'd struggle to mix it for the first few races but looking at points later in the year, they'd not be the laughing stock they are at the moment.

Then again it isn't like McLaren have been great the last few years either. I don't know why anyone thought they'd be fighting for wins and podiums any time soon given neither McLaren nor Honda have looked close to that in their last few F1 attempts (McLaren 2013-now and Honda 2007/2008). They won't be near the podium barring a completely topsy turvy race, and I mean incredibly topsy turvy! I wonder if Honda were banking on everyone else being just as unreliable with the new engines as well? Maybe they thought F1 was heading back to the early 90s when engines were popping left, right and centre and any team could grab a podium in the right race.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:44 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118950

So first visible signs of cracks. Arai is under pressure, but thinks they'll be mounting a challenge on Merc by year end and would be on podium by Silverstone.

He's living in dreamland if he thinks that then. Even if Mercedes stopped developing their car totally from now I doubt McLaren would catch them up before 2016.

I wonder if this is part of Honda's problem, they keep setting themselves completely unrealistic targets, much like they did during their last F1 effort in the mid 00s. It leads to them missing them by a long way and makes them look like they are completely incompetent. Perhaps if they had been realistic from the get go, saying they'd struggle to mix it for the first few races but looking at points later in the year, they'd not be the laughing stock they are at the moment.

Then again it isn't like McLaren have been great the last few years either. I don't know why anyone thought they'd be fighting for wins and podiums any time soon given neither McLaren nor Honda have looked close to that in their last few F1 attempts (McLaren 2013-now and Honda 2007/2008). They won't be near the podium barring a completely topsy turvy race, and I mean incredibly topsy turvy! I wonder if Honda were banking on everyone else being just as unreliable with the new engines as well? Maybe they thought F1 was heading back to the early 90s when engines were popping left, right and centre and any team could grab a podium in the right race.


Nothing wrong with lofty aims as long as you have something to back them up with. This is where both McLaren and Honda are lacking. There should be a lot of commotion. New aero parts every other race or something. You never hear them do anything. The only thing they ever talk about is tuning up the engine 10% every race. Where are the updates? New wing ideas? New aero elements? I mean, Red Bull messed it up at Spain too. But at least they worked hard to bring a HUGE update. At least you can see they are putting in some serious effort.

I have never seen a team make strides without a lot of noise. You tend to get a sense of something's happening. There's none with McLaren.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:45 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
McLaren are the AC Milan of Formula 1.

Once upon a time they dominated this sport. Nowadays, they are merely an afterthought.

McLaren are a really a shadow of their former selves. They have dropped the ball so many times it's ludicrous. They couldn't organise a fire in a match factory. Since 1998, they have failed to capitalise on excellent opportunities in 1999, 2005, 2007 and 2008.

In 2012, they build the MP4-27. It was the title challenger they had waited for since 2008. Sure, it had a narrow set-up window but it was very quick and McLaren had two world champions on the team. Button was on the top of his game and Hamilton was desperate to reassert himself into the team.

McLaren then proceeded to throw away a likely WCC and WDC for Hamilton. McLaren botched 8 pit stops in 5 of the first 8 races (Hamilton suffering from 7 and Button 1), multiple gearbox changes and failed to notice broken anti-roll bars and rear suspension in the Asian finales. The two retirements from the lead in Singapore and Abu Dhabi were the icing on the cake.

It's conservatively estimated that even including Hamilton's retirements in Singapore and Abu Dhabi that Hamilton could have still won the title by 3 points and McLaren won the WCC by ~98 points.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 11:48 am 
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I'm sure there's a sensible answer for this, but why do McLaren not make their own engines?

They have facilities as good, if not better than Merc, and make all the engines for the road cars, which include hybrids?

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:18 pm 
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Beschy wrote:
I'm sure there's a sensible answer for this, but why do McLaren not make their own engines?

They have facilities as good, if not better than Merc, and make all the engines for the road cars, which include hybrids?

Cost is my best guess.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:27 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:

Nothing wrong with lofty aims as long as you have something to back them up with. This is where both McLaren and Honda are lacking. There should be a lot of commotion. New aero parts every other race or something. You never hear them do anything. The only thing they ever talk about is tuning up the engine 10% every race. Where are the updates? New wing ideas? New aero elements? I mean, Red Bull messed it up at Spain too. But at least they worked hard to bring a HUGE update. At least you can see they are putting in some serious effort.

I have never seen a team make strides without a lot of noise. You tend to get a sense of something's happening. There's none with McLaren.


I don't know where you are getting your info from but it may explain why you have such a problem with McLaren Honda, because you are woefully misinformed.

They've never only said they are tuning up the engine 10% each race. I can't even recall them saying it once.

There were driveability and reliability upgrades on the PU brought to Spain.

New rear suspension parts brought to Spain.

New fuel brought by Exxon Mobil for Spain.

They've brought multiple new front wings to the races since Australia.

They brought a new diffuser and floor to China.

Lots of new parts were tested yesterday for Monaco and Canada as well.

That's off the top of my head, I've probably missed some.


It's all very well having a go at them for the position they are in, but you can't have a go at them for not trying hard enough to fix it.

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 12:33 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

Nothing wrong with lofty aims as long as you have something to back them up with. This is where both McLaren and Honda are lacking. There should be a lot of commotion. New aero parts every other race or something. You never hear them do anything. The only thing they ever talk about is tuning up the engine 10% every race. Where are the updates? New wing ideas? New aero elements? I mean, Red Bull messed it up at Spain too. But at least they worked hard to bring a HUGE update. At least you can see they are putting in some serious effort.

I have never seen a team make strides without a lot of noise. You tend to get a sense of something's happening. There's none with McLaren.


I don't know where you are getting your info from but it may explain why you have such a problem with McLaren Honda, because you are woefully misinformed.

They've never only said they are tuning up the engine 10% each race. I can't even recall them saying it once.

There were driveability and reliability upgrades on the PU brought to Spain.

New rear suspension parts brought to Spain.

New fuel brought by Exxon Mobil for Spain.

They've brought multiple new front wings to the races since Australia.

They brought a new diffuser and floor to China.

Lots of new parts were tested yesterday for Monaco and Canada as well.

That's off the top of my head, I've probably missed some.


It's all very well having a go at them for the position they are in, but you can't have a go at them for not trying hard enough to fix it.


Fair enough. I do remember a few of those things (like the floor and diffuser). I will still stand by my statement that the supposedly big Spain upgrades are not on the same scale as other teams (to be fair, Ferrari's and RBR's updates didn't really work). As for the engine, they said they'll gradually turn it up. I just said 10% which would be roughly the same, but that's what I meant.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 3:58 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

Nothing wrong with lofty aims as long as you have something to back them up with. This is where both McLaren and Honda are lacking. There should be a lot of commotion. New aero parts every other race or something. You never hear them do anything. The only thing they ever talk about is tuning up the engine 10% every race. Where are the updates? New wing ideas? New aero elements? I mean, Red Bull messed it up at Spain too. But at least they worked hard to bring a HUGE update. At least you can see they are putting in some serious effort.

I have never seen a team make strides without a lot of noise. You tend to get a sense of something's happening. There's none with McLaren.


I don't know where you are getting your info from but it may explain why you have such a problem with McLaren Honda, because you are woefully misinformed.

They've never only said they are tuning up the engine 10% each race. I can't even recall them saying it once.

There were driveability and reliability upgrades on the PU brought to Spain.

New rear suspension parts brought to Spain.

New fuel brought by Exxon Mobil for Spain.

They've brought multiple new front wings to the races since Australia.

They brought a new diffuser and floor to China.

Lots of new parts were tested yesterday for Monaco and Canada as well.

That's off the top of my head, I've probably missed some.


It's all very well having a go at them for the position they are in, but you can't have a go at them for not trying hard enough to fix it.


Fair enough. I do remember a few of those things (like the floor and diffuser). I will still stand by my statement that the supposedly big Spain upgrades are not on the same scale as other teams (to be fair, Ferrari's and RBR's updates didn't really work). As for the engine, they said they'll gradually turn it up. I just said 10% which would be roughly the same, but that's what I meant.

Making big statements like Ferrari did by saying 70% of the aero package is brand new in Spain doesn't mean you get success. Surely it's better bringing a smaller new package which you know is gonna work rather than a massive package which you're not 100% sure on.

At the moment at think its better for McLaren to bring small updates to each race as bringing loads of new parts might mean they get lost in it all. You can see there making progress. Alonso was on to score points until the unfortunate incident of a tear off visor blocking his braking duct meant he retired. Considering where they were after Australia that's decent progress.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:05 pm 
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GingerFurball wrote:
Where were these wet races Alonso owes his title challenge to? The only wet races that season were Malaysia, where Alonso won, and Brazil where Alonso would've been 4th had it not been for Hulkenburg taking out Hamilton.

The 2012 car was initially crap but they'd largely sorted it out by Spain and had a competitive car for the rest of the season, and arguably the best car in racing trim. Alonso's problem in the second half of the season was his comparative lack of quali pace. He spent a lot of races fighting his way through the field to 2nd or 3rd only to find that the leader was far too far down the road for him to actually mount any sort of challenge.


Well I had a look back at 2012 because I do remember there seemed to be a bit of rain but like you said only the two races but there were two wet qualy sessions which helped him get pole as the Ferrari seemed to be good in the rain. Getting pole at silverstone meant he nearly won but couldn't keep the faster red bull of webber behind and getting pole in Germany meant he could control the race and ended up winning. 2012 was a weird season with the tyres but at no point was the Ferrari fastest in race trim.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 4:11 pm 
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Pest44 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:

Nothing wrong with lofty aims as long as you have something to back them up with. This is where both McLaren and Honda are lacking. There should be a lot of commotion. New aero parts every other race or something. You never hear them do anything. The only thing they ever talk about is tuning up the engine 10% every race. Where are the updates? New wing ideas? New aero elements? I mean, Red Bull messed it up at Spain too. But at least they worked hard to bring a HUGE update. At least you can see they are putting in some serious effort.

I have never seen a team make strides without a lot of noise. You tend to get a sense of something's happening. There's none with McLaren.


I don't know where you are getting your info from but it may explain why you have such a problem with McLaren Honda, because you are woefully misinformed.

They've never only said they are tuning up the engine 10% each race. I can't even recall them saying it once.

There were driveability and reliability upgrades on the PU brought to Spain.

New rear suspension parts brought to Spain.

New fuel brought by Exxon Mobil for Spain.

They've brought multiple new front wings to the races since Australia.

They brought a new diffuser and floor to China.

Lots of new parts were tested yesterday for Monaco and Canada as well.

That's off the top of my head, I've probably missed some.


It's all very well having a go at them for the position they are in, but you can't have a go at them for not trying hard enough to fix it.


Fair enough. I do remember a few of those things (like the floor and diffuser). I will still stand by my statement that the supposedly big Spain upgrades are not on the same scale as other teams (to be fair, Ferrari's and RBR's updates didn't really work). As for the engine, they said they'll gradually turn it up. I just said 10% which would be roughly the same, but that's what I meant.

Making big statements like Ferrari did by saying 70% of the aero package is brand new in Spain doesn't mean you get success. Surely it's better bringing a smaller new package which you know is gonna work rather than a massive package which you're not 100% sure on.

At the moment at think its better for McLaren to bring small updates to each race as bringing loads of new parts might mean they get lost in it all. You can see there making progress. Alonso was on to score points until the unfortunate incident of a tear off visor blocking his braking duct meant he retired. Considering where they were after Australia that's decent progress.


You don't get big gains thru small updates.

Anyway, while not exactly McLaren, but Honda is pretty much changing its engine. At least one partner has found out they have a complete turd on their hands.

http://en.f1i.com/news/12325-honda-iden ... pment.html

Quote:
Asked specifically where he feels Honda needs to develop using its tokens, Arai replied: “One is combustion, and the MGU-K and MGU-H because energy is a very important part. Combustion and energy recovery systems are very important.


Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 5:27 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
You don't get big gains thru small updates.

Anyway, while not exactly McLaren, but Honda is pretty much changing its engine. At least one partner has found out they have a complete turd on their hands.

http://en.f1i.com/news/12325-honda-iden ... pment.html

Quote:
Asked specifically where he feels Honda needs to develop using its tokens, Arai replied: “One is combustion, and the MGU-K and MGU-H because energy is a very important part. Combustion and energy recovery systems are very important.


Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


Well Mercedes seem to make good progress with there small update in Spain while Ferrari went backwards with there major update.

That seems like a very simple comment from Arai. Not giving much away there.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 5:27 pm 
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I just love the supreme optimism of these guys as they take out their scattergun and see what they can hit, perhaps Samurai Alonso is in the right place after all ;-)

“Maybe change the combustion concept, or the turbocharger, or the camshaft, those kind of parts. We are now confirming which parts are most effective. We should try to change the combustion concept because maybe the other power-unit suppliers always think about more good combustion characteristics. “Every day, on the RnD side they are already thinking about it, calculating or testing a new combustion concept to get more horsepower to immediately apply. Maybe that’s the time to use the tokens.”

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 5:50 pm 
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mas wrote:
I just love the supreme optimism of these guys as they take out their scattergun and see what they can hit, perhaps Samurai Alonso is in the right place after all ;-)

“Maybe change the combustion concept, or the turbocharger, or the camshaft, those kind of parts. We are now confirming which parts are most effective. We should try to change the combustion concept because maybe the other power-unit suppliers always think about more good combustion characteristics. “Every day, on the RnD side they are already thinking about it, calculating or testing a new combustion concept to get more horsepower to immediately apply. Maybe that’s the time to use the tokens.”


So Honda doesn't think about having good a combustion unit. That should give a clue why they suck so much.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:12 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Nothing wrong with lofty aims as long as you have something to back them up with. This is where both McLaren and Honda are lacking. There should be a lot of commotion. New aero parts every other race or something. You never hear them do anything. The only thing they ever talk about is tuning up the engine 10% every race. Where are the updates? New wing ideas? New aero elements? I mean, Red Bull messed it up at Spain too. But at least they worked hard to bring a HUGE update. At least you can see they are putting in some serious effort.

I have never seen a team make strides without a lot of noise. You tend to get a sense of something's happening. There's none with McLaren.


They can't add downforce (which generates additional drag) until the engine can be fully turned up, so there's only so much they can put on the car on the aero front at the moment.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:18 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


They have tokens, and they have to spend them. You can probably say the same about ANY items they pick on this list.
http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2015/01/20/m ... ules-2015/

By the time Mercedes is done spending their tokens, you can probably even replace "Honda" with "Mercedes" and "Sakura" with "wherever Merc's engine facilities are" and it will still apply.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:20 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


Pre Season (i fink) I saw an interview with Button where he was talking about Honda, and the experience he has / had with them

I found it interesting when talking about what they would bring to the Team, he ended by saying "there were lots of new faces" which caught my attention.

It may be that the Honda Engineers on the Project themselves, are still learning .............................

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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:45 pm 
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phazblade wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


Pre Season (i fink) I saw an interview with Button where he was talking about Honda, and the experience he has / had with them

I found it interesting when talking about what they would bring to the Team, he ended by saying "there were lots of new faces" which caught my attention.

It may be that the Honda Engineers on the Project themselves, are still learning .............................


Honda's F1 (and other racing) programs exist to train engineers. I don't have a source at hand, but it was mentioned when Honda re-entered F1. So yes, they are learning as that is indeed the purpose.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:46 pm 
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phazblade wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


Pre Season (i fink) I saw an interview with Button where he was talking about Honda, and the experience he has / had with them

I found it interesting when talking about what they would bring to the Team, he ended by saying "there were lots of new faces" which caught my attention.

It may be that the Honda Engineers on the Project themselves, are still learning .............................


The last time they made engines for F1:
- There were no energy recovery systems
- There were no electric motors
- There were no turbo-chargers

I would be very worried if there were no new faces to take care of these new areas!!


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 6:50 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
phazblade wrote:
ReservoirDog wrote:
Basically, the whole engine (combustion + MGU-K + MGU-H) is getting a redesign. So much for Honda and its amazing Sakura facilities.


Pre Season (i fink) I saw an interview with Button where he was talking about Honda, and the experience he has / had with them

I found it interesting when talking about what they would bring to the Team, he ended by saying "there were lots of new faces" which caught my attention.

It may be that the Honda Engineers on the Project themselves, are still learning .............................


Honda's F1 (and other racing) programs exist to train engineers. I don't have a source at hand, but it was mentioned when Honda re-entered F1. So yes, they are learning as that is indeed the purpose.



If Toyota could fail, so could Honda. And this is a much more complex era.

Alonso can say all he wants. But being near the top is always a much better option.


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PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2015 8:10 pm 
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trento wrote:
If Toyota could fail, so could Honda.

Except for several things:
Honda has tons of experience F1 (Toyota did not) and Honda works together with a vastly experienced chassis builder team which is McLaren, Toyota worked alone... and they were out of the F1 teams hub in UK, they were isolated in Germany.
Toyota failed big time on so many fronts, it was ridiculous. Dont count on Honda to do anything even remotely close.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:19 pm 
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A year later (since I started this thread), McLaren suck just as much. Still haven't made it to Q3. McHonda is the biggest disaster I can think of in the last 20 years of F1.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:39 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
A year later (since I started this thread), McLaren suck just as much. Still haven't made it to Q3. McHonda is the biggest disaster I can think of in the last 20 years of F1.

McHonda is the biggest failure since.. the Honda factory team back in 2007-08.

I honestly don't understand how Honda can keep failing so badly when they have resources and money on par with anyone. I think that Honda is simply falling behind the times. Even Toyota did a much better job when they had a factory team in the 2000's. The Honda V8 was supposedly 70-80 hp down on the Mercedes V8. Jenson and Rubens were amazed just how good the Merc V8 was when they switched to Brawn GP in 2009.

This isn't the late 80's anymore, and even back then, Honda had way more resources than anyone else out there. It was at one point rumored that they outspend the competition by an 8-to-1 ratio. When Renault came along in the 90's and had a budget with which they could actually compete with, Honda was dethroned rather quickly.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:40 pm 
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With that being said, I'm not letting McLaren off the hook either. I don't believe that their current chassis is up there with the top guys. Ever since Paddy Lowe left them in 2012, their cars have been abhorrently average. Coincidentally, Mercedes have got so much stronger since Lowe joined them.

I think people are underestimating just how much of an impact Lowe had on McLaren and now Mercedes. I rate him up there with Newey as one of the absolute best Technical Directors in the sport.


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:41 pm 
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True. Hard to see how will they work this out. It's something fundamentally wrong, no easy improvements. In China, they were so easily overtaken on the straights, like a 3rd class team. Amazing. And now Button predicts a hard race, probably the same will happen on the straight-bend-straight of Sochi racetrack. They picked up a few points towards the end of the last season, now, even tough they a bit improved, the competition seems harder, and there are no retirements to gain the positions. Really hard times for the big name.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 30, 2016 10:44 pm 
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ReservoirDog wrote:
A year later (since I started this thread), McLaren suck just as much. Still haven't made it to Q3. McHonda is the biggest disaster I can think of in the last 20 years of F1.


*cough*
Lola
*sneeze*
Mastercard
*snort*

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PostPosted: Sun May 01, 2016 12:13 am 
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F1 has a lot of fake journalism ... ie, 'reporters' who basically serve up press releases.

We saw this in the US with the aborted USGP team. The 'reporters' on the old US SPEED network were falling all over themselves about how wonderful this was going to be. There were no problems at all at the team, everything was just peachy-keen and wonderful, right up to the day that they had to report the press releases that the team was folding and would never make its first race.

To me, its been equally hilarious watching the british-based reporters fall all over themselves with constant announcements of how wonderful the McClaren team is.

Anyone with half a brain could guess that last season was going to be a struggle. We'd just seen the year before that only one of three teams of engineers could get one of these new engines 'right'. We'd seen the struggles that Renault had had in trying to even get an engine to be 'workable'. So, all of the pre-season hype about how wonderful McClaren was going to be was obviously a lot of hot-air. And yet, it filled the airwaves from all of the gullible 'reporters' who predictably took McClaren's press releases and reported them as 'news'.

And of course, every single week since we've seen the regular stories about how McClaren-Honda is on the verge of massive improvement and the 'is-this-the-week?' stories that somehow expect this back-marker team is going to suddenly surge to the front.

Mainly its all an excercise in showing how worthless most of the 'reporting' and 'news' about F1 really is.


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