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PostPosted: Tue Feb 17, 2015 10:40 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Just been looking at the points system you need 40 points so why score 60 points for winning F2 and 50 points for winning GP2?

The system is poorly thought out and politically motivated. It's embarrassing really. Right up there with the double points rule as something that is hard to imagine could get through a panel of adults.

A better system would be to say that you need 10 points to enter F1. Any car racing series should get you at least 1 point. Slicks and wings series like Formula BMW and Formula Renault 2.0 are worth 2 points. Mid-tier series like Formula 3 are worth 4 points and final stage series like GP2 and FR 3.5 are worth 6. There should also be a 4 point requirement to race GP2. That way anyone with GP2 experience will be eligible for a super license.

I totally disagree that points should be given for merely competing in junior Formulas, you want the Champion drivers in F1 not also rans with massive budgets.

The only way to prevent pay drivers from getting into F1 would be to have a grid filled with large manufacturer teams that don't need the money. It would be impossible to implement a license system based around subjectively evaluating talent.

Well that's apparently what they have done with the new system

Nah, they've just ensured that only rich drivers with some talent get a chance. They're effectively closing the door on drivers who struggle with funding


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:42 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The system is poorly thought out and politically motivated. It's embarrassing really. Right up there with the double points rule as something that is hard to imagine could get through a panel of adults.

A better system would be to say that you need 10 points to enter F1. Any car racing series should get you at least 1 point. Slicks and wings series like Formula BMW and Formula Renault 2.0 are worth 2 points. Mid-tier series like Formula 3 are worth 4 points and final stage series like GP2 and FR 3.5 are worth 6. There should also be a 4 point requirement to race GP2. That way anyone with GP2 experience will be eligible for a super license.

I totally disagree that points should be given for merely competing in junior Formulas, you want the Champion drivers in F1 not also rans with massive budgets.

The only way to prevent pay drivers from getting into F1 would be to have a grid filled with large manufacturer teams that don't need the money. It would be impossible to implement a license system based around subjectively evaluating talent.

Well that's apparently what they have done with the new system

Nah, they've just ensured that only rich drivers with some talent get a chance. They're effectively closing the door on drivers who struggle with funding

How are drivers struggling with funding going to get noticed by the F1 team's in the first place, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg?

To begin with you have to have the funding to be racing in single seaters

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 7:44 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
A better system would be to say that you need 10 points to enter F1. Any car racing series should get you at least 1 point. Slicks and wings series like Formula BMW and Formula Renault 2.0 are worth 2 points. Mid-tier series like Formula 3 are worth 4 points and final stage series like GP2 and FR 3.5 are worth 6. There should also be a 4 point requirement to race GP2. That way anyone with GP2 experience will be eligible for a super license.


That wouldn't really mean much of a difference with what we see today, except that this would have stopped Max from getting a seat. Most compete at F3 and GP2/FR3.5 level, so almost anyone would qualify for an SL.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 18, 2015 8:11 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I totally disagree that points should be given for merely competing in junior Formulas, you want the Champion drivers in F1 not also rans with massive budgets.

The only way to prevent pay drivers from getting into F1 would be to have a grid filled with large manufacturer teams that don't need the money. It would be impossible to implement a license system based around subjectively evaluating talent.

Well that's apparently what they have done with the new system

Nah, they've just ensured that only rich drivers with some talent get a chance. They're effectively closing the door on drivers who struggle with funding

How are drivers struggling with funding going to get noticed by the F1 team's in the first place, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg?

To begin with you have to have the funding to be racing in single seaters

I agree you need some funding, but as has been pointed out the FIA approved route like GP2 is hideously expensive and FR 3.5 was a cheaper option. By closing the door to that path the FIA has effectively excluded less well-funded drivers. The Chiltons of this world will still get their chance (sorry to pick on Max, he's just the most obvious example). It will be harder for less financially endowed drivers to get noticed in the first place.

All it is is a money making scheme for the FIA. It doesn't help F1 in the slightest and it doesn't address the issues raised above. But it can ensure that gifted individuals with less backing may miss out


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 1:47 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
The only way to prevent pay drivers from getting into F1 would be to have a grid filled with large manufacturer teams that don't need the money. It would be impossible to implement a license system based around subjectively evaluating talent.

Well that's apparently what they have done with the new system

Nah, they've just ensured that only rich drivers with some talent get a chance. They're effectively closing the door on drivers who struggle with funding

How are drivers struggling with funding going to get noticed by the F1 team's in the first place, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg?

To begin with you have to have the funding to be racing in single seaters

I agree you need some funding, but as has been pointed out the FIA approved route like GP2 is hideously expensive and FR 3.5 was a cheaper option. By closing the door to that path the FIA has effectively excluded less well-funded drivers. The Chiltons of this world will still get their chance (sorry to pick on Max, he's just the most obvious example). It will be harder for less financially endowed drivers to get noticed in the first place.

All it is is a money making scheme for the FIA. It doesn't help F1 in the slightest and it doesn't address the issues raised above. But it can ensure that gifted individuals with less backing may miss out

Max Chilton only had 20 points, as you need 40 points, these points can be got by competing in F3, GP3 and FR3.5 without even having to compete in GP2.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 7:53 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Well that's apparently what they have done with the new system

Nah, they've just ensured that only rich drivers with some talent get a chance. They're effectively closing the door on drivers who struggle with funding

How are drivers struggling with funding going to get noticed by the F1 team's in the first place, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg?

To begin with you have to have the funding to be racing in single seaters

I agree you need some funding, but as has been pointed out the FIA approved route like GP2 is hideously expensive and FR 3.5 was a cheaper option. By closing the door to that path the FIA has effectively excluded less well-funded drivers. The Chiltons of this world will still get their chance (sorry to pick on Max, he's just the most obvious example). It will be harder for less financially endowed drivers to get noticed in the first place.

All it is is a money making scheme for the FIA. It doesn't help F1 in the slightest and it doesn't address the issues raised above. But it can ensure that gifted individuals with less backing may miss out

Max Chilton only had 20 points, as you need 40 points, these points can be got by competing in F3, GP3 and FR3.5 without even having to compete in GP2.

It doesn't matter. The point is he'll get the opportunity that others won't, whereas before they stood more of a chance


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 19, 2015 8:00 am 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Max Chilton only had 20 points, as you need 40 points, these points can be got by competing in F3, GP3 and FR3.5 without even having to compete in GP2.

It doesn't matter. The point is he'll get the opportunity that others won't, whereas before they stood more of a chance


He would probably have gotten the points in 2013 anyway if he hadn't made the step to F1. He had finished fourth in 2012 and had beaten Calado and Leimer, who won the series in 2013. At least a podium in the final rankings was very much on the table, and even if he didn't improve on his fourth position he would have had the required 40 points.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:17 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Nah, they've just ensured that only rich drivers with some talent get a chance. They're effectively closing the door on drivers who struggle with funding

How are drivers struggling with funding going to get noticed by the F1 team's in the first place, it's a bit like the chicken and the egg?

To begin with you have to have the funding to be racing in single seaters

I agree you need some funding, but as has been pointed out the FIA approved route like GP2 is hideously expensive and FR 3.5 was a cheaper option. By closing the door to that path the FIA has effectively excluded less well-funded drivers. The Chiltons of this world will still get their chance (sorry to pick on Max, he's just the most obvious example). It will be harder for less financially endowed drivers to get noticed in the first place.

All it is is a money making scheme for the FIA. It doesn't help F1 in the slightest and it doesn't address the issues raised above. But it can ensure that gifted individuals with less backing may miss out

Max Chilton only had 20 points, as you need 40 points, these points can be got by competing in F3, GP3 and FR3.5 without even having to compete in GP2.

It doesn't matter. The point is he'll get the opportunity that others won't, whereas before they stood more of a chance

I don't understand this logic why does this give Chilton more of a chance?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 3:19 pm 
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mds wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Max Chilton only had 20 points, as you need 40 points, these points can be got by competing in F3, GP3 and FR3.5 without even having to compete in GP2.

It doesn't matter. The point is he'll get the opportunity that others won't, whereas before they stood more of a chance


He would probably have gotten the points in 2013 anyway if he hadn't made the step to F1. He had finished fourth in 2012 and had beaten Calado and Leimer, who won the series in 2013. At least a podium in the final rankings was very much on the table, and even if he didn't improve on his fourth position he would have had the required 40 points.

That's still not guaranteed and at least Chilton would have had to have got the necessary results to get into F1 rather than just merely buying his way

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:02 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I don't understand this logic why does this give Chilton more of a chance?
GP2 is very expensive. Those without big budgets will have a harder time since they are virtually required to pass through GP2 and compete for seats with those that bring a lot of cash.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:04 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
That's still not guaranteed and at least Chilton would have had to have got the necessary results to get into F1 rather than just merely buying his way


Of course it's not guaranteed but if he can do it once, logic tells me he can do it twice especially if those at the top leave the series.

The point is that this rule will not stop the Chiltons and others like him to join F1.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:13 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't understand this logic why does this give Chilton more of a chance?
GP2 is very expensive. Those without big budgets will have a harder time since they are virtually required to pass through GP2 and compete for seats with those that bring a lot of cash.

Why do you have to pass through GP2 to get into F1 when you can get the necessary points for a F1 super license in FR3.5, GP3 and European F3?

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:34 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I don't understand this logic why does this give Chilton more of a chance?
GP2 is very expensive. Those without big budgets will have a harder time since they are virtually required to pass through GP2 and compete for seats with those that bring a lot of cash.

Why do you have to pass through GP2 to get into F1 when you can get the necessary points for a F1 super license in FR3.5, GP3 and European F3?


To maximize your chances of course. I'm not going to calculate all possibilities but bear in mind that most don't become rookie champs so they spend more than one year in a series. GP2 just is a better bet if you have the money.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 5:45 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
That's still not guaranteed and at least Chilton would have had to have got the necessary results to get into F1 rather than just merely buying his way


Of course it's not guaranteed but if he can do it once, logic tells me he can do it twice especially if those at the top leave the series.

The point is that this rule will not stop the Chiltons and others like him to join F1.

There seems to be certain anti GP2 vibe to all of this, the top drivers move up in the other classes as well making that bit easier the year after for the drivers to come, but in fact what happens moreso is that drivers actually stick around in GP2 which makes it that bit harder to succeed.

Carlos Sainz won the FR3.5 title after the likes of Magnussen, Vandoorne and de la Costa moved on obtaining 30 points on his license. I doubt that Sainz would have even finished top 6 in GP2, 6th place would give him 8 points, if the likes of Chilton can get 40 points in GP2 then he has done well given the competition.

I don't understand the concept that all the real talent in the junior series lies below GP2 and GP2 itself prevents drivers from getting into F1 despite the fact they can still get the necessary points and actually bypass GP2.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 20, 2015 7:22 pm 
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Guys, this is the MAX VERSTAPPEN thread. There is a seperate thread for the general super licence discussions.

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 16, 2015 7:26 pm 
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Hats down to the youngest lad, he drives so maturely. He surely is the future of F1.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 2:34 am 
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Max explaining to Michael how one of his passing moves could have been executed better.





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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 5:24 am 
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http://www.crash.net/f1/news/217679/1/v ... ident.html

Speaking ahead of this weekend's Bahrain Grand Prix and asked if he felt his performance in Shanghai had “put him on the Formula 1 map”, he replied: “Well, first of all, I was really enjoying my race. We didn't have a great qualifying, but still I was very confident that we could do a good race because I think the car and it's race pace is really strong, especially high speed. “I had some good overtakes, I was really enjoying that. It's also every race I'm getting more and more confident in the car. Especially in the first two races you don't want to take too many risks and I decided in China it was time to do some overtakes and take some more risks.”

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 10:50 am 
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ob1kenobi.23 wrote:
Max explaining to Michael how one of his passing moves could have been executed better.





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Is that Jan Lammers in white jacket, looking behind his shoulder?

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 11:07 am 
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Quote:
Is that Jan Lammers in white jacket, looking behind his shoulder?


Looks like it, although I think it's Huub Rothengatter, Jos Verstappen's manager at the time. Also a former Formula 1 driver, by the way.

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 17, 2015 1:03 pm 
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GPG wrote:
Quote:
Is that Jan Lammers in white jacket, looking behind his shoulder?


Looks like it, although I think it's Huub Rothengatter, Jos Verstappen's manager at the time. Also a former Formula 1 driver, by the way.

Yes, it's definitively Huub Rothengatter. I remember the time when he drove for Spirit, Osella and Zakspeed. back in 80's. He was so close to pints at times, but he had really no chance as all those cars were so awful.

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2015 10:49 am 
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Thread has been inactive for a good while, so I thought to bring it back up.
Most of the season has passed and Max has done way more than I would have expected. I saw the potential and talent last year, but I thought he was brought into F1 a bit too soon and, faced with a steep learning curve, would have an erratic debut season with here and there something good to write about.

He has been better though. He has made a few errors, that is true, but overall he's driven very well, has definitely shown flashes of brilliance and has had a number of great drives up until now.
There was a lot of hype surrounding him, there was enormous pressure, but that doesn't seem to have affected him at all and he is showing to be the real deal.

Go Max. I'm a fan.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 6:13 pm 
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I'm surprised at how few responses this thread has.

I said back in August that he is probably the best driver on the grid already

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=14436

Everything that has happened since then has only strengthened my stance.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:11 pm 
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I fully accept that Verstappen looks like an almost inevitable future champion. I would just urge a bit of caution to those saying he is already the best.

He is an extraordinary natural talent, but he hasn't had to do it under real pressure yet. He has been out of the title hunt and able to just go for it. He still makes some major errors and there will be times when his aggression costs him.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:18 pm 
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I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:35 pm 
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I think you have to earn that type of label. You don't just have it given to you based on someone's opinion. People who would call this kid the best on the grid basically expose themselves at this point. And I am a person who has long spoken about the amazing potential Max has but potential does not make you the best. Delivering is what makes you the best. Not possibilities; reality.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:40 pm 
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I'm happy to say that on form Verstappen has been the second best (even over Vettel or Alonso) for the last several races. That's a nice patch of form which he's extended for a good little while but much more is required to put him at the top. We should keep a close eye on if this form continues though as he's the only one who has really sniffed Hamilton's form since the summer break, though still slightly behind in my estimation.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:54 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.

Verstappen hasn't blown Ricciardo away in the same way Ricciardo blew Vettel away in 2014.

What's more, Ricciardo is 44 points ahead of Verstappen in the Driver's Standings. I know that makes people go "Max Verstappen 2017 reliability" - except, Max had 7 retirements this season, Ricciardo has had 5. Unless Verstappen was definitely going to win two of the races he retired from (which he wasn't) Ricciardo would still be ahead on an equal number of finishes.

Am I going to suggest that that means Ricciardo has been the better driver this season? No. Max has been. But he's only edged it, he certainly hasn't made Ricciardo a lame duck even if some would like to paint it that way.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:09 pm 
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BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.


In fact many had him as the driver of the year for 2014 AND 2016, so you'd think over the past 4-5 years he's been the best driver in F1 and I don't really think this is the case at all. It seems people go gaga over drivers who appear to be outperforming in machinery that doesn't head the field. Until Ricciardo can contend for the WDC I'll reserve ultimate judgment.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:16 pm 
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I think we need to see him under the pressure of a title challenge before labelling him as the best driver on the grid.

He's clearly a massive talent. But he's not had a great deal to lose this year.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:21 pm 
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I was a big Senna fan and he did great things in the Lotus but I never put him forward as being the best driver on the grid until he got tested by the best, that being Prost.

3 race wins and some think he's the best driver on the grid, let's see him go up against the best first.

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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:28 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
I was a big Senna fan and he did great things in the Lotus but I never put him forward as being the best driver on the grid until he got tested by the best, that being Prost.

3 race wins and some think he's the best driver on the grid, let's see him go up against the best first.


In hindsight, however, do you then judge Senna to have already been the best driver on the grid before matching up directly with Prost in light of the new information?


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:41 pm 
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Invade wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.


In fact many had him as the driver of the year for 2014 AND 2016, so you'd think over the past 4-5 years he's been the best driver in F1 and I don't really think this is the case at all. It seems people go gaga over drivers who appear to be outperforming in machinery that doesn't head the field. Until Ricciardo can contend for the WDC I'll reserve ultimate judgment.


Exaxtly. People went bonkers for Ricciardo for outscoring Vettel in 2014. But as impressive as that was, it does need to be put in some context.

Vettel was clearly less motivated that season as it was pretty clear from the off that the Mercs were going tonrun away with it.

Ricciardo was in the best car he'd ever driven, Vettel was in the second worst F1 car he had ever driven. I think it would be a lot closer now if both were in Ferrari's for example.


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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 9:47 pm 
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Invade wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I was a big Senna fan and he did great things in the Lotus but I never put him forward as being the best driver on the grid until he got tested by the best, that being Prost.

3 race wins and some think he's the best driver on the grid, let's see him go up against the best first.


In hindsight, however, do you then judge Senna to have already been the best driver on the grid before matching up directly with Prost in light of the new information?

After the evidence presented itself then yes but not before, the best driver he had beat was Elio de Angelis after all, I had respect for the Champions of the sport.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 01, 2017 10:13 am 
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Alienturnedhuman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.

Verstappen hasn't blown Ricciardo away in the same way Ricciardo blew Vettel away in 2014.

What's more, Ricciardo is 44 points ahead of Verstappen in the Driver's Standings. I know that makes people go "Max Verstappen 2017 reliability" - except, Max had 7 retirements this season, Ricciardo has had 5. Unless Verstappen was definitely going to win two of the races he retired from (which he wasn't) Ricciardo would still be ahead on an equal number of finishes.

Am I going to suggest that that means Ricciardo has been the better driver this season? No. Max has been. But he's only edged it, he certainly hasn't made Ricciardo a lame duck even if some would like to paint it that way.
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.

Verstappen hasn't blown Ricciardo away in the same way Ricciardo blew Vettel away in 2014.

What's more, Ricciardo is 44 points ahead of Verstappen in the Driver's Standings. I know that makes people go "Max Verstappen 2017 reliability" - except, Max had 7 retirements this season, Ricciardo has had 5. Unless Verstappen was definitely going to win two of the races he retired from (which he wasn't) Ricciardo would still be ahead on an equal number of finishes.

Am I going to suggest that that means Ricciardo has been the better driver this season? No. Max has been. But he's only edged it, he certainly hasn't made Ricciardo a lame duck even if some would like to paint it that way.


I sort of agree with this post - but I think that it's been pretty even for these team mates - Daniel a bit cleaner - Max taking more risks (and generally getting away with them) and qualifying soooo close (generally within a tenth). Max has had the better starts and some set up gains - the latter took until the pitstop to fix - but that's inevitable and arguably could be pretty even - it just looks worse for Dan when in the wet.

The fact is that in Austin - Dan would have got a podium. In Mexico - at 7th after 5 laps and right behind Kimi R - no guarantee he'd have been able to overtake KR but definitely a podium potential and if he'd taken KR - perhaps even 2nd (I totally accept that accidents/incidents aside, Max would still have won) - but 16th to podium - versus 2nd to podium (with first and third taken out) would arguably have been the drive of the day.

We'll never know - but Max has gone out in races where he was 'normally' not going to score massive points - at best third - whereas Dan has lost multiple podiums that would have decreased Max's points and also had issues at Singapore - where he may have finished on the podium, but could have won without the oil pressure issue.

So I think the drivers on points are close to even now to where they would have been with reliability (perhaps Max a little higher being fair) - but I still think Dan has had the better race craft. How easy would it have been for Vettel to have punctured Verstappen's tyres like he did LH's? It was more racy and much more probable than for the Vettel /LH incident - but centimetres and luck make such a difference


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:51 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
We'll never know - but Max has gone out in races where he was 'normally' not going to score massive points - at best third - whereas Dan has lost multiple podiums that would have decreased Max's points and also had issues at Singapore - where he may have finished on the podium, but could have won without the oil pressure issue.


As far as I know, Max' DNF were in Bahrain, Spain, Canada, Baku, Austria, Belgium and Singapore whereas Daniel's were Australia, Russia, Hungary, USA and Mexico.

We can tell from both lists are that if Daniel would have finished in front only in Hungary and Austin (he started 2 laps down in OZ, was overtaken in lap 1 by Max in Sotchi, and started from the back in Mexico).
Max would have finished higher than Daniel in several occasions too, in Canada, Baku and Singapore given his pace in wet conditions (Spain is obviously impossible to determine, as well as Bahrain given his undercut, he missed his start in Austria and realistically would not have beat Daniel, and in Spa they were too close to call).

So they are quite even on the matter of lost points due to DNFs. Moreover, that bold sentence in your post is wrong. They may be somewhat even on relative point losses, but that doesn't change the fact that Max would have almost certainly won Baku, and (given his pace all weekend and Ricciardo's result with that oil issue) would have a good shot for the win in Singapore.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 4:57 pm 
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F1Oz wrote:
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.

Verstappen hasn't blown Ricciardo away in the same way Ricciardo blew Vettel away in 2014.

What's more, Ricciardo is 44 points ahead of Verstappen in the Driver's Standings. I know that makes people go "Max Verstappen 2017 reliability" - except, Max had 7 retirements this season, Ricciardo has had 5. Unless Verstappen was definitely going to win two of the races he retired from (which he wasn't) Ricciardo would still be ahead on an equal number of finishes.

Am I going to suggest that that means Ricciardo has been the better driver this season? No. Max has been. But he's only edged it, he certainly hasn't made Ricciardo a lame duck even if some would like to paint it that way.
Alienturnedhuman wrote:
BMWSauber84 wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
I think it would be fair to say that he could be the best.


'Could be" is the key part of that statement. The way hype builds around drivers is incredible and often fickle. Daniel Ricciardo was being branded the best driver on the grid by many in 2014. Now in the wake of Verstappen, the honey badger is talked about like he's a busted flush.

Verstappen hasn't blown Ricciardo away in the same way Ricciardo blew Vettel away in 2014.

What's more, Ricciardo is 44 points ahead of Verstappen in the Driver's Standings. I know that makes people go "Max Verstappen 2017 reliability" - except, Max had 7 retirements this season, Ricciardo has had 5. Unless Verstappen was definitely going to win two of the races he retired from (which he wasn't) Ricciardo would still be ahead on an equal number of finishes.

Am I going to suggest that that means Ricciardo has been the better driver this season? No. Max has been. But he's only edged it, he certainly hasn't made Ricciardo a lame duck even if some would like to paint it that way.


I sort of agree with this post - but I think that it's been pretty even for these team mates - Daniel a bit cleaner - Max taking more risks (and generally getting away with them) and qualifying soooo close (generally within a tenth). Max has had the better starts and some set up gains - the latter took until the pitstop to fix - but that's inevitable and arguably could be pretty even - it just looks worse for Dan when in the wet.

The fact is that in Austin - Dan would have got a podium. In Mexico - at 7th after 5 laps and right behind Kimi R - no guarantee he'd have been able to overtake KR but definitely a podium potential and if he'd taken KR - perhaps even 2nd (I totally accept that accidents/incidents aside, Max would still have won) - but 16th to podium - versus 2nd to podium (with first and third taken out) would arguably have been the drive of the day.

We'll never know - but Max has gone out in races where he was 'normally' not going to score massive points - at best third - whereas Dan has lost multiple podiums that would have decreased Max's points and also had issues at Singapore - where he may have finished on the podium, but could have won without the oil pressure issue.

So I think the drivers on points are close to even now to where they would have been with reliability (perhaps Max a little higher being fair) - but I still think Dan has had the better race craft. How easy would it have been for Vettel to have punctured Verstappen's tyres like he did LH's? It was more racy and much more probable than for the Vettel /LH incident - but centimetres and luck make such a difference


BIB - Really? Had he kept going he would have won Baku and certainly podium, possibly victory in Singapore. I don't think Ricciardo has lost any victories because of retirements. Maybe Hungary was possible?


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:06 pm 
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I agree that he does need to prove himself in a title fight, but it's not like he's had an opportunity at a WDC before and blew it. He just hasn't been tested yet.

His raw speed is immense. Ricciardo is no slough, but Max has made him look second class whenever his car actually works, in both qualifying and in the race. His starts are usually very good, his racecraft is incredible, his tyre and race management is excellent, he's a master in the rain, and contrary to popular belief, he very rarely makes any mistakes.

I'm actually confident that he's already the best driver on the grid. I called it back in August and nobody agreed. Now a few months later, opinions are starting to swing. I'll bump this thread again in 2018 with a big "told you so". ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 02, 2017 5:19 pm 
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KingVoid wrote:
I agree that he does need to prove himself in a title fight, but it's not like he's had an opportunity at a WDC before and blew it. He just hasn't been tested yet.

His raw speed is immense. Ricciardo is no slough, but Max has made him look second class whenever his car actually works, in both qualifying and in the race. His starts are usually very good, his racecraft is incredible, his tyre and race management is excellent, he's a master in the rain, and contrary to popular belief, he very rarely makes any mistakes.

I'm actually confident that he's already the best driver on the grid. I called it back in August and nobody agreed. Now a few months later, opinions are starting to swing. I'll bump this thread again in 2018 with a big "told you so". ;)


I was stunned by his driving last year in Brazil. Since then, I've been somewhat frustrated to read so many negative comments about his driving, somewhat unjustified in my opinion. If both Redbull and Renault keep progressing like they are actually doing, Verstappen's WDC title fight is just around the corner.

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