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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:34 am 
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Ladies and jellybeans, it's with great pain that I show you the following picture. I am sorry for your united loss.

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s: @unpocoloca/@Optimaximal on Twitter.

Title edited so it is clearer on the forum main page that there is a thread about this - Mod Aqua

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:37 am 
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Just seen it on twitter, their making it so easy for drivers...!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:46 am 
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errrrgh, what!


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:49 am 
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This is ridiculous. They might as well race on a massive airfield with two white lines to determine the track. Why do they want to ruin the great corners in F1?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:53 am 
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Why Curva Parabolica? Wtf?! Geeeezzz! Bernie Dictatorstone.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:53 am 
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:09 am 
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F1 is now officially dead

Sorry to say it. It is not the same challenge as it was 10 years ago.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:23 am 
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Is that Parabolica, or is it Lesmo?


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:31 am 
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Rekonizakilla wrote:
Is that Parabolica, or is it Lesmo?


Definitely Parabolica.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:42 am 
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:-(( :-(( :-(( :-(( :-(( :-(( :-(( :-(( :-(( :-((
:evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil: :evil:
:x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x :x

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:43 am 
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F1Krof wrote:
Rekonizakilla wrote:
Is that Parabolica, or is it Lesmo?


Definitely Parabolica.


Oh yeah. My bad.

Just doesn't look right .


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:47 am 
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Am I the only one who doesn't really blame them? There have been some massive shunts at Parabolica over the years and having Tarmac there should make it a bit safer even if the challenge has relished slightly. It might actually encourage drivers to push it even more.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:04 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't really blame them? There have been some massive shunts at Parabolica over the years and having Tarmac there should make it a bit safer even if the challenge has relished slightly. It might actually encourage drivers to push it even more.


The likelyhood is that, when they do have shunts into that corner, they won't be able to use the brakes well. The Tarmac road would barely slow them down, while gravel traps slow them an awful lot down.

It may encourage drivers to push more, but where is the risk? IMO, drivers should have to take risks when they push too hard. When they carry too much speed, they can use the run-off road. Where's the racing in that? I thought we wanted drivers to gamble as much as they can, getting every inch out of the race track, being so close to driving the car into the gravel. This doesn't give me the same feeling - at all.

Seriously, though. I'm so tiddled off about this right now.

Edit: nice swear filters!

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:12 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't really blame them? There have been some massive shunts at Parabolica over the years and having Tarmac there should make it a bit safer even if the challenge has relished slightly. It might actually encourage drivers to push it even more.


The likelyhood is that, when they do have shunts into that corner, they won't be able to use the brakes well. The Tarmac road would barely slow them down, while gravel traps slow them an awful lot down.

It may encourage drivers to push more, but where is the risk? IMO, drivers should have to take risks when they push too hard. When they carry too much speed, they can use the run-off road. Where's the racing in that? I thought we wanted drivers to gamble as much as they can, getting every inch out of the race track, being so close to driving the car into the gravel. This doesn't give me the same feeling - at all.

Seriously, though. I'm so tiddled off about this right now.

Edit: nice swear filters!

Quite often when they went off into the gravel they'd be spat back out onto the track though, which is horrendously dangerous. Tarmac gives you more control if you spin off in general. If you have a brake failure then nothing is really going to slow the car down before impact, at least on tarmac the driver still has some kind of control of the car. When the brakes do work then the driver is better able to slow the car down before impact on tarmac.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:23 am 
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F1 is a dangerous sport bring back the gravel


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:35 am 
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Clarky wrote:
F1 is a dangerous sport bring back the gravel

We are supposed to be making it a safer sport not a more dangerous one.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:40 am 
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Can it not be possible to have the best of both worlds?

Leave a car's width of gravel just outside the corner to discourage drivers from simply driving off the circuit, then have asphalt beyond that for stopping cars that are genuinely out of control.


Last edited by JohnnyGuitar on Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:40 am 
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Laura23 wrote:
Clarky wrote:
F1 is a dangerous sport bring back the gravel

We are supposed to be making it a safer sport not a more dangerous one.

Leaving it as it was is not making it more dangerous is it, its leaving it the same.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:41 am 
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Disappointing and a bit sad.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:53 am 
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JohnnyGuitar wrote:
Can it not be possible to have the best of both worlds?

Leave a car's width of gravel just outside the corner to discourage drivers from simply driving off the circuit, then have asphalt beyond that for stopping cars that are genuinely out of control.


That would be interesting. I'd still prefer all gavel, but certainly would choose a car-lengths gravel and then tarmac over all run off road. It kind of looks like that in the picture, but I doubt they're doing that.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Shame, but look at the positives...

A mistake / partial car failure does not necessarily have to be a race-ender for the driver - no chance of getting beached. This also makes car recovery (in the event of a terminal problem) better, minimising yellow-flag periods. In addition, any car rejoining the circuit still loses time (albeit not necessarily as much) so no advantage ganied(!) and does not drag / spit a load of debris onto the circuit where it may affect others.
Also, reduced liklihood of a car turning over through a piece bogging down into gravel (not that this appears to be a high risk at present anyway).

Presumably it is in the interests of safety, and the powers-that-be do actually know what they are doing. Perhaps the usurface is such that it effectively slows the car down somewhat, like Paul Ricard, so there is a tangible disadvantage to 'going off.'

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:01 pm 
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Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:09 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Am I the only one who doesn't really blame them? There have been some massive shunts at Parabolica over the years and having Tarmac there should make it a bit safer even if the challenge has relished slightly. It might actually encourage drivers to push it even more.


The likelyhood is that, when they do have shunts into that corner, they won't be able to use the brakes well. The Tarmac road would barely slow them down, while gravel traps slow them an awful lot down.

It may encourage drivers to push more, but where is the risk? IMO, drivers should have to take risks when they push too hard. When they carry too much speed, they can use the run-off road. Where's the racing in that? I thought we wanted drivers to gamble as much as they can, getting every inch out of the race track, being so close to driving the car into the gravel. This doesn't give me the same feeling - at all.

Seriously, though. I'm so tiddled off about this right now.

Edit: nice swear filters!

Quite often when they went off into the gravel they'd be spat back out onto the track though, which is horrendously dangerous. Tarmac gives you more control if you spin off in general. If you have a brake failure then nothing is really going to slow the car down before impact, at least on tarmac the driver still has some kind of control of the car. When the brakes do work then the driver is better able to slow the car down before impact on tarmac.



Just a few genuine questions bbecause I honestly don't recall. Wgat big shunts have we seen at that cirner in the last 20 years and when have cars been spat back on to the race track by gravel?

I have been saying for years put a 3 meter wide strip of gravel then hace the tarmac driver lose a lot of time but still stay in the race.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:29 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...

You sound like a petulant child if I'm going to be brutally honest. There's been motorcycle racing at Monza for over 60 years. They have as much right to race there as F1 does and they have as much right to better safety as well.

mikeyg123 wrote:


Just a few genuine questions bbecause I honestly don't recall. Wgat big shunts have we seen at that cirner in the last 20 years and when have cars been spat back on to the race track by gravel?

I have been saying for years put a 3 meter wide strip of gravel then hace the tarmac driver lose a lot of time but still stay in the race.

I've seen a few in other racing series that could have been horrendous.

But your second point seems to be exactly what they are doing and so I don't see the big fuss surrounding it.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:55 pm 
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So I guess when a car gets all four wheels over the line it will be investigated.
Like stated above. Its getting to the point of why not race on a massive air field with painted lines.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 12:57 pm 
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Honestly, this doesn't bother me too much if the picture shows what I think it is showing.

There is gravel on the outside for a gap of 1-2 car widths maybe? Driver's going wide onto that will still have a bad time but anyone going straight on at full speed will still have some tarmac to try to sort their car out. Assuming I have understood the above photo correctly and that it does show a gap. I do wonder though, at the transition back from gravel to tarmac is that not going to be an issue? I'd be rather nervous is I approached that side on for fear of flipping the car. I suppose it depends how it is all profiled too, but I am assuming the FIA and people at Monza know what they are doing.

A car goes off, it can either recover (while still losing some time) or can be recovered by marshals easier (I assume gravel is more difficult than tarmac even if only marginally).

Visually it does look unappealing, but I'm not sure I'd really consider this bad news. I understand the feeling of disliking gravel traps being replaced by tarmac and the lack of punishment but I'd rather the sport be as safe as reasonably practicable.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:01 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...


I have the same problem with Silverstone. A perfectly good motorbike track ruined when F1 decided to return once Donington fell through. ;)


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:15 pm 
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mac_d wrote:
Honestly, this doesn't bother me too much if the picture shows what I think it is showing.

There is gravel on the outside for a gap of 1-2 car widths maybe? Driver's going wide onto that will still have a bad time but anyone going straight on at full speed will still have some tarmac to try to sort their car out. Assuming I have understood the above photo correctly and that it does show a gap. I do wonder though, at the transition back from gravel to tarmac is that not going to be an issue? I'd be rather nervous is I approached that side on for fear of flipping the car. I suppose it depends how it is all profiled too, but I am assuming the FIA and people at Monza know what they are doing.

A car goes off, it can either recover (while still losing some time) or can be recovered by marshals easier (I assume gravel is more difficult than tarmac even if only marginally).

Visually it does look unappealing, but I'm not sure I'd really consider this bad news. I understand the feeling of disliking gravel traps being replaced by tarmac and the lack of punishment but I'd rather the sport be as safe as reasonably practicable.

It's pretty much the best of both worlds, far less likely to flip the car but you'll still get plenty dirt on the tyres to pay for your mistake. Even if a car does flip on the strip of gravel it'll skid onto tarmac and won't bog itself down, much easier to get the driver out on tarmac.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:29 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...

You sound like a petulant child if I'm going to be brutally honest. There's been motorcycle racing at Monza for over 60 years. They have as much right to race there as F1 does and they have as much right to better safety as well.

mikeyg123 wrote:


Just a few genuine questions bbecause I honestly don't recall. Wgat big shunts have we seen at that cirner in the last 20 years and when have cars been spat back on to the race track by gravel?

I have been saying for years put a 3 meter wide strip of gravel then hace the tarmac driver lose a lot of time but still stay in the race.

I've seen a few in other racing series that could have been horrendous.

But your second point seems to be exactly what they are doing and so I don't see the big fuss surrounding it.


Well, I did say I was on a bit of a rant there. It's just that we shouldn't take away one of the greatest F1 tracks corners because of a motorbike event. It's one of the few iconic corners left in F1. There's been enough ruined so far.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:46 pm 
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I'm going to C&P something I saw on Reddit that I agree with.

Quote:
This was done to allow recovery vehicles to get the cars out quickly meaning we don't have to deal with long safety cars.
Anybody who goes off at that point has had a catastrophic failure like Webber in 2011 and is out of the race anyway.
They have only changed the entrance run off not the exit where you can easily recover cars.
Good change IMO


How many times do we see someone making a mistake there? If it was the Lesmos I'd agree it's stupid.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:47 pm 
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OMFG. The legendary parabolica, mutilated!!!!!!! This is ridiculous... :(


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:53 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...

You sound like a petulant child if I'm going to be brutally honest. There's been motorcycle racing at Monza for over 60 years. They have as much right to race there as F1 does and they have as much right to better safety as well.

mikeyg123 wrote:


Just a few genuine questions bbecause I honestly don't recall. Wgat big shunts have we seen at that cirner in the last 20 years and when have cars been spat back on to the race track by gravel?

I have been saying for years put a 3 meter wide strip of gravel then hace the tarmac driver lose a lot of time but still stay in the race.

I've seen a few in other racing series that could have been horrendous.

But your second point seems to be exactly what they are doing and so I don't see the big fuss surrounding it.


Well, I did say I was on a bit of a rant there. It's just that we shouldn't take away one of the greatest F1 tracks corners because of a motorbike event. It's one of the few iconic corners left in F1. There's been enough ruined so far.

It's not jet for the bikes, It's for everyone. The corner is now a safer place to race and thats what is needed. F1 is not the only motorsport to visit Monza and that measn Monza shouldn't only cater for F1 when it comes to the safety of other series.

We live in 2014, not 1954.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 1:58 pm 
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Isn't there still some sand left between run off and track?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:05 pm 
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Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...

You sound like a petulant child if I'm going to be brutally honest. There's been motorcycle racing at Monza for over 60 years. They have as much right to race there as F1 does and they have as much right to better safety as well.

mikeyg123 wrote:


Just a few genuine questions bbecause I honestly don't recall. Wgat big shunts have we seen at that cirner in the last 20 years and when have cars been spat back on to the race track by gravel?

I have been saying for years put a 3 meter wide strip of gravel then hace the tarmac driver lose a lot of time but still stay in the race.

I've seen a few in other racing series that could have been horrendous.

But your second point seems to be exactly what they are doing and so I don't see the big fuss surrounding it.


Well, I did say I was on a bit of a rant there. It's just that we shouldn't take away one of the greatest F1 tracks corners because of a motorbike event. It's one of the few iconic corners left in F1. There's been enough ruined so far.

It's not jet for the bikes, It's for everyone. The corner is now a safer place to race and thats what is needed. F1 is not the only motorsport to visit Monza and that measn Monza shouldn't only cater for F1 when it comes to the safety of other series.

We live in 2014, not 1954.


Yes, but no one will have the respect we used to have about F1 drivers and other racing drivers. We don't get the same feel for that anymore. I know, yeah, it shouldn't be fatally dangerous, but it shouldn't be cushion safe either. Racing should nit only be about who is most efficient of getting everything out of the track, it should also be about who is the bravest to push right to the edge of the limit.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:06 pm 
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AngusWolfe wrote:
I'm going to C&P something I saw on Reddit that I agree with.

Quote:
This was done to allow recovery vehicles to get the cars out quickly meaning we don't have to deal with long safety cars.
Anybody who goes off at that point has had a catastrophic failure like Webber in 2011 and is out of the race anyway.
They have only changed the entrance run off not the exit where you can easily recover cars.
Good change IMO


How many times do we see someone making a mistake there? If it was the Lesmos I'd agree it's stupid.


So, if I read this correctly, they still have grass/gravel at the edge of the track?

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Laura23 wrote:
Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
Apparently, this is due to motorbike racing and the safety concerns of having gravel traps. I mean, go find another circuit, not Formula 1's most iconic racing tracks.

I've just realised I'm going on a rant right now...

You sound like a petulant child if I'm going to be brutally honest. There's been motorcycle racing at Monza for over 60 years. They have as much right to race there as F1 does and they have as much right to better safety as well.

mikeyg123 wrote:


Just a few genuine questions bbecause I honestly don't recall. Wgat big shunts have we seen at that cirner in the last 20 years and when have cars been spat back on to the race track by gravel?

I have been saying for years put a 3 meter wide strip of gravel then hace the tarmac driver lose a lot of time but still stay in the race.

I've seen a few in other racing series that could have been horrendous.

But your second point seems to be exactly what they are doing and so I don't see the big fuss surrounding it.


Well, I did say I was on a bit of a rant there. It's just that we shouldn't take away one of the greatest F1 tracks corners because of a motorbike event. It's one of the few iconic corners left in F1. There's been enough ruined so far.

It's not jet for the bikes, It's for everyone. The corner is now a safer place to race and thats what is needed. F1 is not the only motorsport to visit Monza and that measn Monza shouldn't only cater for F1 when it comes to the safety of other series.

We live in 2014, not 1954.


Yes, but no one will have the respect we used to have about F1 drivers and other racing drivers. We don't get the same feel for that anymore. I know, yeah, it shouldn't be fatally dangerous, but it shouldn't be cushion safe either. Racing should nit only be about who is most efficient of getting everything out of the track, it should also be about who is the bravest to push right to the edge of the limit.

The drivers will still have to have balls, they just won't have to worry about their car flipping like crazy if they do get it wrong and risk getting their head ripped off. I don't see anything wrong with what they've done.

All I see are fans moaning at absolutely everything these days. People wanted change, they got change and they then decided they wanted everything back the way it was. The world doesn't work like that. Either move with the times or stop asking for things to change.

We have one of the best seasons of racing we've had in years yet at every turn someone is complaining about something. It's sad.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 2:09 pm 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
AngusWolfe wrote:
I'm going to C&P something I saw on Reddit that I agree with.

Quote:
This was done to allow recovery vehicles to get the cars out quickly meaning we don't have to deal with long safety cars.
Anybody who goes off at that point has had a catastrophic failure like Webber in 2011 and is out of the race anyway.
They have only changed the entrance run off not the exit where you can easily recover cars.
Good change IMO


How many times do we see someone making a mistake there? If it was the Lesmos I'd agree it's stupid.


So, if I read this correctly, they still have grass/gravel at the edge of the track?

As far as I am aware, yes.

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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:38 pm 
If someone has their knickers in a knot because installing tarmac instead of gravel at Parabolica is messing with an iconic and historic track, where have they been the last few decades? Monza is barely recognizable compared to the past, where such great corners as Curve Grande and Ascari separated the men from the boys. And it's not that the actual corner has been altered, the racing track itself is unaltered, they just messed with outside the track boundaries. How would you feel if they installed a chicane just before Parabolica?

Asphalt is safer than gravel, period. Holy heck, we just saw Massa skidding on his lid just a few weeks ago, imagine if that has been gravel? When any car enters gravel, and the more the speed the higher the risk, of catching and flipping.

Formula One, and in general racing, can never be safe enough. When we see such alterations it does break with the past, but it also signals that such constant tweaks are a sign that safety is still marching forward. On those grounds, I support it. Anyone familiar with Monaz and Parabolica know that many drivers have died at that corner. We don't need any more.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:40 pm 
If that is a car widths of gravel before the tarmac, I would like to see that introduced elsewhere. Run wide and you are losing 2-3 seconds at least and filling the radiators with stones and maybe damaging the floor.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 07, 2014 3:42 pm 
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Joined: Wed Feb 26, 2014 9:22 pm
Posts: 204
This is sad news :(

I have to ask, in a situation where breaks fail (Like Lewis did in Germany) Wouldnt gravel be a better and safer option?

I like the idea of a strip of gravel trap with tarmac behind to work as a deterant... but we have to think safety first i guess :(

_________________
2015 Predictions
1) Williams to win a Race (probably at the hands of Bottas)
2) Jenson Button to beat Fernando Alonso... but only just
3) McLaren to score at least 1 point... but to spend the season fighting with Manor-


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