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Most wins
Vettel, 39 wins, age 27 53%  53%  [ 112 ]
Alonso, 32 wins, age 33 2%  2%  [ 5 ]
Hamilton, 27 wins, age 29 44%  44%  [ 93 ]
Total votes : 210
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:36 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
pokerman wrote:
As you may know I keep my own records. :)

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

I don't have all my data to hand at the moment but I still managed to find some bits and bobs.

Peak Gap: Alonso 0.37s, Vettel 0.29s, Diff 0.08s
Avg Gap: Alonso 0.26s, Vettel 0.2s, Diff 0.06s
Low Gap: Alonso 0.17s, Vettel 0.1s, Diff 0.07s

Then like I posted before with the Kimi comparisons the average difference had Alonso 0.08s up on Vettel.

It's interesting how the both of them had a poorish qualifying year, Alonso in 2013 and Vettel in 2016 when the head to heads were quite close but the average gap itself still reasonable higher than you would expect so when they were quicker it was a much bigger gap so often they were being edged out.

So I keep getting consistent results of Alonso being at the least 0.06s quicker than Vettel.

You do persist on mismatching datasets, though. The average gap in their first (and only, for Alonso) year together was very close, within 0.04s, which is as near to nothing as makes no odds. Their stats were virtually identical

I don't cherry pick datasets if that's what you mean, you use everything, the more, the better, anyway my latest post was covering 4 years of Alonso against Massa in comparison to 3 years of Vettel against Kimi with the understanding that Kimi and Massa were very evenly matched when they were teammates.

No, I mean in order to get an accurate comparison you need to use stats which are as closely aligned as possible. The stats you had show fairly wide variances between years for one driver, so it's unfair to compare them against a single year for another. Take the same sample for both and you'll have the best picture possible, which in this case means taking the first (and, in Alonso's case, only) year as team mates with Kimi and comparing them. And when you do that, you get almost identical stats


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 3:47 pm 
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
Zoue wrote:
lamo wrote:
He won in Australia in the dominant Ferrari, as soon as the race finished he got onto the radio and complained about the car and how uncomfortable it was and they needed to fix the car. He spent the entire pre season testing and practise days being around 0.3 slower than Massa. This pattern continued for the first 7 races. He got lucky, Massa blew up in qualifying...

...- Australia, he started last as he blew up in qualifying (Massa at this part of the year was much quicker than Kimi, Massa would have won Australia)

This isn't entirely accurate, either. Kimi was faster in final practice at the Australian Grand Prix and also in the first qualifying session. Massa then whacked a curb coming out of the pits in 2nd qualifying, which damaged the car, after which they changed his engine. Not qualifying was not down to his engine blowing up. There isn't any reason to believe that Massa would definitely have been quicker.


The feeling going into the race was that it was Massa's to lose and that Kimi had been struggling. Something that Kimi confirmed on the radio and in the Press conference, he was struggling and it made an odd post race win interviews, because Kimi wasn't happy.

Kimi's qualifying pace was poor at that part of the year. He was never Massa's match over 1 lap but the early season Massa out qualified him in 6 of the other 7 races until Silverstone. My money would have been on Massa. But again, I didn't include this one in the numbers either.

I did not realise Massa made an error in Australia, but my overall point is about speed. Massa was indeed error prone but my discussion is about pace and ultimately my point is the same - Kimi was never quicker than Massa over any of the seasons and in the dry was was slower, all be it marginally.

But on the day, when it counts, Kimi was quicker than Massa, both in final practice and in qualifying. You write as though it's a slam dunk that Massa would have been quicker, but that's simply not the case. And it was Massa's own error which put him out. The way you write changes the impression because you make it out as though Kimi was fortunate, but in reality Massa was never quicker than him in final practice, qualifying or the race. Which belies the claim that Kimi was never quicker. It's just not true. And in a post about speed, it's not correct to claim that Massa was quicker in Australia when that was never the case.

Now I'm not saying that Massa was never quicker than Kimi throughout the year, but I've already managed to find several inaccuracies from one post, all to Kimi's detriment, which just makes it look as though you're being creative with the facts in order to paint a false picture. If you would try to be more objective then you have some reasonable points, but the way you write detracts from them


Re: Australia-
I didn't write it as a slam dunk other wise I would have added it to the numbers. Not enough information to decide, but given Kimi's lack of 1 lap speed generally and especially in the early season its hard to look past a Massa pole in Australia.

Re: Malaysia-
Including that race was just to show, even when Kimi did beat Massa at least once it involved Massa beating himself. Remember this post in it's context, to highlight how misleading Dolomites head to head data was.

I willing to accept there isn't enough data so no solid conclusion on that one. What I saw was Kimi get beat by 0.450. I saw his team mate all over Hamilton and clearly able to overtake. Then I saw Kimi in the same position and unable to even make an attempt.


These are Kimi's aheads in the head to head -

1) Australia.
Massa starts P16 after damaging his car in qualifying

2) Malaysia.
Massa out qualifies Kimi by 0.450, Massa runs off when ahead and gets stuck behind a BMW

3) France.
Massa out qualifies Kimi by 0.200, they have a race long battle in which Kimi emerges from his stop side by side with Massa and takes the lead and wins. Although Massa blames traffic on his out lap for losing this race.

4) Silverstone
Race 8 and Kimi finally arrives. Out qualifies Massa by 0.150 and although Massa has a mechanical issue on the grid I don't think he was getting near Kimi on that day. Silverstone is Kimi's 2nd best track behind Spa and he showed up

5) Hungary
Massa gets traffic on his first run and then Ferrari don't fuel the car enough for the second one and he runs out of fuel and starts P16 in Hungary of all places. Kimi comes 2nd but managed to get out qualified by a BMW.

6) Spa
Although Massa out qualified him (fuel adjusted) he didn't have an answer for Kimi's race pace. Kimi's best drive of the year on his best track.

7) Japan
Wet race, Massa spins off a few times and is very poor. Kimi puts in a solid drive

8) China
Wet race, Kimi puts in another solid drive. Massa again no where and had another spin. Credit to Kimi though, he actually out qualified Massa in the dry. Something he also did in 2008 against form for that year.

9) Brazil
Ferrari orchestrate a Kimi win to secure the title. Brazil is a very strong Massa track and he out qualified Kimi by 0.4.

In terms of his speed, the only stand outs in that for me are Silverstone (even then we give him benefit of the doubt as maybe Massa would have been as quick) and Spa. These are historically his best two tracks throughout his career.

His two wet drives in China and Japan were also great drives but it is very hard to tell how good the Ferrari was in the wet and how to rate Kimi's wet performances because Massa was so awful in the wet and historically Kimi wasn't strong in the wet either. Certainly a step down from Hamilton and Alonso. But I do not dispute, Kimi was faster than Massa in the wet, no doubt.

But I re-affirm, my point is that Kimi was no faster than Massa. That is it. I am just blowing the "Kimi was quicker than Massa in 2007" myth that has started to surface now enough time has passed for people to forget. Even respectable and objective posters like Dolomite are wrong on it. I welcome an interpretation that show's Kimi as being quicker than Massa in 2007 because I don't think its possible to cook the numbers into that no matter how one tried.


Last edited by lamo on Thu Mar 22, 2018 6:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:01 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
pokerman wrote:


As you may know I keep my own records. :)

2014: Alonso > Kimi 0.28s (11-2) 85%

2015: Vettel > Kimi 0.24s (11-2)
2016: Vettel > Kimi 0.1s (10-9)
2017: Vettel > Kimi 0.29s (15-3)

Avg: Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

Curiously Vettel's 3 year record against Kimi is very similar to Bottas' 3 year record against Massa and in regards to Massa and Kimi I have them close to equal during their Ferrari years.


Interesting, thank you very much. So, Alonso had a bigger advantage over Räikkönen than Vettel.

About the last paragraph, so do you think that Bottas and Vettel are about equally strong?

so do you think Bottas and Alonso or more or less equal?

Unfortunately I've only just taking my computer in for repair which has all my data.

Basically it's Alonso > Vettel > Bottas with the gap to Alonso and Bottas being over 1 tenth.


Or it's Alonso > Vettel = Bottas? According to your data, I mean.

No I have my computer back now so I will do the Bottas against Vettel comparison.

I already showed Vettel against Kimi in detail the result being:-
Vettel > Kimi 0.2s (36-14) 72%

2014: Bottas > Massa 0.16s (9-4)
2015: Bottas > Massa 0.07s (10-5)
2016: Bottas > Massa 0.2s (17-3)
Avg: Bottas > Massa 0.15s (36-12) 75%

Vettel > Bottas 0.05s

Next as a comparitor:-

2010: Alonso > Massa 0.23s (12-3)
2011: Alonso > Massa 0.37s (16-2)
2012: Alonso > Massa 0.26s (14-4)
2013: Alonso > Massa 0.17s (7-5)
Avg: Alonso > Massa 0.27s (49-14) 78%

Alonso > Bottas 0.12s
Alonso > Vettel 0.07s

Using Massa and Kimi as a constant with them being so evenly matched when they were teammates.

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Last edited by pokerman on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:06 pm 
Isn't Massa quicker than Kimi if you are looking at qualifying data only? I know they were pretty equal overall as drivers but Massa was a better qualifying and Kimi had the edge in race trim which he could couldn't always exert as he qualified so low (2008 mainly)


Last edited by lamo on Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 4:08 pm 
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Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Zoue wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I remember how Alonso dominated Massa 17-3 in qualifying in 2012, and then only beat him 11-8 in 2013. His average advantage reduced from 0.3 seconds to less than 0.1 seconds.

I reckon that 2016 was an off-year for Vettel, even if that sounds like a bad excuse.

In 2015 and 2017, he dominated Raikkonen like how Alonso would typically dominate Massa.

I don't have all my data to hand at the moment but I still managed to find some bits and bobs.

Peak Gap: Alonso 0.37s, Vettel 0.29s, Diff 0.08s
Avg Gap: Alonso 0.26s, Vettel 0.2s, Diff 0.06s
Low Gap: Alonso 0.17s, Vettel 0.1s, Diff 0.07s

Then like I posted before with the Kimi comparisons the average difference had Alonso 0.08s up on Vettel.

It's interesting how the both of them had a poorish qualifying year, Alonso in 2013 and Vettel in 2016 when the head to heads were quite close but the average gap itself still reasonable higher than you would expect so when they were quicker it was a much bigger gap so often they were being edged out.

So I keep getting consistent results of Alonso being at the least 0.06s quicker than Vettel.

You do persist on mismatching datasets, though. The average gap in their first (and only, for Alonso) year together was very close, within 0.04s, which is as near to nothing as makes no odds. Their stats were virtually identical

I don't cherry pick datasets if that's what you mean, you use everything, the more, the better, anyway my latest post was covering 4 years of Alonso against Massa in comparison to 3 years of Vettel against Kimi with the understanding that Kimi and Massa were very evenly matched when they were teammates.

No, I mean in order to get an accurate comparison you need to use stats which are as closely aligned as possible. The stats you had show fairly wide variances between years for one driver, so it's unfair to compare them against a single year for another. Take the same sample for both and you'll have the best picture possible, which in this case means taking the first (and, in Alonso's case, only) year as team mates with Kimi and comparing them. And when you do that, you get almost identical stats

Your just using one single year when there are numbers of years to look at, I'm basically looking at career averages rather then highlighting individual years which is what you are doing.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 23, 2018 12:56 am 
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lamo wrote:
Isn't Massa quicker than Kimi if you are looking at qualifying data only? I know they were pretty equal overall as drivers but Massa was a better qualifying and Kimi had the edge in race trim which he could couldn't always exert as he qualified so low (2008 mainly)

I believe there was about 0.02s difference but I can't remember in who's favour, this was fuel corrected qualifying were I used a rule that 1 lap = 0.1s because when I started doing it I didn't know the exact fuel corrected figures track to track.

This needs redoing even though I don't believe it will make a big difference but even so needs doing for greater accuracy.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:43 am 
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I just had another look at the qualifying battle between Vet and Ric in 2014.

Contrary to popular belief, Vettel wasn’t that bad in qualifying in 2014. Excluding the qualifying sessions when one driver had was hampered (Australia, Spain, Britain & USA) Ricciardo won the qualifying battle 9-6 with an average advantage of 0.060s.

The real gulf in class between them appeared on Sunday. Ricciardo’s race pace was on another planet.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:56 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
I just had another look at the qualifying battle between Vet and Ric in 2014.

Contrary to popular belief, Vettel wasn’t that bad in qualifying in 2014. Excluding the qualifying sessions when one driver had was hampered (Australia, Spain, Britain & USA) Ricciardo won the qualifying battle 9-6 with an average advantage of 0.060s.

The real gulf in class between them appeared on Sunday. Ricciardo’s race pace was on another planet.

I had it as

Ricciardo > Vettel 0.17s (9-4)

I would be guessing that wet qualifying was also used, Vettel was clearly better than Ricciardo in the wet but then again so has everyone of Ricciardo's teammates.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:12 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I just had another look at the qualifying battle between Vet and Ric in 2014.

Contrary to popular belief, Vettel wasn’t that bad in qualifying in 2014. Excluding the qualifying sessions when one driver had was hampered (Australia, Spain, Britain & USA) Ricciardo won the qualifying battle 9-6 with an average advantage of 0.060s.

The real gulf in class between them appeared on Sunday. Ricciardo’s race pace was on another planet.

I had it as

Ricciardo > Vettel 0.17s (9-4)

I would be guessing that wet qualifying was also used, Vettel was clearly better than Ricciardo in the wet but then again so has everyone of Ricciardo's teammates.

Why would you exclude wet qualifying from your results?


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:35 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
I just had another look at the qualifying battle between Vet and Ric in 2014.

Contrary to popular belief, Vettel wasn’t that bad in qualifying in 2014. Excluding the qualifying sessions when one driver had was hampered (Australia, Spain, Britain & USA) Ricciardo won the qualifying battle 9-6 with an average advantage of 0.060s.

The real gulf in class between them appeared on Sunday. Ricciardo’s race pace was on another planet.

I had it as

Ricciardo > Vettel 0.17s (9-4)

I would be guessing that wet qualifying was also used, Vettel was clearly better than Ricciardo in the wet but then again so has everyone of Ricciardo's teammates.

Why would you exclude wet qualifying from your results?

One thing is inconsistent track conditions plus the massive gaps you sometimes get which can make all the dry results some what irrelevant, Hamilton for instance out qualified Bottas by 2 seconds in Monza last season.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 2:43 pm 
KingVoid wrote:
I just had another look at the qualifying battle between Vet and Ric in 2014.

Contrary to popular belief, Vettel wasn’t that bad in qualifying in 2014. Excluding the qualifying sessions when one driver had was hampered (Australia, Spain, Britain & USA) Ricciardo won the qualifying battle 9-6 with an average advantage of 0.060s.

The real gulf in class between them appeared on Sunday. Ricciardo’s race pace was on another planet.


That is the wet drives skewing it in Vettels favour. Vetttel beat Ricciardo 3-0 in the Wet but lost 9-3 in the dry i think. In the wet the margins can be huge and pull the average closer. That is why in nearly all head to head analysis the wet drives are discounted for the purpose of averages. For example Hamilton out qualified Bottas by 2.5 seconds in Monza last year in the wet, massively skews the data.

Also Vergne was better than Ricciardo in the wet, as was Vettel and Max. Kvyat got a lot closer once it was wet to almost being his equal. Ricciardo is average in the wet.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 3:38 pm 
I found why the data is skewed massively by the wet. Vettel out qualified Ricciardo by 3.3 seconds at Silverstone on that mixed track. The guys that didn't abort done well that day. Rosberg out qualified Hamilton by 3.5 seconds too.

That means if they were equal at all other tracks through the year, Vettel would have on average out qualified him by 0.170. So thats the size of the skew from one result and the reason why wet races are discounted.

Vettel's dry wins were;

Canada -0.041
Monza -0.275
Brazil -0.170

Vettel also out qualified Ricciardo by 1 second in Malaysia helping to get that average down to 0.060 but really he got heavily beaten.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:12 pm 
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Quote:
I found why the data is skewed massively by the wet. Vettel out qualified Ricciardo by 3.3 seconds at Silverstone on that mixed track. The guys that didn't abort done well that day. Rosberg out qualified Hamilton by 3.5 seconds too.

I excluded Silverstone from my analysis because Ricciardo didn't do a final lap.

I also excluded Australia, Spain and USA because of engine problems for Vettel.

That brings the score to 9-6.

lamo wrote:
Vettel's dry wins were;

Canada -0.041
Monza -0.275
Brazil -0.170

Vettel was also faster in Hungary, although that was only moist.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:50 pm 
KingVoid wrote:
Quote:
I found why the data is skewed massively by the wet. Vettel out qualified Ricciardo by 3.3 seconds at Silverstone on that mixed track. The guys that didn't abort done well that day. Rosberg out qualified Hamilton by 3.5 seconds too.

I excluded Silverstone from my analysis because Ricciardo didn't do a final lap.

I also excluded Australia, Spain and USA because of engine problems for Vettel.

That brings the score to 9-6.

lamo wrote:
Vettel's dry wins were;

Canada -0.041
Monza -0.275
Brazil -0.170

Vettel was also faster in Hungary, although that was only moist.


So what is your in the dry score? It seems even your analysis shows Ricciardo signficiantly better but Vettel closer because Ricciardo isn't very good in the wet. The 1 second in Malaysia is worth -0.050 for Vettels entire season.

Did Ricciardo have no issues in any qualifying sessions, since you discounted 3 sessions for Vettels issues and that Renault seemed to have problems quite frequently?

Examining Vettel's 3 dry wins a bit close.

Canada.
Ricciardo was -0.2 quicker than Vettel on best sectors and quicker in 2/3. Suggesting he had the speed but made errors.

Monza and Brazil, Vettel beat him straight up as far as I know. Unless Ricciardo car had issues.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 8:03 pm 
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As far as I’m aware, Ricciardo had no engine problems in qualifying.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:20 pm 
KingVoid wrote:
As far as I’m aware, Ricciardo had no engine problems in qualifying.


Its also worth noting that Ricciardo's main strength over Vettel was race day too. So whilst he still comfortably beat him on saturdays, he did the real damage on Sundays.

When both finished 11-3 to Ricciardo although that is somewhat increased by Vettels qualifying break downs. Even in the race Ricciardo qualified behind Vettel, he was usually able to get by.

Vettel finished ahead of him just 3 times when both finished and in all of them Ricciardo out qualified him too.

- Japan in the wet. I can't remember but I think Ricciardo may have been net ahead when it was red flagged as Vettel had to stop again. Could be wrong, but it was close between them that race.

- Germany when Ricciardo starting 5th (1 place ahead of Vettel) had to avoid a Massa crash at the start and dropped to 14th.

- Singapore, Vettels best track. Ricciardo out qualified him but made a terrible start, dropping to 4th whilst Vettel got to 2nd and the race was decided there and then between the pair.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:29 am 
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lamo wrote:
I found why the data is skewed massively by the wet. Vettel out qualified Ricciardo by 3.3 seconds at Silverstone on that mixed track. The guys that didn't abort done well that day. Rosberg out qualified Hamilton by 3.5 seconds too.

That means if they were equal at all other tracks through the year, Vettel would have on average out qualified him by 0.170. So thats the size of the skew from one result and the reason why wet races are discounted.

Vettel's dry wins were;

Canada -0.041
Monza -0.275
Brazil -0.170

Vettel also out qualified Ricciardo by 1 second in Malaysia helping to get that average down to 0.060 but really he got heavily beaten.

Vettel also had

Hungary 0.190s

Ricciardo dry wins

Bahrain 0.393s
Spain 0.439s*
Monaco 0.163s
Austria 0.163s
Germany 0.304s
Singapore 0.048s
Japan 0.387s
Sochi 0.380s
Abu Dhabi 0.667s

Taking out Spain because of a claimed engine problem for Vettel gives Ricciardo a dry average of 0.15s.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:37 am 
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lamo wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
As far as I’m aware, Ricciardo had no engine problems in qualifying.


Its also worth noting that Ricciardo's main strength over Vettel was race day too. So whilst he still comfortably beat him on saturdays, he did the real damage on Sundays.

When both finished 11-3 to Ricciardo although that is somewhat increased by Vettels qualifying break downs. Even in the race Ricciardo qualified behind Vettel, he was usually able to get by.

Vettel finished ahead of him just 3 times when both finished and in all of them Ricciardo out qualified him too.

- Japan in the wet. I can't remember but I think Ricciardo may have been net ahead when it was red flagged as Vettel had to stop again. Could be wrong, but it was close between them that race.

- Germany when Ricciardo starting 5th (1 place ahead of Vettel) had to avoid a Massa crash at the start and dropped to 14th.

- Singapore, Vettels best track. Ricciardo out qualified him but made a terrible start, dropping to 4th whilst Vettel got to 2nd and the race was decided there and then between the pair.

In Japan Vettel was running ahead in the wet before it was red flagged both had made the same stops, also in Hungary when it was wet Vettel was ahead but had a spin on dry tyres which allowed Ricciardo past him.

In Singapore Ricciardo was running behind Vettel but then was suffering an engine problem towards the latter part of the race.

So Vettel was consistently better than Ricciardo in the wet but 90% of the races tend to be in the dry were Ricciardo was consistently quicker both in qualifying and the race.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 2:10 am 
This is why I don’t buy into Monaco 2016 as a Ricciardo wet weather masterclass, the Red Bull was the car to have that day. Hamilton kept in touch in an inferior package. I’ve seen nothing of Ricciardo as being a top driver in the wet. He looked good that day as Kvyat was down the order and then crashed out if I remember correctly. Ricciardo was awesome in dry qualifying however, but Hamilton never got his runs.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:34 am 
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lamo wrote:
This is why I don’t buy into Monaco 2016 as a Ricciardo wet weather masterclass, the Red Bull was the car to have that day. Hamilton kept in touch in an inferior package. I’ve seen nothing of Ricciardo as being a top driver in the wet. He looked good that day as Kvyat was down the order and then crashed out if I remember correctly. Ricciardo was awesome in dry qualifying however, but Hamilton never got his runs.


He's had some good performances in the wet though, it's just his team mates minus Kvyat have happened to be very good in the wet. 2015 in US he was quicker than both Nico and Lewis when it was wet, He was quick enough in Hungary 2014 and Monza qualifying last year he was nip and tuck with Max,didn't get beat by much. Singapore he was closer to Lewis in the wet than the dry.

He's no Nico R, disappearing by seconds a lap. Brazil 2016 is his closest to being that bad but he had some visor issues to go with it.

Not that I think he'd have been much closer or that Monaco 2016 was a masterclass but he's probably better than most in the wet, just not on the other guys in the top 5's level. I can't see Bottas,Kīmi and co giving him much trouble tbh.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 4:34 am 
Nico actually wasn’t bad in the wet, just the Monaco race in 2016 has killed his rating.

2015 US - Kvyat was also up there with him too. Both Red Bulls were attacking both Mercedes, until Kvyat spun out.

2014 Hungary - I’m not sure where he was running exactly, but he was behind Vettel and he took the lead of the race as everybody switched to dries as all the leaders got screwed. He was great in the dry though.

I’m not saying he is awful and I agree he has had 2 great wet weather drivers for team mates. In hindsight Verne was probably awesome in the wet too. Ricciardo is arguably top 3/4 on the grid in the dry. In the wet he is more top 7-10 and not in the same league as Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso which he arguably is in the dry.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:22 am 
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lamo wrote:
This is why I don’t buy into Monaco 2016 as a Ricciardo wet weather masterclass, the Red Bull was the car to have that day. Hamilton kept in touch in an inferior package. I’ve seen nothing of Ricciardo as being a top driver in the wet. He looked good that day as Kvyat was down the order and then crashed out if I remember correctly. Ricciardo was awesome in dry qualifying however, but Hamilton never got his runs.

I thought that Verstappen was his teammate but he crashed in qualifying so he had to start close to the back, he was coming through the field before he crashed again.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 11:25 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
This is why I don’t buy into Monaco 2016 as a Ricciardo wet weather masterclass, the Red Bull was the car to have that day. Hamilton kept in touch in an inferior package. I’ve seen nothing of Ricciardo as being a top driver in the wet. He looked good that day as Kvyat was down the order and then crashed out if I remember correctly. Ricciardo was awesome in dry qualifying however, but Hamilton never got his runs.


He's had some good performances in the wet though, it's just his team mates minus Kvyat have happened to be very good in the wet. 2015 in US he was quicker than both Nico and Lewis when it was wet, He was quick enough in Hungary 2014 and Monza qualifying last year he was nip and tuck with Max,didn't get beat by much. Singapore he was closer to Lewis in the wet than the dry.

He's no Nico R, disappearing by seconds a lap. Brazil 2016 is his closest to being that bad but he had some visor issues to go with it.

Not that I think he'd have been much closer or that Monaco 2016 was a masterclass but he's probably better than most in the wet, just not on the other guys in the top 5's level. I can't see Bottas,Kīmi and co giving him much trouble tbh.

Hungary 2014 Ricciardo was only quick when the track dried out and everyone was on slicks, in the wet he was running behind Vettel.

In Singapore he out qualified Hamilton in dry qualifying.

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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 1:11 pm 
He also had a gearbox problem at the end of the wet part and all of the dry part of the race.

I’m also not sure it is true he was quicker in the wet part. A few SC’s reeled him back in and he had fresher inters than Hamilton after the first SC, yet Hamilton kept dropping him, including by 3.6 seconds in the opening racing lap. Which was a 5 second lead after just 3 laps, then Lewis made an error and it went down before going back up again.

http://en.mclarenf-1.com/index.php?page ... 0Ricciardo

In fact, it’s definitely not true, once the dries went on - Ricciardo was matching Hamiltons pace and by that point he had a gearbox issue.

I think his qualifying record in the wet must read something like 1-10 or 2-10. Verne and Vettel out qualified him 3-4 times each, Verstappen 1-2. I can only remember him out qualifying Vettel once. I cant remember a wet qualifying in 2015 against Kvyat?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 3:04 pm 
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What is missing from the Vettel v Ricciardo debate is the way Vettel used up the tyres in race trim which was not normal hence why he had a torrid '14. Ricciardo has no doubt benefited from this.


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 30, 2018 6:14 pm 
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This simple, and most accurate answer to question posed by the OP is:

whichever driver has the best cars for the longest period of time.
;)

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 12:57 am 
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lamo wrote:
Nico actually wasn’t bad in the wet, just the Monaco race in 2016 has killed his rating.

2015 US - Kvyat was also up there with him too. Both Red Bulls were attacking both Mercedes, until Kvyat spun out.

2014 Hungary - I’m not sure where he was running exactly, but he was behind Vettel and he took the lead of the race as everybody switched to dries as all the leaders got screwed. He was great in the dry though.

I’m not saying he is awful and I agree he has had 2 great wet weather drivers for team mates. In hindsight Verne was probably awesome in the wet too. Ricciardo is arguably top 3/4 on the grid in the dry. In the wet he is more top 7-10 and not in the same league as Vettel, Hamilton, Verstappen and Alonso which he arguably is in the dry.


Not just Monaco, he was seconds slower in Japan 2014 or 15 as well. Poor in US 2015 too.

Dan wasn't just attacking the Mercs, he passed both on track in US. I get that Kvyat being up there too highlights the Red Bull was working well of course but I've never heard a good explanation why the Mercedes wouldn't be so I don't think it matters too much, Dan was still impressive.

He was behind Seb but he wasn't much slower in Hungary but got lucky with the first SC but unlucky with the 2nd. He was better in the dry as usual but it's a race he showed decent pace in the conditions I thought.

Thinking about it, all his top drives minus Monza qualifying last year were on inters so maybe it's a full wet weakness maybe? Agree he's not on the top guys level in those conditions but I'm not sure I'd put 6 in front of him. The 4 you mention for sure but after that he's in the argument so I'd lower that to 5-10 personally.

Vergne was top for me yeah, same race Hungary 2014 he was great, not as good as Alonso but great in his own right.

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PostPosted: Sat Mar 31, 2018 1:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
lamo wrote:
This is why I don’t buy into Monaco 2016 as a Ricciardo wet weather masterclass, the Red Bull was the car to have that day. Hamilton kept in touch in an inferior package. I’ve seen nothing of Ricciardo as being a top driver in the wet. He looked good that day as Kvyat was down the order and then crashed out if I remember correctly. Ricciardo was awesome in dry qualifying however, but Hamilton never got his runs.


He's had some good performances in the wet though, it's just his team mates minus Kvyat have happened to be very good in the wet. 2015 in US he was quicker than both Nico and Lewis when it was wet, He was quick enough in Hungary 2014 and Monza qualifying last year he was nip and tuck with Max,didn't get beat by much. Singapore he was closer to Lewis in the wet than the dry.

He's no Nico R, disappearing by seconds a lap. Brazil 2016 is his closest to being that bad but he had some visor issues to go with it.

Not that I think he'd have been much closer or that Monaco 2016 was a masterclass but he's probably better than most in the wet, just not on the other guys in the top 5's level. I can't see Bottas,Kīmi and co giving him much trouble tbh.

Hungary 2014 Ricciardo was only quick when the track dried out and everyone was on slicks, in the wet he was running behind Vettel.

In Singapore he out qualified Hamilton in dry qualifying.


Running behind Vettel means he's not as quick as Vettel, it doesn't mean he was poor. I thought he was pretty good tbh.

He did,with a better car in those conditions but I was meaning he was running closer to Lewis in the race when it was wet than he was when it dried but to be fair I'd forgot about the gearbox issue lamo mentions below so that may well explain it. But again he wasn't dropped and being slower than Lewis doesn't mean he was slow so I thought it was pretty decent.

EDIT: Looking at lamo's link It doesn't look like he was closer in the wet than the dry anyway so I was wrong about that too.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 07, 2018 4:33 pm 
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Vettel and Hamilton are going to pad their stats until 2020. After that, the likes of Verstappen and Norris will take over.


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