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Most wins
Vettel, 39 wins, age 27 55%  55%  [ 109 ]
Alonso, 32 wins, age 33 3%  3%  [ 5 ]
Hamilton, 27 wins, age 29 43%  43%  [ 86 ]
Total votes : 200
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 28, 2016 2:16 pm 
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After Spa:

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Vettel = 81
3. Hamilton = 78
4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 37
7. Rosberg = 32
8. Mansell = 31
9. Stewart = 27
10. Clark = 25
10. Lauda = 25
12. Fangio = 24
13. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Raikkonen = 20
16. Hakkinen = 20
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:22 pm 
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After Italy

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Vettel = 81
3. Hamilton = 78
4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 37
7. Rosberg = 33
8. Mansell = 31
9. Stewart = 27
10. Clark = 25
10. Lauda = 25
12. Fangio = 24
13. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Raikkonen = 20
16. Hakkinen = 20
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14

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PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 8:47 pm 
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After Malaysia '16

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Vettel = 80
3. Hamilton = 77
4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 36
7. Rosberg = 35
8. Mansell = 31
9. Stewart = 27
10. Clark = 25
10. Lauda = 25
12. Fangio = 24
13. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Raikkonen = 20
16. Hakkinen = 20
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14

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PostPosted: Tue Dec 20, 2016 11:17 pm 
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After season-end 2016

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Hamilton = 81
3. Vettel = 78
4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 36
7. Mansell = 31
8. Stewart = 27
9. Clark = 25
9. Lauda = 25
11. Fangio = 24
12. Rosberg (N) = 23
12. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Hakkinen = 20
16. Raikkonen = 20
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14

And same approach for Pole positions

1. Hamilton = 94
2. Vettel = 85
3. Schumacher = 68
4. Senna = 65
5. Clark = 33
5. Prost = 33
7. Mansell = 32
8. Rosberg (N) = 30
9. Fangio = 29
10. Hakkinen = 26
11. Alonso = 25
12. Lauda = 24
12. Piquet = 24
14. Hill (D) = 20
15. Stewart = 17
16. Moss = 16
17. Raikkonen = 16
18. Brabham = 13
19. Button = 8
20. Fittipaldi = 6
21. Hill (G) = 3

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 8:34 am 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Zoue wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
mcdo wrote:
Seeing Rosberg's name that high up is an eyesore


I know what you mean. I feel kind of sorry for him, he's not doing much wrong apart from the odd clumsy bit of defensive driving and his stats are great, but despite his name creeping into many Top 10 lists, I'm just not sure how he'll be remembered after he retires.

I think he should have jumped ship. As long as he's Hamilton's teammate he will always be looked at negatively. Going to another team and once again being the best driver on the team would do wonders for his reputation.

But he wouldn't be anywhere near as competitive. Right now he's in the only team that guarantees him podiums and chances of race wins. He's already surpassing some all time greats as far as stats go and ultimately over the course of time that's how he'll be remembered. Just look at how much people use stats today to rank drivers both past and present. It's a big ask of any driver to willingly leave a dominant team and potentially consign himself to obscurity.

I don't think that he'll be remembered particularly well just because of stats. Mercedes won't be on top forever but Hamilton probably will always have the upper hand over Rosberg. I think it's unlikely that Nico will ever become champion as Lewis's teammate. I also think that he would have the upper hand against the vast majority of potential teammates out there on the grid.

Drivers in Nico's position are never remembered well.

We can all rest easy now

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 9:56 am 
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mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Drivers in Nico's position are never remembered well.

We can all rest easy now

Well, Nico is almost certainly doomed to be remembered as a weak world champion, so I don't know if you'd classify that as 'remembered well'. He has certainly assured he'll be remembered, though.

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 10:46 am 
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Exediron wrote:
mcdo wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Drivers in Nico's position are never remembered well.

We can all rest easy now

Well, Nico is almost certainly doomed to be remembered as a weak world champion, so I don't know if you'd classify that as 'remembered well'. He has certainly assured he'll be remembered, though.

That whole thing started with me saying his name was an eyesore on that list. Now not so much - other names on that list are the likes of Damon Hill and Jenson Button

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PostPosted: Wed Dec 21, 2016 12:28 pm 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
After season-end 2016

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Hamilton = 81
3. Vettel = 78
4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 36
7. Mansell = 31
8. Stewart = 27
9. Clark = 25
9. Lauda = 25
11. Fangio = 24
12. Rosberg (N) = 23
12. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Hakkinen = 20
16. Raikkonen = 20
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14

And same approach for Pole positions

1. Hamilton = 94
2. Vettel = 85
3. Schumacher = 68
4. Senna = 65
5. Clark = 33
5. Prost = 33
7. Mansell = 32
8. Rosberg (N) = 30
9. Fangio = 29
10. Hakkinen = 26
11. Alonso = 25
12. Lauda = 24
12. Piquet = 24
14. Hill (D) = 20
15. Stewart = 17
16. Moss = 16
17. Raikkonen = 16
18. Brabham = 13
19. Button = 8
20. Fittipaldi = 6
21. Hill (G) = 3


Actual at end of 2016

Hamilton 31 y.o.
Wins 53
Poles 61
Races 188

Vettel 29 y.o.
Wins 42
Poles 46
Races 179

Alonso 35 y.o.
Wins 35
Poles 22
Races 274

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:24 am 
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Randine wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
After season-end 2016

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Hamilton = 81
3. Vettel = 78
4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 36
7. Mansell = 31
8. Stewart = 27
9. Clark = 25
9. Lauda = 25
11. Fangio = 24
12. Rosberg (N) = 23
12. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Hakkinen = 20
16. Raikkonen = 20
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14

And same approach for Pole positions

1. Hamilton = 94
2. Vettel = 85
3. Schumacher = 68
4. Senna = 65
5. Clark = 33
5. Prost = 33
7. Mansell = 32
8. Rosberg (N) = 30
9. Fangio = 29
10. Hakkinen = 26
11. Alonso = 25
12. Lauda = 24
12. Piquet = 24
14. Hill (D) = 20
15. Stewart = 17
16. Moss = 16
17. Raikkonen = 16
18. Brabham = 13
19. Button = 8
20. Fittipaldi = 6
21. Hill (G) = 3


Actual at end of 2016

Hamilton 31 y.o.
Wins 53
Poles 61
Races 188

Vettel 29 y.o.
Wins 42
Poles 46
Races 179

Alonso 35 y.o.
Wins 35
Poles 22
Races 274

Interesting that Hamilton has only done 9 more races than Vettel given the wins and poles differences, the last 3 years have not been kind to Vettel.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:47 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
Actual at end of 2016

Hamilton 31 y.o.
Wins 53
Poles 61
Races 188

Vettel 29 y.o.
Wins 42
Poles 46
Races 179

Alonso 35 y.o.
Wins 35
Poles 22
Races 274

Interesting that Hamilton has only done 9 more races than Vettel given the wins and poles differences, the last 3 years have not been kind to Vettel.

Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 5:25 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
Actual at end of 2016

Hamilton 31 y.o.
Wins 53
Poles 61
Races 188

Vettel 29 y.o.
Wins 42
Poles 46
Races 179

Alonso 35 y.o.
Wins 35
Poles 22
Races 274

Interesting that Hamilton has only done 9 more races than Vettel given the wins and poles differences, the last 3 years have not been kind to Vettel.

Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


:lol: :nod:

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:03 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
Actual at end of 2016

Hamilton 31 y.o.
Wins 53
Poles 61
Races 188

Vettel 29 y.o.
Wins 42
Poles 46
Races 179

Alonso 35 y.o.
Wins 35
Poles 22
Races 274

Interesting that Hamilton has only done 9 more races than Vettel given the wins and poles differences, the last 3 years have not been kind to Vettel.

Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment of Vettel who has really not demonstrated, with any consistency, the highest levels of ability outside of his drives in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton that has won every year and especially in 2008 without the best machinery.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:47 am 
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ElevenTenths wrote:
Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment of Vettel who has really not demonstrated, with any consistency, the highest levels of ability outside of his drives in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton that has won every year and especially in 2008 without the best machinery.

Sure, he's won. But he wouldn't have 50+ wins without the best machinery, which is the point I was making. Win records or pole records are the product of a great driver being fortunate enough to have a great car. If Hamilton was driving the Ferrari and Vettel was driving the Mercedes, do you really think their numbers would still be the same?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 1:45 pm 
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ElevenTenths wrote:
Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment of Vettel who has really not demonstrated, with any consistency, the highest levels of ability outside of his drives in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton that has won every year and especially in 2008 without the best machinery.


Ah, these statistics... unlike Vettel that has not lost any WDC to his teammate in that best machinery. :twisted:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 9:55 pm 
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;)
Prema wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:
Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment of Vettel who has really not demonstrated, with any consistency, the highest levels of ability outside of his drives in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton that has won every year and especially in 2008 without the best machinery.


Ah, these statistics... unlike Vettel that has not lost any WDC to his teammate in that best machinery. :twisted:


You ought to know better than to go there with regard to Vettel. Common knowledge that Vettel was beaten comprehensively (quali, races, points) in 2014 so whether it was for the WDC, is relevant. What it means is that he only won as many because his teammate was weak. Hamilton lost yes, but to a driver that beat Schumacher comprehensively for 3 years straight, no shame there! no sir. ;)


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:02 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:
Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment of Vettel who has really not demonstrated, with any consistency, the highest levels of ability outside of his drives in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton that has won every year and especially in 2008 without the best machinery.

Sure, he's won. But he wouldn't have 50+ wins without the best machinery, which is the point I was making. Win records or pole records are the product of a great driver being fortunate enough to have a great car. If Hamilton was driving the Ferrari and Vettel was driving the Mercedes, do you really think their numbers would still be the same?


Dude they ALL had the best car 99.9% of the time from Nino in his dominant Alfa Romeo to Nico in his dominant Mercedes - kind of a mute point at this time. If Hamilton and Vettel were reversed, I would still expect Hamilton to win more often that Vettel is at the moment, that has been proven in the past.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 10:33 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Randine wrote:
Actual at end of 2016

Hamilton 31 y.o.
Wins 53
Poles 61
Races 188

Vettel 29 y.o.
Wins 42
Poles 46
Races 179

Alonso 35 y.o.
Wins 35
Poles 22
Races 274

Interesting that Hamilton has only done 9 more races than Vettel given the wins and poles differences, the last 3 years have not been kind to Vettel.

Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:01 pm 
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ElevenTenths wrote:
Dude they ALL had the best car 99.9% of the time from Nino in his dominant Alfa Romeo to Nico in his dominant Mercedes - kind of a mute point at this time.

That was exactly the point I was making; win and pole records are meaningless aside from as a measurement of success. By themselves, they mean nothing about driver ability.

ElevenTenths wrote:
If Hamilton and Vettel were reversed, I would still expect Hamilton to win more often that Vettel is at the moment, that has been proven in the past.

No, it hasn't. Lewis has never beaten a dominant car with one that's nearly a whole second off its pace, so there's no basis for that comparison. He's never been Ricciardo's teammate, so we don't know if he would have beaten him for any of his wins in 2014. In 2015, Vettel won every time he had the opportunity - I don't see what more Lewis could have done. In 2016, Vettel did everything he needed to in Australia and Canada - he was let down by his team on both occasions, something Lewis would be quite familiar with from 2012.

Just to be clear, I do think Hamilton is probably the better driver of the two. But I don't think he would have won more races than Vettel has in the Ferrari. If you tried to make a case that Vettel would have won less often against Rosberg, I'd be more inclined to believe that one.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:03 pm 
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By the end of March 2017 I will be confident in answering this question. I think this will all come down to how these regulations shake things up next year. On the extreme "no-change" possibility (where Mercedes are still every bit as dominant) I would say that Hamilton will make a run at Michael's record. On the extreme "change" possibility (Ferrari become dominant and Mercedes are lost) I think Vettel still has the time to make a run at the record too.

In reality it will be difficult for either of them to catch Michael's number but we shouldn't take anything away from them due to that. They have both been great since coming into F1 a decade ago and they have had stiffer competition than Michael did. The real question for me is, will one of these younger drivers take the mantle from them anytime soon. Both Hamilton and Vettel were far younger than Ricciardo, Bottas, Hulk, Perez or any of the other young drivers when they won their first championships. Both Hamilton and Vettel have been at or near the front of the pack ever since.

Of course Max is a totally different story. He is super-young but I do think that next season will be telling. Daniel is in his prime and we have to see whether Max is able to beat him next year or not. If Daniel beats him next year, I have to assume that Max is no better than Dan. Basically you would think the younger guy would improve relative to the older, more experienced driver over time. Either way, those two seem to be the ones to watch. Their matchup is easily the best in the paddock now that Rosberg and Button have retired.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 23, 2016 11:05 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
By the end of March 2017 I will be confident in answering this question. I think this will all come down to how these regulations shake things up next year. On the extreme "no-change" possibility (where Mercedes are still every bit as dominant) I would say that Hamilton will make a run at Michael's record. On the extreme "change" possibility (Ferrari become dominant and Mercedes are lost) I think Vettel still has the time to make a run at the record too.

I would think the really extreme change possibility would be McLaren build a dominant car and Alonso starts racking up 15-20 race wins a year! ;)

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 8:05 am 
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ElevenTenths wrote:
;)
Prema wrote:
ElevenTenths wrote:
Yes, I would have to agree with your assessment of Vettel who has really not demonstrated, with any consistency, the highest levels of ability outside of his drives in the fastest car, unlike Hamilton that has won every year and especially in 2008 without the best machinery.


Ah, these statistics... unlike Vettel that has not lost any WDC to his teammate in that best machinery. :twisted:


You ought to know better than to go there with regard to Vettel. Common knowledge that Vettel was beaten comprehensively (quali, races, points) in 2014 so whether it was for the WDC, is relevant. What it means is that he only won as many because his teammate was weak. Hamilton lost yes, but to a driver that beat Schumacher comprehensively for 3 years straight, no shame there! no sir. ;)


Ah, these statistics again... Hamilton lost the WDC to a driver that beat Schumacher comprehensively for 3 years straight.
Just see... this coming from someone starting the post with You ought to know better than to go there and bragging with knowing the common knowledge :smug:

(one phrase that I learned around since Abu Dhabi '16, comes handy: "cry me the river")


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:04 pm 
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Although we've yet to see how momentums might shift in 2017, I'm quite confident that Lewis will end up with the most wins at this stage. For the future though, Verstappen could be a good bet - as talented as he is though, I'm not actually convinced he'll be the dominant driver of his own generation. There's a lot of fresh talent entering F1 right now, and I'll have the keenest eye on Vandoorne.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 5:51 pm 
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Has to be Max long term I would think. He can pass Lewis and Seb with 4-5 seasons in a dominant car and Michael with a dozen merely good ones.

Considering the team he's in already, the era we're entering,his talent and profile then I find it hard to think he won't get at least the above within his 20 or so seasons.(4-5 dominant years and a dozen competitive/good)

But then again if you'd told me 10 years ago that Alonso wouldn't get the best car again I'd have thought you were mad so who knows.

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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:06 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Has to be Max long term I would think. He can pass Lewis and Seb with 4-5 seasons in a dominant car and Michael with a dozen merely good ones.

Considering the team he's in already, the era we're entering,his talent and profile then I find it hard to think he won't get at least the above within his 20 or so seasons.(4-5 dominant years and a dozen competitive/good)

But then again if you'd told me 10 years ago that Alonso wouldn't get the best car again I'd have thought you were mad so who knows.


All I'd say about that is that we don't know yet how Max's generation stacks up in terms of ability yet. There's a lot of talent entering F1 but we need 2 or 3 years to see where they more or less stand. What if Ricciardo outdoes Verstappen for the next two years and, in the meantime, Vandoorne shows himself to be the next big thing and one of Wehrlein, Sainz, Ocon or Stroll shake-up the pecking order near the top? I don't think Max yet has it in the bag for being the most winningest of his gen.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:31 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has to be Max long term I would think. He can pass Lewis and Seb with 4-5 seasons in a dominant car and Michael with a dozen merely good ones.

Considering the team he's in already, the era we're entering,his talent and profile then I find it hard to think he won't get at least the above within his 20 or so seasons.(4-5 dominant years and a dozen competitive/good)

But then again if you'd told me 10 years ago that Alonso wouldn't get the best car again I'd have thought you were mad so who knows.


All I'd say about that is that we don't know yet how Max's generation stacks up in terms of ability yet. There's a lot of talent entering F1 but we need 2 or 3 years to see where they more or less stand. What if Ricciardo outdoes Verstappen for the next two years and, in the meantime, Vandoorne shows himself to be the next big thing and one of Wehrlein, Sainz, Ocon or Stroll shake-up the pecking order near the top? I don't think Max yet has it in the bag for being the most winningest of his gen.


I think he showed he was better all round than Sainz and I don't think that will change. I'm not expecting much from Stroll to be honest.

Ocon and Stoff are the ones to watch along with Max I think. Stoff's age makes it a bit harder for me to back him in overhauling Seb,Lewis and Michael but who knows. I certainly think he has the talent and he's in a big team so that's half the battle.

I think if Ricciardo beats Max next year he may try something new like Ferrari,McLaren or Mercedes. Red Bull also need to make a decision about Sainz next year and the best solution for all may be for Dan to take a new challenge. Especially if he gets his title.

That would leave Max as lead driver in Red Bull next to a driver I think he can cover. Perfect situation for some attempted record grabbing and he'd be what, 20?.

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"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:38 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has to be Max long term I would think. He can pass Lewis and Seb with 4-5 seasons in a dominant car and Michael with a dozen merely good ones.

Considering the team he's in already, the era we're entering,his talent and profile then I find it hard to think he won't get at least the above within his 20 or so seasons.(4-5 dominant years and a dozen competitive/good)

But then again if you'd told me 10 years ago that Alonso wouldn't get the best car again I'd have thought you were mad so who knows.


All I'd say about that is that we don't know yet how Max's generation stacks up in terms of ability yet. There's a lot of talent entering F1 but we need 2 or 3 years to see where they more or less stand. What if Ricciardo outdoes Verstappen for the next two years and, in the meantime, Vandoorne shows himself to be the next big thing and one of Wehrlein, Sainz, Ocon or Stroll shake-up the pecking order near the top? I don't think Max yet has it in the bag for being the most winningest of his gen.


I think he showed he was better all round than Sainz and I don't think that will change. I'm not expecting much from Stroll to be honest.

Ocon and Stoff are the ones to watch along with Max I think. Stoff's age makes it a bit harder for me to back him in overhauling Seb,Lewis and Michael but who knows. I certainly think he has the talent and he's in a big team so that's half the battle.

I think if Ricciardo beats Max next year he may try something new like Ferrari,McLaren or Mercedes. Red Bull also need to make a decision about Sainz next year and the best solution for all may be for Dan to take a new challenge. Especially if he gets his title.

That would leave Max as lead driver in Red Bull next to a driver I think he can cover. Perfect situation for some attempted record grabbing and he'd be what, 20?.


You are probably right there. I am still impressed with Sainz though, but don't sense he's quite the sparkling talent that Verstappen is.

I don't read too much into Max's age, in that, I don't automatically assume he'll have a longer career than say, Stoffel Vandoorne, just because he started 7 or so years earlier. I should imagine that 15 years of toiling would feel quite similar for either of them, and that really the mental discipline and hunger would go before any debilitating physical decline of fitness, reflexes, and the like.

I can very much envisage the sort of scenario you detail here, where Dan leaves Red Bull and Sainz is brought into Red Bull who would likely be a more amenable team-mate. I expect real fireworks between Dan and Max over the next one (maybe two) years, but no longer than that - at least not as team-mates.


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PostPosted: Sat Dec 24, 2016 6:44 pm 
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Invade wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Invade wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Has to be Max long term I would think. He can pass Lewis and Seb with 4-5 seasons in a dominant car and Michael with a dozen merely good ones.

Considering the team he's in already, the era we're entering,his talent and profile then I find it hard to think he won't get at least the above within his 20 or so seasons.(4-5 dominant years and a dozen competitive/good)

But then again if you'd told me 10 years ago that Alonso wouldn't get the best car again I'd have thought you were mad so who knows.


All I'd say about that is that we don't know yet how Max's generation stacks up in terms of ability yet. There's a lot of talent entering F1 but we need 2 or 3 years to see where they more or less stand. What if Ricciardo outdoes Verstappen for the next two years and, in the meantime, Vandoorne shows himself to be the next big thing and one of Wehrlein, Sainz, Ocon or Stroll shake-up the pecking order near the top? I don't think Max yet has it in the bag for being the most winningest of his gen.


I think he showed he was better all round than Sainz and I don't think that will change. I'm not expecting much from Stroll to be honest.

Ocon and Stoff are the ones to watch along with Max I think. Stoff's age makes it a bit harder for me to back him in overhauling Seb,Lewis and Michael but who knows. I certainly think he has the talent and he's in a big team so that's half the battle.

I think if Ricciardo beats Max next year he may try something new like Ferrari,McLaren or Mercedes. Red Bull also need to make a decision about Sainz next year and the best solution for all may be for Dan to take a new challenge. Especially if he gets his title.

That would leave Max as lead driver in Red Bull next to a driver I think he can cover. Perfect situation for some attempted record grabbing and he'd be what, 20?.


You are probably right there. I am still impressed with Sainz though, but don't sense he's quite the sparkling talent that Verstappen is.

I don't read too much into Max's age, in that, I don't automatically assume he'll have a longer career than say, Stoffel Vandoorne, just because he started 7 or so years earlier. I should imagine that 15 years of toiling would feel quite similar for either of them, and that really the mental discipline and hunger would go before any debilitating physical decline of fitness, reflexes, and the like.

I can very much envisage the sort of scenario you detail here, where Dan leaves Red Bull and Sainz is brought into Red Bull who would likely be a more amenable team-mate. I expect real fireworks between Dan and Max over the next one (maybe two) years, but no longer than that - at least not as team-mates.


Yeah I like Sainz, big talent but I think Max just has him covered in every area. I would have said Qualifying would be where Sainz could get him but the way Max finished the season against Dan made me think twice.

Good point about the age. As Nico showed you never know when someone just has enough whereas Stoff could pull a Schumi and drive in his 40's, you just never know.

Yeah completely agree about Dan and Max, could get very tasty with a title on the line. :thumbup:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 02, 2017 10:47 pm 
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as at 02/09/17

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Hamilton = 83
3. Vettel = 79

4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 34
7. Mansell = 31
8. Stewart = 27
9. Clark = 25
9. Lauda = 25
11. Fangio = 24
12. Rosberg (N) = 23
12. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Hakkinen = 20
16. Raikkonen = 19
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14


based on driver racing till they are 37 with 20 races/season and they continue winning at their current wins-from-starts ratio

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:06 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
as at 02/09/17

1. Schumacher = 91
2. Hamilton = 83
3. Vettel = 79

4. Prost = 51
5. Senna = 41
6. Alonso = 34
7. Mansell = 31
8. Stewart = 27
9. Clark = 25
9. Lauda = 25
11. Fangio = 24
12. Rosberg (N) = 23
12. Piquet = 23
14. Hill (D) = 22
15. Hakkinen = 20
16. Raikkonen = 19
17. Moss = 16
18. Button = 15
19. Brabham = 14
19. Fittipaldi = 14
19. Hill (G) = 14


based on driver racing till they are 37 with 20 races/season and they continue winning at their current wins-from-starts ratio

Good timing with this, we've just be talking about how Hamilton will probably get close to Schumacher's win record.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:11 am 
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I find it surprising to see only four current drivers in the top 21 drivers for wins considering the vast amount of races we have per year and the length of drivers' careers these days.

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:16 am 
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Still going for Alonso. I reckon he has 5 dominant seasons left in him when McLaren Honda come good :lol:

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 03, 2017 12:28 am 
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Schumacher forever#1 wrote:
I find it surprising to see only four current drivers in the top 21 drivers for wins considering the vast amount of races we have per year and the length of drivers' careers these days.


Rosberg has only just retired and is on it, Rosberg, Vettel and Hamilton must have won 75-80% of the races since 2006... nodoby else has had much of a look in. Two periods of extreme domination, 3 periods since 2000 if you include Schumachers Ferrari run.

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:03 am 
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lamo wrote:
Rosberg has only just retired and is on it, Rosberg, Vettel and Hamilton must have won 75-80% of the races since 2006... nodoby else has had much of a look in. Two periods of extreme domination, 3 periods since 2000 if you include Schumachers Ferrari run.

201 races since Australia 2007,

59 have been won by Hamilton, 46 by Vettel and 23 by Rosberg. That's 64% actually, which is still very high.


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 11:45 am 
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KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
Rosberg has only just retired and is on it, Rosberg, Vettel and Hamilton must have won 75-80% of the races since 2006... nodoby else has had much of a look in. Two periods of extreme domination, 3 periods since 2000 if you include Schumachers Ferrari run.

201 races since Australia 2007,

59 have been won by Hamilton, 46 by Vettel and 23 by Rosberg. That's 64% actually, which is still very high.

So between them Hamilton and Vettel have won half the races and will have won 8 of the 11 titles, unfortunate for Alonso but this may be seen in the future as the Hamilton/Vettel era?

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:32 pm 
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As fun as these predictions are, most of them most likely aren't going to come true. Things usually go differently than people would assume.
I remember in the late '70s, most people assumed Stewart's 27 wins were never going to beaten . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:36 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


There's another aspect to this that favours modern-day drivers: the huge increase in reliability. A few decades ago, even if you had a dominant car, you would still rack up a significant number of retirements. Add to that the ever-expanding calendar . . .


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
KingVoid wrote:
lamo wrote:
Rosberg has only just retired and is on it, Rosberg, Vettel and Hamilton must have won 75-80% of the races since 2006... nodoby else has had much of a look in. Two periods of extreme domination, 3 periods since 2000 if you include Schumachers Ferrari run.

201 races since Australia 2007,

59 have been won by Hamilton, 46 by Vettel and 23 by Rosberg. That's 64% actually, which is still very high.

So between them Hamilton and Vettel have won half the races and will have won 8 of the 11 titles, unfortunate for Alonso but this may be seen in the future as the Hamilton/Vettel era?


Oh I'm sure it will. Even at the end of this year they will have won 8 out of the last 10 seasons and who would be against one of them winning the 2018 championship as well?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 12:58 pm 
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Sharknose wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


There's another aspect to this that favours modern-day drivers: the huge increase in reliability. A few decades ago, even if you had a dominant car, you would still rack up a significant number of retirements. Add to that the ever-expanding calendar . . .


Indeed... when you have 10-20% more races per year (just over the last two decades, 300% more than the 50s), the chances to rack up wins increases significantly.
:nod:

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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:22 pm 
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Sharknose wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


There's another aspect to this that favours modern-day drivers: the huge increase in reliability. A few decades ago, even if you had a dominant car, you would still rack up a significant number of retirements. Add to that the ever-expanding calendar . . .


Does that not somewhat balance out though? I wonder how many of Senna/Prost/Piquet/Mansell's wins came after someone in front of them retired?


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PostPosted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 2:58 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Sharknose wrote:
Exediron wrote:
Yep, it's crazy how drivers only accumulate lots of wins and poles when they're in the best car. It almost makes you think those stats aren't a good way to evaluate the respective ability of drivers at all!


There's another aspect to this that favours modern-day drivers: the huge increase in reliability. A few decades ago, even if you had a dominant car, you would still rack up a significant number of retirements. Add to that the ever-expanding calendar . . .


Does that not somewhat balance out though? I wonder how many of Senna/Prost/Piquet/Mansell's wins came after someone in front of them retired?


That's true, but my point was that modern-day drivers rack up wins much more easily than drivers from earlier decades. Look at 1978 for example. The Lotus was utterly dominant, but only won half the races. There were only 16 races (still a lot for the '70s) and Andretti won 6, Peterson 2. Transpose that season to now and with a car like that they would have won 18 or 19 of 20 races . . .


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