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Who would have won '18 WDC in the Ferrari?
Alonso 35%  35%  [ 8 ]
Ricciardo 26%  26%  [ 6 ]
Verstappen 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
Other - please specify 4%  4%  [ 1 ]
None 30%  30%  [ 7 ]
Total votes : 23
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 4:59 am 
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pokerman wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
During the Sochi weekend, Bernie Ecclestone opined, "Ferrari are too Italian to win championships nowadays" The races that followed have lent more credence and nuance to that theory. He makes comparisons of today's team with the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days (when the team was less driven by preserving image and more driven purely by racing.)

Don't shoot me, I'm just quoting the messenger. Here's the original article... http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24834 ... s-nowadays

The last paragraph explains what he means...

"Ferrari have got a completely different way of going on to Mercedes, haven't they. Mercedes has got a team that's pure, all they do is racing, it's nothing to do with the manufacturer. Ferrari is looking after their car production side of things, gearing that more or less to their Formula One performances. So it's run in a different way."

I'm sure I saw a video were Bernie said that Vettel was going to win the title, personally I take no heed in what he says.

He said that on Nico Rosberg's interview with him shortly after Germany. Maybe elsewhere, but that's someplace I know he did. You can't trust Ecclestone.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 5:01 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
During the Sochi weekend, Bernie Ecclestone opined, "Ferrari are too Italian to win championships nowadays" The races that followed have lent more credence and nuance to that theory. He makes comparisons of today's team with the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days (when the team was less driven by preserving image and more driven purely by racing.)

Don't shoot me, I'm just quoting the messenger. Here's the original article... http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24834 ... s-nowadays

The last paragraph explains what he means...

"Ferrari have got a completely different way of going on to Mercedes, haven't they. Mercedes has got a team that's pure, all they do is racing, it's nothing to do with the manufacturer. Ferrari is looking after their car production side of things, gearing that more or less to their Formula One performances. So it's run in a different way."

I'm sure I saw a video were Bernie said that Vettel was going to win the title, personally I take no heed in what he says.

He said that on Nico Rosberg's interview with him shortly after Germany. Maybe elsewhere, but that's someplace I know he did. You can't trust Ecclestone.

:nod:
never could, never will.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 10:09 am 
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MB-BOB wrote:
During the Sochi weekend, Bernie Ecclestone opined, "Ferrari are too Italian to win championships nowadays" The races that followed have lent more credence and nuance to that theory. He makes comparisons of today's team with the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days (when the team was less driven by preserving image and more driven purely by racing.)

Don't shoot me, I'm just quoting the messenger. Here's the original article... http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24834 ... s-nowadays

The last paragraph explains what he means...

"Ferrari have got a completely different way of going on to Mercedes, haven't they. Mercedes has got a team that's pure, all they do is racing, it's nothing to do with the manufacturer. Ferrari is looking after their car production side of things, gearing that more or less to their Formula One performances. So it's run in a different way."

A bit confused by the last bit.

Ferrari has the car division and the racing division, the Scuderia Ferrari one which is of course a pure racing team. So I am not sure what he means by that.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:01 am 
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None. Ferrari got it wrong with updates, Vettel over-drove to compensate and made many mistakes.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:29 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
None. Ferrari got it wrong with updates, Vettel over-drove to compensate and made many mistakes.


That might be true in two races.... But the championship was all but gone by then anyway. Without the mistakes in Baku, France and Germany he wouldn't have needed to try and compensate.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:41 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
None. Ferrari got it wrong with updates, Vettel over-drove to compensate and made many mistakes.


That might be true in two races.... But the championship was all but gone by then anyway. Without the mistakes in Baku, France and Germany he wouldn't have needed to try and compensate.


Don't forget Monza and Austria.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:17 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
During the Sochi weekend, Bernie Ecclestone opined, "Ferrari are too Italian to win championships nowadays" The races that followed have lent more credence and nuance to that theory. He makes comparisons of today's team with the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days (when the team was less driven by preserving image and more driven purely by racing.)

Don't shoot me, I'm just quoting the messenger. Here's the original article... http://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/24834 ... s-nowadays

The last paragraph explains what he means...

"Ferrari have got a completely different way of going on to Mercedes, haven't they. Mercedes has got a team that's pure, all they do is racing, it's nothing to do with the manufacturer. Ferrari is looking after their car production side of things, gearing that more or less to their Formula One performances. So it's run in a different way."

I'm sure I saw a video were Bernie said that Vettel was going to win the title, personally I take no heed in what he says.

He said that on Nico Rosberg's interview with him shortly after Germany. Maybe elsewhere, but that's someplace I know he did. You can't trust Ecclestone.

No and for me he is now totally irrelevant.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:25 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
None. Ferrari got it wrong with updates, Vettel over-drove to compensate and made many mistakes.

Vettel had an 8 point lead going into Germany and then he crashed from the lead of the race, he put pressure on both himself and the team, instead of a lead of maybe 15 points he found himself 17 points behind.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:48 pm 
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Those who dismiss Ecclestone in such a cavalier manner need to realize... Like him or not -- I didn't particularly care for him or his philosophies-- he knows a lot more about F1 than me, or any of you.

His point was simple. During the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days the team was focused on racing only, not worrying much about Ferrari IMAGE, Italian IMAGE. Luca Di Montezemolo (Fiat-Ferrari Chairman) was there, but he was able to largely compartmentalize the racing and commercial interests, by hiring a Frenchman and an Englishman who could care less about Tifosi honor.

When Todt/Brawn left, the compartmented racing-focused philosophy was discarded... The void was not filled by other (non-Italian) racing purists. Instead, the roles were assumed by top execs at Ferrari and FIAT (Di Montezemolo followed by others to the current), who come from a marketing (image development) background. People just as interested in creating FOTA and other political distractions. This was not a good move then, or now.

Enzo Ferrari was famous -- or at least that was the image -- for divorcing his F1 racing operation from the car business. He didn'te really care what happened to his road car division (sale to FIAT), as long as he could keep his beloved racing team to himself.

Those in the post Schumacher/Todt/Brawn era were/are not as purely driven, or completely focused.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:06 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
Those who dismiss Ecclestone in such a cavalier manner need to realize... Like him or not -- I didn't particularly care for him or his philosophies-- he knows a lot more about F1 than me, or any of you.

His point was simple. During the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days the team was focused on racing only, not worrying much about Ferrari IMAGE, Italian IMAGE. Luca Di Montezemolo (Fiat-Ferrari Chairman) was there, but he was able to largely compartmentalize the racing and commercial interests, by hiring a Frenchman and an Englishman who could care less about Tifosi honor.

When Todt/Brawn left, the compartmented racing-focused philosophy was discarded... The void was not filled by other (non-Italian) racing purists. Instead, the roles were assumed by top execs at Ferrari and FIAT (Di Montezemolo followed by others to the current), who come from a marketing (image development) background. People just as interested in creating FOTA and other political distractions. This was not a good move then, or now.

Enzo Ferrari was famous -- or at least that was the image -- for divorcing his F1 racing operation from the car business. He didn'te really care what happened to his road car division (sale to FIAT), as long as he could keep his beloved racing team to himself.

Those in the post Schumacher/Todt/Brawn era were/are not as purely driven, or completely focused.

What people are pointing out is that not long before that, he gave the complete opposite opinion and said Vettel would still beat Hamilton. There's nothing impressive about making two opposing predictions and then one of them coming true. He only said Ferrari wouldn't win after it became clear they were choking on the title.

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PF1 TOP THREE TEAM CHAMPIONSHIP (No Limit Excedrin Racing): 2017: 2nd| 2015: 1st
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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 8:28 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
MB-BOB wrote:
Those who dismiss Ecclestone in such a cavalier manner need to realize... Like him or not -- I didn't particularly care for him or his philosophies-- he knows a lot more about F1 than me, or any of you.

His point was simple. During the Jean Todt/Ross Brawn days the team was focused on racing only, not worrying much about Ferrari IMAGE, Italian IMAGE. Luca Di Montezemolo (Fiat-Ferrari Chairman) was there, but he was able to largely compartmentalize the racing and commercial interests, by hiring a Frenchman and an Englishman who could care less about Tifosi honor.

When Todt/Brawn left, the compartmented racing-focused philosophy was discarded... The void was not filled by other (non-Italian) racing purists. Instead, the roles were assumed by top execs at Ferrari and FIAT (Di Montezemolo followed by others to the current), who come from a marketing (image development) background. People just as interested in creating FOTA and other political distractions. This was not a good move then, or now.

Enzo Ferrari was famous -- or at least that was the image -- for divorcing his F1 racing operation from the car business. He didn'te really care what happened to his road car division (sale to FIAT), as long as he could keep his beloved racing team to himself.

Those in the post Schumacher/Todt/Brawn era were/are not as purely driven, or completely focused.

What people are pointing out is that not long before that, he gave the complete opposite opinion and said Vettel would still beat Hamilton. There's nothing impressive about making two opposing predictions and then one of them coming true. He only said Ferrari wouldn't win after it became clear they were choking on the title.


We're talking about two different but related things: 1) Ecclestone's opinion of Vettel as a driver at a point in time (German GP, July 20-22), and 2) Ecclestone's opinion of Ferrari as a team, at a subsequent point in time -- two months later -- when Vettel's fortunes had gone south (Sep.28-30). Both opinions can exist together taken in chronological order. The first was wishful thinking, like everyone's opinion here, albeit a much more educated one. The second is more an explanation (or excuse) to explain why the first opinion was not holding true.

Done with this one.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:05 pm 
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MB-BOB wrote:
We're talking about two different but related things: 1) Ecclestone's opinion of Vettel as a driver at a point in time (German GP, July 20-22), and 2) Ecclestone's opinion of Ferrari as a team, at a subsequent point in time -- two months later -- when Vettel's fortunes had gone south (Sep.28-30). Both opinions can exist together taken in chronological order. The first was wishful thinking, like everyone's opinion here, albeit a much more educated one. The second is more an explanation (or excuse) to explain why the first opinion was not holding true.

Done with this one.

Yes, both opinions certainly can exist together, and at the time he made them neither was particularly far outside the mainstream thinking.

My point of disagreement is against your assertion that Ecclestone is particularly well-informed for thinking that Ferrari is too flawed to win a title. If he had said it early in the year - when they were winning - it would seem like an impressively visionary thing to say. Anyone can point out flaws in an organization that has already revealed them. Ecclestone is certainly party to a great deal of insider knowledge, but I wouldn't consider his opinion any more valid than that of any journalist or F1 'expert' out there, not least of which because you can never trust what he says. When Vettel was champion, he said Vettel was better than Hamilton. Now that Hamilton is champion, he says Hamilton is better than Vettel - but if Vettel had won this year, I can almost guarantee he'd be back to saying Vettel is better. He says whatever is convenient at the time - a bit like a certain US politician he has far too many similarities with.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:14 pm 
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Anybody who believes a damn thing Bernie has to say these days is a prime candidate to buy the Brooklyn Bridge and/or the Washington Monument from me. clearance sale! Call for pricing.

Also for sale: a seat at the right hand of little donnie T.
;)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:18 pm 
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I think Dan would have won if in the Ferrari this year


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 1:30 am 
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Not a hugely representative number of votes, but interesting to see more people think Ricciardo would have done it than Verstappen.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:07 am 
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DOLOMITE wrote:
Not a hugely representative number of votes, but interesting to see more people think Ricciardo would have done it than Verstappen.

That's because people are assuming Verstappen would still have made the same mistakes in the early part of the season, which would have been more than enough to take him out of the WDC fight.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 12:31 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Not a hugely representative number of votes, but interesting to see more people think Ricciardo would have done it than Verstappen.

That's because people are assuming Verstappen would still have made the same mistakes in the early part of the season, which would have been more than enough to take him out of the WDC fight.


I just can't see how this is true though, it's the equilevant of saying any driver on the grid makes the same mistakes while driving the best car of the season at that period. Verstappen puts it on pole in Bahrain, China and Baku which already makes the chances of a mistakes less likely. Maybe Verstappen does make a mistake in Australia while he is chasing Hamilton but your less likely to make mistakes in a better car fighting for a championship than being in a car hoping for any points the top 2 teams give you.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 4:31 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Not a hugely representative number of votes, but interesting to see more people think Ricciardo would have done it than Verstappen.

That's because people are assuming Verstappen would still have made the same mistakes in the early part of the season, which would have been more than enough to take him out of the WDC fight.


I just can't see how this is true though, it's the equilevant of saying any driver on the grid makes the same mistakes while driving the best car of the season at that period. Verstappen puts it on pole in Bahrain, China and Baku which already makes the chances of a mistakes less likely. Maybe Verstappen does make a mistake in Australia while he is chasing Hamilton but your less likely to make mistakes in a better car fighting for a championship than being in a car hoping for any points the top 2 teams give you.

Well, Vettel has just about the same amount - if not more - of mistakes as Max this year in a better car fighting for a championship...


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:05 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Not a hugely representative number of votes, but interesting to see more people think Ricciardo would have done it than Verstappen.

That's because people are assuming Verstappen would still have made the same mistakes in the early part of the season, which would have been more than enough to take him out of the WDC fight.


I just can't see how this is true though, it's the equilevant of saying any driver on the grid makes the same mistakes while driving the best car of the season at that period. Verstappen puts it on pole in Bahrain, China and Baku which already makes the chances of a mistakes less likely. Maybe Verstappen does make a mistake in Australia while he is chasing Hamilton but your less likely to make mistakes in a better car fighting for a championship than being in a car hoping for any points the top 2 teams give you.

Well, Vettel has just about the same amount - if not more - of mistakes as Max this year in a better car fighting for a championship...


That's on Vettel having a very bad season and making many mistakes. That shows Vettel up for underperforming more than anything. Do I believe Verstappen would have made the same amount as mistakes as Vettel this season in the same car, I just can't see it.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2018 5:29 pm 
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F1_Ernie wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
F1_Ernie wrote:
Exediron wrote:
DOLOMITE wrote:
Not a hugely representative number of votes, but interesting to see more people think Ricciardo would have done it than Verstappen.

That's because people are assuming Verstappen would still have made the same mistakes in the early part of the season, which would have been more than enough to take him out of the WDC fight.


I just can't see how this is true though, it's the equilevant of saying any driver on the grid makes the same mistakes while driving the best car of the season at that period. Verstappen puts it on pole in Bahrain, China and Baku which already makes the chances of a mistakes less likely. Maybe Verstappen does make a mistake in Australia while he is chasing Hamilton but your less likely to make mistakes in a better car fighting for a championship than being in a car hoping for any points the top 2 teams give you.

Well, Vettel has just about the same amount - if not more - of mistakes as Max this year in a better car fighting for a championship...


That's on Vettel having a very bad season and making many mistakes. That shows Vettel up for underperforming more than anything. Do I believe Verstappen would have made the same amount as mistakes as Vettel this season in the same car, I just can't see it.


Equally, you could say that Max was underperforming at the first part if anything, I don't see Ricciardo doing the same mistakes in the same car.

Anyway, I was merely pointing out the irony in what you wrote, as we indeed have this situation right now.


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