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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:48 pm 
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Okay, so here's an opposite thread to the pay driver one.

I watch a lot of other series and sometimes I hear a name and think "Oh, so that's where he went" or don't remember they were ever an F1 driver until the commentator mentions it. Usually it's not somebody I miss from the F1 grid but other times I wonder how they would've gotten on if they'd had more backing.

I don't think Alexander Rossi was going to be a world beater by any means but I would've like to see what he could've done with a full season. The RBR YDP chewed up and spit out a couple who
could've found a ride elsewhere if the bulk of their backing hadn't been from Red Bull. I really wish JEV could've found a seat somewhere and I always had a soft spot for Alguersuari. Those are the most recent that come to my mind.

So which drivers do you think have lost out on a career as at least a solid journeyman in F1 to make room for drivers who brought more funds?

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 2:55 pm 
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Kobayashi and Di Resta at least good enough for the midfield. They are the standouts for me in recent times. Wherlein is looking like bring another. Of course Frijns is the big one who never made it to F1. Wickens also deserved a crack. Neither could even afford GP2.

Going back a bit I think Davidson was really unlucky to never get a proper F1 career. That wasn't all down to a lack of funds though.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:09 pm 
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Di Resta (Not far off Hulk caliber who now leads a works team)
Vergne (Not far off Dan on a Sunday who is Top 5 on the grid, and one of the best in the wet I've seen)
Frijns (Should've got a chance)
Rossi (Should've got a fair chance)

That'll do for now but they're all pretty recent. Be interesting to see who I've forgotten about.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:10 pm 
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Forgot about Wickens, good shout.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 5:04 pm 
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There are loads of drivers who were good, and we have never heard of, that fell away early in there careers due to lack of funds, christ, even an inopportune growth spurt can set back a promising karting career.

If you come from a background, where I dunno, your dads a warehouse worker, the chances of making it in professional motorsport are orders of magnitude less than somebody better off.

To get to F1 you need stars to align.

You need talent, money, luck, contacts and biology all on your side. By biology, I mean even the biggest F1 drivers are little bigger than average, most are smaller than that - half the populations ruled out by the karting stage.

I'd be willing to wage most of the guys with the most natural talent, never get near F1.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:21 pm 
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Sadly, my son will never get into higher levels in motorsport because I cannot afford the ever rising costs in Karting alone. It's gotten so bad I decided to call it quits and just sold off our karts this past summer. While I realize tracks have operational costs to consider, they've grown excessively greedy. First off it's difficult to have a tire sponsor because tracks are now forcing you to run a Spec tire they sell and even if your sponsored by that same brand of rubber, you cannot run sponsor supplied tires and must purchase a set at the track. Then if your weekend ends early due to technical issues or a broken part or something in the drivetrain, and you never got to run the tires you bought, you cannot run any of those sets at a future date. I've had brand new untouched sets still in shrink wrap with the track's label and was not allowed to run them. Instead I had to go back into my pocket and purchase another set for myself and my son. With practices like these in place, the days of shoestring budget drivers the likes of a Lewis Hamilton making it through to the bigtime will become even far fewer and in between.

The most impressive guy to make it to the bigtime to me is far and away Nelson Piquet Sr. His father was not at all supportive of his desire to become a race car driver and with no money he apprenticed as a mechanic for little to no pay and learned to turn wrenches for himself, and that's how he was able to compete in and run up through the ranks. However, his efforts didn't go unnoticed and he garnered enough attention that he received support in the way of parts, and eventually a small personal sponsorship. From there F1 teams came a knockin' on his door.

The one guy in recent memory who didn't get an opportunity in F1 that I can recall was not due to funds, but politics and timing. Valentino Rossi.
It irks me to read a decade later that Rossi declined F1 due to his love for 2 wheels when many of us have read about the inner turmoil plaguing the Prancing Horse during that time.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:23 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Di Resta (Not far off Hulk caliber who now leads a works team)
Vergne (Not far off Dan on a Sunday who is Top 5 on the grid, and one of the best in the wet I've seen)
Frijns (Should've got a chance)
Rossi (Should've got a fair chance)

That'll do for now but they're all pretty recent. Be interesting to see who I've forgotten about.

These are pretty good, although I think Vergne got a better opportunity than most and could have succeeded had he performed better. I think he can certainly claim to be an F1 caliber driver but he cannot claim to be WDC material with his lack of single-lap pace relative to teammates.

Frijns is a really good one as far as being shut out due to lack of funding. There is a crisis right now for young drivers looking to race in F1. The opportunities simply aren't there without the financial connections to make them happen. Frijns was certainly a high caliber prospect and he simply never got a shot.

I would argue that Rossi's performance was good enough to continue. He was clearly superior to his teammate and yet it didn't seem to count for anything.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 6:31 pm 
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Rossi tops the list for me, at least in recent years.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:00 pm 
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Frijns and Wickens are both good calls too.

If we take drivers who never got a shot at F1 at all I think there's a couple in Indy who never got a sniff even at GP2 that could've done well with the right backing. Most notably James Hinchcliffe, some others that I've thought that about in the past but can't think of right now. I kinda of also want to say Ryan Hunter-Reay but I'm not so sure about him.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 7:28 pm 
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sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Di Resta (Not far off Hulk caliber who now leads a works team)
Vergne (Not far off Dan on a Sunday who is Top 5 on the grid, and one of the best in the wet I've seen)
Frijns (Should've got a chance)
Rossi (Should've got a fair chance)

That'll do for now but they're all pretty recent. Be interesting to see who I've forgotten about.

These are pretty good, although I think Vergne got a better opportunity than most and could have succeeded had he performed better. I think he can certainly claim to be an F1 caliber driver but he cannot claim to be WDC material with his lack of single-lap pace relative to teammates.

Frijns is a really good one as far as being shut out due to lack of funding. There is a crisis right now for young drivers looking to race in F1. The opportunities simply aren't there without the financial connections to make them happen. Frijns was certainly a high caliber prospect and he simply never got a shot.

I would argue that Rossi's performance was good enough to continue. He was clearly superior to his teammate and yet it didn't seem to count for anything.


Yeah agree about Jev's lack of one lap pace and the chance he got was a good one as well.

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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:36 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Frijns and Wickens are both good calls too.

If we take drivers who never got a shot at F1 at all I think there's a couple in Indy who never got a sniff even at GP2 that could've done well with the right backing. Most notably James Hinchcliffe, some others that I've thought that about in the past but can't think of right now. I kinda of also want to say Ryan Hunter-Reay but I'm not so sure about him.


So many from Indy. I would add Dixon and Franchitti to the mix as well.


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PostPosted: Tue Feb 13, 2018 9:29 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Di Resta (Not far off Hulk caliber who now leads a works team)
Vergne (Not far off Dan on a Sunday who is Top 5 on the grid, and one of the best in the wet I've seen)
Frijns (Should've got a chance)
Rossi (Should've got a fair chance)

That'll do for now but they're all pretty recent. Be interesting to see who I've forgotten about.

These are pretty good, although I think Vergne got a better opportunity than most and could have succeeded had he performed better. I think he can certainly claim to be an F1 caliber driver but he cannot claim to be WDC material with his lack of single-lap pace relative to teammates.

Frijns is a really good one as far as being shut out due to lack of funding. There is a crisis right now for young drivers looking to race in F1. The opportunities simply aren't there without the financial connections to make them happen. Frijns was certainly a high caliber prospect and he simply never got a shot.

I would argue that Rossi's performance was good enough to continue. He was clearly superior to his teammate and yet it didn't seem to count for anything.


Yeah agree about Jev's lack of one lap pace and the chance he got was a good one as well.


JEV's one lap pace issue is an odd one. In FE he has better in quali than in races so it's probably something he could have improved.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 12:13 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
sandman1347 wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:
Di Resta (Not far off Hulk caliber who now leads a works team)
Vergne (Not far off Dan on a Sunday who is Top 5 on the grid, and one of the best in the wet I've seen)
Frijns (Should've got a chance)
Rossi (Should've got a fair chance)

That'll do for now but they're all pretty recent. Be interesting to see who I've forgotten about.

These are pretty good, although I think Vergne got a better opportunity than most and could have succeeded had he performed better. I think he can certainly claim to be an F1 caliber driver but he cannot claim to be WDC material with his lack of single-lap pace relative to teammates.

Frijns is a really good one as far as being shut out due to lack of funding. There is a crisis right now for young drivers looking to race in F1. The opportunities simply aren't there without the financial connections to make them happen. Frijns was certainly a high caliber prospect and he simply never got a shot.

I would argue that Rossi's performance was good enough to continue. He was clearly superior to his teammate and yet it didn't seem to count for anything.


Yeah agree about Jev's lack of one lap pace and the chance he got was a good one as well.


JEV's one lap pace issue is an odd one. In FE he has better in quali than in races so it's probably something he could have improved.


Yeah it could maybe also be just a tyre issue with the Pirelli's like Webber often had,who knows. Maybe he had trouble getting them in the right range or with making them last the full lap and it could be a different story on FE's.

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:12 am 
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I think with JEV it wasn't so much a lack of money. More that seats just ran out. That being said, if he had a load of money he would still be in F1.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 7:48 am 
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What's the name of that Italian guy that Schumacher praised so much? He never made it to F1, but was very gifted.

Also, Pascal Wehrlein. Much better than solid Ericsson. I hope he comes back, else, it's a great shame already,

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:32 am 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
What's the name of that Italian guy that Schumacher praised so much? He never made it to F1, but was very gifted.

Also, Pascal Wehrlein. Much better than solid Ericsson. I hope he comes back, else, it's a great shame already,


I agree Wehrlein is more deserving than Ericsson, but I really don't think there is a massive difference between them. The main thing I would say is that Ericsson makes more mistakes. In several races over the past 2 years, every time Ericsson has looked to be close to the points, something usually doesn't go his way that is out of his control. Other that that he has crashed out in 3 races this year (which clearly is a negative point), I would say his and Wehrlein's pace is very similar. They were one of the closest pair team mates in terms of the average qualifying type gap over the season. There have been plenty of races where Ericsson he has looked a bit better. 3 possible examples of where he may have scored points were Spain, Baku and Mexico this year. He wasn't as good as Wehrlein in Spain, but given he finished 11th on a strategy that was clearly worse given the situation, I think he could have been 10th or maybe 9th if on an identical strategy to Wehrlein. Although that only will have worked if there was a safety car I think. Then in Baku, I can only say Ericsson was more deserving of that point than Wehrlein. And in Mexico, he was running 9th at one stage and it looked pretty likely he would just about manage a points finish if he engine didn't blow up. Then last year in Mexico, Ericsson was the closest out of either of these 2 drivers to the points without multiple retirements clearly helping him get there.

My main point is that I feel too many people think Werhlein is significently better than Ericsson when I just don't see that is the case at all. He's only a bit better in my view. But What I can agree on is he certainly deserves to be in F1.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:44 am 
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Justin Wilson, not only in F1 but in indycar too, always winning races in midfield teams in indycar but never really getting a decent ride mainly due to lack of sponsorship money. Replaced in F1 by a massivly inferior Christian Klien at Jaguar due to Klein coming with a load of i think red bull money.


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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:54 am 
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Frijns is the first one that comes to mind. Felix Rosenqvist. Tom Kristensen

I believed Adam Carroll could go quick in anything. He always struggled for funding. Alas his years-later return to single seaters in FE proved his best days were behind him

Oh and the great Tommy Byrne! That Crash and Burn documentary was a wild ride

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PostPosted: Wed Feb 14, 2018 5:51 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
What's the name of that Italian guy that Schumacher praised so much? He never made it to F1, but was very gifted.

Also, Pascal Wehrlein. Much better than solid Ericsson. I hope he comes back, else, it's a great shame already,


Giorgio Pantano? Probably not the guy you're thinking of but both Alonso and Nico R praised him to the hilt in Karts, called him the best but he did make it to F1 with Jordan for a few races before calling it quits.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:16 am 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
What's the name of that Italian guy that Schumacher praised so much? He never made it to F1, but was very gifted.

Also, Pascal Wehrlein. Much better than solid Ericsson. I hope he comes back, else, it's a great shame already,


Giorgio Pantano? Probably not the guy you're thinking of but both Alonso and Nico R praised him to the hilt in Karts, called him the best but he did make it to F1 with Jordan for a few races before calling it quits.

Growing up in Ireland, there was little to no insight into anything beyond F1 and wherever else the Irish might be doing ok at racing - be it rally, motorbikes, etc. The main state broadcaster made us aware of some up and coming drivers like Damien Faulkner and so on but nothing concrete. I even remember the Mondello Park circuit owner getting quizzed about doubling the length, width, entry, parking to & from (basically ruining his life) to sell themselves for a series where Jordan were coming 3rd. Ridiculous stuff

Giorgio Pantano was a nobody to us when he signed on. This was clearly a repeat of the early 90s cash grabs, sticking a valuable Italian driver in when they could. When eventually the money dried up and Pantano was gone, it was no big deal really

Later in life, learning what that man was capable of in the most basic of racing machines (where pure talent shines through)... talk about an eye opener. Everything Nico Rosberg said blew our minds! It was out of this world finding out just how incredible a karter Pantano was. He conquered GP2 later on but the F1 ship had long since sailed

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 11:22 am 
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If we are been really honest, some of the worlds best drivers didn't get anywhere near F1 due to funds and other circumstances. That's the reality of this sport, there is 20 seats for a world of 7 billion people.

One name I would add to the conversation is Senna's karting rival, Terry Fullerton.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 17, 2018 4:36 pm 
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Lotus49 wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
What's the name of that Italian guy that Schumacher praised so much? He never made it to F1, but was very gifted.

Also, Pascal Wehrlein. Much better than solid Ericsson. I hope he comes back, else, it's a great shame already,


Giorgio Pantano? Probably not the guy you're thinking of but both Alonso and Nico R praised him to the hilt in Karts, called him the best but he did make it to F1 with Jordan for a few races before calling it quits.

Vincenzo Sospiri. That the name of the guy Schumacher was singling out, pouting it together with Ayrton Senna. There are indeed many links about this particular choice if you google Sospiri Schumacher.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:36 pm 
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Does Frijns really count on this list?
He got offered a place in Red Bull's driver program didn't he? That would've come with a Toro Rosso seat, and likely 2-3 years in F1.

But... he turned it down.

Normally, lack of funds is outside of a driver's direct control, but in this instance Frijns had the chance right there!


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PostPosted: Sun Feb 18, 2018 7:59 pm 
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Lentulus wrote:
Does Frijns really count on this list?
He got offered a place in Red Bull's driver program didn't he? That would've come with a Toro Rosso seat, and likely 2-3 years in F1.

But... he turned it down.

Normally, lack of funds is outside of a driver's direct control, but in this instance Frijns had the chance right there!


That's one of these F1 myths that refuse to die -

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/frij ... ll-chance/


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 19, 2018 8:42 am 
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Di Resta is the stand out for me.

Again, disclaimer, some clear Scottish favouritism here...

But I thought he had a fairly solid career, performed well against a guy now leading a works team, had a really really bad run of results at exactly the wrong time and found himself out because Perez / Hulk suddenly became an option and he had nowhere else to go - possibly a result of his recent very bad run of results.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 11, 2018 9:02 pm 
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Wickens should have won his debut IndyCar race today. First time racing single seaters in about 6 years as well. His loss to F1 is a crying shame.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:07 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Wickens should have won his debut IndyCar race today. First time racing single seaters in about 6 years as well. His loss to F1 is a crying shame.


i don't know anything about wickens past, but he did a fine job yesterday. rossi botched it. too bad for wickens.


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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 1:55 pm 
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From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 2:24 pm 
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Lt. Drebin wrote:
From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.


As a Belgian, Gachot's story in particular is one of "what could/would have been". What a stupid way to lose a good racing seat. But then also, how would Schumacher have entered F1 if he hadn't had Gachot's seat conveniently freed up. No doubt he would have gotten in F1 but when, in what team, and what would it have meant for his future years?


Also I always thought Boutsen unfairly lost his chance of a big break when Williams was just about to come good. But that wasn't really due to a lack of funds so doesn't qualify here.

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 12, 2018 3:34 pm 
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mds wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.


As a Belgian, Gachot's story in particular is one of "what could/would have been". What a stupid way to lose a good racing seat. But then also, how would Schumacher have entered F1 if he hadn't had Gachot's seat conveniently freed up. No doubt he would have gotten in F1 but when, in what team, and what would it have meant for his future years?


Also I always thought Boutsen unfairly lost his chance of a big break when Williams was just about to come good. But that wasn't really due to a lack of funds so doesn't qualify here.


I'm sorry, but Gachot came back after a few months and raced again in F1. He did ok to get a Monaco points finish, but never impressed any of the big teams to give him a seat. Surely his adventure didn't help, but he wasn't booted form F1 after the incident, he still had a chance to prove his highly tooted talent


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:03 am 
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Siao7 wrote:
mds wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.


As a Belgian, Gachot's story in particular is one of "what could/would have been". What a stupid way to lose a good racing seat. But then also, how would Schumacher have entered F1 if he hadn't had Gachot's seat conveniently freed up. No doubt he would have gotten in F1 but when, in what team, and what would it have meant for his future years?


Also I always thought Boutsen unfairly lost his chance of a big break when Williams was just about to come good. But that wasn't really due to a lack of funds so doesn't qualify here.


I'm sorry, but Gachot came back after a few months and raced again in F1. He did ok to get a Monaco points finish, but never impressed any of the big teams to give him a seat. Surely his adventure didn't help, but he wasn't booted form F1 after the incident, he still had a chance to prove his highly tooted talent


Sure but I wasn't making the point of how a great talent was lost, merely reflecting on the impact the stupid incident had for two drivers, one who had a pretty solid seat and wasn't doing that badly, and another future superstar who maybe would have had to go through a different and/or more difficult route to a top team.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 9:32 am 
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mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mds wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.


As a Belgian, Gachot's story in particular is one of "what could/would have been". What a stupid way to lose a good racing seat. But then also, how would Schumacher have entered F1 if he hadn't had Gachot's seat conveniently freed up. No doubt he would have gotten in F1 but when, in what team, and what would it have meant for his future years?


Also I always thought Boutsen unfairly lost his chance of a big break when Williams was just about to come good. But that wasn't really due to a lack of funds so doesn't qualify here.


I'm sorry, but Gachot came back after a few months and raced again in F1. He did ok to get a Monaco points finish, but never impressed any of the big teams to give him a seat. Surely his adventure didn't help, but he wasn't booted form F1 after the incident, he still had a chance to prove his highly tooted talent


Sure but I wasn't making the point of how a great talent was lost, merely reflecting on the impact the stupid incident had for two drivers, one who had a pretty solid seat and wasn't doing that badly, and another future superstar who maybe would have had to go through a different and/or more difficult route to a top team.


From around that era, maybe a little before Gachot, one name stands out for me as one who I would have liked to see in a more competitive team.

Pierluigi Martini.

I think he had the potential to do ok in a good team

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:22 pm 
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mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mds wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.


As a Belgian, Gachot's story in particular is one of "what could/would have been". What a stupid way to lose a good racing seat. But then also, how would Schumacher have entered F1 if he hadn't had Gachot's seat conveniently freed up. No doubt he would have gotten in F1 but when, in what team, and what would it have meant for his future years?


Also I always thought Boutsen unfairly lost his chance of a big break when Williams was just about to come good. But that wasn't really due to a lack of funds so doesn't qualify here.


I'm sorry, but Gachot came back after a few months and raced again in F1. He did ok to get a Monaco points finish, but never impressed any of the big teams to give him a seat. Surely his adventure didn't help, but he wasn't booted form F1 after the incident, he still had a chance to prove his highly tooted talent


Sure but I wasn't making the point of how a great talent was lost, merely reflecting on the impact the stupid incident had for two drivers, one who had a pretty solid seat and wasn't doing that badly, and another future superstar who maybe would have had to go through a different and/or more difficult route to a top team.


I misread you then, apologies mds. Gachot is usually remembered as the guy who went to jail and gave MSC his chance, ignoring that he actually came back shortly after and did race again without achieving any success.


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:37 pm 
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Siao7 wrote:
I misread you then, apologies mds.


None needed!

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 13, 2018 12:55 pm 
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Jezza13 wrote:
mds wrote:
Siao7 wrote:
mds wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
From the past, I have an impression that certain drivers didn't get the right chance, among them Alex Caffi, Olivier Grouillard, Philippe Streiff, Stefano Modeno, Bertran Gachot, Eric Van de Poele.


As a Belgian, Gachot's story in particular is one of "what could/would have been". What a stupid way to lose a good racing seat. But then also, how would Schumacher have entered F1 if he hadn't had Gachot's seat conveniently freed up. No doubt he would have gotten in F1 but when, in what team, and what would it have meant for his future years?


Also I always thought Boutsen unfairly lost his chance of a big break when Williams was just about to come good. But that wasn't really due to a lack of funds so doesn't qualify here.


I'm sorry, but Gachot came back after a few months and raced again in F1. He did ok to get a Monaco points finish, but never impressed any of the big teams to give him a seat. Surely his adventure didn't help, but he wasn't booted form F1 after the incident, he still had a chance to prove his highly tooted talent


Sure but I wasn't making the point of how a great talent was lost, merely reflecting on the impact the stupid incident had for two drivers, one who had a pretty solid seat and wasn't doing that badly, and another future superstar who maybe would have had to go through a different and/or more difficult route to a top team.


From around that era, maybe a little before Gachot, one name stands out for me as one who I would have liked to see in a more competitive team.

Pierluigi Martini.

I think he had the potential to do ok in a good team

Martini had a great momentum in 1990, but never looked the same after he broke the chassis in the qualifications for San Marino GP in a heavy accident. Two years later, he had twice 4 places and that was all.

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