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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:40 am 
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mds wrote:
Lentulus wrote:
Also, I'm glad that clause has found its way back in. I still think the 40 points thing is a stupid idea (though I now appear to be a minority).


I still think the 40 points thing, as well as the age limit, was a solution to a problem that didn't exist. And it was horribly skewed initially, which basically killed off FR3.5. This was later corrected a bit but too little too late. I had less issues with the points system since it became a bit more balanced (just a bit), and FR3.5 is dead anyway...

But to now include that clause again is just daft, plain daft. It means that the whole idea of putting the 40 points system in place was for nothing. It also means that FR3.5 has been killed off for nothing. And lastly it also means that the pure pay drivers without much talent have a good way to get into F1 again.

Completely agree, especially with the bit in bold. Both the points and the age limit are for me indicators that someone in the FIA has too much time on their hands and appear to be tasked with dreaming up legislation for the sake of it.

But, sadly, it also reinforces the point made earlier that Todt's FIA presidency has been a disaster for F1.


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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 10:00 am 
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The superlicence points table has been revised: http://www.f1fanatic.co.uk/2017/09/21/f ... -for-2018/

Notable changes:
- F2 has been added as a new category, scoring a bit higher from P3 onwards. This means Luca Ghiotto will now also be eligible, given he keeps fourth place. Same for Markelov, if he keeps third. Especially Markelov's case shows that the series is getting even more attractive to spend a few years in it and end up P3-P4 on experience.
- Some series have been downrated. Probably justified in case of F-E and Euro F3, maybe WEC. Highly questionable for Super Formula.
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?
- A good number of series will only count points obtained on FIA-homologated tracks. This has big consequences for drivers in e.g. IndyCar and Super Formula.

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:01 pm 
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Are there any comprehensive lists of FIA homologated tracks floating about?

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PostPosted: Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:55 pm 
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RaggedMan wrote:
Are there any comprehensive lists of FIA homologated tracks floating about?


Read somewhere that of the entire IndyCar season up until now, only two tracks qualify :)

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 7:00 am 
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mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:10 pm 
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mds wrote:
mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway, I thought it was also rumored that GP3 will merge into F3?

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 9:31 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway


There were not. FR3.5 and GP2 coexisted for a long time without problems and with healthy driver count before the FIA decided to push its own agenda.

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PostPosted: Fri Nov 17, 2017 10:27 pm 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway


There were not. FR3.5 and GP2 coexisted for a long time without problems and with healthy driver count before the FIA decided to push its own agenda.


:thumbup:


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 1:41 am 
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mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway


There were not. FR3.5 and GP2 coexisted for a long time without problems and with healthy driver count before the FIA decided to push its own agenda.

F2, FR3.5, GP3, F3, FR2.0, F4, there was too many.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 2:02 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway


There were not. FR3.5 and GP2 coexisted for a long time without problems and with healthy driver count before the FIA decided to push its own agenda.

F2, FR3.5, GP3, F3, FR2.0, F4, there was too many.

You can't hold entry level national championships against F2 and compare them directly. They serve different [complementary] purposes.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:01 am 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
mds wrote:
- Meanwhile, FIA continues its crusade against FR3.5/FV8 3.5. Not that it matters much anymore, but still. 20 points to gain for winning it basically will see to it that the talents will not flow from F3 to FV8 3.5. One year and it'll be dead?


So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway


There were not. FR3.5 and GP2 coexisted for a long time without problems and with healthy driver count before the FIA decided to push its own agenda.

F2, FR3.5, GP3, F3, FR2.0, F4, there was too many.


Only two at the second tier which were GP2 and FR3.5. Even if you were correct it's pretty unethical for the FIA to kill off a thriving championship for political reasons.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:10 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
So, not even one year. FV8 3.5, formerly FR3.5, is officially calling it quits after the end of the season.
https://www.autosport.com/fv8+3.5/news/ ... 017-season

Congratulations FIA, mission accomplished.

There was too many junior classes anyway


There were not. FR3.5 and GP2 coexisted for a long time without problems and with healthy driver count before the FIA decided to push its own agenda.

F2, FR3.5, GP3, F3, FR2.0, F4, there was too many.


Only two at the second tier which were GP2 and FR3.5. Even if you were correct it's pretty unethical for the FIA to kill off a thriving championship for political reasons.

Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:44 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.


Why not have two second tier championships?

Surely there needs to be a funnel or in the end everyone who competes in F3 will have to compete in F2 in the end just to make the numbers up.

It works differently in the case of Moto 2 and Moto 3 because some riders make a career at that level.

With F2 being very expensive it made sense for less backed drivers to have a cheaper option. There have been stand out junior talents in the last decade who simply couldn't afford GP2.


Last edited by mikeyg123 on Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 9:45 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Only two at the second tier which were GP2 and FR3.5. Even if you were correct it's pretty unethical for the FIA to kill off a thriving championship for political reasons.

Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.

Because there aren't always enough seats for everyone if you only have one? Because some teams don't have sponsorship routes through the main series, and would prefer to put drivers through the other series instead?

Really, as long as both are healthy, why not have two?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:37 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.


Why not have two second tier championships?

Surely there needs to be a funnel or in the end everyone who competes in F3 will have to compete in F2 in the end just to make the numbers up.

It works differently in the case of Moto 2 and Moto 3 because some riders make a career at that level.

With F2 being very expensive it made sense for less backed drivers to have a cheaper option. There have been stand out junior talents in the last decade who simply couldn't afford GP2.

Which drivers have actually gone from FR3.5 to F1?

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 10:51 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Only two at the second tier which were GP2 and FR3.5. Even if you were correct it's pretty unethical for the FIA to kill off a thriving championship for political reasons.

Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.

Because there aren't always enough seats for everyone if you only have one? Because some teams don't have sponsorship routes through the main series, and would prefer to put drivers through the other series instead?

Really, as long as both are healthy, why not have two?

Ross Brawn wants a structured ladder were F2 is the last step before F1 and the best will be given seats in F1, he wants drivers to go up the ladder based on talent alone and I believe in that respect that drivers will be helped, a future Frijns doesn't win 3 titles on the bounce and then basically his career stalls.

I don't understand how in fragmented series were drivers basically avoid one another how you determine who are the best drivers, the only FR3.5 drivers that went to F1 were already backed by F1 teams in the first place, the ones that weren't like your Wickens and Frijns they found out that winning the title meant very little to F1 teams and their future single seater career.

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 18, 2017 11:38 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn wants a structured ladder were F2 is the last step before F1 and the best will be given seats in F1, he wants drivers to go up the ladder based on talent alone and I believe in that respect that drivers will be helped, a future Frijns doesn't win 3 titles on the bounce and then basically his career stalls.

I don't understand how in fragmented series were drivers basically avoid one another how you determine who are the best drivers, the only FR3.5 drivers that went to F1 were already backed by F1 teams in the first place, the ones that weren't like your Wickens and Frijns they found out that winning the title meant very little to F1 teams and their future single seater career.

It's a pipe dream, and it will never happen. How is he going to make the teams take the best drivers? Just because the best maybe end up in F2 (and I'm not sure that will happen), nothing is making teams take them.

If anything, I think having this single path to F1 will make F2 seats more expensive and harder to come by for good drivers on a low budget.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 7:18 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Only two at the second tier which were GP2 and FR3.5. Even if you were correct it's pretty unethical for the FIA to kill off a thriving championship for political reasons.

Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.

Because there aren't always enough seats for everyone if you only have one? Because some teams don't have sponsorship routes through the main series, and would prefer to put drivers through the other series instead?

Really, as long as both are healthy, why not have two?

Ross Brawn wants a structured ladder were F2 is the last step before F1 and the best will be given seats in F1, he wants drivers to go up the ladder based on talent alone and I believe in that respect that drivers will be helped, a future Frijns doesn't win 3 titles on the bounce and then basically his career stalls.

I don't understand how in fragmented series were drivers basically avoid one another how you determine who are the best drivers, the only FR3.5 drivers that went to F1 were already backed by F1 teams in the first place, the ones that weren't like your Wickens and Frijns they found out that winning the title meant very little to F1 teams and their future single seater career.



BIB, how can that happen with only one championship at each tier? Surely nearly every driver who competes in F3 will have to compete in F2 just to make up the grid.

Really it should be more like a pyramid with F1 at the top. What would happen to the likes of Frijns and Wickens now? There career just stalls a level earlier. They won't be able to get out of F3 now. At least with competing cheaper series they have chance to put themselves on show and try and get some sponsors.


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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:42 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Ross Brawn wants a structured ladder were F2 is the last step before F1 and the best will be given seats in F1, he wants drivers to go up the ladder based on talent alone and I believe in that respect that drivers will be helped, a future Frijns doesn't win 3 titles on the bounce and then basically his career stalls.

I don't understand how in fragmented series were drivers basically avoid one another how you determine who are the best drivers, the only FR3.5 drivers that went to F1 were already backed by F1 teams in the first place, the ones that weren't like your Wickens and Frijns they found out that winning the title meant very little to F1 teams and their future single seater career.

It's a pipe dream, and it will never happen. How is he going to make the teams take the best drivers? Just because the best maybe end up in F2 (and I'm not sure that will happen), nothing is making teams take them.

If anything, I think having this single path to F1 will make F2 seats more expensive and harder to come by for good drivers on a low budget.

They are going to have more teams in F1, the new teams will have some drivers sponsored by Liberty Media or the F1 pot perhaps to be more exact, these being the cream of the F2 field.

Brawn has stated the desire for drivers getting into F1 needs to be based on talent rather than money.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:45 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Only two at the second tier which were GP2 and FR3.5. Even if you were correct it's pretty unethical for the FIA to kill off a thriving championship for political reasons.

Why do you need two second tier Championships?

MotoGP has a defined structure with Moto2 and Moto3, It's not fragmented, a structure of F1, F2, F3, FR2.0 and F4 is enough.

Because there aren't always enough seats for everyone if you only have one? Because some teams don't have sponsorship routes through the main series, and would prefer to put drivers through the other series instead?

Really, as long as both are healthy, why not have two?

Ross Brawn wants a structured ladder were F2 is the last step before F1 and the best will be given seats in F1, he wants drivers to go up the ladder based on talent alone and I believe in that respect that drivers will be helped, a future Frijns doesn't win 3 titles on the bounce and then basically his career stalls.

I don't understand how in fragmented series were drivers basically avoid one another how you determine who are the best drivers, the only FR3.5 drivers that went to F1 were already backed by F1 teams in the first place, the ones that weren't like your Wickens and Frijns they found out that winning the title meant very little to F1 teams and their future single seater career.



BIB, how can that happen with only one championship at each tier? Surely nearly every driver who competes in F3 will have to compete in F2 just to make up the grid.

Really it should be more like a pyramid with F1 at the top. What would happen to the likes of Frijns and Wickens now? There career just stalls a level earlier. They won't be able to get out of F3 now. At least with competing cheaper series they have chance to put themselves on show and try and get some sponsors.

I believe the model would see future driver like Wickens and Frijns being promoted as the prize for being the Champion.

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PostPosted: Sun Nov 19, 2017 5:59 pm 
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Why? Who pays? Surely it it's just one series per tier then everyone will make it to F2 if they can afford it? Otherwise where will the drivers in F2 come from.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 12:50 am 
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pokerman wrote:
Brawn has stated the desire for drivers getting into F1 needs to be based on talent rather than money.

I think there's a big gulf between what Brawn wants and what will actually happen. Maybe I'm just cynical.

If FOM is actually willing to fully pay for the ride of all lower-tier champions into the next tier, that's one thing (and it would help). But how much would they be paying? There's no such thing as the 'cost to run' in F1; if the F2 champion - with FOM sponsorship - is going up against Lance Stroll, is his sponsorship going to balance against Stroll's? No, of course it won't. And if the F2 champion is viewed as mediocre, like some in the past have been, nobody's going to take them anyway.

I personally agree that the system should work more like a funnel, getting narrower at the top. More seats for drivers to prove themselves and be noticed is always a good thing as far as I can see.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:29 am 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Why? Who pays? Surely it it's just one series per tier then everyone will make it to F2 if they can afford it? Otherwise where will the drivers in F2 come from.

All the F2 drivers do not simple just disappear that are already competing, Brawn wants a proper structure in place, how exactly that would operate I can only guess but he is keen for the very best drivers to progress through the tiers.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 2:34 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
Brawn has stated the desire for drivers getting into F1 needs to be based on talent rather than money.

I think there's a big gulf between what Brawn wants and what will actually happen. Maybe I'm just cynical.

If FOM is actually willing to fully pay for the ride of all lower-tier champions into the next tier, that's one thing (and it would help). But how much would they be paying? There's no such thing as the 'cost to run' in F1; if the F2 champion - with FOM sponsorship - is going up against Lance Stroll, is his sponsorship going to balance against Stroll's? No, of course it won't. And if the F2 champion is viewed as mediocre, like some in the past have been, nobody's going to take them anyway.

I personally agree that the system should work more like a funnel, getting narrower at the top. More seats for drivers to prove themselves and be noticed is always a good thing as far as I can see.

Like I said they are looking to add more teams into F1, these new teams will accommodate the FOM backed drivers.

I'm not sure what you mean by more seats to get noticed in, which FR3.5 drivers got picked up by F1 teams?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 4:39 am 
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pokerman wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by more seats to get noticed in, which FR3.5 drivers got picked up by F1 teams?

I don't have a comprehensive list, but Sainz and Magnussen at least went straight from FR3.5 champion to F1 driver. FR3.5 was also the highest level Ricciardo competed at, I believe.

I just don't really see the point of having a single path to F1. Why do we need that? I know the FIA wants it so they can control the path better and promote their own series, but I don't see how it's objectively a good thing. FOM can sponsor talented drivers whether or not we have only one tier two series.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 7:11 am 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by more seats to get noticed in, which FR3.5 drivers got picked up by F1 teams?

I don't have a comprehensive list, but Sainz and Magnussen at least went straight from FR3.5 champion to F1 driver. FR3.5 was also the highest level Ricciardo competed at, I believe.

I just don't really see the point of having a single path to F1. Why do we need that? I know the FIA wants it so they can control the path better and promote their own series, but I don't see how it's objectively a good thing. FOM can sponsor talented drivers whether or not we have only one tier two series.


Kubica, Di Resta, Vettel, Vergne, Alguersuari etc.


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:15 pm 
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Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by more seats to get noticed in, which FR3.5 drivers got picked up by F1 teams?

I don't have a comprehensive list, but Sainz and Magnussen at least went straight from FR3.5 champion to F1 driver. FR3.5 was also the highest level Ricciardo competed at, I believe.

I just don't really see the point of having a single path to F1. Why do we need that? I know the FIA wants it so they can control the path better and promote their own series, but I don't see how it's objectively a good thing. FOM can sponsor talented drivers whether or not we have only one tier two series.

These drivers were backed by F1 teams, some didn't even have to win the FR3.5 title before being promoted to F1 whereas Champions like Aleshin who beat Ricciardo (Red Bull), Frijns who beat Bianchi (Ferrari), and Wickens who beat Vergne (Red Bull), never got a chance at F1 and we see them now racing in Indycars, FE and DTM.

Splintered series mean the best drivers being able to avoid one another so who do the FOM define as the drivers that should be helped, I would guess there would be some kind of limit to the amount of drivers they would be looking to help which would be not helped by having too many series?

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 20, 2017 1:20 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
Exediron wrote:
pokerman wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by more seats to get noticed in, which FR3.5 drivers got picked up by F1 teams?

I don't have a comprehensive list, but Sainz and Magnussen at least went straight from FR3.5 champion to F1 driver. FR3.5 was also the highest level Ricciardo competed at, I believe.

I just don't really see the point of having a single path to F1. Why do we need that? I know the FIA wants it so they can control the path better and promote their own series, but I don't see how it's objectively a good thing. FOM can sponsor talented drivers whether or not we have only one tier two series.


Kubica, Di Resta, Vettel, Vergne, Alguersuari etc.

di Resta didn't race in FR3.5, Kubica I would say is the only one without the backing of a F1 team. Vettel, Vergne and Algueruari were backed by Red Bull and perhaps tellingly not one of them won the FR3.5 title but still got promoted to F1, whilst the actual champions were left on the wayside.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:20 pm 
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Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:38 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.

My point being that it wasn't a route into F1 so was more of an accessory, also all this talk of drivers needing to be millionaires, Ocon didn't come from money but was able to compete in F3.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 3:18 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.

My point being that it wasn't a route into F1 so was more of an accessory, also all this talk of drivers needing to be millionaires, Ocon didn't come from money but was able to compete in F3.


After it merges with GP3 drivers like him won't. If you're not picked up in F4 you'll need to be backed by multi millionaires to move on.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:05 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.

My point being that it wasn't a route into F1 so was more of an accessory, also all this talk of drivers needing to be millionaires, Ocon didn't come from money but was able to compete in F3.


After it merges with GP3 drivers like him won't. If you're not picked up in F4 you'll need to be backed by multi millionaires to move on.

I thought F3 was the expensive category?

The only category that's folded is FR3.5 and not one driver in recent years has made the jump from there to F1 based purely on talent so I don't understand all the grief?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:51 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.

My point being that it wasn't a route into F1 so was more of an accessory, also all this talk of drivers needing to be millionaires, Ocon didn't come from money but was able to compete in F3.


After it merges with GP3 drivers like him won't. If you're not picked up in F4 you'll need to be backed by multi millionaires to move on.

I thought F3 was the expensive category?

The only category that's folded is FR3.5 and not one driver in recent years has made the jump from there to F1 based purely on talent so I don't understand all the grief?


F3 is OK now. When it merges with GP3 the costs will go up massively. The likes of Ocon's single seater career would have been over before it began.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:23 pm 
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mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
pokerman wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.

My point being that it wasn't a route into F1 so was more of an accessory, also all this talk of drivers needing to be millionaires, Ocon didn't come from money but was able to compete in F3.


After it merges with GP3 drivers like him won't. If you're not picked up in F4 you'll need to be backed by multi millionaires to move on.

I thought F3 was the expensive category?

The only category that's folded is FR3.5 and not one driver in recent years has made the jump from there to F1 based purely on talent so I don't understand all the grief?


F3 is OK now. When it merges with GP3 the costs will go up massively. The likes of Ocon's single seater career would have been over before it began.

We are talking about F3 were Stroll basically bought the title, I heard that drivers left F3 to go to GP3 because they couldn't compete with that level of spending.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 30, 2017 2:57 pm 
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As I'm sure you're aware Stroll is not the norm. So what's good about less funded drivers now having less opportunity to obtain funding?


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:42 pm 
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mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 2:51 pm 
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Also, I hate this reversed grid nonsense in F2 and GP3. It just makes some lucky average drivers look better. Have as much proper qualifying sessions as you have races!


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:18 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:19 pm 
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Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
Also, I hate this reversed grid nonsense in F2 and GP3. It just makes some lucky average drivers look better. Have as much proper qualifying sessions as you have races!

I would second that, it gives a chance to blow up the results of average drivers giving them false wins and podiums.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:33 pm 
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pokerman wrote:
Paolo_Lasardi wrote:
mds wrote:
Pokerman, I don't understand the point. How is trying to argue that most drivers who promoted were backed by F1 teams, going to prove that there were too many?

Drivers "could" avoid each other. Sure. But at least drivers had a far cheaper option to run top level series and try to get noticed. The point has been given before, take away FR3.5 and you just keep a terribly expensive F2 series. How is that supposed to help the likes of Frijns? It won't. All it means is that there now will be even less good seats at top level, and the drivers without huge budgets stand even less of a chance of landing a good one.

But in the end, refute this: we had two series, both were healthy, so both could exist just fine. Economically that is the entire proof there weren't too many series.


:thumbup:

I find it sad to see diversity gone and series like FR 3.5 and Euro F3 effectively destroyed. They provided excellent motor racing. And, to add to your reasoning that I wholehertedly support, they provided accessibly monoposto racing for the fans - outside expensive F1 weekends and on accessible circuits at accessible times.

A really sad development.

I did some quick research, FR3.5, F3 and GP3 cost virtually the same to compete in so why all the angst?


The cost of FR3.5 was a lot less than GP2 and the cost of F3 are currently quite a bit less than GP3. Enough to make a difference anyway.


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