planetf1.com

It is currently Sun Jun 25, 2017 11:59 pm

All times are UTC




Post new topic Reply to topic

Will they split within 90 days
Poll runs till Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:26 pm
Yes 54%  54%  [ 31 ]
No 46%  46%  [ 26 ]
Total votes : 57
Author Message
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Well, I have been fighting a rear guard action on here about Mclaren should stick etc, but I think the time has come to admit I am flogging a dead horse (I bet Ron flogged some, he flogged anything else)

Scarbs and Gasgoin are on the bandwagon now and Zac Brown is sounding like he does not have to answer for what he has said in the next meeting, so I have to change my stance from Mclaren should not swap from Honda, To I bet Mclaren will be sorry they swapped from Honda :twisted:

Hands Up, I have to admit it looks like a done deal.

I'm kind of with you, really. For the long term, I think it's a mistake. But I do understand they are running out of time and patience and they need something to happen soon


Dumping Honda is 100% the right thing to do. Hypothetical improvements will always sound better but the reality of what Honda has and can deliver is clear as day.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:32 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7123
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Well, I have been fighting a rear guard action on here about Mclaren should stick etc, but I think the time has come to admit I am flogging a dead horse (I bet Ron flogged some, he flogged anything else)

Scarbs and Gasgoin are on the bandwagon now and Zac Brown is sounding like he does not have to answer for what he has said in the next meeting, so I have to change my stance from Mclaren should not swap from Honda, To I bet Mclaren will be sorry they swapped from Honda :twisted:

Hands Up, I have to admit it looks like a done deal.


I was pretty overjoyed when the news first broke that Honda was reuniting with McLaren. The first F1 team I fell in love with was McLaren Honda from back in the '80s. I had hopes that some of that magic would come back. I never knew things could go so bad. Now, I just want Honda gone. They have ruined McLaren enough. They have shown no ability to improve. None. McLaren needs to move on.



They have been there before with Peugeot and Lamborghini engines and came back to the top, so time will tell


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 2:53 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 2760
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Well, I have been fighting a rear guard action on here about Mclaren should stick etc, but I think the time has come to admit I am flogging a dead horse (I bet Ron flogged some, he flogged anything else)

Scarbs and Gasgoin are on the bandwagon now and Zac Brown is sounding like he does not have to answer for what he has said in the next meeting, so I have to change my stance from Mclaren should not swap from Honda, To I bet Mclaren will be sorry they swapped from Honda :twisted:

Hands Up, I have to admit it looks like a done deal.

I'm kind of with you, really. For the long term, I think it's a mistake. But I do understand they are running out of time and patience and they need something to happen soon


Dumping Honda is 100% the right thing to do. Hypothetical improvements will always sound better but the reality of what Honda has and can deliver is clear as day.


It does appear Honda's issues are more severe than was thought but it's still a big call. I'm really back and forth because there's only 3 more seasons with these engines and then we start again. Having an engine partner for that change will be a big advantage and whatever issues Honda have currently in Sakura you would think they'd be on top of by then if they stay.

As Zoue says long term it's probably best to stay put but the problem for McLaren is the short term is now long term for them because they've already had 3yrs of rubbish so another 3 could lead to departures of sponsors,technical heads,star driver and diminishing standing in the Sport so they're in a different position to say a Williams or Red Bull who could easily watch Honda next year then pick up work status in 2019 if they improve and even if they don't it's only a couple of seasons being by that stage probably as far away as Renault are now worst case scenario.

This current humiliation and/or being dumped by McLaren could lead to a reaction in Honda to either walk or double down. They could open the floodgates on spending and buy full chassis dyno's,get AVL support,go on a recruitment drive and basically do what Marchionne did when he ousted LDM.

So say Williams take a punt, get Work status in 2019 and worse case put up with a couple of poor seasons while all this is being done by Honda in the background while focusing on the new engine for 2021 early. We could be in a situation where Williams with Stroll money+Honda money+New simulator Stroll bought and the rest it buys+Lowe+James Key+Honda new engine could start the next regs on a different planet to McLaren who may not have a works deal or title sponsor, No Alonso by then so limited exposure unless their results are good enough to entice a driver of similar standing and resigned to customer status.

A complete turnaround to say 2010/11 and a disaster for McLaren. It's a huge risk. You could switch Williams with Red Bull if Honda start looking good by the end of 2018. And they already have a full chassis dyno so could cut Honda's time frame for competitiveness somewhat. They also have a batch of former Mercedes engineers to help and have a relationship with AVL Graz already. There's also some growing noise that the performance ceiling is in sight now so Honda won't always be chasing a moving target.

On the other side if they jump then they could be competitive for the next 3 years, keep Alonso,Keep key technical staff, entice new sponsors and try to get a new works partner for 2021. By 2021 you'd think Lando Norris would be in the team, he looks the part, he's British so if the press get behind him like they did with Lewis he could help attract those big sponsors/engine partners and in any case give McLaren similar exposure that Alonso brings and there's even the outside chance Mercedes pull the plug on running a team and go back to being McLaren's partner instead and all is looking rosy again for the future and it doesn't matter what Honda do or who they do it with.

It's a huge decision really, with both short term and long term consequences not just for them but their long term rivals so anyone thinking it's an easy or obvious call haven't thought it through. I'm personally leaning to leave right now as well as I fear Alonso leaving could lead to an exodus of talent in the TD and that's far harder to come back from than just being a customer but I'm fully aware I could be ultimately handing direct rivals a huge stick to beat me with in the future so it's tough.

TL/DR. It's a ****** nightmare decision whatever way you cut it with no guarantees anywhere in sight that whatever you do it won't end up blowing up in your face. I don't envy Zak and McLaren one bit.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 19215
Lotus49 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Zoue wrote:
moby wrote:
Well, I have been fighting a rear guard action on here about Mclaren should stick etc, but I think the time has come to admit I am flogging a dead horse (I bet Ron flogged some, he flogged anything else)

Scarbs and Gasgoin are on the bandwagon now and Zac Brown is sounding like he does not have to answer for what he has said in the next meeting, so I have to change my stance from Mclaren should not swap from Honda, To I bet Mclaren will be sorry they swapped from Honda :twisted:

Hands Up, I have to admit it looks like a done deal.

I'm kind of with you, really. For the long term, I think it's a mistake. But I do understand they are running out of time and patience and they need something to happen soon


Dumping Honda is 100% the right thing to do. Hypothetical improvements will always sound better but the reality of what Honda has and can deliver is clear as day.


It does appear Honda's issues are more severe than was thought but it's still a big call. I'm really back and forth because there's only 3 more seasons with these engines and then we start again. Having an engine partner for that change will be a big advantage and whatever issues Honda have currently in Sakura you would think they'd be on top of by then if they stay.

As Zoue says long term it's probably best to stay put but the problem for McLaren is the short term is now long term for them because they've already had 3yrs of rubbish so another 3 could lead to departures of sponsors,technical heads,star driver and diminishing standing in the Sport so they're in a different position to say a Williams or Red Bull who could easily watch Honda next year then pick up work status in 2019 if they improve and even if they don't it's only a couple of seasons being by that stage probably as far away as Renault are now worst case scenario.

This current humiliation and/or being dumped by McLaren could lead to a reaction in Honda to either walk or double down. They could open the floodgates on spending and buy full chassis dyno's,get AVL support,go on a recruitment drive and basically do what Marchionne did when he ousted LDM.

So say Williams take a punt, get Work status in 2019 and worse case put up with a couple of poor seasons while all this is being done by Honda in the background while focusing on the new engine for 2021 early. We could be in a situation where Williams with Stroll money+Honda money+New simulator Stroll bought and the rest it buys+Lowe+James Key+Honda new engine could start the next regs on a different planet to McLaren who may not have a works deal or title sponsor, No Alonso by then so limited exposure unless their results are good enough to entice a driver of similar standing and resigned to customer status.

A complete turnaround to say 2010/11 and a disaster for McLaren. It's a huge risk. You could switch Williams with Red Bull if Honda start looking good by the end of 2018. And they already have a full chassis dyno so could cut Honda's time frame for competitiveness somewhat. They also have a batch of former Mercedes engineers to help and have a relationship with AVL Graz already. There's also some growing noise that the performance ceiling is in sight now so Honda won't always be chasing a moving target.

On the other side if they jump then they could be competitive for the next 3 years, keep Alonso,Keep key technical staff, entice new sponsors and try to get a new works partner for 2021. By 2021 you'd think Lando Norris would be in the team, he looks the part, he's British so if the press get behind him like they did with Lewis he could help attract those big sponsors/engine partners and in any case give McLaren similar exposure that Alonso brings and there's even the outside chance Mercedes pull the plug on running a team and go back to being McLaren's partner instead and all is looking rosy again for the future and it doesn't matter what Honda do or who they do it with.

It's a huge decision really, with both short term and long term consequences not just for them but their long term rivals so anyone thinking it's an easy or obvious call haven't thought it through. I'm personally leaning to leave right now as well as I fear Alonso leaving could lead to an exodus of talent in the TD and that's far harder to come back from than just being a customer but I'm fully aware I could be ultimately handing direct rivals a huge stick to beat me with in the future so it's tough.

TL/DR. It's a ****** nightmare decision whatever way you cut it with no guarantees anywhere in sight that whatever you do it won't end up blowing up in your face. I don't envy Zak and McLaren one bit.

:thumbup:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:09 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
moby wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
moby wrote:
Well, I have been fighting a rear guard action on here about Mclaren should stick etc, but I think the time has come to admit I am flogging a dead horse (I bet Ron flogged some, he flogged anything else)

Scarbs and Gasgoin are on the bandwagon now and Zac Brown is sounding like he does not have to answer for what he has said in the next meeting, so I have to change my stance from Mclaren should not swap from Honda, To I bet Mclaren will be sorry they swapped from Honda :twisted:

Hands Up, I have to admit it looks like a done deal.


I was pretty overjoyed when the news first broke that Honda was reuniting with McLaren. The first F1 team I fell in love with was McLaren Honda from back in the '80s. I had hopes that some of that magic would come back. I never knew things could go so bad. Now, I just want Honda gone. They have ruined McLaren enough. They have shown no ability to improve. None. McLaren needs to move on.



They have been there before with Peugeot and Lamborghini engines and came back to the top, so time will tell


It's my sincere hope that McLaren can rebound from the severe damage Honda has done to that team. As you said, they have come back from other engines that were miserable so it's quite possible they can do it again. Let's hope!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 5:13 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
Lotus49 wrote:

TL/DR. It's a ****** nightmare decision whatever way you cut it with no guarantees anywhere in sight that whatever you do it won't end up blowing up in your face. I don't envy Zak and McLaren one bit.


You got that right. There are no guarantees for sure. You have to make decisions based on the best data available. That data says that Honda will continue to be a feckless team, unable to improve. Here we have a team that refuses multiple attempts for others to help them. A team that makes bizarre decisions that only hurt McLaren (no engine updates because a penalty will be imposed. WTF??) A team that has shown nothing but regression after 3 years of R & D.

We all assume Mercedes is the engine McLaren will get. They have won with Mercedes before and there's no reason that can't happen again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Thu Jun 15, 2017 6:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 2760
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lotus49 wrote:

TL/DR. It's a ****** nightmare decision whatever way you cut it with no guarantees anywhere in sight that whatever you do it won't end up blowing up in your face. I don't envy Zak and McLaren one bit.


You got that right. There are no guarantees for sure. You have to make decisions based on the best data available. That data says that Honda will continue to be a feckless team, unable to improve. Here we have a team that refuses multiple attempts for others to help them. A team that makes bizarre decisions that only hurt McLaren (no engine updates because a penalty will be imposed. WTF??) A team that has shown nothing but regression after 3 years of R & D.

We all assume Mercedes is the engine McLaren will get. They have won with Mercedes before and there's no reason that can't happen again.


For the next three seasons I agree, I don't think there will be big developments or re-packaging of the Mercedes unit so being able to win now as a customer shouldn't be an issue.

But they're back in the same boat as 2013 for 2021 again. Then there will be re-packaging, some of which last minute with no concern if it effects someone else's car design, there will be regular and good size updates etc... Basically all the things they wanted to avoid.

It'll be interesting to see what they try to do in a couple of years if they have split, whether they try and get another engine partner or accept those disadvantages.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 5:01 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2016 9:40 pm
Posts: 46
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36689.html

Could the fact that since de la rosa left the team a lot of the engineers have since moved on? Could the lack of continuity at McLaren also be somewhat of a hindersnce? Whilst I accept a lot of the reason why mclaren are not competitive does lie at the feet of the Honda engine, the mclaren chassis/engineering department could always be stronger?

On a side note to this does anyone know whom de la rosa is talking about there from a technical point of view? I appreciate some of the big names have moved on recently in Ron, Martin Whitmarsh, Paddy Lowe, Phil Prew.....but these 5 don't make up the high % he refers too? As well as this do we know of any significant incomings to McLaren other than Peter Prodromou?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 6:47 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jun 07, 2003 11:31 am
Posts: 1440
ScottR267 wrote:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36689.html

Could the fact that since de la rosa left the team a lot of the engineers have since moved on? Could the lack of continuity at McLaren also be somewhat of a hindersnce? Whilst I accept a lot of the reason why mclaren are not competitive does lie at the feet of the Honda engine, the mclaren chassis/engineering department could always be stronger?

On a side note to this does anyone know whom de la rosa is talking about there from a technical point of view? I appreciate some of the big names have moved on recently in Ron, Martin Whitmarsh, Paddy Lowe, Phil Prew.....but these 5 don't make up the high % he refers too? As well as this do we know of any significant incomings to McLaren other than Peter Prodromou?


It is indeed true that the only big name to join McLaren in a long time is Poumoudro. The rest have only left. I won't count Ron Dennis and Whitmarsh among them since they are just management (and both of them utter failures when they left).


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 7:03 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7123
ScottR267 wrote:
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns36689.html

Could the fact that since de la rosa left the team a lot of the engineers have since moved on? Could the lack of continuity at McLaren also be somewhat of a hindersnce? Whilst I accept a lot of the reason why mclaren are not competitive does lie at the feet of the Honda engine, the mclaren chassis/engineering department could always be stronger?

On a side note to this does anyone know whom de la rosa is talking about there from a technical point of view? I appreciate some of the big names have moved on recently in Ron, Martin Whitmarsh, Paddy Lowe, Phil Prew.....but these 5 don't make up the high % he refers too? As well as this do we know of any significant incomings to McLaren other than Peter Prodromou?


It could also be linked to Mclaren once being a racing team with some business on the side, now being a small slice of that whole, not the major focus for everyone.

Similar happened to Williams when they had al the spin-offs and they have not really recovered.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Fri Jun 16, 2017 9:24 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 2760
There's been engineers from Merc,Ferrari and RB brought in as well, between Woking and MK anyway. No big names other than Prod as Loic Serra's signing was contested by Merc and I think that's still to be resolved but not sure.

Without replacing Prod,Goss or Morris you're not likely to see big names really as there's not any spots open and it's not really that important to be honest. Macca have far more "big names" than Ferrari and they've done not bad.

Maybe not far more thinking about it. Binnoto(sp)-Prod, Clear-Morris,Goss-Resta And I'm out of names now off the top of my head so similar rather than far more lol.

Anyway point being every Ferrari fan I know was bricking it last year when Sergio had the mini clear out after Allison left with De Beer and someone else who's name escapes me and then put an engine guy in charge(Binnoto) but look how that turned out.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat Jun 17, 2017 9:49 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 2760
One thing I liked the sound of and has been mooted in a few places but I kinda doubt the likelihood is a suspension of the Honda deal rather than a termination.

Honda can keep the 100m and put it towards the engine, they can still work with McLaren behind the scenes on transmission for Sauber, they can get on away from the limelight with Sauber and sort their issues out under much less pressure while McLaren pick up a Mercedes unit for 1 or 2 seasons keeping Alonso and any star staff/sponsors happy and then they can resume the partnership when the PU is up to scratch or for 2021 and the new regs.

I'd love that, that's my ideal scenario but I get that it sounds very unlikely. One of the big problems is that it puts Mercedes in a tricky position of trying to keep their ip hidden again from McLaren/Honda engineers so may end up being a bit of a 2014 re-run which defeats the point somewhat.

If the suspension lasted until the next regs that wouldn't be a problem though but three years sounds a bit of a stretch to put it on hold.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:48 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 186
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:11 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Oct 31, 2007 11:51 am
Posts: 3997
paul_gmb wrote:
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.

I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!

_________________
The end is near


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:45 am 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
Lt. Drebin wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.

I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!


Nothing to lose? That's not true. What if Williams fails to score a single point next year, just like McLaren this year? I'd say they have plenty to lose.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 12:34 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 10957
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.

I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!


Nothing to lose? That's not true. What if Williams fails to score a single point next year, just like McLaren this year? I'd say they have plenty to lose.


If that happens what have Williams lost?

If they have aspirations of becoming a serious player again then the works Honda deal is fantastic for them. If they are just happy surviving and relying on pay drivers then they can just keep ticking over like they are now.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:44 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:42 am
Posts: 875
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.

I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!


Nothing to lose? That's not true. What if Williams fails to score a single point next year, just like McLaren this year? I'd say they have plenty to lose.


Well they just scraping points now with a merc PU, so they must have serious chasis issues. I dont know how the prize money works but i am sure honda's money can go some way to make up for the points they currently making. The game changer for williams will be bespoke PU for chasis design. Especially for Lowes ambitions. Fact is the current situation will be tempting for a lot of teams to pick up the Honda/Mclaren pieces. I see even RBR sacrificing STR for 2018 to develop Honda to be works RBR in 2019. Honda should get it right, its a matter of time that mclaren does not have. Just look at renault woes, they based in UK, they have "F1 culture" but also failed to bring upgrades. Which brings it down to intense RND before you get a perfectly balanced PU. Renault issues are only masked by Honda being worse currently but that can change very quickly. I am sure honda will get alot of deals on the table. Poor mclaren, damned if they do and damned if they dont.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:58 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:22 pm
Posts: 7123
Honda to Williams, good for Williams deathblow to Mclaren. Provided they either develop Strol and decide to keep Massa for 3 years, or do a driver deal they will be up there taking lots of points off Mclaren at very best/worst.

Good drivers and a sorted car and they have 4th place without too much trouble, fight for 3rd or 2nd. Mclaren somewhere behind them even with a customer Merc engine.

A Williams with good drivers (although there is little wrong with Massa) a works engine and the money to bring in engineers and they will be up there. It may take 3 years, but they will not go under while looking for funds in that time, and they can get the drivers sorted too.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:12 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Mar 16, 2013 5:11 am
Posts: 240
Location: Southampton, UK
It's interesting because the general feeling seems to be that Honda will get it right sooner or later, but what if they don't? I mean they have had 3 years and haven't been able to build an engine that is either reliable or fast.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:39 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.

I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!


Nothing to lose? That's not true. What if Williams fails to score a single point next year, just like McLaren this year? I'd say they have plenty to lose.


If that happens what have Williams lost?

If they have aspirations of becoming a serious player again then the works Honda deal is fantastic for them. If they are just happy surviving and relying on pay drivers then they can just keep ticking over like they are now.


You think there are no consequences to finishing dead last? I think that there are. First, sponsors arent too keen on putting their name on a dead last car. F1 prize money is allotted based on points finish. Coming in dead last will cost Williams money from both sponsors and prize money.

There is nothing fantastic about a Honda deal except what it can do to the imagination. There are no indications, none whatsoever, that Honda have a clue on how to build F1 engines in today's world.

How many engine builders have come and gone with nothing to show for it in the past? Answer: A lot. Honda is just the latest team to come to F1 and accomplish nothing.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:40 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
Grizzly B wrote:
It's interesting because the general feeling seems to be that Honda will get it right sooner or later, but what if they don't? I mean they have had 3 years and haven't been able to build an engine that is either reliable or fast.


Or economical with fuel. Honda has pretty much failed at every metric one can measure with their engine. It's been an unmitigated disaster of epic proportions.

I'd rather Williams sink under the dead weight of the Honda engine rather than McLaren.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:41 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
moby wrote:
Honda to Williams, good for Williams deathblow to Mclaren


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 2:53 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2012 4:13 pm
Posts: 10957
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
paul_gmb wrote:
i know that only pf1 is reporting, but it seems williams are considering a honda deal.

that is brilliant !!! if macca does not want a factory partner, free engines and a couple of mil, there are others waiting.

I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!


Nothing to lose? That's not true. What if Williams fails to score a single point next year, just like McLaren this year? I'd say they have plenty to lose.


If that happens what have Williams lost?

If they have aspirations of becoming a serious player again then the works Honda deal is fantastic for them. If they are just happy surviving and relying on pay drivers then they can just keep ticking over like they are now.


You think there are no consequences to finishing dead last? I think that there are. First, sponsors arent too keen on putting their name on a dead last car. F1 prize money is allotted based on points finish. Coming in dead last will cost Williams money from both sponsors and prize money.

There is nothing fantastic about a Honda deal except what it can do to the imagination. There are no indications, none whatsoever, that Honda have a clue on how to build F1 engines in today's world.

How many engine builders have come and gone with nothing to show for it in the past? Answer: A lot. Honda is just the latest team to come to F1 and accomplish nothing.


Williams would have more publicity as a works team finishing last but with ambitions to be champions than they do now as midfield runners with ambitions to survive.

Anything lost in prize money would be far more than covered by the amount Honda would put.

It comes down to if Williams want to be a midfield team surviving or a team with a works engine deal trying to win titles again.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:06 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
mikeyg123 wrote:
Williams would have more publicity as a works team finishing last but with ambitions to be champions than they do now as midfield runners with ambitions to survive.

Anything lost in prize money would be far more than covered by the amount Honda would put.

It comes down to if Williams want to be a midfield team surviving or a team with a works engine deal trying to win titles again.


Yes, they would have publicity as a works team coming in dead last. They'd have publicity for being the idiots going to Honda when there was 3 years of public data showing how feckless Honda's engineering had become. It would be horrible, without a shred of anything positive. Sitting in the stands at the Indy 500 last month I did not have to listen hard to overhear several people mention how awful a team Honda was. Alonso fans all over have a special disdain at how pathetic the Honda engine is. Perhaps Williams fans dont care much so it won't matter. I havent care much about Williams in a looooong time. I was a fan of Williams BMW. That was a marriage I was certain would produce some championships. While that didnt work out, at least no one embarrassed themselves the way Honda has done so.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 3:17 pm 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 19215
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Herb Tarlik wrote:
Lt. Drebin wrote:
I love the idea. Wiliams will become the "factory" team for Honda perhaps along the Sauber, and get all the benefit from hard work. They have nothing to loose, they don't seem to be candidates for podium, since at least three teams with 6 drivers, are faster than them. So, grab the chance! Super!


Nothing to lose? That's not true. What if Williams fails to score a single point next year, just like McLaren this year? I'd say they have plenty to lose.


If that happens what have Williams lost?

If they have aspirations of becoming a serious player again then the works Honda deal is fantastic for them. If they are just happy surviving and relying on pay drivers then they can just keep ticking over like they are now.


You think there are no consequences to finishing dead last? I think that there are. First, sponsors arent too keen on putting their name on a dead last car. F1 prize money is allotted based on points finish. Coming in dead last will cost Williams money from both sponsors and prize money.

There is nothing fantastic about a Honda deal except what it can do to the imagination. There are no indications, none whatsoever, that Honda have a clue on how to build F1 engines in today's world.

How many engine builders have come and gone with nothing to show for it in the past? Answer: A lot. Honda is just the latest team to come to F1 and accomplish nothing.


Williams would have more publicity as a works team finishing last but with ambitions to be champions than they do now as midfield runners with ambitions to survive.

Anything lost in prize money would be far more than covered by the amount Honda would put.

It comes down to if Williams want to be a midfield team surviving or a team with a works engine deal trying to win titles again.

I'd agree it's a good gamble for Williams. The money would give them a sound financial base to work from and even playing the percentages the odds are that Honda must come good at some point. If they manage it, then they will suddenly have the potential to be title challengers, something I'm doubtful will ever happen as a customer.

I'm torn, tbh. I think it's exciting for Williams but I just know that as soon as McLaren and Honda finalise their divorce Honda will find their mojo and McLaren will be left looking at what might have been. I completely understand Mclaren's position but I firmly believe that the best they can possibly be as a (Mercedes) customer is bridesmaid, but never the bride. My heart says stay with Honda but my head understands it's not possible to prop up the back forever


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:51 pm 
Offline

Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2012 11:14 pm
Posts: 2497
I see that many people still believe in Honda. At this point it is beyond comical that anyone would. I repeat: Honda is not going to get anything right in the near future.

I mean, what a real shame for Williams, if the most recent story linking them to a Honda switch is true. Not only they have Lance Stroll in heir driver lineup but now they want Honda engines as well. Sad to see. Williams is officially suicidal. It is clear they are either as confused as Honda or extremely hungry for cash. It's hard for me to see them survive until the next regulations now. They will probably become a backmarker team and will either have to sell off or leave the sport. Really sad news if true imho. I really hope it isn't.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 5:04 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Jan 24, 2017 6:04 pm
Posts: 551
kleefton wrote:
I see that many people still believe in Honda. At this point it is beyond comical that anyone would. I repeat: Honda is not going to get anything right in the near future.

I mean, what a real shame for Williams, if the most recent story linking them to a Honda switch is true. Not only they have Lance Stroll in heir driver lineup but now they want Honda engines as well. Sad to see. Williams is officially suicidal. It is clear they are either as confused as Honda or extremely hungry for cash. It's hard for me to see them survive until the next regulations now. They will probably become a backmarker team and will either have to sell off or leave the sport. Really sad news if true imho. I really hope it isn't.


I agree completely with you. McLaren have a far deeper insight into the catastrophe that is the Honda engine team than the misguided true believers here and they are making a decision that literally has millions of dollars on the line. I am 100% certain that McLaren assessment of Honda is 100% spot on.

Williams is essentially making a hail mary pass going with Honda. And as we know, most hail mary passes are dropped. Few are ever caught.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 6:15 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue May 27, 2008 7:23 pm
Posts: 186
Herb Tarlik wrote:
kleefton wrote:
I see that many people still believe in Honda. At this point it is beyond comical that anyone would. I repeat: Honda is not going to get anything right in the near future.

I mean, what a real shame for Williams, if the most recent story linking them to a Honda switch is true. Not only they have Lance Stroll in heir driver lineup but now they want Honda engines as well. Sad to see. Williams is officially suicidal. It is clear they are either as confused as Honda or extremely hungry for cash. It's hard for me to see them survive until the next regulations now. They will probably become a backmarker team and will either have to sell off or leave the sport. Really sad news if true imho. I really hope it isn't.


I agree completely with you. McLaren have a far deeper insight into the catastrophe that is the Honda engine team than the misguided true believers here and they are making a decision that literally has millions of dollars on the line. I am 100% certain that McLaren assessment of Honda is 100% spot on.

Williams is essentially making a hail mary pass going with Honda. And as we know, most hail mary passes are dropped. Few are ever caught.


i can agree with you, but the formula1 as we know is changing. we are seeing the last years of mad development and insane spendings on tech aspects. F1 is and will be focusing on show and will be cutting budgets sooner rather than later. Liberty doesn't care about V6 L4's, MGU-H etc. They are putting on a show, either you're with them or you're not.

and yes, Honda will get it right sooner or later. you have to understand that failing at something a lot, makes you research a lot, and even if you don't actually deliver a result, the expertise in the process is imense.

it's a bit like the ferrari story. Because ferrari won 00 to 04 and was highly dominant in the schumi era, made other teams around develop tools, habits, workflows that delivered 5-7 years later. I will remind you that the current merc team failed miserably up to 09. The results you see now, are connected with all those years of efforts.


Same with Ferrari, the efforts they made from 2009 onwards, reshuffling personnel and processes, are starting to pay dividends. You don't just get it right overnight.

In this line of business, you don't get miracles, rather you are putting piece by piece and at one point it just explodes ( not the engine :p )


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 8:33 pm 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 26, 2009 12:23 pm
Posts: 206
Assuming McLaren get a decent engine next season, how much damage will 2017 have done to the team? Will morale be so low the engineers can't get the best from the engine? Will the drivers be nervous about wringing the maximum from the engine?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 9:55 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Dec 24, 2009 8:31 am
Posts: 32
It's a good gamble by Williams.
Worst case they won't come last, Sauber will.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:58 pm 
Offline

Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 1:00 pm
Posts: 4295
How many times have Williams changed engine supplier since 2010?
I think they've run everything except Ferrari power, even a year or two with the Cosworth V8, so they seem to be comfortable trying something to see how it works out and bailing if it doesn't.

_________________
{Insert clever sig line here}


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Mon Jun 19, 2017 11:33 pm 
Offline

Joined: Thu Aug 04, 2016 11:42 pm
Posts: 93
is the problem with going with Merc is that, do they really truly get the same equip as the factory works team? and if they did, they get the engines 1-3 races later for the upgrades. So, hypothetically thinking, if Alonso and Hamilton are in a close champ battle, who do you think is going to end up winning the championship? (no way McLaren isn't going to be handicapped in some way). I recognize that in the immediate future it is much better than Honda, but will it ever get them to number 1 or is there a ceiling there?


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:53 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Feb 06, 2012 8:42 am
Posts: 875
rodH wrote:
is the problem with going with Merc is that, do they really truly get the same equip as the factory works team? and if they did, they get the engines 1-3 races later for the upgrades. So, hypothetically thinking, if Alonso and Hamilton are in a close champ battle, who do you think is going to end up winning the championship? (no way McLaren isn't going to be handicapped in some way). I recognize that in the immediate future it is much better than Honda, but will it ever get them to number 1 or is there a ceiling there?


I think they should get the same equipment, as no merc team has really complained of not getting the same equipment. You may be right in that they may not get the upgrades at the same time. But i think the bigger problem when it comes to winning championships and races is figuring out how to best design the chasis around the PU that is optimised for merc chasis.
Ferrari, and Red Bull to some extent have shown that the PU does not need to match Merc PU for raw power to take the fight to merc, PU just needs to be decent and optimised for works chasis.

If Mclaren do get a merc PU next year there is a high probability they will complain about having to adapt the chasis to Merc engine as Ron did complain before.


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:36 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 19215
AravJ wrote:
rodH wrote:
is the problem with going with Merc is that, do they really truly get the same equip as the factory works team? and if they did, they get the engines 1-3 races later for the upgrades. So, hypothetically thinking, if Alonso and Hamilton are in a close champ battle, who do you think is going to end up winning the championship? (no way McLaren isn't going to be handicapped in some way). I recognize that in the immediate future it is much better than Honda, but will it ever get them to number 1 or is there a ceiling there?


I think they should get the same equipment, as no merc team has really complained of not getting the same equipment. You may be right in that they may not get the upgrades at the same time. But i think the bigger problem when it comes to winning championships and races is figuring out how to best design the chasis around the PU that is optimised for merc chasis.
Ferrari, and Red Bull to some extent have shown that the PU does not need to match Merc PU for raw power to take the fight to merc, PU just needs to be decent and optimised for works chasis.

If Mclaren do get a merc PU next year there is a high probability they will complain about having to adapt the chasis to Merc engine as Ron did complain before.

I think they most likely get the same hardware, but seem to remember there was a discussion a while back that customers didn't have access to some of the higher engine modes that Mercedes' own team did. Software can make a significant impact upon performance. They also tend to have to wait in line for upgrades and the Works team get them first


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:41 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8844
Location: Ireland
Herb Tarlik wrote:
mikeyg123 wrote:
Williams would have more publicity as a works team finishing last but with ambitions to be champions than they do now as midfield runners with ambitions to survive.

Anything lost in prize money would be far more than covered by the amount Honda would put.

It comes down to if Williams want to be a midfield team surviving or a team with a works engine deal trying to win titles again.


Yes, they would have publicity as a works team coming in dead last. They'd have publicity for being the idiots going to Honda when there was 3 years of public data showing how feckless Honda's engineering had become. It would be horrible, without a shred of anything positive. Sitting in the stands at the Indy 500 last month I did not have to listen hard to overhear several people mention how awful a team Honda was. Alonso fans all over have a special disdain at how pathetic the Honda engine is. Perhaps Williams fans dont care much so it won't matter. I havent care much about Williams in a looooong time. I was a fan of Williams BMW. That was a marriage I was certain would produce some championships. While that didnt work out, at least no one embarrassed themselves the way Honda has done so.

So being a works team would be bad publicity for Williams but you haven't cared about Williams since they were a works team :?

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:46 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8844
Location: Ireland
Kev627 wrote:
Assuming McLaren get a decent engine next season, how much damage will 2017 have done to the team? Will morale be so low the engineers can't get the best from the engine? Will the drivers be nervous about wringing the maximum from the engine?

There should be no such problems with a Merc engine. A Renault engine might be different though...

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:03 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 2760
http://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/form ... 66565.html

Good article about McLaren's use of the tyres this year. It says they may not have taken part in the 24 tyre tests last year but they were the only team to send a representative to all 24 and got even more info out of Pirelli than was first intended.

-Says no matter the conditions the McLaren can get the tyres into their working range. Repeats the claim they would have matched Bottas time in Canada with a customer unit. McLaren say the deficit is 125bhp while AMuS say more like 90bhp.

- Also mentions that McLaren had a version of the HPC suspension but when Ferrari queried the FIA they quickly started working on an alternative so didn't lose any time unlike Red Bull who thought it would blow over and even brought the HPC to winter testing.



I honestly think they don't have anything to worry about in the technical department, they seem to be on top of just about everything you can think off going by all that.

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Last edited by Lotus49 on Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:29 am, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 9:28 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jul 28, 2013 3:36 pm
Posts: 2760
rodH wrote:
is the problem with going with Merc is that, do they really truly get the same equip as the factory works team? and if they did, they get the engines 1-3 races later for the upgrades. So, hypothetically thinking, if Alonso and Hamilton are in a close champ battle, who do you think is going to end up winning the championship? (no way McLaren isn't going to be handicapped in some way). I recognize that in the immediate future it is much better than Honda, but will it ever get them to number 1 or is there a ceiling there?


Hardware is identical. Questions over Software and Fuel/Lubricants will need to be sorted out in the agreement. There was a rumour Oijeh had secured a "special status" in regards Software at least which would mean they probably wouldn't quite get Mercedes spec but it would be better than Williams for example. Not a big difference in Software anyway but there is in Fuel and Lubricants.

I personally wouldn't bother with the whole thing if I couldn't get Petronas.

Well the engineers in the garage would be from Mercedes and in some teams they need permission to use the higher modes but that could be sorted out with the "special status" agreement and to be honest I can't imagine Alonso takes any notice of the garage and just use the modes anyway, it's not like they can stop him from the garage and I'd doubt it would be included in any deal with a team like McLaren that they could be punished for doing it, it defeats the purpose.

I don't think there will be many big in season upgrades on the PU front from Mercedes anymore so I wouldn't worry about missing out for a few races. This could also be in the agreement, it can be a cost or penalties issue stopping customers and Macca wouldn't care about the cost at least.

They bigger question is why on earth would Mercedes want to be so generous. By all accounts the McLaren car is very good, tyre use is excellent, very high correlation with the wind tunnel/CFD to track on updates and they have a driver excelling in these regulations that suit his style down to the ground.

Pit stops and Strategy are the only non engine parts of the whole operation that don't look competitive so I don't really know why Mercedes would be so accommodating unless it is true they plan on pulling out after 2020 and they want McLaren to be their partner for the new regs which is plausible but still very generous if McLaren get this "special status".

_________________
"Clark came through at the end of the first lap so far ahead that we in the pits were convinced that the rest of the field must have been wiped out in an accident."
-Eddie Dennis, describing the dominance of Jim Clark in the Lotus 49 at Spa 1967


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:07 am 
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Fri Nov 05, 2010 6:33 pm
Posts: 8844
Location: Ireland
Lotus49 wrote:
Well the engineers in the garage would be from Mercedes and in some teams they need permission to use the higher modes but that could be sorted out with the "special status" agreement and to be honest I can't imagine Alonso takes any notice of the garage and just use the modes anyway, it's not like they can stop him from the garage and I'd doubt it would be included in any deal with a team like McLaren that they could be punished for doing it, it defeats the purpose.

Wait, the option to use the a higher mode is there and the customer teams/drivers are just trusted not to use the option?

_________________
I don't rely entirely on God
ImageImage
I rely on Prost



FA#14


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:15 am 
Offline

Joined: Mon Mar 26, 2012 10:39 am
Posts: 19215
Honda bringing a minor upgrade to Baku:

http://www.planetf1.com/news/honda-set-to-deliver-update-in-baku/

Interesting little snippet:

"If you improve the combustion engine, the temperature of the exhaust decreases by being more efficient, which reduces the energy recovered through the turbo and MGU-H, making it necessary to change these parts too," he added.

"The situation is more complicated than people can imagine."


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic

All times are UTC


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Blake, Dash33, F1_Ernie, Google Adsense [Bot], Gumption, lamo, Multi69, SR1, TheBlackFlag, thermal and 1 guest


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group